Wow. Important information for people to have. I dont disagree that it is probably discrimination. Another issue, why do banks appraise high when your selling and appraise low when re-financing? Twits.

P.S. I have never been a fan of Countrywide...not only white, but young and cute.

You have a HUD-coded "manufactured home" not a modular. A modular home is different. A modular is built to the UBC or IRC code. This is the same code that the local building departments follow. A modular home is treated just like a site-built by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

You are right your home is probably better built than 75% of the homes in your area. Unfortunately your home is built to the lower standard HUD code. Because of that you will find it next to impossible to find a loan program for cash out higher than 80% and a 20-yr amortization. FHA will allow for 85% LTV cash out.

Your problem is actually very common. All I do is finance factory-built housing (modulars and manufactureds) and I get call from customers in similar situations every week.

The problem is, as Chris said, that your home is built to a building code with lower standards. It doesn't mean that it isn't a great house: It sounds better than most of the homes people live in, especially older ones. The problem is that to stay in business, a bank has to assign risk premiums to certain types of loans that are scored through the performance of all those in the past that have taken out your type of loan.

If people taking out manufactured home loans had paid they loans and not defaulted at the same rate as stick-built homes, then you would be able to take out your home-equity line. Partially because of the lower price, and partially because it is a more temporary type of housing in most cases, people who borrow on manufactured homes are more likely to leave the bank sitting with a devalued product to sell at cut-rates. There is a company here in California called "Silvercrest Homes" that builds some of the nicest homes anywhere that aren't high-end custom homes. Most of their clients put the homes on real concrete foundations, and sometimes even on full basements. They have 2X6 walls, good insulation, and lots of frills. But because they are built to the HUD code with a steel frame on them, they have more difficulty financing and are valued lower than a lower-quality stick-built house.

The lesson is that as an investment, your money is more wisely spent on a modular that is built to the same code as a stick built (UBC/IRC), which finances, appraises, and is entitled like a stick built home, and not on a nice manufactured home to the HUD code that will bring difficulties to your life indefinitely.

I am going through this right now. I have two homes on one piece of land. One is a stick-built home. The other is a modular/manufactured, whatever you want to call it home. I did this because my parents were retired. Dad died; mom lives in the "stick-built home" because she can't get up the steps of the modular.

As the person above stated, my home is built better than most homes in this area. I had some work done on it when I moved in, and I was told by three different contractors that only top-grade construction materials had been used in this home. As a matter of fact, they had a hard time finding materials locally because of the quality.

My home is 2200 sq. ft. Three bedrooms, two full baths, two living areas, two dining areas, kitchen with center island and drop-in stove, master suite that is 1000 sq. feet with its own living area, five-piece bath, and walk-in closet (my bedroom is bigger than most 1-bedroom apartments).

The second (stick-built) home is 1600 square feet, 3 br. 1-1/2 baths, with log siding (it looks like a log cabin).

Upon appraisal of both homes on the one property, all the outbuildings (a 30 x 60 concrete floor barn; a second detached garage with an overhead apartment/loft) and the land, they appraised three years ago at $250,000. It has since been speculated to be worth close to $300,000 areas because of a new turnpike access nearby, which has pumped the property values up.

The mobile and land it sits on was valued at $120,000.

I am trying to get a home equity loan for $60,000 (1/4 or less the value of the total property; 1/2 the value of the mobile and land), and here's discrimination for you: The bank just told me that they won't give me a loan because there's a mobile home on the property. Why? They don't know. They're underwriters just won't do it.

That looks confusing. The bank keeps calling it a "mobile" home when in fact it is a manufactured home dropped onto a permanent foundation. It has a shingled roof, vinyl siding, and storm windows; for all purposes, it's a house, but because it was brought in on wheels, the bank is calling it "mobile." This is regardless of the fact that the home is now secured via foundation-anchored tie-downs to a re-bar steel reinforced concrete foundation that meets FHA standards.

And another clarification: The materials referred to above were difficult to obtain because they were so high quality, the contractors had to go to another city to obtain them because none of the building supply places here carried them. I had the work done when the home was damaged in a freak hail storm.


Regardless, the bank won't do a loan.

I sell manufactured homes in Northern Nevada that don't just meet HUD codes, but actually exceed them. One line of homes that we represent also qualify for FHA and VA loans and are qualified as VA certified home builders. We also have 12 floorplans (out of over 300 to choose from) that are built in a modular IRC version. Quite frankly, unless someone absolutely has to have a modular home to satisfy fussy home owners associations or CC and R's in an area, I recommend the HUD manufactured homes over the IRC every time. The modular do acrue more value on appraisal because they are appraised just like a stickbuilt home, and a homebuyer will usually move into their home with $50,000. in equity because the modulars are looked at differently. A modular however is not built that much differently then a HUD home besides a few things such as having 2 x 10 floor joists instead of the more typical 2 x 6 or 2 x 8 that you see in a HUD built home. They also will usually (but not always) have the I-beams removed and are crane set instead of "rolled" onto the foundation by a set crew, or driven in and partially set and then the foundation is poured underneath them. HUD manufactured homes are almost entirely built at the factory level and IRC (International Residential Code) or modular homes are instead completed in terms of plumbing and wiring at the site level by contractors licensed by whatever municipality the home has gone into and by those municipalities building codes instead of by codes set forth by HUD.
I myself bought a fairly sub-standard home before I was selling homes and my home does have structural issues developing. Because of this experience, I got into selling manufactured homes and have spent countless hours in educating myself regarding the differences, big and small, between entry level homes, (like what I bought and put $20,000. in extra options into that went nowhere toward improving the core construction of my home unfortunately!), mid-level homes, high-end homes and custom homes like it sounds like the writer of the letter I'm responding to bought. With this knowledge that I pass onto prospective homebuyers every chance I get, I seem to have made some enemies at the other retail sales centers because I do point out these differences, hand out articles I've written and other info I've compiled so that people are asking tougher questions when they go shopping for a home. I do feel competition is good for any industry, but rather then get sucked in by a slick sales person because people just don't know how to shop, I educate anyone that wants to read the stuff I hand out so they know the tougher more concise questions to ask. I'll even do a comparative study for prospective homebuyers between a home I'm offering and something they've seen somewhere else and if the other home seems like a good home for them considering all of the positives and negatives, I'll steer them to the competitors home if I think they'll be happier with that home in the long term and it's more of the floorplan they liked.
The way I feel is that the "used car sales" days of selling manufactured homes is archaic and should be long gone, and if I can help educate people so they won't make the same mistakes I made, then they'll be smarter shoppers and won't be sucked in by unethical sales approaches. All that said though, I do truly understand the need for entry level homes for people on a strict budget, (and far be it for me to tell someone they shouldn't buy a home and should instead rent forever), unfortunately however, most entry level homes will not even last close to a 30 year mortgage term (lucky if they go 10 without major problems) and these are the homes that give the industry a bad name that is unfortunately well earned from days gone by and also currently still happens when retailers won't come clean with their prospective homebuyers and are only into volumn sales and not the well being of the consumer. Sure, when you move up to a mid level home it will cost more. However, the longevity of the home will also increase and if this is explained to the homebuyer and they can also read construction info and studies and such, most people will manage to get a loan for a higher amount knowing their home will last longer and they will have more lasting comfort for their family and more "bang for their buck" too.
I recently faxed off appraisal info to an appraiser I've been working very closely with for a few years now and have had discussions with regarding the different levels of manufactured homes, and also construction of sitebuilt homes as well. The fax was 16 pages and included a lot of info regarding the home (very high end) and it's construction, additional options, standard features and warranties (10 year transferable structural warranty and also the HUD warranties). Also included was info regarding the costing of the development of the whole project from start to finish, comps in the area, etc. I've also spent a lot of time educating lenders, appraisers, realtors, contractors, etc, regarding the differences in manufactured homes as well. Most are really happy to know this info and when presented with it in writing and not just me saying it (because let's face it, a person can say whatever they want, but whether it's true or not is another story. I've also noticed too that while I will put info in writing and will initial or sign it as having come from me, many other salespeople sometimes are quite wary of signing regarding certain things they have said. Kind of curious I think), people when faced with facts and studies and such really can and do change their opinions and positions on certain subjects. I think most people are pretty intelligent and will make up their own minds when given info to digest. I don't see consumers as having "sucker" stamped on their forehead as my salesperson I'm sure saw on me. I think most people do want to become educated, especially on a purchase as large as a home and/or wrapped in a land/development/home project. I've not had one person "dis" the homes I sell and I also know that some of my previous homebuyers have had no problems whatsoever doing a refi or getting a home equity loan either.

My husband and I have just built a new website that just went online about a week ago and that will be a work-in-progress for a very long time, with new info added all of the time. That address is http://www.craftsmanhomesnv.com if anyone is interested in taking a look around. I've written a 13 page article that appears on the site that gives a step-by-step rundown on how a project runs in our area in Northern Nevada, but also into Oregon and Northern CA where we have also sold homes too. Hope some of this info helps and I wish the writer of the letter good luck in finding a decent and experienced lending institution to deal with. Some of my homebuyers have had very good luck with US Bank, Wells Fargo and also some of the various credit unions and mortgage brokers such as Washington Mutual.

P.S.--I also feel it's the salespersons responsibility to help their homebuyer's decide what is the best foundation for their home and investment because let's face it, this is a huge investment. I've sold a lot of homes and not even one of those homes has gone onto anything but a full perimeter stemwall foundation. Two have also gone over daylight basements as well. All of the homes I've sold have also been wrapped in a land/home finance package and are not personal property, but are real property instead.
All of these issues must be discussed with a prospective homebuyer in my opinion, otherwise I don't feel the sales person is doing their due diligence for their homebuyer.

My husband and I filed bankruptcy 2 years ago. We were told we should wait 2 years before buying a home. We are now looking to buy. We went to countrywide I did pretty much all the talking and asking questions. My husband is a quiet guy and doesen't talk much. The lender asked if we had looked at any homes yet I told him no I didn't want to get my hopes up and then be turned down. I wasn't even going to start looking until we were approved. There were a couple things we were disputing on our credit report. When he ran our credit scores mine was quite a bit higher than my husbands. So I thought they would go off my score. Countrywide told me they would have to go off my husbands score because he is the bread winner and makes a little more money about $2000 more a year is all. He told us about IHA and FHA that they had the lowest rates and we would get a $3000 grant if we attended a class. We attended a class which lasted all day. A few days later he told us he could't do anything for us until May 21st because thats when our bankruptcy was discarged. Now Countrywide is telling IHA will not help us for 2 more years could because of our credit, which is being disputed. If they went off my score we could probably get the loan. Why would't they use my score? Everytime Countrywide calls they only want to deal with my husband. I feel they don't want to talk to me because I am a woman. I feel I am being discriminated against.

Being a realtor here in California brings much hard sadness as I have seen much problems with folks attempting to get financed on Manufactured Homes. I, in my own personal opinion, feel it is discrimation. Think about it; people on race, religion... What is it called when you are turned down for a loan, either refi or heloc and 2nds. My MH has over 250k in equity and I can't use it unless I get a hard money loan (oh please!) Would people buy a MH if they knew they can't sell unless someone has loads of money due to finance? The constuction, in a matter of fact, can be more durable than stick built in many areas. Where is an attorney when you really need them? I disclose to all about what I know about the finance/resell problems. These homes are nice homes and if lenders can't loan, then the market shouldn't be allowed to sell them. They are NOT trailers or Mobile Homes. Knowing the difference between them is education in the area of these very nice homes. Sorry so long, although I have much to say. I sympathize with your situation and YES IT IS DISCRIMINATION in my eyes. Keep strong and hang in there as one day lenders will find themselves needing the business of those who have plenty of equity in our Manufactured homes. Take care. Terry

Here's my situation - We have a 1,000 sq foot Fuqua log siding mfg home in perfect condition on 15 acres in northern Idaho. Our plan was to add 1600 sq feet on to it and then I started hearing that the entire home would be considered mfg and anyone buying the property would have a problem with funding - in fact, the money we put into it would be devalued simply because it is connected to the original. My solution was going to be to move the mfg home and make it a guest house - after reading the prior info, I'm guessing that this will still cause a problem. Does anyone have more info on this????? I hate to think that I'll have to try and sell it or worse, tear it down - it's beautiful!

We are experianceing the same problems. We have a beautiful 1,700 sq. ft home on 21 acres with beautiful views. The land alone is worth 300,000 we owe 215,000 and wanted an equity line but it is manufactured (top of the line everything) so even with 100,000 in equity I could not get a 40,000 Equity line of credit, actually I could not get any amount nor a second. If someone knows of a class action suit against the major lenders that set the stupid policy of discriminating against one of the most efficent building methods, let me know. I will join in on any suit. They need to be held accountable for their unfounded prejudice. They are torturing an industry and the people who support it because they made poor investment choices. The lower costs put the houses within the price range of some of the higher risk people. And the lenders because of the low rates and greed lent to poor credit people the homes have nothing to do with it. They are just not takeing responsibility for the fact they made poor investment choices. The people with good Credit and a nice home on a permanent foundation should be given the same opportunity as any other home owner. The tax assessors office does not give me a break because my home was manufactured off site, it still considers it Real Property? And why is my home insurance hundreds of dollars more expensive? I am wondering why the manufactured home builders and industry are not doing more to stand up for themselves and their product.

I know it is very hard to understand the concept of the manufactured housing situation. I see more and more coming in on land, absolutely beautiful homes they are. Many you don't see as MH. Speaking from my own personal opinion and not of my profession. Me and a friend were talking about the developement and had wondered if there is some sort of idea to why financing is hitting to ZERO for manufactured homes. See mobile homes are pretty much what it sounds and yet I hear different??? From my perspective and experience from taking classes, mobile is a home with a steel undercarriage with all the fixings to move them out still underneath. Manufactured was a mobile home until it is permanently affixed to the foundation, then the tag comes off calling it now a single family residence. Prefab homes are homes that are pre build and come in seperate pieces and put together on site. Now you will hear differ in others as I have so it is rather confussing to say the least. One way or another there are more strict guidlines and requirements for a manufactured than there is of a stick/spec home??? Hard to explain as the mh construction is of 2x4 and even 2x6 studs. The homes cost less as they don't have mr hanky paying joe, larry, dan and all the crew to construct... if you do you see the cost rise and when you truly look at per square ft. cost hmmm! say it cost 80. per sq ft to construct a spec home of 1700 sq.ft.=$136,000. now go to the mh dealer and find how much a fully loaded 1700 sq.ft. home cost with delivery and hook up...
All you manufactured home owners don't get discouraged in the tactics to push one into having to pay a contractor to do a stick built home. Hey this is what my friend thought; she thought that it is a ploy to force out the mh and bring only themselves to business and the lenders are involved! Now I wouldn't go to think that fully unless one has proof!
But to look at adding onto your home. Yes lenders can and more than likely will look at your home to be still a mh. Speak with housing and building enforcer; ask for classification codes to a stick home, adding to a home... You might even beable to access on line? Building and Safety? Worth checking into plus It is a long process but if you are up to it, you might like the outcome and yet you might not. I babbled ehough, hope it works out. Yes, it would be nice for an attorney to view our communications here and give some help in the matter as it is getting worse... Take care everyone!

Whomever said that modulars are looked at the same as a site built home by lenders (and appraisers too) is correct. However, modulars are not typically built to a higher standard per se then a high-end (not a "disposable" entry level home) home. Sure, the floor joists are 2 x 10 in an IRC home because the I-beams in a modular are typically removed and the home is crane-set instead of rolled by a set crew. After that though, the biggest difference is that the electrical, plumbing and a few other items are not installed at the factory level and are instead installed to the county or city codes in which the home is going and by licensed contractors in those counties or cities.
I sell only high-end and custom HUD products (but can sell modulars through the factories I work with as well) and have never had a problem putting the homes I sell in site built areas, or in having my homebuyers get excellent refinancing from institutions such as Wells Fargo, US Bank, Washington Mutual, etc. I of course do provide 25 to 30 pages of info and other paperwork to the appraiser because I feel that just sending them the front and back side of the floorplan does not even begin to clue them in to the product that I sell or to the project that we are developing. Because of this, the appraisals for my homebuyers on initial purchase, and then also for refinancing if thats what they choose to do at a later date, always come in very high. You just have to go the extra mile to educate lenders, appraisers and any other players in the home/project development of what the real story is.

Absolutely perfect to what was just written on 6/6/06 regarding Wells Fargo, excellent lender to do business with and or check into refinancing. The MH that are difficult in getting financed are your older ones, I.E prior to 86 built. I have seen a few go FHA with 3% down, fico at about 665. The MH itself must meet the standards and the area with the comps. It is best to go direct to a person like the person who responded on 6/6/06 for their help. As it is, she is some one who sounds to be in the profession of MH sales. I send people to dealers for new MH and the construction set up. The cost is surprisingly low and yet I have seen some reallllyyy expensive ones too! They know the business and have much info to give to those who look for answers on MH and weighing options to their future purchases. I give thanks to the 6/6/06 writer for the comment to having to go the extra mile to educate lenders as well as appraisers, this is a very true statement. Again don't get discouraged with purchasing a MH.

Having built and sold Manufactured Homes for 35 years I am always suprised and the misunderstanding between Manufactured Homes and Modular Homes.

The simple answer is "Manufacture Homes" are built to the nation wide preemptive H.U.D. federal code and "Modular" homes are built to either the state version or the local version of the U.B.C code.

The true differences are more complicated.

When building to the HUD code, design and approval is pretty straight forward and not very time consumint, thus enexpensive.
When building to the UBC code, design and approval is up to the state, or worse still, the local building department, and thus more expensive.

Generally speaking, the main construction differences are related to the heating, water heater and in some cases the floor system.

If you put the 2 homes next to each other you would not know the difference.

The largest home I sell, 3600 sq. ft., can be built to either code.

The difference in price to the retail buyer is $ 81,349.
For the extra $ 22.97 per sq. ft. you get the privelage of making it easier to get the "appraisal" that the bank wants.

The difference in the cost of building materials between the two houses is about $ 2.78 per sq. ft. Most of this cost is due to the insane rule that a "Modular Home" must have the steel frame removed when the home is installed on site. This does nothing to add to the strength of the home or foundation, it just gives the powers that be some way to distinguish between the two.

I'll take the HUD home everytime.

In California, where i do buisness, over 95% of all Factory Built housing is HUD code.

Wells Fargo Manufactured Home mortgate as well as many other banks will loan, up to 95% on HUD code homes.

Well thats my two cent.
Good Luck

Two cents worth thousands, give more as those who come to read about MH and ask questions really need all that can be provided in those two cents. Truly makes a world of difference as those like T.Miller, who are experienced and knowledgable in MH. Bring more two cents to this NewWest.com!!!!!!

Did anybody say that there was some sort of class action law suit going on? I am in! I have over 130,000 in equity in my home and an excellent credit score. I can't even pull out 40,000 for debt consolidation. These lenders need to be held accountable for their poor lending practices. It's not the home that defaulted it's the borrower!! We all need to ban together to get rid of this discrimination!!

Did some research.... I am thinking a class action law suit based on information found on this site. http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/5000-3860.html

they are discriminating against manufactured home owners as a "specific group or class"

States are different when it comes to MH and the view of MH. I am happy to say that my clients just closed escrow on their MH on land. BEAUTIFUL home that offered over 2 acres of land, inground pool, detached 2-car... THE WHOLE DREAM... What should have taken 30 days took 65. MH went FHA w/3% down. Don't suggest FHA unless the sellers are fully aware of what can and will happen. The discrimination is amazing as even the majority of stick built homes are hauled in with walls/framing done and are no longer done on site as we all can see they go up pretty darn fast now. So what should we call them? Stick built because they have 2x4 2x6 studing?? Well so are MH, except the manufactures were smart to already have them built, then hauled in like the frames on stick built... HMMM, sort of makes you wonder how homes are determined now and days. Lenders should be made aware that folks who own homes are not going to take the non-sense either we live in a home, no matter how they are viewed or we live in trailers that have hitches and skirting. Shoo, even those would be difficult to haul out of a mobile home park... But reality is, mh is a home on permanent foundations. We are the sturdy ones people and some of our values are higher than those viewed by lenders "stick built". I have loads of hits on my credit due to trying to find someone to do an heloc loan. Dog gone if my own lender denied refi due to mh. Since I blew my cork at the fact of value, they have my loan. Year later, they are now doing loans on MH on land on perm. foundations w/3 to 5% down. Still discrimination??? Sure is to me!! Just to let you all know, we don't need to refi anymore (struggled to get things taken care of as we couldn't get it done) but the lender needs the business since the market took a pooh LOL, who is laughing at them, my husband and I are now. Take care every one, keep the communication up and hope for the best... Terry

this is bullshit

the newer manufactured housing is built the same or better than most stick built houses nowaday. I own a Mascot 1720sq ft MH built in 1995 on a perm foundation and tied to the ground better than a stick built attached to a basement. The house is constructed of 2x4 and 2x8 in 16in center, engineered rafters on 16in centers out of 2x4 the only difference between this house the one next door is 14 gauge wiring, which I have upgraded. But because it MH no bank will provide a home equity loan for any thing. I too have over 800 score and the current loan is with the ass wholes at BofA who will not provide a loan either, even thou I have paid the mortgage on time with 250 dollars extra every month for over 5 years.

This is discrimination!!!!

This house is not a trailer, they should be looking at the house in question not the type of house!!!!

Can you tell I'm a bit pissed, if I had paid $2500 to have the house crank set off of it's frame I could get a loan, that is crazy.

Sounds like a class action law suit to me, any lawyers out there.

I hope congress does away with the interest deduction, that way I can justify cashing a bond and telling this ass whole to go f&ck;themselves.

Let's keep the poor poor and the rich rich, what ya say, well not everyone who is rich, lives in the mic mansion down the road.

Sue the shit out of them!!!!!