MITTING THEIR PANTS
On Mitt Romney’s Chances in 2008
By Tracy Medley, 6-20-06
By all accounts, Mitt Romney is a whip-smart man of integrity with unique skills and qualities that would seem a perfect fit for the presidency. He is well liked and respected on both sides of the aisle and is widely considered a good man, but his potential bid for the presidency in 2008 just might force the GOP to deal with some major underlying tension between its devoted Mormon and evangelical bases.
Mormons overwhelmingly vote Republican, gave 95 percent of their vote to George W. Bush in the 2004 election and share the religious right’s goals concerning “traditional family values.” However, they soon may face some tough decisions about their political loyalties if their evangelical brothers choose to dismiss Romney principally because of his religious beliefs.
Most traditional religions reject the validity of Mormon baptisms, but few religions are as critical of the Latter-day Saint faith as evangelical and fundamentalist Christian groups. They have repeatedly labeled Mormonism as a “cult” and take every opportunity to deride the LDS church through written and widely distributed literature. Put most plainly, fundamentalist Christians, when not pandering to Mormons for votes against gay marriage, abortion and stem-cell research, do not believe that Mormons are Christian at all. Moreover they deem Mormonism a “false religion” and their members guilty of blasphemy.
According to an article by Amy Sullivan, published in Washington Monthly, “In 2004, Mormons were specifically excluded for participation in the National Day of Prayer organized by Shirley Dobson (wife of James Dobson, leader of the conservative Christian organization Focus on the Family) because their theology was found to be incompatible with Christian beliefs.”
However, when it comes to publicly criticizing Romney specifically for being a Mormon, few evangelicals have come out swinging.
In fact, Charles Colson, a prominent evangelical leader told the Weekly Standard that he “could in very good conscience support Romney,” but quickly made sure to clarify his position later in a radio address, “I respect Mormons and work with them, but we can’t gloss over our fundamental differences.”
Ultimately, fundamentalists will have to decide if those “differences” negate Romney’s demonstrated ability as a worthy candidate and if they’re willing to alienate their LDS comrades at the risk of dividing their Party.
Will Mormon Republicans stage a massive walkout on the Republican Party if Romney’s bid is rejected? Probably not. But it might begin to loosen the Republican death grip around the Mormon throat—and maybe that’s not such a bad thing.
If Romney does make it past the evangelical snake-pit in the primary races, there is still the bigger question, looming large: Is America ready for a Mormon president?
Senator Ted Kennedy (D) of Massachusetts, when asked by the Atlantic Monthly whether he thought that Romney’s Mormonism would hurt him in a national campaign said it best, “The answer is no,” he said, “we’ve moved on. That died with my brother Jack.”
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He has repeatedly stated that while he is personally against abortion, he has no intention of changing the law as it stands.
I never thought that after falling asleep during the address he gave at my 1999 college graduation that I would ever be defending this guy...and I should state that I pretty much disagree with all of his political views...but, after all the reading I did, I couldn't deny that he is at least perceived as an honorable and decent dude.
This article is a concise and outstanding summary of the potential divide evangelicals draw with mormons, as well as the stress this will put on Romney's candidacy. I'm even further impressed by your lack of spin or misrepresentation, given that you disagree with so many of Romney's political views.
My hope is that voters will judge Romney on his character and track record, and NOT on an unconstitutional religious litmus test. I'd be very happy with more voters like you who disagree with him on substance and not theology.
2.A man can become god.
3.Each world has it's own god.
4.We all were spirit children fathered by the god of this world.
5.The god of this world came to earth and had intercourse with Mary (incest? was not Mary his "spirit child?) and that's where Jesus came from.
6.There are three levels of heaven (If you are not Mormon you automaticely go to the lowest level)
7.Jesus paid the price for attonement when he sweated drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane.
8.When Jesus died on the cross he FAILED.
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THIS IS MORMONISM, WHAT PART SOUNDS LIKE CHRISTIANITY TO YOU?
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You've provided an excellent example of what Tracy was talking about when she says:
"They have repeatedly labeled Mormonism as a “cult” and take every opportunity to deride the LDS church through written and widely distributed literature"
Your post is grossly innacurate and offensive on points #3, #5, #6, and #8. Most of the remaining points are over-simplified. You are either misinformed (possibly no fault of your own), or you are a misinformant (some major character flaws).
Here's the actual doctrine: All people previously, currently, or yet to inhabit this Earth are spiritual children of God. Furthermore, the 1/3 host of heaven which followed satan (including satan) are also spiritual children of God. Basically EVERYONE (good or bad) is His spiritual offspring (not to be confused with His only begotten).
Jerry has twisted it to sound quite different from the actual doctrine. Although this is a unique doctrine to the LDS church, doctrinal uniqueness is not an automatic "cult status". When these rabid people try to say "you're not Christian but I am", it's an arbitrary and emotional accusation. Also notice how quickly he backed down from the most obvious lies (as he knew them to be).
Here's a funny cartoon on the subject:
http://www.fairlds.org/Humor/Another_Expert_Weighs_In.html
http://www.lds.org/
http://www.mormon.org/
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Mike Norton who was Mormon, but is now a born-again Christian, collected most of the information on this website while he was still LDS. He was trying to defend his faith. His search lead him to the Jesus of the Bible and away from Mormonism.
Do you appreciate the irony of posting all this bogus anti-mormon junk of yours to an article which specifically mentions how some evangelicals take every opportunity to try to paint Romney's religion as a cult?
Kevin, excellent idea with the official website links. No need to fill this entire blog with a doctrine debate when things are so clearly outlined elsewhere.
http://www.mormon.org/question/faq/category/questions/0,8789,895-1-16,00.html
Seriously, the only thing a Baptist has authority to define is what being a Baptist is, and I will agree, Mormons are not Baptists.
(And no Jerry your wrong, Murphy's right, 3,5,6 & 8 are not Mormon doctrine so you can stop trying to define Mormonism too.)
I asked a Baptist once how they decided who was Christian and who wasn't. He said that those who believe in the Trinity (i.e Father, Son & Holy Ghost are all one composite being)are Christians and those that don't aren't. I guess that's something that they have in common with most other protestants and Catholics. But since that doctrine was only ratified by the Catholic church around 300 AD (and it was controversial at the time) that surpised me. I would have thought the standard would be a belief in the divinity of Christ and a reliance on his atonement.
Anyway, it will be interesting in the upcoming primarys to see what proportion of evangelicals are like Jerry, and what proportion simply want to find a decent candidate of any stripe.
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Book of Mormon, Alma 11:26-29 "And Zeezrom said unto him; Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said:Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.
Nice try painting mormons as polytheistic. We worship the one and only God the Father and His son (our savior) Jesus Christ. Our belief in man's potential to become more like god in the here-after is in no conflict with this.
Anyone's free to disagree with the LDS beliefs about deification. But stop telling me what I believe when you're no expert.
Next you ought to try the one about the horns in our heads.
I expect that the huge bulk of evangelicals realize that 2008 is about electing our next president, NOT about electing a minister.
While folks like Jerry may think that theological doctrines matter in selecting the next head of state, the important thing to Americans in a president is well summarized in the following two mormon beliefs (Articles of Faith):
11. "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
12. "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."
These two beliefs are essential in a president. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln's Lyceum Address,
"America has a political religion and people who are elected to office must subscribe to this political religion, which is to place the oath of office, an oath to abide by a nation of laws and the Constitution, above all others"
I believe there was. But we don't worship him. A previous god is completely outside my concern. From my point of view, God (whom I worship) is "from the beginning to the end". And seeing as the Bible was written for our benefit, I'm not surprised that it's silent on the matter.
Feel free to disagree. But stop trying to tear down other peoples' beliefs. You seem interested in nothing but spreading lies (when you can) and beating people over the head with your beliefs (when you can't get away with lies). Are you familiar with the phrase "by their fruits you shall know them"? I'm getting to know what you stand for pretty fast.
Also, to Larry: I thank you for your comments. I hope some day you can learn that attacking a religion is pretty much a waste time. You might find a person who will fall for your line of half truth telling, but I think for most people any respect for you or your beliefs generally is deflated by your mode of attacking, a.k.a."proselyting."
I generally dont spend time arguing my beliefs with people, and I am not going to now. But I have thoroughly and honestly investigated every claim by the anti's from the old ones to new ones, and it all pretty much has convinced me that every anti-mormon tactic revolves around leaving out 99% of the story and focusing on points that can be easily sensationalized. Basically your brand of anti-mormonism is to Christianity what the Enquirer is to literature.
I am sure you'll have some snappy response, so I will let you have the last word.
Jason Bonham
http://www.illinoisans4mitt.blogspot.com
1.Deuteronomy 4:35,39
2.Deuteronomy 6:4
3.Deuteronomy 32:39
4.2Samuel 7:22
5.1kings 8:60
6.2Kings 5:15
7.2Kings 19:15
8.Nehemiah 9:6
9.Psalm 18:31
10.Psalm 86:10
11.Isaiah 37:16,20
12.Isaiah 43:10,11
13.Isaiah 44:6,8
14.Isaiah 45:21
15.Isaiah 46:9
16.Hosea 13:4
17.Joel 2:27
18.Zechariah 14:9
19.Mark 12:29-34
20.John 17:3
21 Romans 3:30
22.1Corinthians 8:4-6
23.Galatians 3:20
24.Ephesians 4:6
25.1Timothy 1:17
26.1Timothy 2:5
27.James 2:19
When I said "the Bible is silent on the matter", I meant that the Bible makes no mention of other gods. Clearly, the Bible makes plenty mention of our God.
Thank you for the beautiful scriptural references (and I say that without sarcasm). I've read them all before, and I read them again now just for you. Several of them are particular favorites of mine. I understand how you can interpret them as you do. I interpret them differently based on many scriptures outside that limited list of yours.
However, my main points are unchanged. You can't just label millions of followers of Christ as cultists because of arbitrary doctrinal differences, or because of differences in interpretation of scripture.
If you simply can't be placated, I'd suggest we bring your proselytization outside of this blog, as it is derailing the whole thrust of the author's article. At the very least it would educate you as to what mormons really do believe.
Jerry. Did God create everything, or was Satan around before God? Just as long? You call God your father because he created you. If God created Satan isn't he his father?
Didn't God create Hitler? Why is it offensive to you to think that a parent can have a good child and a bad child? Father Adam had Cane and Able.
So the question to you Mr. Angry pants is who created Satan?
Gen. 3: 22(Moses 4: 28) man is become as one of us.
Lev. 19: 2(1 Pet. 1: 16) be holy: for I . . . am holy.
Ps. 8: 5thou hast made him a little lower than the angels.
Ps. 8: 6madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands.
Ps. 82: 6ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High.
Matt. 5: 48(3 Ne. 12: 48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father.
Luke 24: 39spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 10: 34(Ps. 82: 1-8; D&C;76: 58) Is it not written in your law . . . Ye are gods.
Acts 17: 29we are the offspring of God.
Rom. 8: 17heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.
2 Cor. 3: 18changed into the same image from glory to glory.
Gal. 4: 7if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Eph. 4: 13Till we all come . . . unto a perfect man.
Heb. 12: 9be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live.
1 Jn. 3: 2when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
Rev. 3: 21him that overcometh will . . . sit with me in my throne.
Gen. 17: 1walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Deut. 18: 13Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord.
Deut. 25: 15shalt have a perfect and just weight.
Deut. 32: 4his work is perfect.
2 Sam. 22: 31his way is perfect.
1 Kgs. 8: 61Let your heart therefore be perfect with the Lord.
1 Kgs. 11: 4(1 Kgs. 15: 3) heart was not perfect with the Lord.
2 Chr. 8: 16house of the Lord was perfected.
2 Chr. 16: 9them whose heart is perfect toward him.
Job 1: 1(Job 1: 8) Job . . . was perfect and upright.
Ps. 18: 30God, his way is perfect.
Ps. 19: 7law of the Lord is perfect.
Ps. 50: 2Zion, the perfection of beauty.
Prov. 4: 18shineth . . . unto the perfect day.
Matt. 5: 48(3 Ne. 12: 48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father.
Matt. 19: 21If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast.
Luke 6: 40every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Luke 8: 14choked with cares . . . and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luke 13: 32third day I shall be perfected.
John 17: 23that they may be made perfect in one.
Acts 18: 26they . . . expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
1 Cor. 1: 10perfectly joined together in the same mind.
1 Cor. 2: 6we speak wisdom among them that are perfect.
1 Cor. 13: 10when that which is perfect is come.
2 Cor. 7: 1perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2 Cor. 13: 11Be perfect . . . and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Gal. 3: 3are ye now made perfect by the flesh.
Eph. 4: 12For the perfecting of the saints.
Eph. 4: 13in the unity of the faith . . . unto a perfect man.
Philip. 3: 12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect.
Col. 1: 28that we may present every man perfect in Christ.
Col. 3: 14put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col. 4: 12stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
1 Thes. 3: 10might perfect that which is lacking in your faith.
2 Tim. 3: 17That the man of God may be perfect.
Heb. 2: 10to make the captain of their salvation perfect.
Heb. 5: 9being made perfect, he became the author.
Heb. 6: 1let us go on unto perfection.
Heb. 7: 11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical.
Heb. 7: 19law made nothing perfect.
Heb. 9: 9could not make him that did the service perfect.
Heb. 10: 1law . . . never . . . make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb. 11: 40they without us should not be made perfect.
Heb. 12: 23(D&C;129: 3) spirits of just men made perfect.
Heb. 13: 21Make you perfect in every good work.
James 1: 4patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect.
James 1: 17every perfect gift is from above.
James 1: 25whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty . . . blessed is his deed.
James 2: 22by works was faith made perfect.
James 3: 2offend not in word, the same is a perfect man.
1 Pet. 5: 10God . . . make you perfect.
1 Jn. 2: 5verily is the love of God perfected.
1 Jn. 4: 12his love is perfected.
1 Jn. 4: 18(Moro. 8: 16) perfect love casteth out fear.
Satan. The devil is the enemy of righteousness and of those who seek to do the will of God. He is literally a spirit son of God and was at one time an angel in authority in the presence of God (Isa. 14: 12; 2 Ne. 2: 17). However, he rebelled in the premortal life and persuaded a third part of the spirit children of the Father to rebel with him (D&C;29: 36; Moses 4: 1-4; Abr. 3: 27-28). They were cast out of heaven, were denied the opportunity of obtaining mortal bodies and experiencing mortal life, and will be eternally damned. Since the time the devil was cast out of heaven, he has sought constantly to deceive all men and women and lead them away from the work of God in order to make all mankind as miserable as he is (Rev. 12: 9; 2 Ne. 2: 27; 9: 8-9).
Jesus rebuked the devil, Matt. 17: 18. Everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his angels, Matt. 25: 41. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you, James 4: 7. The wicked will be brought down into the captivity of the devil, 1 Ne. 14: 7. The devil is the father of all lies, 2 Ne. 2: 18 (Moses 4: 4). The devil seeks that all men might be miserable like unto himself, 2 Ne. 2: 27. If the flesh should rise no more, our spirits must become subject to the devil, 2 Ne. 9: 8-9. The devil will rage, pacify, and flatter, 2 Ne. 28: 20-23. That which is evil comes from the devil, Omni 1: 25 (Alma 5: 40; Moro. 7: 12, 17). Beware lest contentions arise among you, and ye obey the evil spirit, Mosiah 2: 32. If ye are not the sheep of the good shepherd, the devil is your shepherd, Alma 5: 38-39. The devil will not support his children, Alma 30: 60. Pray continually that ye may not be led away by the temptations of the devil, Alma 34: 39 (3 Ne. 18: 15, 18). Build your foundation upon the Redeemer that the devil’s mighty storm shall have no power over you, Hel. 5: 12. The devil is the author of all sin, Hel. 6: 26-31. The devil sought to lay a cunning plan, D&C;10: 12. It must needs be that the devil tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents, D&C;29: 39. Adam became subject to the will of the devil because he yielded unto temptation, D&C;29: 40. The sons of perdition will reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, D&C;76: 33, 44. The devil will be bound for a thousand years, D&C;88: 110 (Rev. 20: 2). The wicked one takes away light and truth, D&C;93: 39. Satan kept not his first estate, Abr. 3: 28.
The church of the devil: Every evil and worldly organization on earth that perverts the pure and perfect gospel and fights against the Lamb of God.
The devil founded the great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13: 6 (1 Ne. 14: 9). There are only two churches, one of the Lamb of God and one of the devil, 1 Ne. 14: 10 (Alma 5: 39). Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil, D&C;18: 20. The great and abominable church shall be cast down, D&C;29: 21.
Complete, whole, and fully developed; totally righteous. Perfect can also mean without sin or evil. Only Christ was totally perfect. True followers of Christ may become perfect through his grace and atonement.
Let your heart be perfect with the Lord, 1 Kgs. 8: 61. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven, Matt. 5: 48 (3 Ne. 12: 48). If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, James 3: 2. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things, Alma 32: 21, 26. The Atonement was made so that God might be a perfect God, Alma 42: 15. Moroni was a man of perfect understanding, Alma 48: 11-13, 17-18. The Spirit of Christ is given to every man to judge and know with a perfect knowledge whether something is of God or the devil, Moro. 7: 15-17. Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, Moro. 10: 32. Continue in patience until ye are perfected, D&C;67: 13. These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus, D&C;76: 69. The offices in the Church are for the perfecting of the Saints, D&C;124: 143 (Eph. 4: 11-13). The living are not perfect without their dead, D&C;128: 15, 18. Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation, Moses 8: 27.
See also God, Godhead; Sons and Daughters of God; Spirit; Spirit Creation
Refers to all mankind, both male and female. All men and women are the literal, spiritual offspring of a Heavenly Father. When they are born into mortality, they receive physical, mortal bodies. These bodies were created in God’s image (Gen. 1: 26-27). Men and women who are faithful in receiving the necessary ordinances, keeping their covenants, and obeying God’s commands will enter into their exaltation and become as God.
God created man in his own image, Gen. 1: 27 (Mosiah 7: 27; D&C;20: 17-18). What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Ps. 8: 4-5. Cursed is the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm, Jer. 17: 5 (2 Ne. 4: 34; 28: 26, 31). When I became a man, I put away childish things, 1 Cor. 13: 11. Men are that they might have joy, 2 Ne. 2: 25. The natural man is an enemy to God, Mosiah 3: 19. What manner of men ought ye to be? 3 Ne. 27: 27. The works of man are frustrated, not the works of God, D&C;3: 3. You should not fear man more than God, D&C;3: 7 (D&C;30: 11; 122: 9). All things are made for the benefit and the use of man, D&C;59: 18. I know that man is nothing, Moses 1: 10. God’s work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, Moses 1: 39.
Man, a spirit child of Heavenly Father: They fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, Num. 16: 22 (Num. 27: 16). Ye are the children of the Lord your God, Deut. 14: 1. Ye are gods and all of you are children of the Most High, Ps. 82: 6. Ye are the sons of the living God, Hosea 1: 10. Have we not all one Father? Hath not one God created us? Mal. 2: 10. We are the offspring of God, Acts 17: 29. The Spirit itself beareth witness that we are the children of God, Rom. 8: 16. Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, Heb. 12: 9. The spirits of all men are taken home to that God who gave them life, Alma 40: 11. The inhabitants of the worlds are begotten sons and daughters of God, D&C;76: 24. Man was in the beginning with the Father, D&C;93: 23, 29. God created all men spiritually, before they were upon the face of the earth, Moses 3: 5-7. I am God; I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh, Moses 6: 51.
Man, potential to become like Heavenly Father: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5: 48 (3 Ne. 12: 48). Is it not written in your law that ye are gods? John 10: 34 (D&C;76: 58). We may become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, Rom. 8: 17. Thou art a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4: 7. When he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3: 2. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me on my throne, Rev. 3: 21. To them have I given to become the sons of God, 3 Ne. 9: 17. Those who inherit the celestial kingdom are gods, even the sons of God, D&C;76: 50, 58. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, D&C;132: 20.
The supreme Governor of the universe and the Father of mankind. We learn from the revelations that have been given that there are three separate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without flesh and bone (D&C;130: 22-23).
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God. Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brethren and sisters, he being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus). Thus the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but we know that it was actually the LORD (Jesus) who was the creator (John 1: 3, 10), or as Paul said, God created all things by Christ Jesus (Eph. 3: 9). The Holy Ghost is also a God and is variously called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit of God, etc.
Although God created all things and is the ruler of the universe, being omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent (through his Spirit), mankind has a special relationship to him that differentiates man from all other created things: man is literally God’s offspring, made in his image, whereas all other things are but the work of his hands (cf. Acts 17: 28-29).
The God of the scriptures is a holy being. Man is commanded to be holy because God is holy (Lev. 11: 44-45; Lev. 19: 2). God can be known only by revelation. He must be revealed, or remain forever unknown (cf. Mosiah 4: 9). God first revealed himself to Adam (Moses 5; 6) and has repeatedly made himself known by revelation to chosen patriarchs and prophets since that time. The present translation of John 1: 18 and 1 Jn. 4: 12 is misleading, for these say that no man has ever seen God. However, the scriptures state that there have been many who have seen him. The JST corrects these items to show that no sinful man has ever seen God, and also that Jesus Christ is the only Way to God. God the Father and his Son have been manifested by voice, sight, or otherwise at various times, as at the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 3: 16-17); the Transfiguration (Matt. 17: 1-8); to Stephen (Acts 7: 55-56); and to the Nephites (3 Ne. 11: 7). The Father and the Son personally visited Joseph Smith in the Sacred Grove, in the spring of 1820, near Manchester, New York, in the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times (JS-H 1: 11-20).
Latter-day revelation confirms the biblical account of God as the literal father of the human family; as a being who is concerned for the welfare of mankind, and a Personage who hears and answers prayers.
For other references to God, see Heb. 1: 1-3; Jacob 4: 5; D&C;20: 17.
See also Holy Ghost; Jehovah.
We can’t fully understand how Jesus suffered for our sins. But we know that in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of our sins caused Him to feel such agony that He bled from every pore (Luke 22:39–44).
Later, as He hung upon the cross, Jesus willingly suffered painful death by one of the most cruel methods ever known.
The Savior tells us:
For behold, I . . . have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer . . . even as I. [Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–17]
Jesus Christ did what only He could do in atoning for our sins. To make His Atonement fully effective in our individual lives, we must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, obey God's commandments, and strive to become like Him. As we do these things through His Atonement, we can return to live with Him and our Heavenly Father forever.
That would be why I was steering clear of the doctrinal debate. Being fully aware of the utter scriptural smack-down that could be served Jerry (John 10:34 being perhaps the most blatant example), I mostly wanted to avoid chasing away the non-theologian crowd.
-- Ezra Taft Benson, "Born of God," Ensign, July 1989, 2 (13th President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)
Myclob, it was a very nice smackdown you gave, and I'll be using parts of your lists for my own personal references.
I'm still resting with my statement that people who won't vote for a mormon are part of a very loud ultra-minority.
"Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality."
I can show you dozens more from Saint Clement, Origen, Cyril, and plenty more. Are you ready to disqualify all of those men as Christians, or are you going to accept the completely Biblical doctine of deification?
Are you claiming that a whole religion is false because its founder Joseph Smith made a boastful statement (which he later repented of)?
Are you actually serious? I didn't think you could possibly sound any more desperate in your attacks.
While Smith's statement WAS true, it was still prideful boasting. Nobody ever claimed he was a perfect man (as Jesus Christ was the only perfect man). Surely you're aware of the fact that God calls imperfect men to be his prophets.
Spare me the litany of Joseph's human faults, along with the tangential "proofs" of him not being a prophet. You don't have a leg to stand on. And be thankful that mormons don't attack your religious beliefs like you attack ours.
But as for flip-flop...
http://yr4ny.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_yr4ny_archive.html
Reporter Chris Wallace: "When you were running for governor of Massachusetts back in 2002, you said -- and let's put it up on the screen -- "I believe women should have the right to make their own choice."
But now that you're considering a race for president, you say you're a pro-life governor who wishes the laws of the nation could reflect that view. Governor, why the change?"
I understand his position, your explnation of it, but many people will see significantly different emphasis and call it a political flip-flop. You dont, Ok, I do.
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http://www.townhall.com/opinion/column/mikeadams/2006/06/07/200201.html
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Take a look. This is a conservative website
Dude, you're a wacko. Go learn more about your religion before you attack other peoples'.
Larry,
Thank you ever so much for posting something about Romney's POLITICS. Even though I disagree with you, at this point I'll take what I can get.
Somebody pass the aspirin.
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Joseph to be made god for you???
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney
"Many years ago, I had a dear, close family relative that was very close to me who passed away from an illegal abortion," Romney said in a televised debate opposite Senator Edward Kennedy. "It is since that time my mother and my family have been committed to the belief that we can believe as we want, but we will not force our beliefs on others on that matter. And you will not see me wavering on that."
And today 'a pro-life governor who wishes the laws of the nation could reflect that view'.
Just how much does he now wish the laws of the nation could reflect that pro-life view? I'll listen to his position and accept it as his true beliefs now but he will be forced to specify favor/oppose for not just restrictions to current abortion laws but its fundamental legality, the right of privacy and choice that he said "we will not force our beliefs on others on that matter. And you will not see me wavering on that."
When you boil it down either he is for some choice by others who may have a different view than his or he is not. In the past he was against forced uniformity, restriction on the exercise of other's personal choice. Where is he now?
Still for some choice but less choice than for the last 3 decades, or only for the rarest cases of choice (for rape, incest and life of mother), or no choice? These are all positions I can respect. But if he is now for no choice (this is the standard pro-life political position) then his view has changed singificantly and as I said initially "Being perceived as a flip-floper on abortion" may indeed hurt him.
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diamond truth???
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God is Joseph Smith's right hand man????
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http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/07/26/romney_vetoes_law_on_pill_takes_aim_at_roe_v_wade/
It goes on and discusses his position on emergency contraception.Eliminate the term flip-flop if you want but pro-choice groups say they are hearing him support less than his words suggested to them in 2002 and pro-life groups are saying they are more satisified with his recent words and actions than in the past.
------------------------------------------------http://www.townhall.com/opinion/column/mikeadams/2006/06/07/200201.html
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That is a significant change.
Of course many politicians have changed their views on abortion. He doesnt deny that his views have changed some recently, the debate is just how much.
If you would like to see the 1830 edition next to the changes in today's Book of Mormon go to:
------------------------------------------------http://www.mazeministry.com/
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One person's true way may be perceived to another as a false path.
Prefer that folks focus on their own beliefs and be civil; but there is also some freedom to read/think/speak about other religions. It can useful, sometimes promoting tolerance, understanding, co-existence. But it can drift negative too. Way negative. State your beliefs or nonbeliefs to those willing to discuss them jointly but once you know you disagree fundamentally there isnt much point to an extended heated dispute except to those who enjoy that sort of thing, perhaps a little too much.
I was a Mormon missionary, but I never shared with anyone the scriptures I am about to share with you, because in the Words of Wilford Woodruf, " * When you go into a neighborhood to preach the Gospel, never attempt to tear down a man’s house, so to speak, before you build him a better one; never, in fact, attack any one’s religion, wherever you go. Be willing to let every man enjoy his own religion. It is his right to do that. If he does not accept your testimony with regard to the Gospel of Christ, that is his affair, and not yours. Do not spend your time in pulling down other sects and parties. We haven’t time to do that. It is never right to do that."
Contributor, August 1895, pp.636–37.
But the Bible is not complete. It's not like it is something we try to convince people, unless they say, "Elder I believe the Bible is complete, do you have any scriptures that might show otherwise."
Anyways, here are the scriptures...
http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/scrptrsl
# Ex. 24: 7
7 And he took the book of the acovenant, and bread• in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be cobedient.
# Num. 21: 14
14 Wherefore it is said in the abook of the wars of the LORD, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,
# Josh. 10: 13
13 And the asun• stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of bJasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
# 2 Sam. 1: 18
18 (Also he bade them ateach• the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of bJasher.)
# 1 Sam. 10: 25
25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the akingdom, and bwrote it in a cbook, and laid it up before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.
# 1 Kgs. 11: 41
41 ¶ And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the abook of the acts of Solomon?
# 1 Chr. 29: 29
29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of aNathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the bseer,
# 2 Chr. 9: 29
29 ¶ Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of aNathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the bseer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
# 2 Chr. 12: 15
15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of aShemaiah• the prophet, and of Iddo the bseer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.
# 2 Chr. 13: 22
22 And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in the story of the prophet aIddo.
# 2 Chr. 20: 34
34 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of aJehu the son of Hanani, who is mentioned in the book of the kings of Israel.
# 2 Chr. 33: 19
19 His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the asayings of the seers.
# Matt. 2: 23
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called aNazareth•: that it might be fulfilled which was bspoken by the prophets, He shall be called a cNazarene•.
# 1 Cor. 5: 9
9 I wrote unto you in an aepistle not to bcompany• with cfornicators•:
# Eph. 3: 3
3 How that by revelation he made aknown• unto me the mystery; (as I bwrote afore in few words,
# Col. 4: 16
16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the aepistle from Laodicea.
# Jude 1: 3
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to awrite unto you of the common bsalvation•, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should cearnestly dcontend• for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
# Jude 1: 14
14 And aEnoch• also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord bcometh• with ten thousands of his csaints,
# 1 Ne. 13: 26
26 And after they go forth by the ahand• of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews bunto• the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that cgreat• and abominable dchurch, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have etaken• away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are fplain• and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
# 1 Ne. 19: 10
10 And the aGod• of our fathers, who were bled• out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the cGod• of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, dyieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of ewicked men, to be flifted• up, according to the words of gZenock•, and to be hcrucified•, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a isepulchre•, according to the words of jZenos•, which he spake concerning the three days of kdarkness•, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the lhouse• of Israel.
# 3 Ne. 10: 16
16 Yea, the prophet aZenos• did testify of these things, and also Zenock spake bconcerning• these things, because they testified particularly concerning us, who are the remnant of their seed.
# 2 Ne. 29: 12
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the aJews• and they shall bwrite it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall cwrite• it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto dall• nations of the earth and they shall write it.
# Jacob 5: 1
1 BEHOLD, my brethren, do ye not remember to have read the words of the prophet aZenos•, which he spake unto the house of Israel, saying:
# Jacob 6: 1
1 AND now, behold, my brethren, as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy—that the things which this prophet aZenos• spake, concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame bolive•-tree, must surely come to pass.
# Alma 32: 3
3 Therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as adross•; therefore they were bpoor• as to things of the world; and also they were poor in heart.
# Alma 34: 7
7 My brother has called upon the words of aZenos•, that redemption cometh through the Son of God, and also upon the words of bZenock•; and also he has appealed unto cMoses•, to prove that these things are true.
# Hel. 15: 11
11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall aprolong• their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet bZenos•, and many other prophets, concerning the crestoration• of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth—
# Alma 63: 12
12 Now behold, all those aengravings• which were in the possession of Helaman were written and sent forth among the children of men throughout all the land, save it were those parts which had been commanded by Alma should bnot• go forth.
# Hel. 8: 20
20 And behold, also aZenock•, and also bEzias, and also cIsaiah•, and dJeremiah•, (Jeremiah being that same prophet who testified of the destruction of eJerusalem•) and now we know that Jerusalem was destroyed according to the words of Jeremiah. O then why not the Son of God come, according to his prophecy?
# Ether 1: 5
5 But behold, I give not the full account, but a apart• of the account I give, from the tower down until they were destroyed.
# Ether 3: 17, 21
17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could anot• make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he bshowed• himself unto the Nephites.
• • •
21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the atime• cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall btreasure• up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.
# Ether 15: 33
33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he afinished• his brecord•; (and the chundredth• part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.
# D&C;107: 57
57 These things were all written in the book of aEnoch•, and are to be testified of in due time.
# Moses 1: 41
41 And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as anaught• and btake• many of them from the cbook• which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another dlike• unto thee; and they shall be ehad• again among the children of men—among as many as shall believe.
# Moses 6: 5
5 And a abook• of bremembrance was kept, in the which was recorded, in the clanguage• of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of dinspiration;
# 2 Chr. 26: 22
22 ¶ Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, awrite.
# 1 Ne. 13: 34
34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have avisited• the bremnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do cstumble• exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the dgospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the eGentiles in that day, insomuch that I will fbring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my ggospel•, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.
http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/scrptrsl
Seek by faith, prayer and humility, to obtain wisdom, and the Spirit of God to dictate in all your labours. Wisdom is one of the greatest gifts of God, and the voice of wisdom will not tell us to spend our time in warring against the sects of the day, opposing the opinions of men, ridiculing the religions that surround us, thereby cutting off the ears of the hearer; barring the hearts of men against light and truth; the opinions and religions of other men are as dear unto them as ours are unto us. . . . Let Salvation be your text, in meekness and humility, with the power of eternal truth, wisdom, light and knowledge that are hid in the first principles of the gospel of the Son of God. You can be instrumental in saving the souls of men, and they will rejoice with yourselves that they have ever beheld the light thereof; we should never get above the gospel, or leave it to preach something that is foreign to our calling; or to make strife about words to no profit; every tree is known by its fruit; if we are faithful before the Lord, pursue a wise and prudent course, good fruit will be sure to follow our labours.
“To the Officers and Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the British Islands,” Millennial Star, February 1845, pp. 141–42.
I'm going to use small words that you can understand. You are a a norow minded idiot. You are a bigot, and you are an ass. Work on those, and tell me how all that works out for you, ok?
I wont go into the baptism of the dead and unsaved to their perspective controversy other than to say I understand their view but disagree with it and understand some find it aggressive and perhaps disrespectful. Attempts to reach an understanding
have not lead to complete resolution.
I've read some from and about the Book of Mormon, and also the skeptics and denouncers of Joeseph Smith, his past, his exalted sense of knowledge and power, his stance toward the US government, his personal choices that seem to show failings and abuses if the accounts are to be believed and honestly if I am skeptical of the church's claims so am I about some of the accusations and know I will never know the exact truth because I wasn't there nearly 200 yeas ago just like I wasnt elsewhere 2000 years ago, etc.
But I also know a little of the Mormon persecutions, the migration, Brigham Young, the construction of a community in Utah more integrated into the rest of the country though still distant in some ways. But I can say that about a lot of groups of all stripes.
I have had a few longer discussions with these polite earnest missionary visitors in recent years back and forth. Mainly I am trying to treat them with equal courtesy as fellow seekers, fellow travellers working on living right, fellow Americans. That really is just a small step in living my ethics of respect and tolerance for others. The last bunch guys who visited I tried to help them with getting around and enjoying my city during their visit here.
We don't have the same creed and won't because I do not have their faith. I consider my skepticism and nonacceptance as honest and true to my own efforts and ability to understand as they to their faith and Jerry to his views. While I assume from one of his last links in particular Jerry has his own creed that his affirms and wants to spread against views he finds antithetical, I must say my skepticism and nonacceptance currently extends to any religious creed though I was raised in one and gained from it. I am appreciative of my ability to search for truth and meaning and have learned from explorations of many religions and philosophies.
The LDS church and adherrents have and present a view, Jerry has and presents his. And I have one too and everyone else can too.
I understand that a true believer in one path is going to see others as lost if they dont save them
But I've said my piece and heard enough too. Bye.
Myclob in simple words what is the "abominable church" today?
I thought I appreciated the quote from Wilford Woodruf about being "willing to let every man enjoy his own religion. It is his right to do that". But what is the abominable church and how does the stance to it relate? Let every man enjoy his religion... even though it is abominable?
How is that different from Jerry's posture?
but the folks can still be saved later?
To you Jerry is wasting time bothering folks...
meanwhile LDS tries to spread the good word... and "if we are faithful before the Lord, pursue a wise and prudent course, good fruit will be sure to follow our labours"?
Ok I can see the contrast you are making about preferred positive messages but there are good and lesser efforts made on behalf of each religious view.
I am all for letting example speak and people moving to it.
Doctrinal complexity and sectarian conflict. A huge part of history for thousands of years.
http://www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_christians.htm
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http://www.lhvm.org
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"the Bible vs the Book of Mormon" and "DNA vs the Book of Mormon". You can watch them on line for free.
You are right. I do not have the love in myself that I should have toward Jerry.
However part of me thinks the nicest thing someone can do is tell him what a complete idiot he is. His pure hatred, which drives him to use over simplistic 3rd grade logic, this hatred that tells more about his spiritual development, that tells that he has psycological problems with his faith... Jeffy is not living the abundant life. Until he can have more understanding of other people, he will have bad relationships every were he goes. He will not have a long lasting marrage, and his kids will hate them, becasue he is incapable of seeing. He is blind. Almost the best thing for him, would to meet an angry mormon in a dark ally. He needs to hit rock bottom. Something has got to change in him or he will go to hell. I'm concerned about him, and I don't know if anyone will ever reach him. Logic doesn't work. Calling him on lies doesn't work. He is past logic. He is past love. He lies to accomplish his goals.
Christ cleaned the temple, and called people hypocrits. I know that he had more authority than I do, but part of why he came to show us an example... There is only so much a person... Well maybe not.. Christ said to forgive someone 7 times 70... But I guess I forgive Jerry. I don't know what problems he has had in his life. But it doesn't mean I have to let him keep being an Ass. Christ said not to judge. I think Jerry is an ass, at this point in his life. I am not saying I would be any better if I lived his life. I have no Idea. That is up to God. I know I have been an ass in my life, and so I don't know if I am guilty of judging Jerry... What do you think?
I think that it is Sad today how many people don't want to talk about religion... People don't care.. In the days that my church was founded, people were always talking to their neighbors about stuff... Holding meetings in there homes... It was called the great awakining, and would have been a cool part of American history to be around in...
This is official LDS doctrine about the great and abomanable church:
http://scriptures.lds.org/gsd/devil
Here is a non official explanation (it was the first thing that came up when I googled "the great and abominable church"
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/last_days/great_abominable_eom.htm
Here is the first paragraph as a "hook".
The phrase "great and abominable church," which appears in an apocalyptic vision received by the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi1 in the sixth century B.C. (1 Ne. 13:6), refers to the church of the devil and is understood by Latter-day Saints to be equivalent to the "great whore that sitteth upon many waters" described in Revelation 17:1. This "whore of all the earth" is identified by Nephi's brother Jacob as all those who are against God and who fight against Zion, in all periods of time (2 Ne. 10:16). Nephi did not write a detailed account of everything he saw in the vision, as this responsibility was reserved for John the apostle, who was to receive the same vision; however, Nephi repeatedly refers to its content and teachings, using various images and phrases (1 Ne. 13:4-9, 26-27, 34; 14:1-4, 9-17).
Yes, we think people from every religion will eventually be saved. A god that sent every budhist to hell would not deserve to be worshiped, let alone respected. That is were baptism for the dead comes in. Christ is the only way to heaven, and like he told nicodemus, you can't see the kingdom of heaven unless you are born again by the spirit, and you can't enter unless you are babtised...
Here is more info about baptism for the dead: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/temples/baptism.html
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=581
I'll try and find a review of "DNA vs. the Book of Mormon", but you can find plenty on the DNA issue at farms.byu.edu
Oh, and I'd like you to respond to the quote I took from an early Christian saint who was among many who taught that men may become Gods.
Also, concerning the changes from the first edition of the Book of Mormon. If you applied that same standard to Jeremiah, you would make him a false prophet:
Jeremiah 36:32 (emphasis added, read 27-32 for full meaning)
Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: AND THERE WERE ADDED BESIDES UNTO THEM MANY LIKE WORDS.
I don't know how to bold/italicize so forgive me if it appears I am yelling.
Assertions about reforming or restoring the true church or revealing the true church and rejecting others is common to many religious groups but makes it hard for all to get along well.
Good day to all.
In order to love someone, you have to understand them. In order to understand someone you have to listen to them. Jerry, you have proven through your comments that you are incapable of listening to someone. You are incapable of having a rational conversation with somone, and yes, you are incapable of love. You are in capable of understanding, because you do not listen.
You say that we are going to hell because we are Mormon. Jesus, and old testament prophits said that the first commandment is to love God with all your heart, and the second commandment is to love your fellow man. You say that we are going to hell because we belong to the wrong church. God says that the greatest commandment is Love. I say that those who have love, will go to heaven, no matter what church they belong to in this life, because of baptism for the dead. I say that you are going to hell because you are incapable of love, understanding, and the ability to listen.
Someone who was capable of listening, would not still be saying the things that you say. Someone capable of understanding, might not agree with us, but they would at least acknoledge that there are some scriptures that make our beliefs valid. You have not responded to any of our comments, which says you are incapable of listening. You are a mouth. You have no ears. You are deaf. You are blind. You are going to hell, unless you change, unless you listen, unless you love, unless you understand, unless you think, unless you use the brain that god has given you.
Re: "What makes me mad is the lies of Joseph Smith and how the LDS try so hard to convert Christians." Why does that make you mad? Doesn't the bible teach that we should all be missionaries?
Re: "What makes me mad is the lies of Joseph Smith and how the LDS try so hard to convert Christians." I was a Mormon missionary, are you calling me a liar? Do you know me? Have you ever met me? I went on a mission with my honest beliefs, and shared them with anyone who would listen. They spit on me, and threw beer bottles at me. Am I a liar? I am not a liar. I believe what I believe because it makes sense to me. We are not the liars. You are the liar. You are the one who keeps repeating things that are not true. For instance just one example of your many damn stupid lies that I am FREAKING mad about is this one: "When Jesus died on the cross he FAILED." You said that is one of our beliefs. You are a piece of crap, you know that we do not believe that, and I hate you for spreading lies about my church.
"... and I hate you for spreading lies about my church."
How can I justify that comment with my beliefs? My mind says, "At least I'm being honest. The way that Jerry oversimplifies, and LIES about our beliefs... the only way he could do that is if he hates us. You know the old, his hatred caused my hatred, or he started it argument, and the at least I'm not a hypocrite argument..." But then I thought that I don't hate the sinner, I just hate the sin. I think Jerry if filled with the worst kind of sin, the self rightious sin that sees others as members of a cult, but are unable to see sin in themselves, the worst kind of sin, is the kind you can not see in yourself, the kind of salem witch trial self rightiousness that calls others sinners, the kind of sin that lead to the spanish inquisition. I hate that sin. I see it in him, and I get angry about it... But do I really hate him? I honestly don't know him. I don't know his age, background, location, native tonge. I don't know what shows he watches, if he has a family, and if they love him. If I knew these things about him, I probably could not hate him. But I hate the bigot that I see, threw this lens of reading his words on the interent. I know this is not the complete jerry. I do not know the complete jerry. But I hate the one I see threw this lens. I know that is not the real him. It is just a part of him. But I hate that part of him, because I love understanding. I love what happens when people honestly listen. I love seeing things threw a new perspective. And you can't love these things, and not hate those that destroy understanding, and cause missunderstandings...
I want you to notice something, since I started commenting, name calling has not stopped. My comments have been about Joseph Smith and the religion he started. I have not called one person, that has made a comment, any names.
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That is because I love Mormon People and I love them enough to tell them the truth.
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If you want an honest talk, I will be back around 3:00 PM. Myclob, that Jesus, that hung on that cross, loved YOU so much that He gave his life for you.
You said Mormon missionaries are liars.
Re: "If you want an honest talk, I will be back around 3:00 PM. Myclob, that Jesus, that hung on that cross, loved YOU so much that He gave his life for you."
Thanks for the info, you don't sound condesending at all when you talk like that! How does that work for you? Do you make lots of friends that way?
How about responding to one, just one thing I said?
Let me be more clear to you by adding one word to my original post:
"Certainly" ...Being Mormon alone doesnt disqualify in Republican primary...
Disagree with any of it as political analysis if you want but it was not an attack. Watch how the race unfolds and tell me in 21 months if I was fairly accurate or inaccurate in projecting what happens. All I did was estimate what will happen. I couldnt care less about his religious beliefs.
If my word choice or the impression it created to you offended, I apolgize. I was just trying to capture the political dynamic briefly having lived in the south most of my life.
One includes this quote: "in a 1999 Gallup poll, 17 percent of respondents said they wouldn't vote for a presidential candidate who's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. "
In 2008 and actually voting that number may be lower (I hope so) or higher. We will know more with time.
I hadnt seen this before but it is similar to what I said.
http://www.article6blog.com/
"I ran a poll for a week. The question was
As a traditonally creedal Christian, Would you find it difficult to vote for a presidental candidate of Mormon Faith?
The answer came in 53% “NO” - 47% “YES”. "
"It’s early, in fact an eternity in political terms, but based on my conversations and this little unscientific poll, I think Romney’s religious problems with evangelicals are real, and significant."
"But one must wonder what Romney’s best strategy is - proactive or reactive?
If reactive, how would one counter the issue when it arises. Claims of bigotry would be counter-productive serving only to alienate the group. But the same group is also likely to be somewhat immune to arguements that “Mormons aren’t really that different.” There are very significant theological differences, if not poltiical or practical ones, and such people are making decisions largely out of theology."
I agree with that.
Oh well, my mistake. But it caused me to read those articles further. I would encourage others to give Mitt Romney a full read and a fair shake.
"If Romney does make it past the evangelical snake-pit in the primary races, there is still the bigger question, looming large: Is America ready for a Mormon president?"
Many err.
In a stand against prejudice I'll note that use of the term "evangelical snake-pit" seems to also err.
Hopefully we will all work through the challenges each of us face.
1.Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
3.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4.Remember the sabbath day, to keep it only.
5.Honor thy father and thy mother.
6.Thou shalt not kill.
7.Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8.Thou shalt not steal.
9.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10.Thou shalt not covet.
Exodus 20:3-17
God spoke these words to Moses.
Here is a scripture out of The Gospel of John; In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. vs 1-3. Then go down to verse 14; And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
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What do these verses say about THE WORD? vs.1-3
1.In the beginning
2.With God
3.Was God
4.Made all things
5.Nothing made without
Then what happens to the Word? vs.14
1.Became flesh
2.Dwelt among us
Isn't this talking about Jesus?
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Immanuel= God with us. Immanuel means that even though Jesus was a man, He was also God at the same time.
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Jesus, who was already God, knew before He became a man, that He was going to have to die on the cross, and He chose to do it anyway.
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That's me and you, Myclob.
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Jesus chose to pay the wages of ALL our sins, either it was for All or He failed. ALL our sins past, present, future.
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Romans 6:23b but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
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a gift is something you can not pay for in anyway or it is no longer a gift.
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attonement came by Jesus shedding His blood on the cross, NOT SWEATING DROPS OF BLOOD IN THE GARDEN.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did say some odd things (of course so have Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell, Benny Hinn, that blue hair lady on TBN, and others) but waving that around to most Mormons in a demeaning way won’t change their belief system. They are used to being called wierdos, they actually like it. It goes with the whole “peculiar people” persona that makes them feel chosen.
I guess what my point is that you will never convert people this way. And this is a note to both the Mormons and Anti-Mormons (and don’t give me that crock on how you are not Anti-Mormon but Christian – if the shoe fits just wear it). I mean have any of you ever converted someone by just beating them down? A lasting conversion? If so, we need to ship you to Iraq. If you could convert some of the Radical-Islamist to your religion (no matter what it is) and get them to stop killing people for virgins in Heaven that would rock!
The real point is that Mitt is a decent guy whether you think Mormons are going to burn in Hell or not. He is actually trying to be a good person and has a good track record. That is more that what we can say for most politicians. We also need to remember that he is a politician and so has to be lubricated so that he can slip out and around tight corners, such as being interviewed by the press.
So from now on when Tracy has the word “Morm