Missoula News | New West Network

Great video! More of that, please!

Very well done video essay! It's certainly interesting to witness the prominent role that "fear" plays in this issue. It's almost as if the anti-chicken folks believe that the ordinance will unleash Osama Bin Chicken on our fair city.

Wonderful work, Anne and Jonathan! Inventive, informative, and whimsical. A good array of quotes to go with fine visuals (from how many angles can you shoot a chicken?).

I wonder: does the proposed ordinance define a chicken family? Chickens related by blood or who cook together? Something like that? It seems chickens renting single-family houses would be a concern especially in the University neighborhood. Pretty soon, you'll have half a dozen chickens cramming into a single bedroom, getting drunk with roosters late into the night, parking their SUVs on the lawns.

This chicken thing is the biggest waste of time the city council could possibly undertake. Chickens are filthy little creatures that were banned from the city for very good reasons (against the vote of the city cats).

You want chickens - move outta the city. You can have some pigs then too, maybe even a goat if you're really a crazy bad-ass, and then you can really live that hippycrit lifestyle. Yeah, six chickens are really making you self-sufficient.

Please council, we beg you, move on to something that matters, like turning all the roads into bike paths or re-zoning the slants into a big peace sign.

Anne and Jonathan,
This is great stuff! More, more, more. The ollie over the chicken--priceless. It's also interesting to see an older demographic opposing chickens in town while the younger folks want it. Personally, it makes me smile to think that our city council has things like this to deal with as opposed to "bigger" city problems.

Classic work Stumpf (and Anne)!!! I mean it's no "Run, Skye, Run"...but what is? http://youtube.com/watch?v=CZT1k13GhDI

We heard a story on NPR's Morning Edition a few weeks ago, with similar issues arrising in Brooklyn. Who would have thought that the problems would be found in a progressive community like Missoula in a state with a rich history in ranching and agricultural. Soon, everyone (not just the informed) will have to address the issue of where their food comes from. I just hope that the Missoula City Council has the foresight not to cut off the ability of it's tax payers to feed themselves.

Wait till next year when the council sees how much the Hutterites are going to charge to haul those chickens down to the Good Food Store! Gas at $5, Milk at $7 a gallon, chickens out of sight....they'll be running a few head of chickens for themselves, an old milk cow bawling on Higgins, with the street people brawling to see who gets first pull off the teats....and the only thing at the Food Farm will be sewage-fattened tilapia from China's Huai River, don't turn on the lava lamp, those fillets glow under black light!

Let's face it. The chickens are comin! And it ain't gone be just the "hippycrits"
(I bet pendejo still has one of those signs from the mid 90's Milltown rally "Kill the hippies! Save the Dam!") that are ridin wethers, runnin chickens and ropin with clothesline through the streets of the city! It'll be everybody, and it'll be fun.

And you gotta insist on those real chickens, the ones that can run from the cats and the hungry people, not those unsporty white ones GMO'd to produce the giant buttery breasts that make them topple over when they try to move.


Bock! Bock! Bock!

Read Clavell's "King Rat" as to the possibilities of another urban protein source. I can see the ads now, "Tastes like chicken!"

It's worked well in Madison, Wisconsin. Fresh eggs! Yum!
http://www.madcitychickens.com/

wonderful!

Great work! Way to make chicken issues interesting.
In the town where I was raised, you can have any animal as long as it is licensed. I would often see people walking their pet goats and attempting to play fetch with their bovine companions. In the middle of town, near the college campus even, my neighbour had chickens and roosters. There were never any huge problems with it. I can say it was a bit traumatizing when another of my neighbours slaughtered a goat...

Lawdy lawdy - You've been boingboing'd!
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/11/14/urban-chicken-contro.html

Godalmighty, get rid of all of the dogs first and don't even start with chickens.

I don't understand where the whole anti-chicken front comes from. I mean most of eat chicken or eggs, but God forbid we want to keep chickens in our yard. At least I know my eggs come from happy hens that aren't crammed four to a 2'x2' cage, that aren't fed anti-biotics and fed filthy food. At least their beaks are chopped off as chicks to prevent them from pecking each other to death because they are crammed in so tightly. A hen will lay all it's life and can live well into it's teens, yet the eggs from the grocery store come from birds who are only considered good until they 18 months and then tossed out to rot.
Your more likely to catch something from your cat, dog or children then you are your pet chicken. 6 hens is more then sufficient for a family to receive eggs, half a dozen eggs a day.
4800 people can't be wrong!
Woohoo for Backyard Chickens!!!
http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/index.php

Well done! Enjoyable and informative all around.

What about the greatest crime fighter the world has ever known?

http://www.danoday.com/audio/costume.mp3

Go, Missoula! We just got this passed in our city (South Portland, Maine) this summer. http://www.SoPoChickens.com. We had the same nay-sayers, but, happily, we also had a whole lot of support from residents in the city. Finally, the city councilors saw that the community wanted it, and the passed it. We can have 6 hens, no roosters, and a bunch of other restrictions. Yay, chickens!

Oops, wrong URL... it is
http://www.SoPoChickens.org

This seems to be a case of good intentions lacking scientific and agrarian knowledge.

Have to agree chickens are filthy. Unlike cats or dogs, they have no concept of sanitation, or biological capability for it. They poop constantly, on everything, and then sit in it.

They're really not suited to be pets. Children especially shouldn't play with them for example because they're covered in bacteria which grows in the feces and then spreads in the feathers which are prefect for bacterial colonization and impossible to throughly disinfect. And adults shouldn't be handling chickens as pets either.

In 3rd world countries, where they do have chickens in close proximity to urban living, they're a vector for disease.

For example, yard chickens by the millions are periodically culled in the 3rd world, due to disease. It's becoming increasingly common as the proximity of people to chickens increases the number of diseases which can leap from one to the other, adapting to the chicken and human environment.

If people really want to control their food sources and support the environment, they should form collective coops in a central location, appropriate to raising chickens. If they just want pets, get an animal suited to being a pet.

Chickens are very intelligent creatures. I used to have one that was trained to come in through the dog-door, pooped on a newspaper in the bathroom and would jump in your lap. This is pretty simple. Chickens are intelligent AND delicious. As for being self-sufficient, eggs are wonderful, you get them most daily, and in the end you have a tasty meal. So to take it as far as to say that chickens belong in "rural" societies only is ridiculous. They are just as capable as a dog, you won't get slandered for eating your pet like you would a dog and you definitely don't get the fleas, the smell or the slobber all over the house. Chickens are only "messy" when they are outside. Their poop only stinks when it is dried and time has taken its toll.

PRO CHICKEN!

Wasn't it the Lovin' Spoonful that had a song that went something like:

Hot town, chickens in the city
Back of my neck getting dirty and gritty
Been down, isn't it a pity
Doesn't seem to be a rooster in the city

All around, people looking half dead
Walking on the sidewalk pushin' a moped

But at night it's a different world
Go out and find a girl
Come-on come-on and dance all night
Despite the clucking it'll be alright

And babe, don't you know it's a pity
That the days can't be like the nights
Chickens, in the city
Chickens, in the city

I think there is a major misconception that many anti-chicken folks have. The way they talk about chickens in the city limits, they make it sound as if the minute the ordinance is passed everyone who is pro-chicken is going to go out and get chickens. This is a ridiculous notion. I think that there will be some new chicken owners and those of us who already own chickens will feel relieved that our hens won't be confiscated.

I think the naysayers are making claims about things they aren't educated about. I own 6 hens and they are not noisy and they do not smell. My dog makes a bigger mess and smells worse than my chickens. Please, don't make false claims, get all the facts first.

Many naysayers tend to cherry pick their facts. An anti-chicken Missoulian made some statements at the public comment period about how the CDC says that households with small children should not have chickens. This is true. However, she left out the part that came in the next paragraph that states that if a household with small children does have or does begin raising chickens they should take the following precautions: monitor your kids around chickens, make your kids wash their hands, and wash your own hands after handling chickens, etc.

What this all boils down to is fear of what people don't fully understand.

Here are the links to the CDC site:
Keeping small flocks:
http://www.cdc.gov/healthypets/pdf/intown_flocks.pdf

Concerned about avian flu in the United States, read this:
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/avian/gen-info/qa.htm

I couldn't find anything on the CDC site linking chickens to the spread of west nile, there is mention of using chickens (and horses) as sentinel animals to help detect WN before it reaches humans.

When I see you flo tin' down the gutter
I'll give you uh bottle uh wine
Put me on the white hook
Back in the fat rack
Shad rack ee shack
The sumptin' hoop the sumptin' hoop
The blimp the blimp
The drazy hoops the drazy hoops
They're camp they're camp

This article was forwarded to me, and it was fascinating! We have hens, and like them because: 1. They convert food scraps into fertilizer and eggs. 2. You can eat them. 3. They are gentle, quiet, and affordable. We've had them for years, and have no problems with the neighbors, as long as we keep them in our yard. Good luck!

...also, we had chickens while the kids were small, and they seem to have better than average immune systems. I never knew about the CDC's advice to not have chickens around small children, but anecdotally, things have worked out fine for mine.

Hope you get your ordinance allowing chickens passed. Six hens? Wow! In Portland we only get three without applying for a special permit.

If there is more discussion about the bill some pro-chicken people should point out that chickens are quieter than barking dogs and their shit doesn't stink as bad either. Most everybody knows dogs are tolerable.

performance.

raising your own chickens is a good, smart idea. It's about food security, sustainability, and community. Here's a video where we ate a couple of our chickens and made a party out of it.
http://ryanishungry.com/2007/10/16/stone-soup-we-know-where-our-food-comes-from/

skateboarding over chickens classic! the disclaimer over whether any animals were harmed in filming? LOL.

Brilliant! And if NYC can do it, why not Missoula? Suggested lobbying strategy: Serve fresh eggs from local chickens (far superior to the tasteless variety at the grocery store) to the chicken-haters - that will win them over!

Fine, if you chickycrits get to keep chickens, then I want some hogs. They convert food scraps to fertilizer and you can eat them as well, so it's win-win. And it's fair, right? I don't want to keep six though, just two, so they have a buddy to roll around in their own whatever with.

My neighbor wants an emu because of the same reasons. He only wants one. He promises to keep the beak and claws filed. I wonder if it'll get along with the pork? Doesn't matter, because it's only fair that he get it if you get chickens and I get hogs.

My brother wants two goats for some milk and cheese. He also wants to name it Moe and let it roam around to "mow" the lawn. You have to get your own to mow your lawn, shouldn't be a problem for you though, since we're letting in the livestock.

My rally sign from the 90's says "Hippys are full of shit. Remove the dam, restore the river."

Awesome video. All the thoughtful comments are even more encouraging--a community fighting for its right to live sustainably.

As we discuss chickens in terms of our city policy, I think it’s vital that we all have a clear understanding of the actual amendment in front of City Council. You can find that amendment here: ftp://www.ci.missoula.mt.us/Packets/Council/2007/2007-08-06/ChickenOrdinance.pdf. Page 3 shows the proposed amended language (it’s underlined).

Here’s the gist of it:
-No roosters. (Eliminates problems with noise.)
-Maximum of 6 hens. (Reduces high concentrations of manure and smell.)
-Predator-proof housing. (We don’t want to be a nuisance to our wild neighbors either.)
-Chicken house must kept clean and be at least 20 feet from a neighboring dwelling. (Buffer zone.)
-Chickens must be fenced and have access to outdoor enclosure. (Encourages adequate space for the ladies while keeping them out of your neighbor’s flower beds and harm’s way.)

You’ll find a few more stipulations in the amendment, but hopefully that gives you the sense that it is not a haphazard approach to bringing food production into our urban yards. Lots of cities much larger and denser than Missoula have been able to successfully accept chickens under similar guidelines. We have studied those cities thoroughly and based the proposed amendment on those lessons. Really, you’d have to be incredibly neglectful to follow the hen-chicken amendment and still create a nuisance to you neighbors.

Lastly, I’d like to point out that urban hen chickens are way less contentious among Missoulians than within the City Council. 392 Missoulians participated in the City Talk on-line survey. 77.6% support legalizing chickens, even though 49.1% said they were not interested in keeping chickens themselves. If you are in the 22.4% who oppose my freedom to have 6 hens, please go beyond empty conjectures and assumptions. I truly would love to know how the proposed amendment would create specific problems. We’re all guilty of holding uninformed assumptions, but please dig a little deeper into the details.

This is beginning to sound a little Orwellian and Hooverian. Missoula has essentially legalized pot and now chickens. This Animal Farm will have a chicken in every pot field behind an enclosure that resembles Stalag 17.

"This is beginning to sound a little Orwellian and Hooverian."

How is increasing personal freedom "Orweillian"?

Ok how is a video of a chicken running through Missoula's streets appropriate?
All this shows is a reason that Missoula should not have chickens.

Honestly all I could think of is PETA's reaction if the adoring skateboarder would have crashed into the chicken killing it!(DARN)

Paul, you try to bring up good points but I think you are probably the same Paul Hubbard that tries to befriend Missoula Citizens to get "inside information" for the city council aren't you? (Check out the Missoulian emails from the council members!)
Perhaps we could "Dig up more information" on you!

UNINFORMED ASSUMPTIONS - Google Baby! Take our assumptions and google them. Let's see CDC, WHO, USDA are you aware that when you say the avian flu won't come here it makes you look really stupid! Our state officials had to come up with a plan on how to handle the AVIAN FLU when it arrives?
It is a huge document that has be followed by all of the health officials in Montana. More info at: http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/pandemicflu/

Follow this Link to look at Montana's outline:
http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/states/montana.html

HMMM... a government website called Avianflu.gov "HOUSTON we may have found something"

Try using GOOGLE to look up "CROWING HENS" it is a scientific fact that a group of 3 or more hens will cause the "dominant hen" to take over aggressive rooster behavior going as far as shrinking ovaries, they stop producing eggs and they will CROW! There is an old saying about a hen crowing it supposedly means death. I say death to the hen. ALSO try googling under the CDC especially the cause of the 1918 Pandemic/Spanish flu. This started along with most of our flu's with chicken to human contact. So Paul perhaps if you googled these "UNIFORMED ASSUMPTIONS" you, yourself, could become informed! Let's look at those stats. Especially since Honululu and Florida pay over $50k per year/ county to catch and destroy feral chickens that were a result of their urban chicken laws. Also take a look at Madison WI city codes on "PEST AND RAT CONTROL" my, my an ordinance to kill rats that are attracted to feed. Let's move on Missoula! Besides cows produce way more food and milk than a group of chickens! I think PIGS would be great as well.

"MOO 've over chickens were bringing home the bacon now" (FUTURE EMAIL HOME FROM CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS!)

To the last commenter who didn't leave a name.
Yes, Googling is good advice, but you should also read up from people's real experiences with chickens. Or if you live in Missoula, then go visit some of these neighborhood coops. This would be taking your own advice about being well-informed.

We live in suburbia and have about 30 hens.
Why would we have roosters that crow since we simply buy chicks for $1.50 each? So noise is a non-issue.

Yes, any animals you raise demand responsibility to keep the area clean. This is true for dogs and cats as well. Some people have 20 cats that run around the neighborhood. Communities have logical ways to deal with irresponsible people.

I agree that you should think about raising goats or pigs if you have at least .5 acres of land. You should definitely should be growing a large garden and have a huge compost pile so you can generate your own soil.

In the end, this discussion is a great one and glad to see it happening. Missoula needs to decide if they want to decentralize food production and encourage food security. Or rely on large chain stores to truck in your food from hundreds/thousands of miles away.

Whatever inconvenience you think will come from neighbors growing their own food will be nothing if those trucks stop magically rolling into town with your packaged food.

Jay Dedman
ryanishungry.com

hey, Sustain Yourself...

I did Google "crowing hens" and found some anecdotal reports, superstition tied to whistling women and crowing hens. Did not see _anything_ that was as strong as a scientific fact that a group of three or more hens will cause what you stated.

Have any direct links?

Holotone, what personal freedom is there for the chickens that are held captive for the amusement and sustenance of the ruling class? Sounds right out of the ghoulish Hansel and Grettel.

@Craig Moore:

I was referring more to your "Missoula has essentially legalized pot" than to the chickens, though the comment applies to both. Keep in mind, what I am about to say comes from a 10+ year vegan: Chickens are going to be raised by humans for the entirety of time - Would you rather it was by little old Mrs. Cleveland down the road or yet another abusive, profit-driven mega-agri-corp?

Raising chickens in Missoula's cannibus plots for comsuption by meat eating cannibals is no less abusive don't you think? Sorta makes those responsible cannibusbals. Join CLASS!

Chicken Liberators Against Social Stigma.

I had no idea that your town was making such a big deal of it. Less than a dozen chickens are really quiet, pretty clean, and cause no problems. Maybe if you had more you'd have sanitation issues. If you had roosters you'd be in trouble with noise. But I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

We kept 4 chickens in Baltimore City and our neighbors loved them- the neighborhood kids came to play with them when we let them forage in our fenced in yard. Neighborhood adults claimed they never ever heard the chickens. I believe it! And there is no smell issue with a few chickens- you take their waste out of their coop and it's all mixed with straw or wood chips or whatever you used for bedding. So it looks like dirt and goes right into the compost bin with leaves! No smell, I promise.

We now have 6 chickens in the suburbs and even the neighborhood dogs got used to them after a few months and don't bark at them. No neighborly complaints.

I agree that you should let people choose their pets and deal with individual issues as they come up. The idea of keeping city life different from country life is outdated.

Crowing Hens
Most information and in the United States are from places like the co-op and other websites that sell chicks and have chat rooms so that they can discuss problems etc. The Co-op website goes into detail about when this happens. Most of the information is studies from the UK and University professors and you can buy the studies. It is called Hen to Rooster transformation and (ANYTHING FOR A BUCK I AM SURE) some other websites are:
http://www.blpbooks.co.uk/articles/cock_crowing/cock_crowing_noise.php
http://www2.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/november1999/posts/topic4200.shtm
http://www.usatoday.com/advertising/orbitz/orbitz-window-unldPop.htm


I think also for all of those commenting that do not live in our community and see what our joke of a council is trying to succeed with and how close these coops are to homes and how close new construction homes are going to be built with the growth you should come visit and picture yourself living here with chickens getting out of yards before you make up your mind for us. My neighbors are from another country and they already have chickens (all hens) that fight all night long and then once the hens are established they butcher and get more feeding the innards to the other chickens and these are right below my BEDROOM window!. Chicken innards on a 90 degree day let me tell you it smells like roses! The new ordinance is very vague on how the city will handle this. Also I have called and reported them on a number of occassions but no one ever comes!

I grew up with a nextdoor neighbor in city limits (8 houses per acre), who had about 6 chickens. Never a problem. No smell, the clucking was only occasional, and I found it to be rather soothing even. Not to mention the free eggs he would occasionally share with us!

Beat the hell outta the neighbor with on the other side with 6 dogs! The dogs were the problem! They were noisy and damn did they stink!

Bloomington IN permits 5 hens, and there are injunctions against slaughtering, and requirements for complete containment, and specific distances must be established between the coop and habitable houses. If the poster named "Sustain yourself..." is concerned about these problems, then why not get involved with your City Council during the ordinance discussion stage and make an effort to ameliorate the situation?
js

Jay,
If Missoula's City Council and Animal Control would take care of the existing "pet" issue with Dogs and Cats like you mentioned perhaps some of us in Missoula would not be so against 1 or 2 chickens in the CENTER of town not SUBURBIA but until you live here where we have 2 Animal Control officers and a number of immigrants and college kids that think this is "So Cool" and the next best thing until they go home for the summer or the kids move off and the immigrants don't care for the pets than I suggest you realize your neighborhood is different than ours. I am glad your Animal Control is not currently understaffed and overwhelmed such as ours but Missoula does not currently have an effective way of handling anything and until they do I do not think we should introduce any more problems!

This is what Missoula chickens would have to look forward to: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jlJRraEukEwsPb4WU5LoKf8LDzMAD8STKGM81

>>>>>>>>>
Pet Massacres Carried Out in Puerto Rico
By YAISHA VARGAS and ANDREW O. SELSKY – 1 day ago

TRUJILLO ALTO, Puerto Rico (AP) — Back roads, gorges and garbage dumps on this tropical island are littered with the decaying carcasses of dogs and cats. An Associated Press investigation reveals why: possibly thousands of unwanted animals have been tossed off bridges, buried alive and otherwise inhumanely disposed of by taxpayer-financed animal control programs.

Witnesses who spoke with the AP said that, despite pledges to deliver adoptable strays to shelters and humanely euthanize the rest, the island's leading private animal control companies generally did neither.

News that live animals had been thrown to their deaths from a bridge reached the public last month when Animal Control Solutions, a government contractor, was accused of inhumanely killing some 80 dogs and cats seized from three housing projects in the town of Barceloneta. A half dozen survived the fall of at least 50 feet.

The AP probe, which included visits to two sites where animals were slaughtered, found the inhumane killings were far more extensive than that one incident. The AP saw and was told about a scale and brutality far beyond even what animal welfare activists suspected, stretching over the last eight years.
<<<<<<<<<

Stand up for the ethical treatment of chickens by joining the Chicken Liberators Against Social Stigma amd bring CLASS to Missoula.

People made fun of everyone at our council meeting regarding 1 comment about chicken cannibalism (that was not the point the speaker was making) and how that never happens. Interesting study attached please view it re: Chicken Cannibalism! It does happen and people with kids interested in raising chickens might want to consider it.

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/poultry/factsheets/32.html

You are right, "sustain yourself", that I do not live in your town, but I imagine it can't be much different than most other US urban areas. (my "suburb" has almost a million people in it)
I find it strange to read your comments about "immigrants". What do they have to do with whether or not hens are noisy?

Let's start basing this discussion on facts.
I just posted a video showing our hens.
http://tinyurl.com/2mmw56

I'd love to see photos or video posted that documents such noise and commotion that I keep hearing about. If your town is having this much trouble with animals, maybe you should ban all beasts.

In the end, this argument is really about whether or not you want to empower people to grow their own food, or rely on commercialized food to be trucked in for all your needs.

I have never posted a compliant about noisy hens. My complaint is people DO NOT TAKE CARE OF THEIR ANIMALS! My statement about Hens Crowing is to prove to Mr. Hubbard that he is not a "Chicken know it all" and that he needs to do a little research before discounting people's comments as nonsense. I have never heard a chicken hen crow nor do I care too. I suppose if I ever felt the need I could go 2 miles to the "county" and find chickens to listen to. I personally enjoy Turkey hunting in our great area and think more people should take that up but I am not pushing anybody to see things my way on that issue. We live in a college town where college students (and other irresponsible people) get these "pets" and are so happy then they leave for the summer or get tired of dealing with the mess made by animals, and guess what !?! We have a homless pet problem. My problem with these "immigrants" that live here is that they do NOT CLEAN their property, pets etc.. and our city has NO RECOURSE for this. Our city is not ready to add chickens until they have a better handle on the existing issues. There are several other problems with this. Your town is much larger than ours and is probably better organized. I wish I could say the same.
The current law of "NO CHICKENS" is only currently enforced if their is a "problem" or "complaint" and then it is only loosely enforced at best. Several people have chickens and have had chickens and no one cares but if this ordinance passes the inconsiderate people that do not care for their pets will not be penalized at all. The ordinance as outlined above is ALL that the proposed ordinance states very easy to see through it.
As far as empowering people to grow their own food I believe that in the city have a garden, in the suburbs where you have .5 acre have chickens, further out 1 acre have a damn cow or some pigs, the more land the more pets. If you live in the city make a friend that has chickens in the county and trade food from your garden. That to me is a friendly way to handle this problem. In addition our town has a wonderful farmers market purchase your eggs their from people who have chickens legally in the county. We also have community gardens perhaps those interested would be better suited to rent land and have chickens in the county. There are other better suited ways around 6 chickens that might produce a dozen eggs a week and 6 chicken dinners a month.

I would also like to say that our CURRENT ORDINANCE does not limit the number of chickens a person can have if they own an acre as a matter of fact to my knowledge I think you could have a damn PIG or COW if you own an acre or have had chickens consistently since prior to 1985.

Unbelievable! Only people with enough room will bother keeping chickens, I live in Seattle WA and have three chickens. They are delightful and no more disease prone than any other bird flying around your neighborhood. The manure is quickly composted and great for gardens and flower beds. I get a dozen delicious eggs per week from my three girls, and it's a piece of cake to maintain them once the pen is built. They are not that loud AT ALL, and the sounds they do make are really pleasant. The chicken haters need to get a life and leave their neighbors alone!

"sustain yourself", you are making blanket statements about every chicken owner! You are again cherry picking your information and getting information from dubious sources. I own 6 hens and not a one of them crows.

I find it funny that you say I am "cherry picking" my information when I have given links to my information.
Perhaps you could contact the sites that sell baby chicks like the co-op and see what information you can find out.
As I told Jay I have not said anything about the birds being noisy other than the one fact that was initially pointed out to me by a local person that HAS chickens and TAKES care of HER chickens. She has had this happen to her so I looked into it.
I have looked at every link posted there are great arguments on both sides but look around our community and can you honestly say we do not already have an existing problem with at large animals, The lady in the video had a chicken "half eaten by a dog" so she cooked it and it was delicious. Obviously the dog was at large and I would bet animal control has not found the dog. We need to take care of the existing issues first, if nothing else then tackle introducing chickens.
I also think it is funny that our government is supposed to make sure a MAJORITY of the community wants a law changed right so in all fairness why not vote. We voted on wanting to end the war. Let's vote on this. It only seems fair and then at least all of us will feel like we had a say in it and that we too were taken into consideration. And our city council could then move on to important things that we all know are out there.

Wow what a timely article--my 69 year old husband built a portable chicken house this summer for one of our daughters who lives in a small unnamed town in New Mexico and we are presently in a suburb of Mobile,Alabama building a chicken abode for another small flock--so this issue is all over our country not just in the Western States--

I submit the following thoughts for the Missoula Council to consider before casting their vote:::

A couple of chickens do not make as much noise pollution as the
smallest dog.

Nor do they smell as bad as the dogie doodoo left in my neighbors yard by their very big dog.

And please remember that the eyes of all the chicken owners of America are on you and this important vote.

A few years ago, some of us in Bloomington Indiana who had a few chickens in their backyard got together and formed an interest group which we called CLUCK (Citizens Love Urban Chickens). With the altruistic and focused help of sympathetic members of the City Council and Animal Control, we got the law changed from a complete ban to what is now a relatively conservative and restricted set of permissions. Even as conservative as it was, it passed the City Council by just 1 vote. We did this by defining backyard chickens as pets, rather than livestock, and moving the oversight from Muncipal Zoning to Animal Control (it is shared by both departments now.) Although most of arguments against having backyard chickens are well worn and have nothing to do with reality, there are at least 2 things that should be borne in mind by those who want backyard chickens. First, anytime people bring animals into their environment, you have potential for abuse and filth, the ordinance must address this potential. Second, the people in your town who are opposed to chickens (usually because they don't want to be reminded about the history, importance and emotional value of manual labor) have representatives on the City Council, and these representatives must answer to their constituency. Good luck to those who would like to have chickens. Coming home to my chickens, watching them, collecting their eggs and sharing them with others literally makes my day.
js

I'm another member of CLUCK, in Bloomington, IN. There are two kinds of people: chicken-lovers and chicken-haters, and chicken- haters are convinced that hens in a back yard means filth, squalor, and stench. My own experience is completely different. If you maintain a coop properly, there are no odors in the general area, period. Chicken poop is the greatest thing that can ever be dug into a garden bed. Chickens make far less racket and dung than a typical backyard dog, and weigh less than an average cat. Chicken-haters are so convinced they're right and are so completely prejudiced on the subject, it's like listening to an old-time bigot in the Deep South back in the pre-civil rights days telling you why segregation is a good thing. Bear in mind, over the course of American history, chickens were legal in most cities until the last 50 years or so, when the suburban green-lawn segregationalists upended the old ways left over from the Great Depression and Victory Gardens. Open your mind, take a close look at a cleanly-kept coop of pet hens, and you'll be amazed what rewarding pets they actually make. Long live urban chickens!

I live in Missoula, and I want to have chickens! Had them when we lived in the mountains. We loved the eggs and the care-taking of the chicks. I WANT TO HAVE CHICKENS- openly and legally. I also want to have my pot, openly and legally-

city council- please address these issues!

Can we all just get along?

I think Dale needs some rooster time in the hen house.

No, chickens are not an unimportant issue since just about everyone eats them and their eggs. A quick look at a PETA video on factory farming drives the point home on just how important these birds are and how abused and diseased they become when they are factory farmed. They eggs they produce when they are cared for (without being stuffed into tiny boxes suffering unbelievably during their short tortured lives) are many times more nutritious and tasty, and they make GREAT pets, they are beautiful, comical, and very useful for insect control and fertilizer. So before you go bashing people who like to do things like raise their own chickens for the eggs, and other crazy things like, say, recycle their garbage, and compost their food scraps, take a good look at just how much harm your lifestyle causes to things which you can, apparently, so easily turn your back on.

(Hilarious joke BTW Craig!)
Anyone can check out my georgeous girls on my Myspace page!
http://www.myspace.com/quixotry
Chickens can Save the World!

If Dale were the rooster--

There once was a chicken from Nantucket.
She pushed and strained on a bucket.
When the rooster came to cluck
She said "no way my buck"
So the rooster left squawking "Ah, cluck it."

"sustain yourself"- I think there is value in what you are saying about voting. However, the reason we have a city council is so we don't have to swamp voters with issues every time they come up. Instead, we vote for council representatives to vote on these issues that arise in our city. I think the city of Missoula had the opportunity to vote on this issue and the citizens voted to put more progressive city council in place. The citizens (and a majority in fact) voted for representatives that are more open-minded about the issue of chickens in the city. In fact, I think I read somewhere that this election cycle had the highest voter turnout ever for city council! The majority has spoken.

Also, to address your concern about hens turning into roosters, roosters aren't allowed so if this did happen then the animal would have to be removed. If you actually read the ordinance, you would have read about this as well as the part that talks about how many hens are allowed. As long as the hens enclosure is at least 25 feet away from any dwelling, the maximum amount of chickens allowed is 6 per dwelling in city limits; even if your property is 1 full acre, only six hens per dwelling. I also believe there is a standard blanket rule that states that any subdivision covenant trumps city rules, so if there is concern about chickens in new developments, if there is a section in the covenant that bans chicken, sorry for those owners who want chickens.

To address your concern about students; the issue here is not with students but with the landlords. Only a property owner has the right to allow chickens on their property. If the landlord says no, too bad for the students, maybe they can convince their landlord to let them have a dog instead.

Ahh so C'Man apparently you forget to read previous posts except to argue so let me refresh you dear memory! If you don't believe my posts visit the cities website and look at the ordinance. Your facts are very wrong and perhaps if you attended some of the meetings, and looked at the ordinance before hand I would not have to say you are full of &^*! Even Paul Hubbard (researcher for the committee) stated in the first few posts the ordinance:

(FROM ABOVE PAUL HUBBARD)
As we discuss chickens in terms of our city policy, I think it’s vital that we all have a clear understanding of the actual amendment in front of City Council. You can find that amendment here: ftp://www.ci.missoula.mt.us/Packets/Council/2007/2007-08-06/ChickenOrdinance.pdf. Page 3 shows the proposed amended language (it’s underlined).

Here’s the gist of it:
-No roosters. (Eliminates problems with noise.)
-Maximum of 6 hens. (Reduces high concentrations of manure and smell.)
-Predator-proof housing. (We don’t want to be a nuisance to our wild neighbors either.)
-Chicken house must kept clean and be at least 20 feet from a neighboring dwelling. (Buffer zone.)
-Chickens must be fenced and have access to outdoor enclosure. (Encourages adequate space for the ladies while keeping them out of your neighbor’s flower beds and harm’s way.)

It does not however reduce any rights of the current legal chicken owners in city limits nor does it state ANYTHING about rentals, homeowner associations, covenants etc... not to mention if this passes all current landlords would have to rewrite all rental contracts to exclude chickens as they do not currently say anything about chickens.

As for students how many Mommy and Daddies own the students housing. Get real and deal with the fact that YOU need to read the ordinance as I have and I have SEVERAL TIMES!

The ridiculous ordinance in it's pitiful entirety is on the Missoula Website read it, hate it, whatever, it has more holes than a Montana Elk Decoy!

Ah yes and 1 more thing our city council represents a select group that impress' voters with yummy alcohol and bus rides so I say lets vote and I bet the turnout against chickens is even higher if I am wrong what do you and your self named "chicken lovers" have to loose. By the way I hate that term because I too love chicken DOUBLE FRONT DOWNTOWN is the best in town. WOW wingery is good too!

I was at a sub-committee meetings and if you were to ask the city lawyer, you would hear him say what I just wrote. I know this because I was at a meeting where it came up. Sorry you are disappointed about the outcome of the city council election. I still think the majority has spoken. I have nothing to loose (or lose) either way! I have my chickens and they aren't going anywhere!

I checked out the sites you posted, they don't look very scientific to me but I'll take your word for it. Even though you cherry picked what you said. Here is the what one of your site said:

"Although I’ve never experienced it with any of my own hens, a crowing hen is a fairly well known phenomenon. It is usually caused by hormonal changes. These may be as a result of an infected ovary, or a tumour in the same area. In the case of the former, the infection can often be cleared up with antibiotics, or it may clear of its own accord. With the latter, there is nothing that can be done.

There may be other signs, apart from the crowing, including an enlarged comb and the development of male plumage after the moult. She may also try to mount other hens. If the cause is an infected ovary, and it clears up, she will probably revert to her usual state."

http://www2.abc.net.au/science/k2/stn/november1999/posts/topic4200.shtm
this one is merely a forum, no scientific explanation . . .

http://www.usatoday.com/advertising/orbitz/orbitz-window-unldPop.htm
this one is an ad for orbitz, nothing to do with chickens.

Sorry buddy, you got no game! I'm done trying to convince you because that would be a waste of both of our time, especially since you are trying to plead your case non scientifically grounded, Orbitz ads. Good Luck!

I live in the countryside and LOVE my chickens! But I appreciate Sustains arguments and think they should be looked at. If a town is not well-staffed complaints cannot be looked into in a timely way. If a person is keeping a hen in a 10 X 10 cage, who is going to check in on that?

Also, all for all you suburban and urban chicken farmers, perhaps a cooperative or purchasing from a local farm (or better yet, trading your garden veggies) are ideas worth considering. Chickens like to range. Really like to range. Why not at least consider some of Sustains ideas (ignoring the 'rant' side of it all) and think of the birds? Let the folks who have a few acres raise the birds, let the urban folks grow some veg, trade, talk, work it all out? I know, that sounds soooo hippy and ridiculous. Nevermind!

Sustain, I'm sorry for your pain, and for your bad neighbors. I had neighbors once who didn't clean up after their dogs, and that was nasty-stinky on those hot summer afternoons. So, I talked to them about it, and they started poop scoopin' more often - problem solved. Similarly, my compost got a little funky one summer, and my other neighbor let me know, so I turned it and mulched it and that problem was also solved. If I had chickens, and my neighbors had a problem with it, I would work it out - you know, find a solution that addressed everyone's concerns. It sucks for you that your neighbors don't get it. The cool thing about the amended ordinance is that it would give you recourse for complaint, since your neighbors obviously aren't following the guidelines about coops being "kept clean and at least 20 feet from a neighboring dwelling" - the "buffer zone" described in the amendment.

As for your other concerns: I don’t generally do research on the internet since I’m a scientist and the internet is not usually a reliable source for scientific information (i.e., ANYONE can post ANYTHING on the internet), but I followed your links to see where they led. The site on pandemic flu was interesting (though it took a while to find anything about backyard flocks), and it’s a “.gov” site, so one would like to hope that the information there is credible (though really, the list of lies we’ve been fed by the feds lately would be far too long to detail here). Nonetheless, let’s just assume the site is credible (though I must point out that while I did find a number of government reports and news releases there, I didn’t find any references to scientific research - makes you wonder). After some searching for “domestic chickens” I did find this FAQ here: http://www.pandemicflu.gov/faq/bird/1098.html - which says this:

Q: We have a small flock of chickens. Is it safe to keep them?
A: Yes. In the United States there is no need at present to remove a flock of chickens because of concerns regarding avian influenza. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) monitors potential infection of poultry and poultry products by avian influenza viruses and other infectious disease agents.

So, this should ease your mind regarding concern over backyard flocks and avian flu. While I'd like to ease your mind regarding your other concerns, I’ve taken up enough time and space for now, but I will try to address those in future posts – if I can find the time, that is. I'm just too busy to spend the kind of time that you obviously spend - surfing and chatting and posting - on the web. I have children and animals to tend to, friends and neighbors to visit with, and a full-time job. I’m guessing you have none of these, given the amount of time you must spend on the internet, and that makes me sad for you.

Let's face it, you are in the minority with your views in this community. I sincerely hope you are able to find some peace with your neighbors – actual and virtual – dispense with the anger and fear in your heart, and embrace the possibilities - they are endless, and they are likely to include chickens in Missoula.

bock, bock, coooo

Hey “…have a COW”,

Missoula Animal Control has twice now answered my call COURTEOUSLY and PROFESSIONALLY, and dealt with the problem at hand – in these cases, roaming dogs. After being picked up by animal control, one of these poor pooches - who had been neglected by his alcoholic owner - was adopted by another family; the other dog was spayed, which will keep her from having her THIRD litter! Obviously there are pet owners out there who are dropping the ball, but Missoula animal control is not to blame. Given clear guidelines (i.e., roaming dogs are not allowed in the city) and CITIZAN PARTICIPATION (someone who calls RIGHT AWAY and maybe even catches the offending critter) they are able to effectively address the problems as they occur.

I have to wonder why “no one ever comes” when you call animal control? Maybe it’s because you are rude and abrasive? Have you tried kindness? Create with kindness, not with fear and anger, and maybe you’ll get better results. Blessings.

Occasionally one of my girls will let out a call that is about the same sound and decible as a seagull- it's not like the incessant crowing of a rooster, and they never do it early in the morning. Here in Seattle the limit is three HENS- plenty of eggs for a small family. Raising chickens for meat is a different story. Generally it's the roosters that get eaten, because the eggs from the hens are more valuable. The gardening clubs sponsor urban chicken tours (to different houses where people keep chickens, so people can learn how it's done) and really it's quite a nice aspect of our fair city! I'm hearing a lot of presumptuous hysteria from people who probably have never even seen a small chicken set-up. Anyone who keeps chickens will take the neccessary steps to protect them from dogs, which keeps them contained on their owner's property, and anyway, our leash laws are strictly enforced. Chicken manure dries to dust quickly in the summer, and in the winter the rain washes it into the dirt. The droppings board you put under their perch (they poop at night) I just take out every week or so and turn it into a pile of grass clippings or leaves. It composts faster than any other kind of manure. Sometimes people wind up with four chickens because if one dies, then two replacement chicks get raised together- one chick will be too lonely... and I've never heard of the Chicken Police coming to take away the extra hen! A complaint or two to Animal Control will have the errant rooster on the barbecue grill pretty quickly around here! Really these birds are fun and easy to keep and an attractive addition to the garden landscape. That is why they have been part of civilization for centuries.

Nice work bro and Anne! A stellar piece of journalism that shows both sides of the issues well. Keep it up!

I have some questions for the pro-urban chicken folks. Who's going to support my position that I don't want my neighbor's chicken in my yard, scratching up my landscaping? Or the position that I just don't want a chicken on my property? What course of action should I take If the owner can't keep the chicken on her property? I have talked to them before, and the problem went away for 2 months. Then my yard got tore up again. She puts it away when I get home from work so I know she hasn't forgot about our conversation and I don't like being taken for a fool. Any suggestions?

Jay, sounds like a pain in the butt. I think you did the right thing talking to your neighbor first! Chickens can dig pretty well. My suggestion is as follows:
1) Make sure that it's your neighbor's chicken doing the damage.
2) Remind your neighbor about the conversation you had.
3) Let them know that you are displeased with their chicken in your yard and if it shows up again, you will call animal control.
4) Call animal control
5) If that doesn't work, speak with your neighbor again and let them know that you find it unacceptable that their chicken is raiding your landscaping and if they won't stop it, you will.
6) Attempt to catch the offending fowl (preferably in the act; this can be difficult if you are at work when it happens)
7) Turn the bird into animal control or to you neighbor, your call.
8) Suggest to your neighbor that they need to either reinforce their enclosure (or keep their chickens in it if they are prone to letting them roam).

If you live in Missoula, you have recourse through animal control. For one, chickens are only legal under very limited circumstances. If the new ordinance is passed, there exists a section that gives non-chicken owners the right to call animal control if another person's chickens are being a "nuisance". Your problem sounds like a nuisance to me. According to the Animal control officer here, chickens are pretty easy for them to deal with as they typically stay put (the owner is not capable of leaving the scene with their henhouse and chicken setup as easily as an offending dog owner or cat is). I wish you the best of luck in working this out with your neighbor.

A picture is worth a thousand words when dealing with Animal Control officers. Often without visual proof it's your word against your neighbors and they can't do anything. I learned this the hard way when my neighbors' wolf-dog (illegal but can't prove it's a wolf dog!) almost killed my cat last year. I would definitely catch the chicken and turn it into Animal Control, and let your neighbor deal with trying to get it back!

We just made a video of a new batch of chickens we're raising in our suburban community:
http://ryanishungry.com/2007/12/26/raising-chics-from-scratch/
You can see them grow over a period of three months.
chickens are great of you're responsible about it.

nicely done story - great photography
sad that this is such an issue -
I lived in Santa Cruz Ca in the 90s, a very crowded town. I wanted to have a few hens, so I called zoning and they told me four hens, no roosters. I had asked my neighbors how they felt before I got the hens, and they thought it was fine. I had a nice coop, they didn't roam the yard unless I was keeping an eye on them. they were great egg producers and stress relievers - they made me laugh a lot. we also had some wonderful compost bins going and the chicken coop was cleaned regularly and composted. sawdust/shavings were spread under the coop and helped to keep any smell down.
my entire lot was about 4500 square feet a teeny lot - but plenty of room to share with a few hens

That is the best news item on chickens I have ever seen! I think the "ollie"-ing a chicken move should have its own name, maybe a "hen-pecker." Soon you will see more adventurous kids trying 360 henpeckers. Maybe this is what the old folks are really worried about.

On point, though, we live in Bozeman and have mostly resided in older neighborhoods where the chickens probably never left from the olden days. At our last apartment the people across the street had hens and it was months before we even noticed them. Once we came home to a hen in our backyard, and even though it turned out not to be one of theirs, they promptly came to collect it. She was added to the roost and that was the last of it.

Also a walk along the linear park wouldn't be the same without the colorful backyard chickens, which by the way, have never pooped on me or attacked my baby even once. Not sure of my point exactly, but that my real experiences are much less exciting than what the anti-chicken lobby is predicting. Probably more likely to be successful in parts of town where people understand they are a neighborhood and part of a larger community, versus those committed to defending their precious postage stamp from all comers.