New West Network

Matthew the citizen journalist? Give me a fricking break, Koehler. Don't even have the guts to name yourself? Pretty loooooow bagger.
That Community Protection Zone alternative of yours would have cost a million dollars out of pocket for politically-correct and ineffective work. You'd rather the whole forest burn, the only problem is if the fires jump into the untreated WUI it might make people a little unhappy with your obstructionist foolishness.
There comes a point, and we are well past it, where the ideological craving to make sure nobody ever makes a cent, and no project ever is fiscally viable, trumps any kind of ENVIRONMENTALLY viable work. I'd say you should be ashamed, but NFN and NFPA and EF and the whole lowbagger claque is beyond shame, reason, even sanity.
You radicals are wrong. Soon, it won't matter whether you realize it or not, because the real public is about to take care of the situation themselves. Nice job. Enjoy your new careers.

Mr. Skinner,

Apparently in your rage of name-calling you didn't notice, my full name and full contact information clearly on the article that I posted. I was asked by New West editors to submit this article as what they refer to a "citizen journalist."

Also, Mr. Skinner, I'm quite confident that the public can clearly see that rather than choosing to engage in a constructive dialogue, grounded in facts and science, you resort to lashing out with the type of name-calling that most of us have left behind following 3rd grade, second month.

Again, the alternative that the Native Forest Network supports as part of the Middle East Fork Hazardous Fuel Reduction HFRA project on the Bitterroot National Forest would reduce fuels on 1,600 acres of Forest Service lands while generating 45 local jobs and $1 million in local labor income.

This common-sense proposal is not only supported by some local residents who live along the East Fork and PhD scientists at the U of Montana School of Forestry, but also by longtime Bitterroot Valley residents with diverse backgrounds, including former Forest Service district rangers and wildlife biologists, professional foresters, former loggers, WW II veterans, restoration workers, hunters and anglers.

It should be very telling that some people are so filled with rage about this common-sense alternative that would reduce fuels on 1,600 acres of Forest Service lands and generate 45 jobs and $1 million in local labor income that they lash out with unproductive name-calling.

As I mentioned in my previous post, we hope the public will understand how difficult it is for conservation organizations like Native Forest Network (and our many members and supporters) to develop trust with certain people within the logging industry when some of them think it's appropriate to talk about conservationists and our pro-active vision for the future of our national forests in the manner Ms. Altemus and Mr. Skinner do.

As you will see from what is posted below, this is certainly not the first time Mr. Skinner has sent me a cryptic message filled with name-calling that borders on threatening.

Native Forest Network and other conservation groups remain committed to working together with a variety of national forest stakeholders to come up with solutions that will restore watersheds on our national forests and help protect communities from wildfire. We are willing to work with anyone who shares these goals and this vision.

Sincerely,
Matthew Koehler
Director, Native Forest Network

From: "Dave Skinner" <daskinner@centurytel.net>
To: <koehler@wildrockies.org>
Subject: Have a nice trip, Matt
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:31:49 -0600

I read your screed in the Gazette today and I just had to respond directly.

You and your message development cronies are missing the point. Nobody is listening to you any more.

While the press still sucks it up, the fact is, each column inch you get is another inch in the hole you are digging for yourself. Your "message" has no traction with the people who deal with the
consequences of your crap every day.

Kinda reminds me of Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove. You know you can't go back to your funders and admit you are wrong, so instead, yer gonna ride her down with the hopes that you leave a big crater at the end of a long ride to obstructionist hell.

Have a nice trip. Alone.

Dave Skinner
Box 1486
Whitefish, MT 59937
406-862-0058

Hey, Matt, thanks for reprising my letter.
I still stand by every word, I'm impressed you thought so much of it that you would squirrel it away in your computer for three years.
Let me tell you, endles repetition of the same old sound bites about 45 jobs and a million dollars, and of the ONE "former Forest Service district rangers," one "wildlife biologists," one "professional foresters" one "former loggers," one "WW II veterans" one "restoration workers hunters and anglers" you claim as supporters is NOT going to change reality. Repeating sound bites does not necessarily change the world, and people are not going to listen to lies when they can open their eyes and look upon the truth. It's that simple.
A million dollars of labor income versus millions upon millions of dollars in dead standing timber and thousands upon thousands of acres of at-risk forest about to be lost is a no brainer...except for the people stupid enough to listen to you.
Everyone knows that you and your bunch were kept out of the meeting because the only reason you wanted to be there was to utterly dominate the discussion in order to promote your kookiness.
Heaven forbid if the common man in defense of common sense ever get a word in sideways, or that a press person ever hear it and (gasp) get it in the news.
Face it, Koehler, but nobody wants to hear about your little community defense zone while everything else falls victim to your scorched-earth political mentality.
As for your "science" -- don't forget, when "values" such as those promoted in the value-laden field of "conservation biology" are allowed to override the science....the science itself has no value.
This is not a conflict over science. It is a contest between value systems. Period. I and millions of others value well-managed forests, strong economies (Teddy Roosevelt's "prosperous homes")and a good return to the Treasury. You don't...and stop trying to hide behind trumped-up science.
Ah, I feel better now. Have a rotten day.

I've just now come across this discussion. I would recommend that Matthew Koehler and everyone else simply ignore Dave Skinner. He is the classic know-nothing obstructionist that so characterizes the so-called "multiple use" movement. His letters appear frequently in Wyoming's state newpaper, the Casper Star Tribune, and his letters there show no more capacity for thought than do these screeds to Matt. Simply treat whatever he says as background noise. The cause of conservation is too important to let people like him divert us.

Why don't we all just ignore Matthew Koehler instead. Just like you people to classify anyone who does not agree with your position as background noise. Such arrogance!

Well Bill... I guess, if you think Dave Skinners first note was in anyway problem-solving, you've got a point. I however, fail to see anything other than rhetoric and name calling. In fact, I regard Mr. Skinners post as malicious and mean-spirited--almost evil, but certainly not constructive in anyway or form.

Sometimes the way to deal with contrary people like Mr. Skinner is to turn the other cheek; let them rage on as they need to and do the best job you can. Perhaps this is background noise. It seems that Mr. Skinner would rather not reciprocate the courtesy others have offered him—the freedom to think and believe as he feels as right. Mr. Skinner would like to force everyone to think as he thinks.

Bill- I hope you have time to see the irony of your own post--it’s pretty flagrant (ummm maybe fragarant?). ;-p

Hey Aeshna No Last Name Of Course,
Besides your being a little late, I wanted to thank you for raking this one up again. I just had a little field trip down to the East Fork.
All I can say is the mortality down there poses a safety hazard of unbelievable proportions. THousands upon thousands of acres of beautiful trees now dead as a doornail thanks to the beetles that came out of the Valley Complex. They won't be taking up any more water...and Matt and his cronies at FOB think a 400 foot "CPZ" is a reasonable approach?
I dare both of you simply to stand on the highway in the East Fork when the fires go off, as they will. But you won't...accountability is not in your vocabulary. Have a nice day.

Dave, I am actually more interested on where you are coming from than the forest management issues at this point. I know rhetoric is used support points of view, and the more money at stake, the more rhetoric gets piled on. your note where rhetorical and you failed to present a logical argument. If you want to be taken more seriously, I recommend that you try using logic. I am not just being cheeky, I literally mean logic: spell out premise-a and premise-b and make a logically deduced conclusion from each pair of premises. You can hurl insults at your adversaries latter (in truth, Matthew also could have clarified his position more logically as well.). You have an abrasive (at best) method of addressing issues and seem to assume everyone around you is foolish if they fail to support you. For instance, you know nothing of my vocabulary yet you feel qualified to point-out that it does not include the word "accountability." Are you accountable for the way you talk to people? I certainly hope you use more etiquette in your real-world personal communications; if you addressed me using this tone in real life, I’d slap you.

So, I wonder, what is your angle? Why do you think the way you do?
Are you a logger out of a job? Are you a Timber company CEO looking for easy money? Are you educated? Why are you such an angry man? Why so emotional about this issue? Are you psychotic? Are you trying to derail a discussion in which you have a vested interest? If there are any facts from your comments that could be placed into a logical argument (literally logical, not just "common-sense") they become lost in your hostility. You will a much more effective spokesperson for your view point by not verbally assaulting your audience.

You know what? I hope you have a nice day too.
Here’s wishing you peace and lots of cute fuzzy bunnies!

So, Miss No Last Name, you'd slap me? That hardly seems civil. And sort of risky in this litigous, liberalated age. After all, like you said, I'm ALMOST evil.
As for argument a, argument b...like I said, just go down to the East Fork and think if a 400 foot Community Protection Zone that would cost taxpayers a million bucks to implement will make a figs worth of difference when it all lights off, as it dang sure will.
Logic -- fire attracts beetles that snarf dead trees and then breed and fly off to eat more trees that die and become beetle food and so on and so forth. For miles and miles until they run out of food or get killed in a 40 below cold snap.
For Matthew, that's perfectly wonderful because it is a "natural" phenomenon...an obtuse point of view that most emphatically and deliberately refuses to recognize that North America has been a managed landscape for the last 10,000 years. Indians managed for a desired structure wherever they could. Period. End of story. Why is it wrong for white guys to do that as well?
Anyone who is not outraged at the travesty gone down in the aftermath of the 2000 fires lacks any genuine concern for the environment, or any understanding of what conservation really is.
And you bet your fanny I have a vested interest. I was raised in Montana and live here, with the consequences of all this tomFOOOOOLery. Never mind all the friends I have seen go down the road elsewhere because of it all. One thing about being a grouch, one picks friends carefully and I would prefer they were still around. These for the most part were decent folks of impeccable personal integrity, people who reflect the simple truth that who you are and how you look at the world depends on where you are from.
There comes a point when suffering fools cannot be done at all, much less gladly. Let me know when you've figured it out.

Oh. I think I have *some* of it figured out, Dave...

-Premise 1: beetles out breaks occur in burned areas.

-Premise 2: -Blank- (filled with your opponents views and a treatise on Native American resource management).
-Conclusion: none--not possible with out a second premise.

I am glad you are in touch with your inner curmudgeon- I respect that. Still, I fail to understand why you are so up set about the trees burning (which they will). Is it because you can't have them? Your friends that left you had poor career choices and should have stayed in school to attain a degree in computer science or something. You can’t blame the world (or the NFN)for their poor choices.
The global population crisis is going to affect all of us (you must realize that we cannot manage our environment like the Native Americans anymore, there are too many of us--it was very different before the European invasion)... the Native Forest Network people contend with the worlds demand for the resources--as you battle against the public’s demand for “natural space”... Your friends got hammered first, that’s all. You are all the same: tomFOOOOOOLery and all.

One more thing, Dave, I said you'd be slapped if you talked like that in person--if you are as rude in public as you are to people in this forum, then nobody should endulge your selfish vanity-- because you abuse those around you. You, know it’s that whole accountability thing. That being said, you have been moderately civil to me (more than to others)—appreciated.

No, you said YOU'D slap me.
Poor career choices. That's just wonderful, lady. So what the heck was YOUR major? I majored in biz mgt/mktg and am a quarter short in history and economics, for which I wish I had stayed.
But when you sneer about poor career choices, I must ask: Has it ever occurred to you that the people in these trades have skill sets worthy of respect? Have you ever watched mill workers or logging operators or farmers do their thing?
If not, let me put it this way: In a nutshell, they work in three dimensions over time, four dimensions if you will. It is a skill set that requires intelligence and focus, with consequences if either lapses...I know that the hard way.
Have you tried working in a mill or manufactory or harvested trees, or crops, or actually made anything with your hands? I doubt it, because then you would not dis those who have.
And yes, I would like to "have" those trees, to saw and mill and provide employment and pay for good schools and make money to replant a new, better forest our grandkids will enjoy.
Forestry science and practice is awful good these days, and part of the improvement is certainly due to environmental pressure. I will concede that much because I'm old enough to remember "before." But we are way past the point of diminishing social returns thanks to litigous entities like NEC, TECI, AWR... and thanks to deep-ecology, do-nothing, ecophiles such as NFN/NFPA et cetera.
Conservation is not about wasting time and resources, and that's all "environmentalists" seem to do. Enough already.

Oh yeah, I'd slap your ass. Heck, I'd give you a spin-kick to the head if talked to me like that in person. You, dear sir, brought your poor wayward friends into the discussion. The days of timber as an industry are numbered. Of course so are the days of our western forests. It is just a matter of time. If figure i am a little nostalgic I'd like to keep a few forests around for a while--even burnt ones. i mean, after you cut them all down you'll have to find a new job anyway... just a matter of time... might as well do it now, eh? Leave a few forests for posterity? I mean, if we let you cut every acre of public land you’d still be out of work in 10 years. Might as well get it over with and keep a few forests, right?

Back to your poor, displaced pals: I never said their was no value to their work, or that they had an inferior work ethic... or that is was easy... it just seems like y'all are trying to go back to the 1900's when there was limitless timber to cut. The reality is that that lifestyle is history... only a few can enjoy it. This is true about most "honest" ways to make a living... no such thing as a small farm anymore--they call them “hobby farms.” Ranches are disappearing fast as well. Not saying it should be this way... just the way it is.
Of course, there are other ways to pay for schools and other jobs... and you should prepare your children and grandchildren for them rather than blowing smoke up their asses and promising them a career as a timber man. That dream is dead--sadly.

I love your choice of words... "sneer." you know when you run out of trees to cut, you could write scary novels... novels printed on recycled paper... HA!
Have a nice day! :0)

Hah! I made YOU cuss first. You must really fer shure be one of those liberalated types. And you never did admit your major. I win, Mizz Civility.
One last point. This country runs on resources of some form or another, and the few who produce those resources make the rest of us possible. Who butters your bread? Or, how did your tofu get to your plate, and precisely how did that plate get to your table, and where did that table come from?
It is too bad that productivity gains have made it possible for .85 percent of Americans to feed the rest, for 1 percent of Montanans to produce the minerals Montanans and the rest of America needs.
You are forgetting something very important, and unless you remember it, you'll always be mistaken.

Thanks for the belly laugh.

Dave,
Got a good laugh out of your conversation with Aeshna.
Here is the simple solution, producers in America that are fed up with constant attacks from the left wing need only to quit producing more than they consume.

In other words, do as the deep ecology folks say we should and live 'sustainable' lives. By doing so, you achieve several noteworthy objectives. One, you deprive your opponent the opportunity to sit on their collective butts and critisize capitalists as they must then actually produce enough to feed, clothe and house themselves. Second, you deprive the federal treasury of the tax dollars to fund these groups as the dirty little secret of where their funding base really is today versus 10-20 years ago when it was mom and pop urban contributor. Third, you make time your greatest weapon.

Here is why.
Popular public sentiment is changing, all be it slowly, but it is changing in our favor. Simplistic alarmist rhetoric is wearing thin with the public at large concerning 'sky is falling' predictions of doom from the environmental community. Non of these dire predictions have ever come true. On the other hand, every one of the predictions of forest calamity from non management and the positive benefits of proper forest care have come true. Results are what the public sees and the opponents of forest management no longer have a stranglehold on the news cycle.

Further, when I state that time is on your side, keep in mind that all things go in cycles. The past thirty years have been the upswing and peak political cycle for the useless 60's generation types and their spawn. Their politics and forms of public pursuasion all falling behind forward pro-growth ideas from the subsequent generation. Aeshna mentions that worthy pursuits such as computer science and other technical or liberal arts endevours are superior to that of a life in forest management. This may be true from her viewpoint, however non of these pursuits are possible without the economic foundation of first dollar industry. The resources consumed by a technically advanced economy are not possible without extraction, production, smelting, milling or other conversion activities. Therefore, her lifestyle cannot exist without the support of surplus production of those who are 'pulling the wagon' if you will.

And finally, the federal state and local municipal budgets currently consume approximately 45-50% of GPD. Of this figure, on the federal level alone 60% of that budget is entitlement programs designed to provide perpetual power to politicians and bureaucrats. This spending level, mind you is before the afformentioned 60's generation that voted themselves these lavish benefits from the public treasury retires. At that point, the economic scale finally tips in favor of the small percentage of those of us who 'pull the wagon'. An economy that consumes taxes and levies that are in excess of 50% of GDP fail ultimately. The reason is that those who provide surplus revenue through hard work and thrifty behaviour will not continue to supply taxable surplus revenue to the treasury to fund these programs. The government is then left with a choice. Either cut benefits for existing receipients, or raise taxes. Working people will not pay the taxation level required to support lavish public benefits at this point.

Which brings me to my final point. Be patient. Reality will always rule the day. As much as our friends on the left wish that everyone would conform to their world view, the reality is that the harder they push for their socialist agenda, the more people they 'turn off' with constant criticism of honest family values, strong work ethics, resource based careers and the American ethos that provided freedom through blood sacrifice to over 1 billion people since our country's inception.

Their time will come to pass just as the Soviet oligarchy failed. Just as communism failed. Just as socialism has failed. They too will ultimately fail as their world view is not based in free expression. Rather, their system and world view supporting their position only can exist with judicial, bureaucratic, and social repression. Just as their system has throughout history. They ultimately will fail, it just takes time as their world view is contrary to basic human nature.

By the way Ms. Aeshna, I am a logger who happens to have a degree in mechanical engineering and international business. I am a benefactor to the Seattle Symphony, and I care very deeply about the plite of those less fortunate. I just choose to help out other out of freewill, not coerce others to pay for it out of guilt.
I am very proud of the work that I do as every day I try to make things a little bit better by the efforts of my own hands, not the destructuve power of the judiciary or public bureaucracies.

I am a free thinker and a free man in my own God given right.

Good day.


P.S.-The bottom line is that those of us who grew up learning how to care for ourselves in critical situations have the advantage over those elitists who hire others in one form or another to care for them. Every culture since the beginning of time has gone through this political cycle. Every culture until the end of time will continue to go through this cycle.

Hah, John, thanks for dredging this pig up from the deep. I enjoyed it all over again. You are correct about cycles, my main concern is if the swing of the pendulum fails to happen toot sweet then it may be at the point of no return in a civic sense.
Let's remember that the American Experiment happened in isolation in the North American Continental Lab. That pretty much no longer exists. So if we blow it, that's it forever.
Merry Christmas.