Thank you for this informative piece! At least he admits to this. Now, how he can live with himself, I don't know. Inflicting suffering...? Aren't we beyond that or are we back in the Dark Ages...? And let's not kid ourselves about trapping as a form of wildlife management. It's completely market driven, and Brian Giddings was quoted in the Great Falls Tribune that due to European demand, the pelt price has gone up, and thus, so has the number of animals that can be killed. On public lands where we recreate and would like very much to see a pine marten or beaver or bobcat...

trapping is the sweetest sport out there no matter what anyone says

Well, Cody -
I'm glad you call it a sport and not a "way of life" and a "right." I'm sure the guys who still raise and fight dogs say the same. You who support a sport that involves inflicting agonizing pain and death have a different perspective than most others. There is a growing consensus that to get one's jollies by essentially torturing animals is deviant.

Please check my website concerning trapping on Public Lands. It is very informative! You can check this out at http://www.myspace.com/protectmontana. or email me at

We are slowly losing our rights! Don't let it happen to you!

Protect Montana?

Come off it, buddy. Since when does anybody have the right to torment animals, especially for fun? This nonsense about losing your "rights" by outlawing trapping makes as much sense as becoming all atwitter because if armed robbery is outlawed, guns will be too. Grow up paisano.

I am sorry that you have to respond to anyone in that manner. And I am sorry that anything that does not matter to you, shouldn't matter to the rest of America.
Public land is exactly that, Public. Is a trapper not part of the Public?
I just wish that people could begin to educate themselfs about both sides of the matter before they make comments and spread ignorance. I for one have seen many Pine Martin, Bobcats, and Beaver every year. And no they are not in traps. All you have to do is actually care enough about the animals to go out and watch them. Do some studying about them by actually looking for them. And all of those animals that were commented on above are mostly nocturnal, that means that they are active at night. The Pine Martin is a beutiful animal that is smart, shy and very accrobatic. He loves hunting in very early morning and very late evening. His favorit food is pine squirrel, and he will run through the tops of trees to catch him. I know this animal because I love this animal, as I do all animals. Lets fight for our wild lands to stop the animals homelands from dissapearing. The more wild land we lose the more of them will dissapear too. Go up against the true enemy of animals, " Human Advancement!"

Honesty is a Virtue.
Justice is a Right.

Goodness Gracious!

Did I read you wrong? You actually revere animals? You love them? You really go out and look at animals? Well, I'll be! You also support trapping. You're one of those guys who loves animals but torments them before killing them. Why don't you tell me about the ethics of trapping? Why don't you tell me that trapping is "hard love"? That would fit into your philosophy of nature-loving, hey? I'm all for protecting wild lands and conserving the animals' homelands, but even more than that I want to protect your much-beloved animals from indiscriminate and torturous slaughter at the hands of trappers. As for "human advancement," I suppose you mean "human encroachment." "Human advancement," I think, would be the antithesis of the mentality of trapping, which, treats animals as objects rather than living beings.

Old buddy, you should practice what you preach: "Honesty is a Virtue." Then maybe people wouldn't respond to you "in that manner."

I have told no lies to bring on your fowlness. I would like to believe that wildlands are worth the most, because animals can not live without them. And if you want to protect animals from trappers more than you want to protect the lands on wich they live, then I rest my case.

And I wrote exactly what I ment. "Human Advancement."

Your case is that it's perfectly alright to abuse animals. Why don't you explain why? If you love animals so much, why do you condone subjecting them to agony? I believe you support wildlife habitat because it provides a venue for your "sport" of trapping, not because you care for the wildlife itself. Your love of wildlife is disingenuous - it's a lie. Your enthusiasm for habitat protection is a blind to disguise your indifference to animals. Why don't you address the issue of the experience of animals caught in traps, and of the animals that are caught, killed and thrown away because they were not the targeted species? Is that ok with you - that brutal waste? Why don't you step up and answer these questions?

Protect Montana, you are excusing trapping by talking about the land. Is is not inconsistent to desire both preserving wildlands and the animals on them. While I admire your land ethic, it does not give you or anyone the right to horrifically kill the animals on it. Being a member of the "public" does not give anyone the right to do whatever they want with wildlife that belong to all of us, and to make a personal profit. Speaking of rights, what about people's right to hike and recreate without risking pets or encountering suffering wildlife in traps. I've had dogs in both a leghold and conibear. Both dogs were close to me, not off running unsupervised.

Taz, I do not condone subjecting animals to agony. Many people do not understand that there are methods of trapping that are humane. I as a trapper put this to thought every time I set a trap. I do not set traps that will torture an animal and I do not set traps were people walk their dogs. My love of wildlife has never been a lie, and it never will. You see I have the ability to look at your side of things, and I do understand your thinking. But I also understand that you are very uneducated in the ways that nature works, and what happens to animals that over populate. I have spent many years in the wild and have seen first hand what happens. These animals overpopulate and then there is not enough food for them to sustain their massive population and they starve slowly, it is horrible. I do not expect you to understand what I am talking about because you have already made up your mind that you are very correct.
Michael, thank you for your intelligent comments. I am all for preserving the land and animals that live there. One missconseption that I see a lot is that people often say that we own the animals. We do not own these animals, that is what makes them wild. They are free to walk and do as they please till the day they die. And as for you dogs, I am sorry that you had to witness that. I for one do not use large conibears for trapping and I have never caught a pet. And yes I make a profit off of the animals that I trap, but it is no different than anyone who sells any part of any animal. We need to understand in this world that we do rely on animals for many things. And most of you eat them. How did those animals come to end up on your plate? God gave us eye teeth for a reason, and that was so we could eat the flesh of animals. Just remember, trapping does not have to be a horrific injustice to wild animals lives. And remember that this is all watched over by Montana Fish and Game and these ladies and gentlemen do an outstanding job of protecting our wild things.
Thank you...

By golly, PM, you're right! Many people do not understand that there are methods of trapping that are humane. I'm glad you don't set traps that will torture an animal. What kind of traps do you use? Faery-dust traps? How nice. Too bad there aren't any. So I guess like most trappers you use a combination of leg-hold, Conibear and snare traps, all of which are brutally cruel. Like most trappers, you use a combination of beating and chest compression to kill the animals (standing on the animal's chests - how humane and loving) so as not to damage the pelt. You haven't a clue about my "side of things." You don't grasp the concept that animals can suffer, or perhaps you grasp the concept but don't care. If you think the only way to reduce animal over-population is by trapping, with all the needless suffering that entails, you must have forgotten about the more common method of hunting, and of course the age-old natural rhythm of predator/prey feast and famine as predator populations vary in synch with prey populations. This process has been on-going since predators and prey have been on Earth. One of the more preposterous claims of those attempting to defend fur trapping is that they are so wise in the ways of the wilderness. Anybody who observes, hunts or studies wildlife has at least as much knowledge as any trapper, probably more because they're not concentrating only on how to trap them. PM, you're still shying away from describing how you catch and kill your victims and why it's ok to abuse animals for, in your case, fun and profit? So, how do you catch'em and kill'em and how does it feel to beat a coyote and then stand on him, especially as how you love him so much?

I do not beat animals, or stand on them to kill them. I would only take an animals life if I can do it quickly. Predator and prey populations are not always in check, that is why Mother Nature does her part to correct that. This is done through disease and starvation, neither is the way I would want it. You do not know me, but you are quick to describe how I feel and how I do things. And in actuallity I do not trap coyotes, I hunt them. So lets quit assuming anything about me for your enjoyment and gain. I do understand your side of things and your thinking, but as you have noticed I do not make up lies about you sir. Speak what you know, and listen when you don't.

So, how do you trap your animals? I don't need to assume anything about you since you've told me you're a trapper. That's what this discussion is about - trapping. You never answer any questions about what and how you trap. So, what and how do you trap? How do you kill? If you shoot your take, you damage the pelt. In Montana, fur trappers use the beat and stamp method. So, are you different?

Mr. Alago. If you are so revolted by the thought of an animal dying then why do pressure so much for a detailed story of an animals death. And Mr. Alago, you have answered all of your own questions before you even ask them. Mr. Alago, have you ever killed an animal? Mr. Alago, are you a hypocrite?

Come on PM -

I'm not asking for gruesome details. I'm asking pretty simple questions which you won't answer. What traps do you use? How do you kill your take? You needn't go into details. Just a few words will be enough. Oh yeah, and how often do you check your sets? It's telling that you won't supply this basic info. Certainly "Foothold" Schutz had the honesty not to beat around the bush. I don't think what bothers people about trapping is the killing so much as the means. But you can clear this up for them, and me.

I read the article that "Foothold" Schutz wrote, and I would say that I have to agree with him. I think that Footloose took him out of context, but I agree fully with what he has said. And to fill your questions. I use snares, foot holds, and small conibears. And I use a rifle to kill any animal that is in a foot hold. That is how I do it. I check my traps every morning, and I stay away from populated areas with traps that could harm a pet. Now I have told you what you wanted to hear, so now answer my question. Do you hunt? Or have you ever killed an animal? Remember Mr. Alago this is all about honesty, right?

Well PM,

I'm sorry you don't use faery-dust traps but I'm glad you at least shoot your catch. Still, the animals can remain 24 hours in your traps with all that means - all that horror. You're the only Western trapper I've met who's told me he uses a gun on his fur take, not just on the unwanted animals, the reason being a bullet hole knocks a chunk off the price.

I haven't hunted in more than 20 years, except with a spear in the ocean, and I stopped that more than 10 years ago. My grandfather and my father both trapped when they were kids, and I did too - for about a week. Then I found I didn't like the taste of it.

You know, the problem for most people with trapping is not the killing but the way it's done. Anybody who drives a car has almost certainly killed animals. And as you have said, folks eat meat. But the recent stir over the way a California meat plant treated their down cows has shown that even meat-eaters want the killing done as humanely as possible. Trappers don't do their killing as humanely as possible. Even a kill trap such as a neck snare can take quite a while to kill, in a most gruesome way. Conibear traps sometimes grab an animal by the middle rather than the neck. That's an unbearable way to die. I don't believe trappers necessarily want that to happen, but they obviously don't let the possibility stop them. All this shows that whatever protestations of animal love they make, trappers go right ahead and cause all this brutal mayhem. Really, how can a normal person go on regularly abusing the animals he loves? So it seems to me and many others that trappers are being more than a might hypocritical when they claim to be lovers of wildlife.

The defense of trapping as a good commercial business/sport makes one wonder how trapping gets away with it. The commercialization of wildlife has been outlawed for almost a century. It's a felony to kill wildlife and sell it. Does anyone know why trapping is still legal? It's not only the commercialization of wildlife, but animal abuse, clearly.

I guess fur trapping is still legal because people don't know much about it. For many, it still has an image as romantic, the hardy trapper of old living the wild, free life of the unbound West. They don't connect it with the animals. Change can be slow, but public awareness of the brutalities of trapping is catching up with the public's clear disapproval of animal cruelty, for whatever purpose. And of course if you've had one of your own animals caught, it makes you wonder why these "land mines" should be scattered around public land to the detriment of the general public.

The sad thing is that people who trap and cause horrific agony and choose to behave in a sociopathic way, that is no concern/empathy for the victims, leads me to be very afraid of being "alone in an alley" so to speak with a trapper. Trappers, wake up and start to choose other ways of being in nature. Try enjoying living in peace with animals. For you own good, if nothing else.

Where are our wildlife agencies on this? Why don't they keep a record of non-target and endangered species caught and killed in traps? It seems like a cover-up. But why? Trappers aren't contributing to the economy, in fact they are thieves. Wildlife in Montana belongs to the state, not to trappers. Trappers contribute nothing toward protecting wild lands. They should be paying for the pleasure of killing for pelts, not receiving money for them.

Mr. Alago and all. If you are wanting an answer on why trapping is leagal and why trappers are able to sell those animals fur then ask the Fish and Game. They protect those laws and all others that have to do with the game animals of Montana. All trappers have to buy a license to trap in this state, trappers buy traps and the furs are sold world wide. So trappers do contribute to the economy. And as for the comment above about being scared to be in a ally with a trapper. I suppose a trapper could be prone to violence as much as any group of people in this country, but I know one thing. I would never hurt anyone unless I was defending myself. I have never been in trouble for anything and I have a perfect driving record. To be honest I am an outstanding citizen and I abide by all laws set by state and country. And if trapping was made to be illegal I would not like it but I would honor that law also. Eventually this is going to be voted on in this state and all you have to do is go vote. Our government is a Democracy, that means that the majority rule. I believe that it is inevidable that the populace of America will soften till we are all incapable and tamed. Why we are at it we should outlaw fishing because it is cruel. We should aslo outlaw all forms of ranching and meat processing because it is cruel. If you wanted to live in a place were peope do not trap and people do not hunt then you picked the wrong state to move to. And if you have always lived here then you should probably move to New York and leave Montana what it has always been and why I love it. Besides I am sure that most of you moved here to exploit this state and make a chunk of change as you ruin it. To leave this and end. My Montana has an east infection!

Nice pun, PM. As far as trapping goes, however, the eastern states have trappers too. But you're right, I think fur trapping will be outlawed eventually, as it has been in California, Colorado, Arizona, and Washington. But I don't think you have to worry about hunting or fishing. Hunting is considered ethical and humane (providing the hunter is a decent shot) and fish are not really perceived as the kind of animal one empathizes with. I do think hunting will decline though, especially as youngsters seem to be deserting the outdoors for computer games. I think state wildlife agencies will be forced by circumstances to see the light and start managing wildlife as a tourist attraction more than a hunting opportunity.

Well Mr. Alago, I like that pun myself. In fact it is my favorit. You have a wonderful life Mr. Alago and I am sure whatever is supposed to happen, will. It has been nice talking with you, and even though we are on different sides I think that you are a well spoken man. I know that you do not understand were I am coming from, but trapping is a big deal to me. I grew up trapping and even though it is impossible for you people to understand, I do love wild animals. I love the wilderness and would love for things to be the way they were a hundred years ago or even a thousand, but that is impossible. This world is changing for the worst, and we just have to ride it till it dies. In all reality we as humans are just a sickness to this wonderful earth. Give it to a man and he will destroy it. Put a man in a wonderful land and he will suck it dry till it is a wasteland of useless crap. Buy that virgin land, and slam your concret on it. Level those beutiful forrests to try to keep up with homes for your out of controle population. Make that money you bald rats, it is all that matters now. Make that buck and then go to your church and repent for your greed. All you have to do is repent and God will forgive, right?
Bulls%#t!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yup,

I can't argue with your take on the way things are, and the way they're going. Words fail me.

Nothing like a good serious debate to shine some light around.

As they used to say, PM, "Keep your hair on."

PM, Wake up and smell the East Infection. I come from the East Coast and if my memory serves me correctly the Military did not ask if I was from Montana in order for me to enlist. So after paying my dues (With no regrets!) to and for this great country I received an Honorable discharge. My point is I will live any "Dam" place I want to in the United States.
OK Big Boy lets talk trapping!! I am sure the day will come when trapping is outlawed in Montana. My only regret is that it was not yesterday. If you are such a great outdoorsmen and take pleasure or are indifferent to causing pain and misery my suggestion to you is join the military. However, I am sure that when the creature you are targeting to terminate is also trying to target you your position will change instantly. My guess is that you might find God and cut a few deals with him if he lets you live through the combat. Probably be smart for "You" to bring a change of underwear. With the kind of sick self centered attitude you have I am sure that your fellow servicemen and women would see little loss in lossing you.

Dealing with a little anger issue? I have full respect for all men and women in our armed forces, and would support them in any way I could. And anyone can live any place they want in this Country and I am very well aware of that. I also do not think that it is your place to speak of how all the service men and women would feel about me dying, and it is not like they would realize it anyways. Got a question for you Mr. Cooke. How am I self centered? I do not get an idea in my head and try to push it on the rest of society. I believe that everybody has their thoughts and preferences and they are entitled to them. And as far as an animal killing me, I would welcome that death far before I would welcome the world that people like you are building. Oh ya Mr. Cooke, I did not realize that God was lost, He just isn't coming back!
Cold and forsaken the ones they hold, the Lord above who's son they've sold. Dark crossed fingers rise from the earth to kill the child beneath the Lords hearth. Heavy the tears around the spire as the blood flowed and the light rose higher. The helping hands nailed in a grip, forthcoming the Lord and his one last trip.

Carrell 1994

I thought that you could use a little poem to lighten your day Mr. Cooke.
I hope you enjoy the rest of your life judging others and wading around in your self deluded ignorance. Good day to you Sir.

So quoting from the bible makes trapping ok? I'm lost here.
I have just come back from a wonderful trip to Yellowstone National Park where we saw many wonderful animals including wolves, bison, elk, sheet, deer and eagles. very beautiful day of seeing animals in peace and coexisting with humans. no trapping and hunting. beautiful.

In contrast to this peace I felt today, I read my email tonight and see stories of dogs caught in traps. AGAIN. it never stops. not to mention the endangered species that are caught, such as the wolverine, and not reported to FWP. There are approximately 200 wolverine left in MT. 200. A pregnant wolverine was caught in a trap recently and killed. I guess that makes the number 197 in a way.

I write to you 'Protect Montana' -your name is total BS. trapping is not justice. It is sick, inhumane, cruel, abusive, disgusting and makes me want to peuk. YOu are akin to a slaughter house. How dare you quote from the bible to make your point. whatever is convenient for you right?? I really would not know what it would take for you to see the light, but it doesnt matter. Those of us who see the light on trapping will change it for you. in other words no trapping on public lands! which is our right to feel safe with our dogs. and my right to see that yet another endangered species does not go extinct. Talk about rights.

Protect Montana,

I just wanted to thank you for your comments. I may not agree with everything you wrote, but it's so refreshing to see someone on this site who can hold a debate without desending into insults, hyperbole, name-calling, assuming about another's character and views, and just plain nastiness, even when that's nearly all you were greeted with in any opposing comments (excepting a few). You are a class act and I hope to see more from you! I applaud anyone who can look at both sides of an issue, make an informed decision, and debate about it civily.

Comes down to individuality...people don't like being told what to wear and what they can't do. Go ahead and try to make traps illegal or fur coats against the law. Keep your dogs on a leash and your head in a cubicle where you can be nice and safe in your Disney-esque world.

Hi Mary Beth

PM seems a genuinely amiable soul, doesn't he? It might be an evening well-spent to sit around the campfire with him and tell old stories. (PM, I enjoyed our argument.) But the issue of trapping, because it involves such heinous treatment of animals, arouses pretty strong feelings. And on the other side, people like "Flower Child" above can be pretty hostile too. A lot of the trapping defenders do so because they feel it's an assault on their freedom to do what they damn well want, and it just does not matter if what they damn well want to do involves extreme mistreatment of animals. So no matter how decent a person is among humans, his attitude to animals is what we're talking about here. Still, it's nice to do it in a civil way if possible.

Taz,

Agreed... yours were some of the more civil comments (especially the later ones). I wasn't choosing sides in the argument - the pro-trappers can be just as nasty, judging by some other comment/blog sites I've been on. It's just rare to see someone who is civil and polite no matter how the opposition responds to them!

I know these issues can get emotional. That's why whenever I respond, I wait a minute or two before I do. Then I re-read what I've written, and make changes based on how I would wish someone would respond to me. Plus, it makes your argument stronger when it's not based purely on emotion. That way, both sides can learn something... granted they are willing to have an open mind!

Thanks to you both for a great debate!

Protect Montana, I agree with you on how people, in general, will destroy everything in order to make a quick buck. And I appreciate how you remain civil during a heated debate, but I still disagree with trapping.

Part of the problem for trappers is that more and more people are moving and reproducing in the west, and more go into the outdoors every year, also more crowded, and have encounters with traps, usually unpleasant.

I am not an armchair outdoors person. In the last 40 years I have spent over 1200 days in the Idaho wilderness areas, hiking, backpacking, kayaking, rafting, and even hunting. In Idaho, trapping is so unregulated trappers can set traps right on the trail tread of USFS trails. There are many areas I won't go in the trapping season because the trapper has, in effect,"locked" me out with his or her activities.

There is always the hassle with dogs, but I personally dislike finding trapped animals in traps even more. Over the years, I have only found dead animals in traps, but I know if I found a live one, though illegal, I would release it. This kind of stuff bothers me personally.

There is a big difference between hunting and trapping. For example, I did a week backpack along the Middle Fork Salmon River in Idaho this past October with two dogs. I encountered many hunters and we visited and they shared their hunting stories with me. I don't hunt anymore, but I used to and I understand why they enjoy it. Anyway, their hunting activities did not impede my trip or affect me in any way. In contrast, if I was to go along the same river in winter, which I've done in the past, I would encounter numerous traps and snares on the trail, which would cause the obvious problems with my dogs, and the unpleasant possibility of encountering a wild animal in one.

I realize the sight of suffering, doomed animals does not bother everyone. It's why I quit hunting. And have virtually given up meat in my diet. It is a major reason trappers and trapping opponents will never be able to understand each other. To trapping opponents, it is incredible cruelty, but for trappers, that is something they can overlook and get past.

Thank you Mary Beth, and Flower child. I just wanted everyone to know that it is not just trapping that I believe in. It is just a small little nitch in the whole picture, that is just what this argument is about. This country has changed, it has grown sour. Dads do not stay home to raise their children, and mothers have no one to support them. People are greedy, and truly don't look out for anyone but themselves. I believe that we have a huge change to do here, but we are bringing up battles about trapping. These people spend tons of money to go after a group of people that are such a minority in the first place. That effort could go to something far more important. Since when in this country did we make a dog more important than it's people. And I know what some of you are going to say, but if they really cared about the people in this country then they would have raised money to help a true cause. They would have looked around and seen that our children are in a bad place. That is what originally angered me about this, we have all these problems and they are concentrating on trappers. There is an epidemic in this State that is destroying families faster than I can write. Meth has taken its hold on us, and it is going to continue to spread. The more I write about the trapping, the more I feel guilty to not speak out against the true problems. So I would like to fade away from that talk, and I would like to move on to something that really counts. I would love for anyone who wants to support Montana to join my cause. Protect Montana doesn't mean trapping, it means exactly what it says. I just started this and I do not plan to stop, nomatter what you spit at me. If trapping is abolished, then so be it. I can live without it, even though I do not want to. So waste our time and waste our money and go after your trophy Footloose Montana, I just can not push past my conscience to continue wasting all of my time on something that will not matter in the end. Trapping doesn't help hold families together and it does not protect those in need, so let us keep it a tiny part of the fight.
Contact me at

You can talk about whatever you want, and I will respond as fast as I can. Remember Montanans, togetherness means power. The power to make a difference.

You can also contact me at. http://www.myspace.com/protectmontana.
Spread this word, to whomever you can. And anyone that supports Footloose Montana, you are very welcome to contact me. We can have different opinions and still work for the good of Montana togather.
And I just wanted everyone to know that I did not quote the bible above. That was a peice that I wrote when I was in highschool.

Thank you

Protect Montana

Michael, I am sorry, I must have overlooked your last post. Thank you for that post, it is the most intelligent writing that I have seen from people against the trapper. I have to say that I do understand were you are coming from and what you are saying. I guess that I have just put a lot more thought into how I would effect people with trapping than others do. But I will always feel that stopping trapping is not the answere. It has a purpose that most people will never understand and one that I am growing tired of trying to explain. I believe that all people need to fight for what they feel. I just ask one thing from you and all others. Know what effects your actions will have on all things before you destroy something. And if you truely look at it from all angles and you feel that it is wrong then by all means try to stop it. But as for me, I say do not stop the trapper just regulate a little better who does it. There are some people in this country that we will not sell guns to, so maybe there are some people that we shouldn't allow to trap. Just a thought on common sence.

Thank you

Protect Montana

Oh PM -

The anti-trapping cause is a true cause. True causes aren't limited to humans. Not all of us are so species-centric as to ignore the plight of non-humans. The knowledge of what's constantly being inflicted on animals by trappers (and others) causes real pain to some people, as you can see from the comments above. I can't think of any bad effect resulting from ending fur trapping. If you're referring to the loss of some incidental income to the trappers, I would say the same applies to mugging old ladies: sure, you can make some money, but it's a wretched thing to do. If you're referring to the purported incidental positive benefits of sport trapping to wildlife management, then I will say that the benefits can be attained through hunting, that much wildlife management has been legitimately questioned by professional managers and biologists, and that if traps were judged by the cruelty they inflict, they would never be justified.

I'm sure all those wishing to end trapping in Montana have plenty of other causes they support with time and money. We are not single-mindedly obsessed by this one issue to the exclusion of all others, although I admit it might seem so at times.

As to better regulating trappers, even good fellows like you cause a power of agony with your traps, so I don't see that as a solution. I don't know, maybe there's a faery-dust trap in the far future, but I haven't heard even a whisper about it, have you? And it would have to discriminate between intended and unintended victims.

Hey, how come this sudden concern with people anyway? Not long ago you called them "bald rats"?

Well, trapping aside, it sounds like you wish Montana well.

I find it very interesting "protect montana" that you bring in the whole patriotism, constitutional rights paradigm into a discussion about inhumane, cruel trapping. That is the same tactic that people use to justify the "war". same bs. You have not talked about how you kill your animals caught in a trap. do you bludgeaon their heads? shoot them between the eyes? Stomp on their necks to suffocate them? I have seen how it is done. It is disgusting. And I will not stop the emotion that I feel knowing this is happening. Let alone it happen to my dog, a being that I love, raised from a pup, provides me with happiness from an otherwise crazy human world. my pup does not provide me money from its pelt, like your trapping provides you (what is real job anyway?) but she provides me with never ending loyalty, love and companionship. she gets the same respect back. Now I'm sounding like a true 'Flower Child'.

And Mary Beth, I think you should get off the fence and look at pictures of trapped animals and imagine your own foot, or your pet's foot lodged in it. or better yet, imagine a snare around your dog's neck. How much time would you have to get it off? Do you have dogs? doesnt sound like it but maybe you do. The non-emotional talk is bs too. This is an emotional subject. If we tip toe around it nothing will change. Was civil rights a non emotional bland subject? no. and what did they accomplish? some progress. before you have a cow about me comparing civil rights to banning trapping, think about it. When we perform cruel acts on any being what does that make us? Think about the downer cows ? do you think this society is especially high end?

Mr. Alago, we are bald rats. I just think that it is time we try to rise above that. And no I do not put myself above that statement. And you say that the people that are fighting to end trapping are putting money to organizations that help the people. If that is true then I would like to see that, and I would like to see how it compares to the money they have spent on this. I have always had a deep concern for people, but that doesn't mean that we do not dissapoint me. I just hate to see energy this great go to something like this, right now. How can we help anyone in this world, be it animals or people if we can not even help ourselves. And as far as the war goes I would have to say that it is well justified. Sometimes I think that people forget how many Americans died on our soil. But then sometimes I wonder if it is time we left that place. It is a touchy subject with a million seperate opinions.
Gline, I did tell how I kill animals, all you have to do is read the whole thing before you write. And the love you have for your dog is wonderful and you are correct about their loyalty. It would be wonderful if all of humanity had it in them to hold the loyalty and love that a dog can show. And there is nothing wrong with sounding like a flower child. Now, for your judgement on Mary Beth. That is ignorant, and I must say again that you need to read before you write. Mary Beth only stated that she liked the way that I presented myself, she never once said that she supported trapping.
I am not sure if you are asking me what my real job is, but I must ask. Why is that important or relevant, is it so you could possibly class me or judge me a little further. If you must know I am an electrical apprentice.
You asked, When we perform cruel acts on any being what does that make us? My answer is Bald Rats. Are we not the same creatures that have taken advantage of every miracle that this earth has given us. And if one of you are sitting there thinking that you have never performed a cruel act apon anouther being, then you need to take a deep breath and brace yourself for reality.
Gline, were is the correct place to bring in what you called patriotism? I call it looking out for your friends and neighbors, but you call it what you like. And you can get as angry and as blind as you wish, but none of you can deny that we need to fix this country first. You cry about an animal in a trap, but how about a child living in a home with parents that are cranked out of their minds on meth. How about that childs anguish, and neglect. I am probably going to catch a lot of hell over this but...
How in this world can we empathise over animals being trapped when their are people going through a long drawn out hell before they die. We are not talking a couple of days or even a couple of weeks. So shut the hell up about this whole pile of crap and get off your ass and help do something about your brothers and sisters that are tortured for a lifetime. Don't you people ever get sick of hearing your minds let out the same dull drone that you have somehow mistaken for heroism. And if it is animals that you absolutly have to protect then help your humane society. They save hundreds of animals every year that people are supposed to look after but instead neglect them. The humane society could have put all this time and money to good use for animals that thought we were their friends. You people have hit a spot in my heart on your trapping subject, but you will never and I mean never gain an ounce of my support until you fix our childrens world first. You know I am right, you just have to admit it to yourself. And with denying it you are denying our childrens future.
I will even go as far to say, that if somehow you people could help get enough of the population to help a true cause. A cause like making neighbors, neighbors again. A cause that protects our children, and our future. Then I would without a doubt sacrifice my love for trapping, in trade for a better world.

Absolutly!

Protect Montana

PM- This blog is not about human suffering, unless, you have lost your pet in a trap. Nice try though. There are plenty of other spaces on the net re: human suffering that you can spend your time on. In fact, if you stopped trapping, you could devote more time and energy to your "brothers and sisters". Have you donated to any human charities lately?

Back to the real issue of this blog without diversion/distraction:
I see one tiny sentence stating: I use snares, foot holds, and small conibears. And I use a rifle to kill any animal that is in a foot hold. That is how I do it." Not a lot of time given to the specificities of how you trap. A lot of emotion and time spent on justifying your "sport", though.

It really doesnt matter the length of your reply- your trapping is disgusting, cruel and inhumane, whether you are shooting a trapped animal, or standing on its chest. Other trappers will use all methods I mentioned above to kill the animal, and save the pelt. Perhaps you are using a more 'humane' method to kill them then slowly suffocating them. I cant say that makes me feel any better, as even if you did check your traps regularly as you say you do, say within 24 hours, that animal is still stuck in a painful trap for a long time with no water, elements which can include snow, rain, extreme cold, and other predators. Just think of being stuck in a trap for 24 hours yourself (with no cell phone!) That is where the real issue lies though, as you probably see yourself above animals. How else could you do this? I am close to animals, I know them and I would never do this for money. I have lost animals to traps and no I couldnt prove that with a court document, but they disappeared and it was well known the neighbor trapped. I was told to forget it, oppress my feelings. Told to dismiss my feelings, just as you are now.

The above title to this blog says: "A Montana trapper has publicly confessed to animal abuse". This blog is not about the pretty, warm sport of trapping. It is about condoning pain and suffering ...

Hello people.

I found this page through google shortly after I began reliving horrible memories from my childhood of when I use to trap. Although I quit by the time I was 18, after almost 20 years, I still sometimes find myself reliving some of the worst days I had as a trapper. I learned it from my foster father who taught his youngest son (one of my older brothers) who also passed on his teachings. I caught my first mink when I was about 10. I got $60.00 for that. Living in the sticks far from any cities or even fair sized villages, this was a big deal for me and I was hooked. One of the worst memories that still haunt me to this day is when I caught a raccoon. This wasn't no little raccoon either, it was a fair size in a foot-hold trap. I'd been wanting to catch some of these because of seeing what my brother and father were receiving for their pelts. By this time, I had already caught a red fox accidentally in my weasel trap. One quick knock to the center of the head and it was out cold. From there I was able somewhat consciously finish the job. Raccoons, I quickly learned were quite a different story. I may have been about 14 at the time. One quick knock barely phased him. He basically got back up and looked at me as to say "what are you doing!!!". Just as if it were a little person. My stomach churned as I forced myself to continue. I had to put this animal down. I considered myself to have a substantial swing too. By the time I was up to 4 or 5. I burst out into tears. At this point, it was too late to turn back and try to release it and I still had to finish it. I remember staring up at the sky and asking why I had to do this. All I could think of was what that animal was going through and how evil it made me feel. Although I continued for 4 more years, I never attempted to do that again. I used a 22 rifle.

I wanted to see if I could find anybody else out there who has shared a similar experience or feelings as I did or if I was just a different person caught in a trappers body. I love the wilderness and have since I can remember, but once I moved away and got into civilization and making substantially more money doing "civilized" things, I have never once felt the need or desire to do that again. I've heard many of the stories of population/disease control and I use to fight the same battle, even after the incident, but today I cannot even entertain the idea. True, I can't help myself follow tracks once in a while or visually layout a set when I see an ideal spot, but to actually do that again, I cannot unless I absolutely had to in order to help my family or myself survive. I use to tell myself "it's another way of nature, even bobcats torture their prey for some time", but I realize now that even still, it's quite different. I'd like to remain neutral on this debate, but if I had to choose, I think I'd have to go against trapping, but not without holding the respect for the trapper that consciously tries to be as humane and respectful (to the victim animals) as they can. I've been there and now I'm on this side of the fence looking back. My only regret is that I cannot go back and do things differently.

Gline,

Thank you for proving my point... when people get over-emotional, they can't even read a post correctly before hurrying to their keyboard to type down some incorrect rhetoric.

As Protect Montana so correctly pointed out, I never once stated I support trapping. I was simply giving kudos to PM for his intelligent, civil, informative dialouge. Point of matter, I don't support trapping, but I support his right to express himself without the usual idiot-liberal-right-wing-Democrat-go-back-to-California-who-never-has-even-been-within-1000-miles-of-a-forest talk that these posts so often devolve into.

Go back and read where I wrote "I know these issues can get emotional." Sure, your willingness to jump to conclusions about me got me a little fired up at first, but I took a deep breath, and waited a half-hour or so before I responded to you in a civil fashion, without calling you names or making assumptions about you. And PM is a perfect case of letting emotion show through without over-ruling all logic and common sense - it can be done!

It gets old very quickly trying to have a civil, intelligent debate with people who don't even take the time to read the posts they respond to.

Dear Fly on the Water,
Your story is painful, and universal. We've all caused pain out of ignorance, and we learn from it, at least one hopes we do. That raccoon changed you forever, and saved the lives of many other animals you would have trapped. Thank you for reminding us all of the real horror of trapping and of our humanity.

That was very well said, Fly On The Water. Had a similar experience myself, came to the same conclusion.

Unlike you PM. Returning to the subject of trapping, PM, which I know you would rather not discuss, seeing as how you've exhausted the meager resources available for its defense, which are a) it's legal and b) "I want to do it," I will say that loving humanity doesn't exclude loving other creatures on this planet. You are contradicting your own statement about making assumptions about people. I guess the case you're angling after is that even trappers can be decent caring people, and for all I know that may be true. But so what? They still do what they do, and what they do is hideous.

We've been talking about Montana here, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the commentators are from other states. There is increasing awareness of the extent and evils of trapping in states that have not yet put this miserable practice to the sword. I think, PM, you'll have ever more opportunity to get off the subject on other comment sites. TrapFreeOregon (trafreeoregon.org) is beating the drum and TrailSafe Nevada has won some initial skirmishes in their state. As an aside, I will mention that last week the Oregon legislature passed a bill tightening the law against dog-fighting, another example of public hostility to animal abuse.

I have read this blog in its entirety. It seems the argument here is how trapping is "cruel," "hideous," "inhumane," etc. I can't help but feel the hypocrisies as I read this. The amount of animals that are taken in traps every year is so minor compared to the amount that is taken other ways such as vehicles and hunting. And the manner in which they suffer is certainly no better. In fact, often it is much worse. As far as vehicles go, millions of animals are maimed by them every year. Some die instantly others are only wounded--left to die a slow miserable death that may take days or weeks. Tell me how is trapping more inhumane than this? Or for that matter as inhumane. Both are direct causes of man. As for hunting, you can make the same comparison. I am an avid hunter and if I take a shot at an animal, even if it appears not to be hit, I will do a full investigation as to whether the animal was hit or not.There have been times when animals would have been left wounded if I did not practice this. Sadly, there are so many hunters that do not practice this. They will take the shot and if the animal does not appear to be hit they will go about their business. Consequently, every year thousands of animals are left to suffer and die a miserable death at the hands of hunters, far more in numbers than animals taken in traps. And most often a longer, more grueling death than by that of a trapper. This is not to say there there are not a lot of ethical hunters because there are. So what's next, are you going to try to abolish hunting in Montana? Or perhaps driving? If you are going to hold true to your cause you better. Your cause is to stop unnecessary suffering of animals isn't it? Or is it to keep your pets safe? Because they are included in the above animals as far as vehicles are concerned. Far more pets are killed by predators, like coyotes, every year than by traps. So trappers, by controlling the population of such predators, are actually doing pet owners a favor aren't they. If you don't believe me on the numbers, research it or you can just use common sense. Once you find out everything I am saying is true I hope you have the strength to look yourselves in the mirror and realize the hypocrisies of your cause.
People of Montana and of this nation--be aware groups like this are slowly but surely widdling away at our rights. Next it will be hunting and ultimately our second amendment, the right to bear arms.
Please support Protect Montana. It's not just for Montana it's for the nation. Its not just for trapping, its for all your rights.
In our travels to where we are going let's not forget where we came from. Let's keep it real. Lets keep it fair for all mankind.

Have a nice day,

Jim

Should we start over at the begining? Read this and hear the words in you heads. Not every person in this world has whatever it is inside to kill, and I believe that not every person has what it takes to live. Every mind is different and that is what makes this world balanced. Death is a part of life and most of us find ourselves incapable of accepting death. Most of you on this sight are the kind of people who wish to ignore that you also are killers. Just because it is not your hand that kills the animal, it is still your hand that feeds that meat into your mouth. I for one admit whole heartedly that I am a predator. I was born a predator and I will die a predator. I do not talk sideways about the subject and I do not contradict myself. I kill. I do not take animals were they are at healthy numbers, and I never take more meat than my family can eat. I am conciouse about every aspect of it. I would never find a sadistic pleasure in slaying a creature of nature. You cannot understand this because you cannot understand how I think. When I kill a animal, I sit down and thank him. And when Hunting and trapping season are over I consider it a time of peace. At this time I do not kill them. I have taken many wounded animals in my lifetime and nursed them back to health. Some of them I could not and I was always sorry for them. To some people this is consider a contradicting mind, but in actuallity it is a complex mind that deeply understands the importance of life and death. If you are going to trap, hunt, or eat meat you need to should understand this circle. Before you kill, you should know your prey. And you should have the heart to feel for him. I refuse to let anyone tell me that I am sadistic, that I am cruel. I am never cruel, and I hold a great amount of respect for all living things. And yes, I have cried over a animal that I killed. I made a bad shot on a deer when I was young and had to track it. My bullets fell out of my pocket and all I had was a knife. I had to stab that knife into the lungs of this buck and sit and watch him die in a bad way. I cried while I watched my mistake and I swore to that deer that I would never take an unsure shot again. So don't tell me that I as a trapper or hunter of animals I am sadistic. It couldn't be farther from the truth. Just because you cannot handle it doesn't make it wrong. And it doesn't make you right. Why do we think that with evolution that somehow should, or could bypass death and killing.

Thank You All

Protect Montana

This is directed solely at Taz Alago.
Taz, I read your piece on "A trapper confesses" and frankly I cant believe it was aloud to be published. Its slanderous content is remarkably ignorant. Particularly the comment "This trapper's candor exposes the attitude of trappers to animals." You are taking the words of one person and applying it to an entire group of people. Do you realize just how ignorant,irresponsible and childish that comment is? I am certainly not going to go away from this feeling like your candor exposes the attitude of other Journalists. We are all individuals. As for for individual, you have lost my respect entirely.

Wow.

PM has a buddy. Listen, guys, billions of animals are killed every year in the USA. Most are slaughtered for food. Laws are in place to minimize the suffering when they're killed. They may not always be obeyed, but that's due to problems of oversight. Millions are run over on the road, killed by flying into windows, power lines, what-have-you. Millions are shot too I guess. But the drivers are not trying to kill the animals, the hunters are not trying to torture their prey, and as Jim says, they track down the wounded. That's expected of hunters. But minimizing the suffering of their prey is not in the trappers' rule book. The trappers just don't care what their victims experience, and they know in advance what that experience will be. Hunters don't expect to wound, they expect to kill. With the most commonly-used traps, trappers expect to wound, they do not expect to kill. Honestly, PM, how you do go on about your love of animals. It's become really creepy. Oh, and I must remind our readers, if there are any left, that we're not talking here about the actual killing, but the way the killing is done. We're not really hypocrites, boys, we understand about death. Lots of us are hunters, too. No, I think all this trapper-talk about how much they love their victims is just laughable, except that it's so weird.

Jim, the old canard about how trapping is a big mossy rock on the way to abolishing the Second Amendment is as convincing as the argument that if they outlaw snowmobiles in Yellowstone, next they'll outlaw cars. No no Jim, don't get excited! I just made that up, it's not really true.

Mr. Alago, All killers have victims. There are trapping laws in place to minimize the animals suffering. Now that does not mean that every trapper obeys these laws, but those laws are still in place and should be followed for many reasons. I am growing tired of your out of place comments, and I hope that there are people out there that can see through your deceit. I care very much what animals experiance and I do everything that I can to be as humane as possible. And if a trapper does not expect to kill then how does he get the pelts? The only reason you say that my love for animals is creepy, is that with saying that you hope it will somehow help your cause. And it may, but it is still deceitfull propaganda.
Mr. Alago, you can always tell when someone feels cornered with their lies. They resort to sarcasm, and make jokes out of the situation. Just like you have just done. I think that Jim has flustered your mind, I think that he has made a real valid point that you have obviously avoided for a very good reason. You never once bothered to defend yourself when he stated that you are slanderous. What kind of a man would allow someone to acuse him of something like that and not defend it if it was not true? Mr. Alago, I think me and you both know that you have been very deceitful throughout this.
Thank you Jim from the bottom of my heart. It is very nice to know there are people out there that can truely see reality and have the guts to speak out.
I want more from you trappers, hunters, and anyone who feels that it is right to put an end to the fraudulent words against the trapper.


When a man lies he destroys a part of the world.

Sincerely

Protect Montana

http://www.myspace.com/protectmontana
Please! do not be quiet any longer. Remember, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. I know you are all quiet, peaceful people but now is the time. Thank you again, Jim, Flower child, and Cody!

Mr.Alago your ignorance truly proceeds you. I am astonished every time I read what you have to say. I dont have a lot of time to address this last outburst. Fortunately PM did a very nice job of it . Thanks. I will say this-- Taz, I was not trying to make the point "hunters" track down their kill and you know that. My point was clear.It was that and I quote "Sadly, there are so many hunters that do not practice this. They will take the shot and if the animal does not appear to be hit they will go about their business. Consequently, every year thousands of animals are left to suffer and die a miserable death at the hands of hunters, far more in numbers than animals taken in traps. And most often a longer, more grueling death than by that of a trapper. This is not to say there there are not a lot of ethical hunters because there are." And further more I am sure there are a lot of ethical hunters that would agree with this fact. I request this of you Taz, please stop taking everything people of opposition say out of context in in a feeble attempt to gain support . I for one grow weary of it.
Like I said before people lets keep it real.Also lets keep it honest.
Have I nice night.
JIm

Well PM, what this is all about is not allowing trappers to get pelts by trapping. You can hunt'em.

The trapping and killing of non-targeted animals made news in The Bismarck Tribune on Feb. 26. (http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2008/02/26/news/local/149712.txt) with a story about four cougars dying in traps so far in Western N. Dakota this season. The most recent was a 5-6 month old female, whose paw froze in the trap. The cat was alive but had to be euthanized. The others were found dead. The wildlife officer said if it was an older cat, it could have survived with just three feet. Earlier this year a story in the Jackson Hole Daily (http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=2626) described how a Wyoming trapper killed at least 16 deer over a three year period in neck snares. He was trapping coyote and bobcat. Despite catching the deer, he continued to make sets in the same places year after year. He reported each catch. He figured as long as he wasn't breaking the law, there was no reason the change his habits. His case illustrates the harm trapping does to nontarget animals. Studies have found that two or three animals are trapped for every targeted animal. Here are three studies to start with: T.N. Thomas and J.E. Forbes. "Coyote Depredation Control in New York" USDA-APHIS-ADC. 1990 (10.9 to 1); D. Randall. "Hearings before the Ninety-Fourth Congress...Trapping of Animal and Birds." US Govt. Printing Office, Wash. DC. 1975 ( Randall was a retired gov't trapper and said the ratio he experienced was 2 to 1); G. Proulx and M.W. Barrett. "Field Testing the C120 Magnum for Mink. Wildlife Society Bulletin 21 (1993): 421-426 (73% were non-targeted).

Let's take a look at what trappers give back in the form of conservation work. NOTHING!
I've been involved in riparian, rangeland and stream restoration for many years throughout the Northwest where I've worked shoulder to shoulder with representatives of TU, RMEF, county volunteer projects, just to name a few. I have NEVER heard of, or seen, a single trapper participate in a conservation project. They take advantage of the commercial aspect of making $$ from dead animals, yet give nothing back. They're nothing but parasites.

Yeah, animals are EXACTLY like people. Lets hear the talk about how excruciating it would be to spend 24 hours in a trap. Well, lets talk instead about how you would feel laying out in the snow in -30 degree temps, like coyotes do every night inthe winter. Lets hope some global warming comes to their rescue! And oh-my-God! Lets eat some of that rotten, maggot filled road-kill that foxes and ravens seem to relish. What works for them must work the same for us.

Instead, I think we should sit in our ivory towers, eat our bread that killed hundreds of small mammals and invertebrates in the planting, cultivating and harvesting, get into our politically correct prius whose manufacturing facility destroyed unknown acres of wildlife habitat, and drive down to the local strip mall and protest something, hopefully trapping, because we hope to do something to assuage our consciences for the hypocracy that we live every day.

Mr. Alago, you are still speaking about things that you have no clue about. Cougars being killed in traps. A responsible trapper would never have a cougar die in one of his traps. And deer dying in snares, or even being caught in them is yet again an irresponsible trapper breaking the law. Snares are to be equiped with a deer stop, wich does not let the snare close all of the way. This is intended to stop the snare from sinching down on a deer leg. And that trapper, at least in the state of Montana was breaking the law! And like I have said before, a trapper that does the right things and understands animal behavior and patterns greatly decreases any chance of catching a non-target species. Like I have stated before, I have only caught one non-target animal in my life and that was a rabbit.
Orca, how can you stand up and say that no trapper has ever gave back in the form of conservation work. You are talking big and miss-informing the public for what reason? This world has enough lies, you can take a break from yours.
Please people, if we are going to debate on this at least give me an apponent that speaks the truth and sticks to subjects that they actually know something about.
Desperate men with no were to turn resort to telling lies.

Thank you

Protect Montana

One picture is worth a heap of palaver. Go to http://trapfreeoregon.org/page18.html.

Take two -

One picture is worth a heap of palaver. Go to http://trapfreeoregon.org/page18.htm

"Thank you for proving my point... when people get over-emotional, they can't even read a post correctly before hurrying to their keyboard to type down some incorrect rhetoric."

Dear Mary Beth: I don't believe I was over emotional in what I said at all. In fact, it was very rational and true. You can try to pin that on me, but in reality it is just what you would like me to do, however that wont happen. My words are not incorrect rhetoric. In fact, if you could give me specific examples to prove your general and broad accusation that would add to your credibility. Because at this point you have none. Try me.

Taz, you really dont get it do you? You really are as naive as you appear. There is good and bad in all people. Like you for instance, in my opinion, you are a bad journalist,at least on this subject. You butchered your story on " a trapper confesses." The fact that you are a bad journalist does not make every journalist bad. As a debater you are bad. You constantly avoid the facts of the opposition and take what they say out of context. Twisting and contorting the truth. But just because you are a bad debater does not make every debater bad. There are a lot of bad drivers and when they are caught breaking the law they suffer the consequences. But that doesn't make every driver bad. I could go on all night with different analogies of good and bad in people of all walks of life but I don't think you will get the point anyhow. Trappers are no different. Neither are hunters. You are way out of line. There is no way the great state of montana will let your cause succeed.
Dean , I would love to hear more from you. You appear to be intelligent.
PM, Keep up the good wook. Its a worthy cause.

MaryBeth and PM:
Nice projection on others' - telling me that I need to read the whole thing before I answer. How arrogant, and I must say ignorant. Admit it, your losing fast.

How much more can you butcher a story on "A trapper confesses"? I mean really? He already confessed? There is nothing else to butcher? nice wording by the way... how about something a little less violent?
can you do that?

Okeedokey -

I'm almost afraid to try this again. I was beginning to think the devil was helping out the trapping boys. Maybe he is. If this doesn't come up, cut and paste it. If that doesn't work, I guess you'll have to type it in. Don't bother with it, PM & Jim & Dean, it will have no effect on you.
http://trapfreeoregon.org/page18.html

Taz,I got a little bomb to drop on you. So please brace your . I am not a trapper. I know ,I know,But will be ok. I'm sorry to have to tell you but someone had to. Yes, its true, non-trappers also disagree with your tactics,yourcause, your thought process. I think the part I dislike the most about you and people like you is your view or lack of understanding of life. Your inability to see things in the complex way they are.The lack of awareness of what you are and where you came from. In short, your blindness. Good day too all.

People can call my Prius "politically correct" all they want, but I get 53 miles per gallon. I also have a Ford half-ton pickup, but it sits in the garage unless I need it for a specific purpose that the Prius cannot perform. I'll take my "politically correct" money to the bank any day.

Back on topic, I think this discussion is degenerating into name calling and perhaps is pointless. I don't think that because animals are killed in large numbers everyday by various means, (cars, hunting, etc.) justifies the killing of more by another means such as trapping. I think a point I mentioned before is being missed here trying to compare hunting to trapping. Hunting doesn't generally affect other recreationists as does trapping. I agree with PM that perhaps not everyone should be allowed to trap, just like not everyone should own a gun. But, the Montana Trapper's Association has fought tooth and nail any attempts over the years to tighten regulations and licensing requirements. I was at a FWP hearing where a commissioner lectured the trappers in attendance that they were not policing themselves and that further regulation was inevitable from the state. To emphasize his point, the commissioner commented, "there are a lot more dog owners than trappers." Perhaps if "slob-trappers" had been eliminated through tough training and licensing provisions, and regulations tightened, this would not be the issue it is today.

As a long time NRA member, I disagree with the premise that if trapping is curtailed, our firearms and 2nd. Amendment rights are next. There are plenty of similar comparisons available, such as, if cigarettes are banned, our guns are next.

I know FWP is looking to take some measures to mitigate conflicts between the two sides. However, I don't think the two sides will ever see "eye to eye". One side will win and one will lose.

Hey there "protect montana"
How about giving me examples of trappers participating in stream restoration, riparian restoration projects or any other wildlife enhancement projects. Oh right...they catch rabid coyotes...Geez!
Tell me why trappers can sell their "catch" commercially, but hunters and fishermen can't? What makes them so elite?
I also happen to be a long time NRA member am am not worried about the anti-trappers taking away my guns.
Not one state that has initiated a trapping ban has even hinted at banning hunting or firearms.
Quit riding the coattails of hunting and fishing groups by saying you're conservationists...I repeat..trappers are nothing but parasites.

michael, I will agree with you that this is pointless. I will agree that we simply disagree about trapping and all it entails . upon reading your comment " I think a point I mentioned before is being missed here trying to compare hunting to trapping." caused me to look back to what you said. When I did, I seen your comment
"I am not an armchair outdoors person. In the last 40 years I have spent over 1200 days in the Idaho wilderness areas, hiking, backpacking, kayaking, rafting, and even hunting. In Idaho, trapping is so unregulated trappers can set traps right on the trail tread of USFS trails." I found it interesting,particularly since I live in Idaho. It prompted me to go pick up my IFG hand book and flip to FURBEARERS.upon reading it ,it became very clear to me just how misinformed you are about the regulations of trapping in Idaho. You really should obtain a copy and read it and understand it before you make such uneducated comments. In fact I am certain it would be beneficial to all of us if all trappers and non trappers would read it in it's entirety. I feel strongly that it would be beneficial to society if non-trappers would lean every thing about trapping before they denounce it.. I mean to truly understand it in its entirety. Instead of taking the narrow minded approach that it is just cruel. Michael , just because we don't agree about the topic of trapping doesn't mean I consider you my enemy. In fact in normal life its quite possible we would get along just fine. It would be really nice if trappers and non-trappers could see eye to eye and meet in the middle on this subject. I fear this may never happen do to the differences in backgrounds and cultures. At any rate have a nice night all.

Jim,

Possibly I am misinformed about the trapping regulations in Idaho regarding setting traps on trails. I was hiking along the Salmon River Trail below Corn Creek on the way to Lantz Bar when I encountered three different traps set on the river trail.

But, if I am ignorant, so is the Idaho Fish and Game. After calling about another issue, I mentioned the three traps to a warden out of the Salmon office. He was the one that told me that setting the traps on the trail was legal. So, I will read the regulations myself, and the warden should too, and I will get back to you. I assumed a warden should know his own dept. regulations. But, you never actually said whether it was legal to set traps on trails or not, just that I was "uneducated".

I not sure why you don't think cruelty is a valid enough reason to cease an activity. In your previous comments, you seem to be using the deaths of animals due to many causes to justify your own intentional killing of more animals through trapping.

It's pretty obvious to the most casual observer, that ANY ONE that enjoys inflicting, or seeing the pain and suffering of animals or anything else, suffers from what is known as "short-man-syndrome". Whether it be height, brain power, or something more 'personal'.

Ann.....in addition to the "short-man-syndrome" many of them suffer from, unfortunately and through no fault of theirs, the fact that they were abused as children.

Beyond all the words that have been written on this page, we're back to the beginning. A trapper has admitted what he does is animal cruelty. Every single fur trapper in the USA uses leg- and/or body-hold traps: leg-hold traps, Conibear traps, snare traps. Anybody who has read the exhaustive discussion above can't help but have gotten a good idea of what trapping involves. Every single trap cause great suffering, suffering which can last a long, long time. Every trapper sees suffering animals every single day of trapping season, all of it at his hands. Scores, hundreds, thousands of agonized creatures. All for him. What does he see? Look at this image. It's not gruesome or bloody, but it shows why we want to stop this truly sadistic sport: http://trapfreeoregon.org/page18.html

Gline-

What you said was rational and true? You took one comment meant for someone else (my first to PM) and assumed I was pro-trapping. I pointed out that was NOT in fact true and if you HAD in fact read that post more closely, you would have realized that before you went off on me. So I assumed (maybe incorrectly – maybe you chose to deliberately misread or misinterpret my comment) that you hadn’t read it thouroughly. You told me to “get off the fence.” What fence was I on? And I agreed with you that this IS an emotional subject. But my point with that whole argument was that we should not base our arguments purely on emotion. And I never “had a cow” about you comparing banning trapping to civil rights – another assumption about me.

I already gave you a specific example in my first reply to you – you took a statement by me and assumed a whole paragraph about my views on the subject. That just proves again that you either aren’t reading closely or deliberately chosing to misinterpret my statements.

How am I projecting onto you? I’ve read over your posts multiple times in an attempt to anwer your questions and assumptions. How is that arrogant and ignorant? And I was never trying to establish credibility for a position in the very first place – I was simply telling PM how much I enjoyed his comments.

Something I learned in my Criminal Justiice class was; One should NEVER assume, for it will most always make an

ASS out of U & ME!

Then I guess we're all ASS***** as it's impossible not to. Clever and not overused at all - I happen to agree by the way!

I learned that from life.

Jim,

I did my research after you called me "misinformed" and said I made "uneducated" comments regarding setbacks and traps on trails in Idaho. I read the Idaho Furbearer regulations (again) and also talked to Idaho Fish and Game personnel at both the Boise Head Office and Salmon Regional Office.

Well Jim, it is you that is uneducated and misinformed. And that is especially bad since you claim to be up on the regulations and trapping. THERE ARE NO STATUTORY REGULATIONS IN IDAHO THAT PROHIBIT PLACING TRAPS ON USFS TRAILS OR THAT MANDATE SETBACKS FROM TRAILS! Simply put, I was right and you were wrong.

Don't try to mislead people with falsehoods. You said you read the regulations, so that means you either don't comprehend well or you chose to deliberately mislead people.

I'm getting really tiered of trappers claiming that their "sport" is regulated; there is no mandatory trap check in MT, nor are trappers required to post signs in areas where they kill animals in traps. I'm also getting very annoyed at the "argument" that if a trapper doesn't abide the trapping regs he is just a "bad apple"...
NOBODY knows what trappers are doing out there on our public lands! Several traps have injured compaion animals in January, some people are looking at horrendous vet bills! Who is going to reimburse these people? Nobody!!! Most of these traps were set illegally without name tags... A Golden Eagle had to be euthanized because his leg was caught in a Conibear - the trap had not name tag attached! A few years ago, a trapper shot a Great Pyrenees in his trap and threw the dog over a ravine! A woman's German Shepherd died a gruesome death in a Conibear trap set ilegally in the Bitterrooot... Trapping needs to end!

You are getting a little emotional Mary Beth.. maybe you should read the comments before you speak...

Ok Mary beth: tell me how you are against trapping then, and the rest of us would like to know I'm sure. Give specifics though, broad accusations don't really fly...... go on... give us some SPECIFICS.

Hey orca: I like your respones! you are on the same page as me...

"You really should obtain a copy and read it and understand it before you make such uneducated comments."

This quote is to Michael, I believe. In his defense I must say, First of all, most trappers do not follow the 'rules'. Why would they? No one is policing them. Why bother shooting an animal if you can just let it lay in your trap for 2 or 3, 4 days? Die on its' own. Why does it do you any harm? No one is policing you... and you are not there, so how does it bother you? Your not the one in the trap. If it is still alive by its' own pure last death rites, you can shoot it and call it humane I suppose.

Yet, really, it is interesting philosophically, that trappers claim to be so neutral on this blog, to make trapping more 'warm' and delighting, rather than explain the true cruelty and brutality involved. Not to mention the money you gain from a pelt. Racoons are going for what $50? or more? How else could you justify such an abusive act? In fact you are hiding your true identity, by seemingly trying to be so 'neutral' you become transparent. We can tell that anyone that would be neutral to trapping is actually condoning such a cruel practice or brainswashed by their significant other. It only makes common sense... that is your fault trappers, that you end up tripping over your own sentences and becoming so transparent. Keep writing though, it is very educational, but very sad at the same time. I can only hope you come back as a wild animal to be trapped, in your next life.

For all the insults that will follow this reply, most of us can 'read between the lines' and see the truth for what it is.

Taz et al. - This discussion caught my attention and am captivated by the convesation, though I am not sure if it makes me sad or gives me hope. Seems like social norms are on the table here as the "new west" is being defined. I like that classic divisions are being challenged. The man loves division. I have always considered defending the things that are important to me and future generations to be part of my personal mission statement. These include Hunting, Healthy Ecosystems, Clean Waters, Public Lands, Free Rivers, Wilderness, ANWR and the like. I love bunnies and picas and I especially love deer. More than a non hunter could ever imagine. I consider the institution of hunting one of the most sacred dances available to humanity. I am not a trapper but I will defend them as I am a minority in the right on many other issues and I think it is vanishing institution and an important cultural skill.
So, on bald rats:
Humans are not evil. Humans have coexisted with nature very well for the last several hundred thousand years. Within the last hundred years or so it has become clear that our culture is indeed heading down the wrong road and interestingly, I think every poster agrees with that. We are however bald because we attained the intellignece to use the fur left from other animals rather than let animal skins go to waste or to waste energy growing our own fur.
On human centrism.
Taz's argument is extremely anthropocentric with a hint of disney bias to boot. The classic - animals are people too argument. Yes I love my dog and it is fun to put words in his mouth, but he isn't actually thinking those words. I love bunnies, they are cute but they would not be bunnies if they did not constantly look out for predators. It is their cause in life, not to dance on ice, but to eat and listen for and run from predators. Also, humans are omnivores, it is playing god to act otherwise. It is to suggest that our ideas are greater than natures ways or the ways of the creator if you prefer. I don't care how the world came about, I am more interested in how it operates. Humans evolved intelligence to survive. It has served us very well. While lions were evolving speed bursts and sharp teeth to catch deer, humans got smarts. We are slow, nearly blind at night, stupid when in the rut, but dam we are the first and I contend only current species to have a true appreciation for life, and the fragility and beauty of earth. And for that we are special. We are allowed to think and use our heads and I think the best way to save this damn planet is to keep talking and build unity on the priority issues. What is next after we stop trapping? Do we stop lions from eating deer and teach them to grow carrots. Taz's world seems to to be one where humans are too good for nature. Above It. Beyond It. Ready for Mars. It is a slippery slope and I think a scary world.
Slippery Slopes - I never like slippery slope arguments very much I am not going to agree that we should not ban trapping because they will take hunting next. I just support responsible trapping. No one will take hunting from me. Unlike Protect Montana I am not blindly law abiding, I am moral. Frankly the Federal Government violated the 2nd ammendment a long time ago when they started arming themselves with missles and F-15's. So that bit is moot as well.
On the effectiveness of extremists: You will only create backlash. Wolf poachers and fur spraypainters and tree spikers are on the same side... The wrong one. Time for the radical centrists to speak up.

P.S. On waste- I used to be all uppity and think I should eat every drop of what I kill. That was egocentric thinking. There is no waste in nature.

Ann,

I want to apologize for my snarky comments yesterday. I was having an awful day and it was uncalled for.

Gline,

Yes, my comments to ANN did get a bit emotional, and I aplogized to her for it. See? I'm human and imperfect, but I can admit when I'm wrong.

Leupold Brew,

Your account on how humans lost their hair is not biologically possible. You could put coats on dogs for generations and they would still have their fur.....but this isn't the issue here.

That was a long, thoughtful, and sincere discourse you wrote. But, even so, it is still just a philosophical argument based on your personal views of how the world works - no worse or no better than many other writers in this discussion. You seem resigned to accept things, even unpleasant things, because that's the way it has always been. Do we need to perpetuate a cruelty simply because we've always done it? And, is fur trapping necessary in today's world as in the past?

It could be argued that in some ways, man is above nature, for example, cities, machines, weapons etc. In others though, like hurricanes, disease, and asteroids, man is clearly not. Ultimately, nature is and will be the master of man. I totally agree with you that our culture is heading down the wrong path, but I don't think eliminating trapping is part of that. Of course, like yours, that is just a personal opinion.

It is true what you said about animals not thinking like we do, but, it is also true that they experience pain, joy, anxiety, and affection, as do we. Some anthropologists argue that what is considered conscious thought in humans is not really that, but rather people are predisposed to think a certain way genetically or instinctively.

We may be the only species "to have a true appreciation for life, and the fragility and beauty of earth," but that trait is not universal among us, by any means. Lastly, is trapping a "centrist" activity, or is it just as extreme in it's way as your opinion that banning it would be?

Sometimes when you follow the middle road, you follow no road at all.

Actually Gline, I highly doubt anyone else on this thread cares about our little tiff here. Trapping isn’t one of my main concerns and I admit I don’t know a whole lot about it – at least not enough to comment intelligently on pros or cons. Commenting on trapping was never my intent here – I was merely voicing my support to another poster, who it seems, is as disillusioned as I am by this thread. This isn’t adding to the debate in anyway, so I’m done. Why would I bother to answer your questions when you won’t even attempt to answer mine except with contempt and sarcasm? My main objective in reading any New West articles and associated comments is to learn and expand my knowledge. For many, it seems to be a forum to b*tch and complain and to prove how RIGHT they are, regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

Cruel: Disposed to give pain to others; willing or pleased to
hurt, torment, or afflict.

Right: The legal or moral entitlement to do or refrain from doing something or to obtain or refrain from obtaining an action, thing or recognition in civil society. Compare with privilege, or a thing to which one has a just claim.

Mercy: Alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed.

Merciless: Having or showing no mercy.

After reading this long series of debates, I am struggling to see clearly what the actual positions on both sides are. I have a cloudy idea—I think people against trapping believe it is too “cruel” and the people for trapping believe it is their “right.”

I don’t really have a clear-cut position on this issue myself, but I am trying to give both sides credence. After doing some research on the definitions of “cruel” and “right” I would have to say that trapping, when speaking for the entire group and not the individual, is not actually “cruel” by definition, though it is a “right.” To explain one must look at these definitions -- I don’t think the entire group of trappers in this country are …“disposed to give pain,” or are ... “willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict...” (though there is always a bad egg in the bunch somewhere). Rather, I think trappers just want the pelt and there aren’t really any other ways to get it--in good form--other than trapping. So, they are willing to overlook the manner in which the pelt is obtained. On the same hand, the entitlement to refrain from trapping or refrain from giving trapping recognition is also a “right.” So, how can anyone be correct here? You all are.

I think by definition, trapping is more accurately “merciless.” Mercy is the “alleviation of distress…” Trapping does not really offer the alleviation of distress, at least not very quickly. I suppose a trapper does give mercy, however, if the animal is still alive when they come to check their trap—though probably not in the swiftest possible way of providing that mercy (i.e. shooting them to kill instantly).

Most other forms of killing animals are not “cruel” either—such as road kill with automobiles. Drivers don’t usually set out with a disposition to give pain or feel willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict. Nor do the cattle butchers—they are just doing their job so we can eat a burger tonight. Hopefully, the people that were “cruel” in the recent cattle industry tragedy, will be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

No apology needed. But I will accept it. I didn't take you to be 'snarky' (lol@snarky). Sorry, but if you intended them to be I missed it.

Fact is fact.

Michael took the words out of my mouth, and said it better.

It may be true that in nature there is no such thing as waste, but that's in terms of raw materials. If you kill a bull elk and take nothing but the rack, that's waste. It's a waste of the animal's life, of it's breeding potential, of its value to the state as a game animal. Waste of game is a hunting violation in every state in the Union. An outfitter in my part of Oregon was convicted of doing just that on a trophy hunt, leaving the meat behind. Waste of animals by trappers taking unintended species is equivalent.

The definition of anthropocentric is "considering human beings as the most significant entity of the universe." Personally, on that scale I think humans are insignificant. Sadly for our fellow inhabitants on Earth, we're dominant, and we ought then to take special care to act responsibly toward them. Trappers are more nearly anthropocentric in their refusal to grant animals any consideration. Kill any old way, is their motto, and the hell with what the victims feel. We've other means of subsisting now. We don't have to act this way any more. The "tradition" of trapping belongs in the dumpster.

Honey -

Right. Trapping is merciless. While trappers may not all want to cause agony, they trap with the certain knowledge that they will. A trapper doesn't kill his catch out of mercy, but to collect his animal. He'll let this animal stay in the trap for days, so I don't think the word "mercy" has any relevance to what a trapper does. Anybody who treated his dog, goat, cat, or pig this way would be up on a charge instantly, and be vilified by his neighbours to boot. How essentially different are wild animals from domestic ones, do you think? If someone adopted a coyote pup and raised it, then trapped and left it for a couple of days in the trap, eventually beating and suffocating it to death, would that be right or wrong?

Most all human predators in this modern age support and practice Fair Chase pursuit of their prey. Trapping is a hold over of a bygone era in which cruelty to wildlife was in some measure a test of manhood. There is nothing fair or manly about trapping.

If someone trapped their own pet I feel that would be wrong, not to mention kind of demented. Are you suggesting that trappers in general trap their own pets (intentionally)?

How essentially different are wild animals from domestic ones? I'd say the fundamental difference is fear of man, which is kind of a big difference. I'm not say