Did Jesus Pray to Allah?
By Nick Gier, Unfiltered 2-01-10
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There are about 12 million Arabic speaking Christians in the world. They live as substantial minorities in Lebanon (35%) and Syria (10%) and in lesser numbers in Iraq, Palestine, and North Africa.
Contrary to popular belief, the majority of Arabs living in the U.S. are Christians, not Muslims. Ralph Nader, for example, comes from an Arab Christian family.
For at least 1,200 years Arab Christians have read their Bibles with the Hebrew and Greek words elohim and theos translated as Allah. Jews and Christians prayed to God as Allah long before the prophet Mohammed, who himself acknowledged that Arabian Jews and Christians of his time used the word Allah for God.
In 2007, under pressure from Muslim fundamentalism but going against two millennia of tradition, the Malaysian government decided to ban all Christian publications that translated God as Allah.
Government leaders said that they did it because they did not want members of the Muslim majority (60 percent) to be confused and to be misled into converting to Christianity, a punishable offense in Malaysia.
Last month a judge for the nation’s highest court ruled that the prohibition violated the principle of religious freedom. Judge Lau Bee Lan declared that Malaysian Christians “have a constitutional right to use Allah.”
Thousands of Malaysia’s Muslims have been protesting the high court decision and the government has appealed the ruling. Since January 7, 10 churches, a convent, and a Sikh temple have been fire bombed by militants on motorcycles. The Sikhs have been targeted because they have always used Allah for God.
The 2.5 million Malaysian Christians are primarily Chinese and Indian immigrants, and Hindu Indians, who have also come under attack, joined these Christians in candle light vigils at the churches in Kuala Lumpur. To their credit the government and Muslim leaders have condemned the firebombing of churches.
Laying out a detailed linguistic explanation, Malay Christian scholar Ng Karn Weng informs us that “allah is an ordinary Arabic word which is not specifically linked to a particular religion.” The word is composed of two parts “al-ilah” literally meaning “the strong God.”
The root word Il is exactly the same as the Canaanite El, which appears many times in the Old Testament as El Bethel (God at Bethel) and El Shaddai (God of the Mountain). The plural form Elohim is the most common word for God in the Old Testament.
Jesus and his disciples spoke Aramaic, an ancient Semitic language from Syria. There are at least a dozen phrases in the New Testament where the authors have transliterated Jesus’ Aramaic words or sayings into Greek.
Trying to be as authentic as possible in his film The Passion of Christ, Mel Gibson has his Jesus speaking Aramaic and praying to Aalah, Western Aramaic for God.
Malaysian Muslims have proposed that Christians choose the Malay word Tuhan, which means Lord, for the Christian God, but they insist that Allah is more accurate and they are supported by Muslim authorities all over the world.
When Roman Catholics missionaries produced the first Chinese translation of the Bible, they chose the Chinese phrase Tian Zhu, which means “Lord of Heaven.” Coming much later Protestant missionaries were not satisfied with this, and a great controversy arose about this issue. They finally agreed, very reasonably, on the Chinese word Shen, a generic term for deity just like Allah and Elohim.
When I taught the existence of God in my philosophy classes, the conclusion, if any the arguments are valid, was that there is one God not many. That conclusion could be expressed in any number of linguistic terms--Allah, Elohim, Deus, Dios, Dieu, Gott, Gud--and of course it would be absurd for believers to insist that only their word for deity is the legitimate one.
Nick Gier taught religion and philosophy at the University of Idaho for 31 years. Read or listen to all of his columns at www.NickGier.com
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Comments
Oh really!!! Wow thats a new one! I stoped reading your article after this line.
Perhaps Josh is just like so many Americans, who mistakenly believe that all Arabs are Muslims and that all Muslims are Arabs. Both are false beliefs. India has 150 million non-Arab Muslims, the 170 million Pakistanis Muslims are not Arabs, and neither are the 240 million Muslim Indonesians, 26 million Malaysian Muslims, 80 million Iranian Muslims (they are Persians not Arabs), and the 75 million Turkish Muslims who are not Arab. Oh, I almost forgot the tens of millions of African Muslims who are not Arabs. Non-Arab Muslims are probably the majority.
No, I don't teach semantics. My degree is in theology and religious studies. If you had read my column closely, you would have read that I believe just as Mohammed did, that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are DIFFERENT religions, but they worship the same God. Many Christians embrace a Judeo-Christian tradition, which means that they worship the same God that Abraham worshipped. Muslims make the same very reasonably claims, saying that Abraham, Jacob, and Moses are their spiritual patriarchs as well.
Chinese, Indians, and Muslims emigrated to the Malay peninsula and interbred with the the indigenous Malay people.
Monks of the church of the East established schools in many towns even in Arabia. "In their monasteries monks could be heard chanting their offices, so that the Arabs became accustomed to seeing the monks at pray day and night, prostrating themselves with their faces to the ground. In prayer the Christians turned to the east. Such men were a familiar sight on all the caravan routes of Arabia. The monastery at Hira was established by the Nestorians in the fifth century, and from thence Christianity was carried to Bahrayn. While Muhammad was a young man.." It is for this reason that Muslims call God; Allah.
Christians in so-called Arab countries such as Assyrians are not Arabs, they trace their ancestry to the ancient Assyrians and Babylonians.
See; http://www.christiansofiraq.com
See: http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/N/nestorians.html
Allah is simply an Arabic word/translation of word GOD in English.
In Sikh Scriptures Guru Granth Sahib, where many languages of the subcontinent have been used the use of word Allah is referred to GOD rather than to any Muslim God . God in Sikh scriptures is ONE and he is formless and is omnipresent in our lives. He is not Hindu, Muslim , Christian, Sikh or Budhist God. You can call him by many names, likes Allah, Ram, Raheem, God etc but he is one formless God.
Allah is not the God of the bible because the God of the bible rest on the seven day, fight,sleep and have dead child (Jesus).
However there are stories of Prophets of Allah in the bible such as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Esa who pray and worship One Almighty God the Creator. The Most Important Commandments of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are similar.
Alif, Lam, Mim.
God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgement between right and wrong).
Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.
From God, verily nothing is hidden on earth or in the heavens.
He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
"Our Lord!" (they say), "Let not our hearts deviate now after Thou hast guided us, but grant us mercy from Thine own Presence; for Thou art the Grantor of bounties without measure.
"Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind Together against a day about which there is no doubt; for God never fails in His promise."
Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against God: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire.
(Their plight will be) no better than that of the people of Pharaoh, and their predecessors: They denied our Signs, and God called them to account for their sins. For God is strict in punishment.
Say to those who reject Faith: "Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,-an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!
(Family of Imran the Grandfather of Esa)
arah
Malaysian
Dear "J": It is rare for someone to apologize on a Blog like this and I want to commend you for your basic civility and moral sense. I wish more anonymous blogger had the courage and decency to do what you did.
Allah is the word for the Muslim God, so your proposed provocation "Muslim pray to the Christian God" is not a parallel at all. My position is that if God exists, then all monotheists pray to the same God.
Jayabdih is incorrect when he says that Allah is the unique name of Mohammed's God. When the Qu'ran gives the 99 names of God, Allah is not one of them, because it is a generic name for deity not a proper noun.
But our One God has given mankind, us, One Name to call in heaven, on earth, and under the earth and that name is JESUS, the name of one of the Three Persons of His revelation of Himself -the TRINITY. But Jesus is NOT the name of the One True God!
http://www.layadvocacyforchristianunity.org/38501.html
Yes I agree GOD is one. The 99 God names in the Quran are Allah's attributes but the proper name is Allah. When Nick says Allah is not one of the name mentioned in the Quran, this proves that Nick did not read the Quran (with open heart). Well, you need not read the Quran to look for points for the sake of arguments.
No muslims can force the non-muslims to accept this. Anyone may argue this but there are things that cant's be proven by logic.
Isabelo, I disagree with you on the nameless Creator of the universe and Sustainer, Allah. Everything has names. I think you are confused after reading a book written by another confused authors.
Did you mean that God made mistake by creating human being like you? He..he..
CORRECTION: The above factS are NOT accurate. The Sikh temple were not touched at all. Only 3 churches were firebombed NOT 10. Only one damaged. You see... some writers are fond of INFALTING the figures to incite others in believing that muslims are bad. One more thing...I did not see writers writing about the arrest of those responsible for the crime, not even Nick Gier himself.
The names of God found in all holy books are linguistic names and culturally determined. God in one of our hundreds of dialects is "Bathala," in another dialect, "Panginoon," in another "Dios," . . . etc to hundreds of local names. So, what really is the name of the One God? No body knows.
A Christian Minister's Conversion to Islam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKXKKyyXG4g
The entire discussion should be a non-issue, as the Malaysian muslims are by law not allowed to enter places of worship from other eligions, are unable to convert out of islam and are forbidden to read nor possess items such as a bible, christian newspaper (The Herald) and so on. In practise this means any devout muslim would not be confronted with other materials from other religions. Hence the fear that muslims would be "confused" and might "convert" is based on air.
Unless the Malaysian muslim authorities acknowledge that many of their muslim brothers are not happy being a muslim expressing the wish to convert and openly seeking christian or other materials, this 'Allah' issue does not have any purpose except leading the uneducated towards a political goal. It is not unthinkable that many muslims seek a way out of their religion, afterall, in Malaysia (as in many other places) the Malays are muslim by birth, not by choice. Should the father or grandfather convert to islam, then all offspring is suddenly considered muslim, again, these people would do not get to choose their religion. Similar events occur when a non-muslim weds a muslim, converting is the only way.
It's a one way strategy, once a muslim, always a muslim. This fact allone classifies slam as a cult instead of a religion.
Anyway, the Allah-issue is most likely based on politics, it even has other muslim states asking questions on what this is all about. It s a public secret that the entire case is turning into a global emberassement for the Malaysian governement. They should have left the ramblings of a rather sellect group of extremists for what the were, it should never been able to reach the courts or even the papers. It's a non-issue, an argument they cannot win.
Quote: "as the Malaysian muslims are by law not allowed to enter places of worship from other eligions, are unable to convert out of islam and are forbidden to read nor possess items such as a bible, christian newspaper (The Herald) and so on. In practise this means any devout muslim would not be confronted with other materials from other religions. Hence the fear that muslims would be "confused" and might "convert" is based on air".
My comment: You generalise your facts. It looks like you know so much about Malaysian Law.. but sad to say you do not. Malaysians are not in the position to change Dutch law. Malaysian are not Dutch. Malaysia has no right to interfere Dutch law and constitution simply because the Dutch are addressing the Dutch. Likewise, if a Dutch try to interfere in the Malaysian Law then I will question the Dutch ..."who are you to interfere Malaysian Law?". It is within the Law of Malaysia that Islam is the offical religion as written in the constituiton. Unless changed by 2/3 majority at the Parliment, Law is always Law. Yes... the Christians newspaper (The Herald) are confused and start confusing the Malaysian muslims. That is exactly the point. They cant live in a country that is full of confusion. The confused Malaysians will become a laughing stock. If you are the government of Malaysia, would you like to see your citizen being confused by confused group of people?. Islam use ALLAH to address god as one and the only god and here comes the christian using Allah as three in one god!. Confusing isnt it.
Quote: "the Malays are muslim by birth, not by choice. Should the father or grandfather convert to islam, then all offspring is suddenly considered muslim, again, these people would do not get to choose their religion"
My comment: You mean when a sikh or christian gave birth, the child has no religion? Show me these Sikhs and Christian or other religions who declare that their offsprings have no religion.
I'm living in Malaysia for 8 years now, I in no way talk put the Allah-situation in context of Dutch law.
Anyways, you yourself confirm the limitations I mention, muslims are not able to convert by law, be it state law or that laid down by the koran. So I don't see what you are going on about here.
Indeed you are right, people of other religions are also born into their respective religious environment, however THEY CAN CHOOSE not to follow this religion at any time, they can switch religions, they can renounce religions, this is not the case for most muslims especially the ones in Malaysia, which is what this article is about.
Malaysian court itself HAD TO ACKNOWLEDGE that the term Allah was in use even BEFORE islam came to be. If anything people of other religions could counterclaim (but they wouldn't bother, they do not want to make an ass of themselves like the Malays who came up with this rediculous idea).
If you as a Malay are confused by another religion (in this case christianity) then please answer how you get confused, are you reading The Herald? Do you go to church instead of a mosque? How on earth can the average Malay, assuming they are faithful muslims (obviously not always), be confused by something which they are not allowed to come in contact with. Also keep in mind that any other religion is barred from trying to convert people into their religion in Malaysia, only muslims are allowed to this. So how would any Malay be confronted by christian materials unless they actively look for it.
A final question, jayabdih, are you a confused Malaysian muslim?
Defintly I am not a confuse but I am reading so much on articles that are confusing written by confused writers. Imagine a new convert being confused by the term "God is one but it existed in three forms ie. father, son and holy spirit". Other faith may say GOD is one but at at the same time go and ask for help from man-made idol. Isnt that confusing. I studied the bible and I got high marks for it and still confusing. In one of the verse it is written "Eloi-eloi lama sabaktani?" (meaning: oh god why did you amabdon me?). Jesus said this. How can this appear in the bible when the Jesus was still alive?. In the bible we read story of ponography and yet they call the bible as word of god. Some of my family are devoted christians ie. sisters in christ. They are confused about their own faith. Now ... many people are reverting to Islam and mind you they are christians preachers, priests and doctors etc. Why? Because they read the Quran and Sunnah (the saying of the prophet). Yes ...they are professionals cant be confused by the bible preachers but in Malaysia the christians are confusing the less educated people NOT the professionals. The professionals are safe from being confused so The Herald start to use the word Allah in their malay-language newspaper to confuse the malay-speaking group and this group are mostly less educated.
Show me... who use ALLAH prior to the coming of Islam? If you are look back at the history of the revelation of holy books, you will be surprise that NONE of the holy books (namely schrool given to Abraham, Torah given to Moses, 10 commanments given to Moses, Zabur given to David, Injeel given to Jesus) use the alpabeth "Alif Lam Lam Ha' in arabic. Try prove to me. If the Arab bible use Allah ... it is because the arab Muslims are not sensitive about this term so they keep quite. The Indonesians muslims did not object to it because they too did not realise the future confusion. The Malaysian muslims are sensitive because they study the contradicting bibles.
The west are now seriously studying Islam. They read the quran and many reverted to Islam leaving their christians faith. The christians missionories cant stop the mass influx of christians into Islam... so they (the young christians from US, UK, Korea, Dutch and others) come to South East Asia in big numbers to convert the less-educated malays and other ethnic group into christians. So far they are quite successful because they offer them free books, money as 'loan'. But many of them turn back and say 'the bible is not autentic anymore' so they leave behind the christian faith.
So my answer is, I am far from confused but dont confuse the young, the less-educated and the poor people. If you try to confuse them... then the learned muslims will stand up and speak up.
First of all, it is important to know that satan's biggest lie, trinity, is only an interpretation and a conclusion. There is not a single text in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit is GOD Almighty, nor does that satanic word, trinity, even exist in the Bible. People during Constantine's days around year 325, because they were and still are naturally inclined to idol worship, polytheism and paganism as the Far Eastern religions are today, they decided to consider Jesus and the Holy Spirit as GOD Almighty. Satan's deception and evil is overwhelming and powerful. It is no surprise that people fell for this lie by the billions throughout history, as many more billions had fell for satan's lies in the Far Eastern pagan religions. Trinity, doesn't even exist in the bible. The word doesn't exist anywhere in the book, nor do we have any text that says Jesus is the Creator of the Universe. The same also goes for the Holy Spirit.
The reason why Muslims don't call the Holy Spirit as GOD Almighty is because it is just a creation of GOD Almighty with specific and limited duties as I clearly demonstrated above from the Noble Quran. Like the Angels and the other Universal Spirits, the Holy Spirit is unknown to us and we can't fully describe it. But nonetheless, this doesn't give anyone the right to start getting colorful and smart and deceive the weak-minded and call it and other creations as GOD Almighty.
Also, it seems clear that the Bible has several types of Universal Spirits, or Holy Spirits. For instance, we see a prediction about the "Spirit of Fearing GOD" being installed in the coming Prophet, Jesus:
Isaiah 11:1-3
1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;
As we see in Isaiah 11:1-3, there is:
1- Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding.
2- Spirit of Counsel and of power.
3- Spirit of Knowledge.
4- Spirit of the fear of the LORD.
Also, the verses above say "and he will delight in the fear of the LORD", which clearly proves that Jesus is under GOD Almighty and can not be equivalent to Him or part of Him, because GOD Almighty has no fear in Him. He Created fear, or the Spirit of Fear, and He installs it on whom ever He pleases. But He Himself doesn't have that Spirit in Him!
The verses above also say "He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;...", which further proves that Jesus is not part of GOD Almighty, because GOD Almighty Speaks and Hears whatever He Pleases!
The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
If Jesus doesn't consider himself as "good", then how can any sane person put him on the same level as GOD Almighty?
Also, another important point to notice in Mark 10:18 is the word "alone": ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"
Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.
Jesus said he was not good. He can't possibly say I am your Creator and by the way I am not good. The question itself shows the complete ignorance about what's written in the bible and reveals the total blasphemy and darkness that polytheist trinitarian pagans are living in.
Jesus is not GOD! The GOD Almighty of the Old Testament BOASTS about Himself! He countlessly reminds the Jews about Worshiping Him and only Him because He is the "One who took them out of Egypt", and He's the "One who Saved them from Pharaoh", etc... Not only that, but He also Punishes to death anyone who profanes His Holy and Blessed Name.
Jesus can not be this Holy and Mighty and Arrogant and Absolute GOD Almighty when he, for instance, escaped to Egypt for his life from King Herod! The GOD Almighty's Divine Characteristics in the Old Testament can not in anyway fit Jesus who is not "good" and who runs for his life from a creation of GOD Almighty.
GOD Almighty is an Absolute One and only One and not a unity or trinity as satan claims.
The early Christians rejected Trinity. Early Christians had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not.
Early Christians' Doctrines confirm Jesus DID NOT GET crucified. See proofs that the early Christians' scriptures during the 1st and 2nd centuries claimed that GOD Almighty Saved Jesus from crucifixion.
The "God" title in the Bible was given to others in the Old and New Testaments. Answering Isaiah 9:6. The "El" (God) title that was given to Jesus in the Old Testament, and the "HOTHEOS" (God) title in the New Testament, were given to others before and after Jesus in the Bible. The only UNIQUE title that exists in the Bible is "Yahweh", which means "The Eternal".
Emanuel, Emmanuel, Yahshua, Yeshua, Yashua, Immanuel and Imanuel. These were all "Godly" names given to others before and after Jesus in the Bible. None of them is unique. Only "Yahweh" was GOD Almighty's Unique Name.
It is often said by trinitarians that Jesus' miraculous birth is a clear proof that he is the Creator of the Universe. I often hear this absurd nonsense and easily refute it by presenting Adam's creation. Adam was created in a much more complex Miracle than Jesus. At least Jesus had to be formed as a fetus in a woman's womb. Yes she was virgin when GOD Almighty caused her to get pregnant, but nonetheless, Jesus had to be formed as a fetus in a human womb like you and me.
Adam on the other hand and Eve also were created in a much more complex Miracle. Adam was created vitually out of nothing. Eve, his wife, was created from his rib. These two Miracles are far greater than Jesus' birth.
So the absurd claim about Jesus' birth proving that he is GOD Almighty is soundly debunked through simple common sense.
Conclusion:
To say the least regarding Islam, the lie of trinity and/or duality of GOD Almighty in Islam does not exist, and it had been soundly debunked throughout this article! The Christian missionaries' new lies and tactics about introducing trinity in Islam's Doctrines has been exposed in this article through the Will and Wisdom of Allah Almighty. All Praise due to Him.
As I demonstrated above using the Noble Quran, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are only a Creation from GOD Almighty, and it has specific duties assigned to it. Also in the Day of Judgement, the Holy Spirit and the Angels will be standing before GOD Almighty waiting for His Divine Orders and Commands, which indisputably proves that the Holy Spirit is below Allah Almighty and is in no way part of Him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vGQa-35Xok
WHO IS ALLAAH?
It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with the Arabic term Allaah. Allaah is the personal name of the one true God. Nothing else can be called Allaah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word god which can be made plural, gods, or feminine, goddess. It is interesting to note that Allaah is the proper name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.
To a Muslim, Allaah is the Almighty, Creator and Sustainer of the
universe, Who is similar to nothing and nothing is comparable to Him. The prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was asked by his contemporaries about Allaah the Almighty; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Qur’an, which is considered the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism.
This is chapter 112 which reads:
In the name of Allaah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)): “He is Allâh, (the) One. Allâh- us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks). He begets not, nor was He begotten; And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him”. (Qur’an: Chapter # 114)
Some non-Muslims allege that God in Islam is a stern and cruel God. He is not loving and kind. Nothing can be farther from truth than this allegation. It is enough to know that, with the exception of one, each of the 114 chapters of the Qur’an begins with the verse: “In the name of Allaah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.” In one of the sayings of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) we are told that “Allaah is more loving and kinder than a mother to her dear child.”
But Allaah is also Just. Hence evildoers and sinners must have their share of punishment and as for the virtuous, His bounties and favors.
Actually, God’s attribute of Mercy has full manifestation in His
attribute of Justice. People suffering throughout their lives for His
sake and people oppressing and exploiting other people all their
lives should not receive similar treatment from their Lord. Expecting similar treatment for them will amount to negating the very belief in the accountability of man in the Hereafter and thereby negating all the incentives for a moral and virtuous life in this world. The following Qur’anic verses are very clear and straightforward in this respect:
“Verily, for the righteous are gardens of delight, in the presence of
their Lord. So shall We treat the Muslims (believers, righteous) like
the criminals? (disbelivers, eveildoers) What is the matter with you?
How do you judge?” (Qur’an 68:34-36)
Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.
The concepts that God rested on the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, or that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.
The unique usage of the term Allaah as a personal name of God is a reflection of Islam’s emphasis on the purity of the belief in God
which is the essence of the message of all God’s messengers. Because of this, Islam considers associating any deity or personality with God as a deadly sin which God will never forgive, despite the fact He may forgive all other sins.
Note that what is meant above applies ONLY to those people who die in a state wherein they are associating others with God. The repentance of those who yet live is acceptable to God if He wills.
The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created
because if He is of the same nature as they are, He will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then He must be eternal. But if He is eternal, He cannot be caused, and if nothing outside Him causes Him to continue to exist, which means that He must be self-sufficient. And if He does not depend on anything for the continuance of His own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: “He is the First and the Last.”
He is Self-Sufficient or Self-Subsistent or, to use a Qur’anic term,
Al-Qayyuum. The Creator does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them.
“Allaah is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over
everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the
earth.” (Qur’an 39:62-63)
“And there isn’t a creature that crawls on earth, except that upon
Allaah is its provision. He knows its place of dwelling and place of
storage. All is in a clear register.” (Qur’an 11:6)
ALLAAH’S ATTRIBUTES:
If the Creator is Eternal and Everlasting, then His attributes must
also be eternal and everlasting. If this is so, then His attributes
are absolute. Can there be more than one Creator with such absolute attributes? Can there be for example, two absolutely powerful Creators? A moment’s thought shows that this is not feasible.
The Qur’an summarizes this argument in the following verses: “No son (or offspring or children) did Allâh beget, nor is there any ilâh
(god) along with Him; (if there had been many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have tried to overcome others! Glorified be Allâh above all that they attribute to Him!”
(Qur’an 23:91)
“Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allâh, then verily both would have been ruined. Glorified be Allâh,the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!”
(Qur’an 21:22)
THE ONENESS OF ALLAAH:
The Qur’an reminds us of the falsity of all alleged gods. To the
worshippers of man-made objects, it asks: “Do you worship what you have carved yourself?” (Qur’an 37:95)
Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?”
Say: “(It is) Allâh.” Say: “Have you then taken (for worship)
Auliyâ’ (protectors, etc.) other than Him, such as have no power
either for benefit or for harm to themselves?” Say: “Is the blind
equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light? Or do they
assign to Allâh partners who created the like of His creation, so
that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them.”
Say: “Allâh is the Creator of all things, He is the One, the
Irresistible.” (Qur’an 13:16)
You say you studied christianity, by default you also had to learn the teachings of islam. First of all, don't read your local newspapers in Malaysia as all the major papers are owned by political parties who allow only to be printed what they want to see printed... it is not the christians who confuse you, but your own media, your own government... never mind being confused by religion if you are already confused by your own governement and fellow muslims.
Your questions:
Q: "oh god why did you abandon me? Jesus said this. How can this appear in the bible when the Jesus was still alive?"
A: The bible was not writen by Jesus nor anyone from his time. Also, you seem to be confusing Jesus with god, which is wrong, it's Jesus son of god.
Q: "In the bible we read story of pornography and yet they call the bible as word of god".
A: Who claims the koran, made up by Mohammed, who was a child mollesting murderer, a maniac plundering and killing as he went allong is THE book to follow?
Lets not go into such a discussion because it will get ugly!
As to your statement;
Show me... who use ALLAH prior to the coming of Islam? If you are look back at the history of the revelation of holy books, you will be surprise that NONE of the holy books (namely schrool given to Abraham, Torah given to Moses, 10 commanments given to Moses, Zabur given to David, Injeel given to Jesus) use the alpabeth "Alif Lam Lam Ha' in arabic. Try prove to me. If the Arab bible use Allah ... it is because the arab Muslims are not sensitive about this term so they keep quite. The Indonesians muslims did not object to it because they too did not realise the future confusion. The Malaysian muslims are sensitive because they study the contradicting bibles.
My anwer to that: The average Malaysian muslim has never even seen a bible, nevermind studied it. And it is not the average muslim that is the problem (live and let live I say). The problem are your so called professional Malaysian muslims (mufti's or whatever titles they carry to claim authority), they got a few nuts and bolts that need tightening. If you folow the issue properly, it IS PROVEN that the word Allah does not belong to muslims (hence the court verdict in Malaysia), it is known that certain people within the governement made the mistake to comment on the issue while they should have know there was no issue whatsoever (confirmed by other muslim nation in the world). It is known that the issue is a major emberrasement for the Malaysian governement, and the only reason they appealed the verdict is because of some hardcore muslims who think they should be more muslim then the proffet Mohammed himself keep pushing the issue. The Malaysian governement has the problem that they need the muslim vote to remain in power, and hence semi-have to back the muslim/Malay side even though they know it goes agains the constitution, which claims religious freedom for all (except the Malay muslims).
The Allah-thing was not an issue until a select group turned it into one, and the entire thing went into overdrive when one of your politicians felt the need to support the idea. What should have happened? Your governement should not have taken sides on the issue (they should be neutral and serve ALL Malaysians). This would have avoided that the ramblings of a few shameful characters claiming to know islam better then a billion other muslims actually made the papers and never would have made it into court.
As for your bit on conversions, muslims 'breed' allot faster then anyone else on the planet. And while anyone else is able to convert, once muslim you are unlikely to be allowed to leave. If a father with 10 kids converts, all of sudden all kids are considered muslim, and his wife as well if she wishes to remain married to him. The choice of one person converts entire families!!! Hence I for one am not impressed by the total number of muslims in the world. Given the fact that many are literally trapped in this religion, it would be interesting to know the actual percentage of practising muslims compared to those who who are muslim on paper, but would convert to whatever if they would be allowed to do so. Again, due to the limitations on conversion and the fact that its teachings are not upgraded to fit the 21st century, Islam should be regarded a cult rather then a religion. The fact that is larger then any other cult, is the only reason why it is tollerated. Any other fruitcake who comes out with his own religion gets his ass picked up and thrown into the nuthouse, in Malaysia even send to a rehabilitation camp ... so called saving his muslim soul.
I for one fail to see the benefits of islam (or any other religion) it is backwards and unproductive. Islam brought no prosperity whatsoever to any muslim country (take away the oil money for a sec and see what is left). And before you tackle me on on that, the same goes for any country high on religion, any religion. It's sad to say, but islam today is less progressive then it used to be centuries ago when they were still contributing heavily to science and were still inovative.
Religion will be the downfall of mankind. __
backwards and unproductive. Islam brought no prosperity whatsoever to any
muslim country (take away the oil money for a sec and see what is left)"
The American Poem.
And, if it be your will, let there be financial dividends.
The logic follows the funds, o holy one, as you of course know.
If not, we will teach you.
I believe something, even as a cynical post-modern American. What I believe is that God (Allah) is embodied in all the places that this discussion is not. The fall of man happens when man is allowed to take their respective divisions and make war and blog comments. Revisiting my initial problem with this post; while trying to make a unitarian argument, it instead encourages division- human's favorite sport. The fall of man is logic. The moment that faith became a Trivial Pursuit topic- people missed the point...FOR EVERY RELIGION. The very study of religion in higher institutions disregards the idea of Omniscience. It's a beautiful idea. Leave it alone, please.
I saw a great quote the other day, which I cannot find whom to attribute it to.
Paraphrase: Ask a goat to draw a picture of God, and he will draw a goat.
"...I for one fail to see the benefits of islam (or any other religion) it is backwards and unproductive. Islam brought no prosperity whatsoever to any muslim country (take away the oil money for a sec and see what is left)....."
Just open your eyes wider!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpssVOcq10c&feature=related
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/index.php
Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow)
In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, Most Merciful
1. Alif-Lam-Mim. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'an and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings].
2. This is the Book (the Qur'an), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqun [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allah much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].
3. Who believe in the Ghaib and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and spend out of what we have provided for them [i.e. give Zakat , spend on themselves, their parents, their children, their wives, etc., and also give charity to the poor and also in Allah's Cause].
4. And who believe in (the Qur'an and the Sunnah) which has been sent down (revealed) to you (Muhammad Peace be upon him ) and in [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel), etc.] which were sent down before you and they believe with certainty in the Hereafter. (Resurrection, recompense of their good and bad deeds, Paradise and Hell, etc.).
5. They are on (true) guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful.
6. Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.
8. And of mankind, there are some (hypocrites) who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day" while in fact they believe not.
9. They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not!
10. In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies.
11. And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers."
12. Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not.
13. And when it is said to them (hypocrites): "Believe as the people (followers of Muhammad Peace be upon him , Al-Ansar and Al-Muhajirun) have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not.
14. And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their Shayatin (devils - polytheists, hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking."
15. Allah mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doings to wander blindly.
16. These are they who have purchased error for guidance, so their commerce was profitless. And they were not guided.
17. Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindled a fire; then, when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness. (So) they could not see.
18. They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path).
19. Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder, and lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunderclap for fear of death. But Allah ever encompasses the disbelievers (i.e. Allah will gather them all together).
20. The lightning almost snatches away their sight, whenever it flashes for them, they walk therein, and when darkness covers them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Certainly, Allah has power over all things.
21. O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allah), Who created you and those who were before you so that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).
22. Who has made the earth a resting place for you, and the sky as a canopy, and sent down water (rain) from the sky and brought forth therewith fruits as a provision for you. Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He Alone has the right to be worshipped).
23. And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'an) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.
24. But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.
25. And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) and they shall have therein Azwajun Mutahharatun (purified mates or wives), (having no menses, stools, urine, etc.) and they will abide therein forever.
26. Verily, Allah is not ashamed to set forth a parable even of a mosquito or so much more when it is bigger (or less when it is smaller) than it. And as for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth from their Lord, but as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did Allah intend by this parable?" By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. And He misleads thereby only those who are Al-Fasiqun (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah).
Lack of dialogue creates even larger divides. If you go out with your friends, you only talk about birds and bees, sticking your head in the sand? I'm an atheist btw.
@J
While I understand your point of view, I dissagree that logic would be the downfall, in my humble opinion it should be the solution. People are willingly programmed with the idea that there must be a higher being (god or whatever) ... why? It's like believing in ghosts or like chasing UFOs, ...all of that sometimes makes for interesting and compeling stories, but in they end you let logic prevail and you move on. Of course, people are free (?) to think for themselves and believe whatever they want, but then, don't bother others with it.
And lets not forget what the article is about. It is not about differences between religions, or who's right and who's wrong, who's religion is better... no, it is about some religious radical nutcase claiming a the word Allah on behalf of the muslims (who did not even ask for it), in effect pushing to legaly have it copyrighted for the exclusive use of muslims. It is about one (religious) group of people forcing their awkward will upon another, and by doing so taking a solid wack at peoples individual rights and freedom. Just like the headscarf issue, or for that matter even the push for halal foods, these represent just one small step of a greater scheme. See it as a gradual introducion into islam if you will, plan B for those who whish not to convert. Individually they are small insignificant issues, which you can and most people will ignore, but add it all up and you will see it all fits in a larger context. Islam only serves one purpose. The koran for Mohamed would be no more then part of a strategy.
I can get nice quotes and sound advice from my parents and elders, which I will respect endlessly more then any quotes from a 'Holy' book.
Here's a quote:
What has He done for you lately?
(Janet Jackson)
I enjoy the rigorous discussion, but I disagree on what the article is about; only because of tone and context- not the content. We aren't in a vacuum. We all are, i think. cognisant of the political climate in which we live. If we were all either Christian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or Hindu, or etc., such an article would be unnecessary. Further, if it weren't for the political weight that these claims made, we would again have no need to bring up what is basically a linguistic discussion, of what our english word for "the maker" is.
Go to this very nice man's website and with your logical mind, try and tell me that there is no axe to grind. I promise you, I agree with most of his conclusions- about man and the governance thereof. But I believe in the separation of church and state for a more philosophical reason that most seem to anymore. They are absolutely incompatible...always. You'll never be able to prove or disprove faith. That's the point. A higher power does not need your liberal arts education, no matter the rigor. Somewhere on this thread someone put a video of a Harvard Seminary graduate who converted from Christianity to Islam. It was sad to see someone waste his life trying to intellectualize God. I bet the ghost of Sitting Bull is laughing his ass off somewhere. Western thought doesn't change that much, nor does our arrogance. You don't fight wars (period, would be ideal) on this subtle holy war context. Christians and Muslims, blah blah blah. There is a very long history of Western countries going into Islamic countries for whatever reasons (mostly economic, masked as "freedom"). It doesn't matter that Christianity has been replaced by humanism as a rationale...we're still trying to get wealth.
It would be refreshing to see a theological professor say that he went into the Wilderness (Bob Marshall?) and said he was sick of seminary and was converting to trees and alpine lakes. Like Moses. Many of us can relate to that...right?
Quote: Religion will be the downfall of mankind
Ans; Really? Are you sure? Show me any country that have no religion and yet very successful.
If you have not read the entire Quran say so. I doubt very much you read the bible too.
So you are free thinker. You dont believe that your flesh is nothing but future 'dead body' with awful smell. Those people without religion, they have no hope in life except eat and sleep and make money. Is that your objective in life?
Quote: The bible was not writen by Jesus nor anyone from his time. Also, you seem to be confusing Jesus with god, which is wrong, it's Jesus son of god.
Ans: God has a son? You mean the wife of God is Mary?
I see you are more confused in getting angry with Malaysian Government. I am not a politican but I respect any government that is formed through democracy. By the way, if you dont like the Malaysian government, why stay in Malaysia.
You have not answerd my question. Prove to me that the word Allah (Alif Lam Lam Ha) is written in other holy books prior to the revelation of the Quran. Forget about the high court decision because they can still appeal to the supreme court. In the first place, it should not even be brought to court because the court is NOT in the position to decide who wins. This is part of Law that you as foreigner should not interfere.
Quote: You say you studied christianity, by default you also had to learn the teachings of islam.
Ans: What makes you say I also had to learn the teaching of Islam. Is it me to learn or you? By your comments... your knowledge of Islam is shallow because you only see the negative points... you missed the bigger picture due to your own arrogance.
Quote:The bible was not writen by Jesus nor anyone from his time. Also, you seem to be confusing Jesus with god, which is wrong, it's Jesus son of god.
Ans: Thats the point. The bible was not written by Jesus.... this proved that the bible is not autentic.
If the the bible is not autentic... then why mess up with the word Allah?
Once again... prove to me the word Allah (Alif Lam Lam Ha - double Lam to give you a clue) was used prior to Islam.
Quote: Religion will be the downfall of mankind
Ans; Really? Are you sure? Show me any country that have no religion and yet very successful.
Reply: Very sure, it's a no brainer. Most wars being fought are religious wars and more often then not involve muslims on one side and anyone else on the other.
As for a country with no religion that is succesful,... i never claimed countries with religion cannot be succesful, what I said was, take away the oil and then tell me which muslim country does well. That's a totally different question.
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So you are free thinker. You dont believe that your flesh is nothing but future 'dead body' with awful smell. Those people without religion, they have no hope in life except eat and sleep and make money. Is that your objective in life?
Reply: Nope :)
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Quote: The bible was not writen by Jesus nor anyone from his time. Also, you seem to be confusing Jesus with god, which is wrong, it's Jesus son of god.
Ans: God has a son? You mean the wife of God is Mary?
Reply: Unless he was a violent child rapist like Mhd., yes. Jesus is just a prophet, like Muhammed, ...and just like the muslims, the christians follow the prophet more then their actual god.
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I see you are more confused in getting angry with Malaysian Government. I am not a politican but I respect any government that is formed through democracy. By the way, if you dont like the Malaysian government, why stay in Malaysia.
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I care less about your government my friend, but it does not mean I am unaware of how they do things here. Opposition is tackled well before elections, by bribe or by scandal. Seek info on the Anwar case, the by-elections, etc... Your governement is corrupt to the bone, which is why Ex-PM Badawi had to step out of office, he couldn't solve this chronical problem.
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You have not answerd my question. Prove to me that the word Allah (Alif Lam Lam Ha) is written in other holy books prior to the revelation of the Quran. Forget about the high court decision because they can still appeal to the supreme court. In the first place, it should not even be brought to court because the court is NOT in the position to decide who wins. This is part of Law that you as foreigner should not interfere.
Reply: (Malaysian) Lawyers provided this info, (Malaysian) judges had to ignore the request to ban the word Allah for christians.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah6.htm
Is but one of the many sources available to you courtesy of your prefered search engine.
If the court is not in the position to decide who's right and who's wrong then you just put islam above the law... please explain how you justify this? And yes, I do know that muslims can go to court under sharia law if they wish to do so. But still, law is law, muslims/Malays are not above it.
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Quote: You say you studied christianity, by default you also had to learn the teachings of islam.
Ans: What makes you say I also had to learn the teaching of Islam. Is it me to learn or you? By your comments... your knowledge of Islam is shallow because you only see the negative points... you missed the bigger picture due to your own arrogance.
Reply: 1) You're a muslim. 2) You have the same urge as any other muslim, playing victim and telling everyone else they are wrong even though you bring nothing to the table to support that.
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Quote:The bible was not writen by Jesus nor anyone from his time. Also, you seem to be confusing Jesus with god, which is wrong, it's Jesus son of god.
Ans: Thats the point. The bible was not written by Jesus.... this proved that the bible is not autentic.
Reply: The koran was not writen by Allah either, but by a child molesting plunderer with 14 wifes who took part and pieces of scripturesand ideas of religions going around at the time, adjusting to his needs.
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If the the bible is not autentic... then why mess up with the word Allah?
Reply: There is no such thing as an authentic religion. Even islam is flawed. Google your verses once in while.
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Once again... prove to me the word Allah (Alif Lam Lam Ha - double Lam to give you a clue) was used prior to Islam.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
or
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1262372345642&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIELayout
Do look up the "background on the word Allah" bit.
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You ask me to defend my point of view, how about you throw in some facts which allow you to have a different opinion and question mine? Discussion is something the mulims lack, how about you set an example here?
Unless you tell me your shit doesn't stink and you are you better then anyone else simply because you're muslim (or a lefty, that is a muslim hugging liberal-democrat).
I like the way you say "you only see the negative points", I'm not saying you confirmed them, but you did not deny them either... at the very least I understand that you are aware of them but prefer to ignore them claiming I'm the one lacking knowledge simply because I'm pointing out a few things.
Unfortunately you cannot go on about the good things unless you are prepared to discuss the bad ones. And this is where most muslims turn ostrich and stick their head in the sand. Most likely because it is an argument they cannot win. It's easier playing victim and pointing fingers ... kinda like some kids blaming each other for something that went wrong.
Right now some 'kids' are fighting over the the word 'Allah', the vast majority of the world, muslims included, don't give a damn, ...only a select group of extremist somewhere in Malaysia.
It's simple, if muslims claim Allah is the one and only, then everyone is alowed to use this word, you can't claim a god !!!
Quote;
Unfortunately you cannot go on about the good things unless you are prepared to discuss the bad ones. And this is where most muslims turn ostrich and stick their head in the sand.
Ans: If you are working in the human resources management (HRM) department and you pinpoint only the negative things that your subordinates did then you are not fit to be an HRM manager. Worse still you are not fit to be in any organizations simply because you dont give credit to the positive things but mere looking at the negative. The word suited to you is 'fault finder'. If the fault is genuine then people can take it but if you try to pinpoint the faultly issues and start exagrating and infalting it then you are creating a big 'stumbling block' in front of you. And the end-result will be, people will hate you even your closest friend and family. You are injustice to others.
"ostrich" That what you think. NO, NO... Some muslims will stand up and speak up. Refer to Ahmad Deedat debate in the internet and you will find that learnerd muslims has started to speak up and debate the so called learned of the christians and what happened... many christians started to get emotional and shout at Ahmad Deedat on stage. Did Ahmad Deedat stick his head in the sand? Read the book "Fog is lifting" written by Fadel (Bridging Foundations). Many others are producing high quality video to be watched by people like you. Do they (muslims) hide their face under the sand?. I think you are reading books that were written by a bias writers and media.
Quote: if muslims claim Allah is the one and only, then everyone is alowed to use this word, you can't claim a god !!!
Ans: Yes you are free to use the word Allah provided that you acknowledged the attributes of Allah namely... "begets not nor begotten", doesnot rest on Saturday, doesnot get tired, does not eat, original Torah, Zabur and Injeel are all at your hand. Dont use Allah when you claim that she (Allah) has a son called Jesus son of Allah (Jesus S/O Allah).
You have not answered my question about proof of the use of word "Alif Lam Lam Ha" (Allah) prior to Islam. The website that you have given are baseless. They are one of the weakest exibits in your proof. You are claiming to be knowledgable in Islam based on 8 years of study in Malaysia. I repeat 8 years in Malaysia. Wow!. With 8 years, you must have completed your PhD (ie. 3 years first degree, 2 years of Masters Degree and 2 years of PhD and 1 year doing beautiful research on Islam and Malaysian politics). Are you turning into ostrich?
Quote:
I care less about your government my friend, but it does not mean I am unaware of how they do things here. Opposition is tackled well before elections, by bribe or by scandal.
Ans: You talk as if you are a 'political science' expert. Give me a name of one of your favorite goverment that is 100% bribeless and clean. US? India? UK? China?
Ans: "silly", "idiotic" I think your parent use a lot of these words at home. LOL
I'm not a student, nor a political expert or whatever, where you get this BS?
I did answer your question, but you choose to ignore. I bet you didn't even read the contents. I can give you a list of a hundred pages quoting sources and you will ignore willigly, then what is the point of me trying to point somethin out to you. Also, again, the Malaysian court has decided against the muslim claim to reserve the word Allah for muslims only... not without reason I'm sure! If the arguments provided were not strong enough then they would have ruled in favor of the muslims/Malays. Given the fact that Malaysian courts are very biased and usually rule in favour of the Malays, this must mean that the evidence and arguments provided would hold up even in an international court. But oh yeah, I forgot... you said court was not not in the position to rule on this matter, islam for you is above the law.
I don't need to butter your ass saying how good islam is while at the same time ignoring the bad... ...ignoring the bad is a muslims default setting because it goes against the teachings of the koran, it's convenient, it does not require any justification. Whatever dude... don't reply unless you are willing to get your head out of the sand.
As for your latest post, ... at least we agree that the Allah controverse is a non-issue, though for different reasons.
So fr you have not counteed any of my statements with an answer that would prove me wrong. You try to justify all the bad stuff and corruption by comparing to other who also do bad. I guess it is ok with you to be bad as long as someone else is bad.
So much for setting the example. You only confirm stereotype muslim behaviour many non-muslims have in mind. You should be considered a disgrace to your kind, because it is because of people like you, who put religion above the law, justifying all wrong with wrongs of others.
You are unable to discuss the matter properly with this attitude. And therefore no longer worth my time.
I asked you to produce an evidence to prove that "Alif Lam Lam Ha" (double "Lam") has been used before the coming of Islam but your proof is not a proof.
Quote: "Given the fact that Malaysian courts are very biased and usually rule in favour of the Malays, this must mean that the evidence and arguments provided would hold up even in an international court".
Ans: Give evidence please. You are so fond of making allegations but NO proof. If you cant give evidence then readers will judge whether you are telling the truth or just another piece of lie.
Quote:"You try to justify all the bad stuff and corruption by comparing to other who also do bad. I guess it is ok with you to be bad as long as someone else is bad".
Ans: If your allegation is true then prove it. You started it by saying that Malaysian government is full of corrupt pratices so I am asking you to give me one good nation in the entire world that is corruption-free.
You throw allegations after another but you cant prove it so what are you up to?
You've been given answers, not my fault you can't read.
Instead of a proper responce you're bouncing my questions with other questions which demand an failry generic answer which in your mind probably justifies the way muslims behave or better misbehave. So far you have allready put muslims/islam above the law, you refuse to accept any answers given, you refuse to provide proper answers yourself. To all this I only have question; why? Tell me why you put muslim/islamn above the law, why you do not accept my answers, why you bounce questions with another question and I will respond. Right now it's a fairly one sided discussion. No point for me to entertain this any further. And no I am not evading anything, I just don't fancy monologues.
If you are in a court of law, allegations without proof will be thrown out.
Quote: "So far you have allready put muslims/islam above the law. Tell me why you put muslim/islamn above the law"
Ans: Another allegation. Big LOL. Are you saying that I am the one responsible to put Islam above the law? Why me?. I am layman. I am not the prime minister. I am not a politican. I dont hold any goverment post. Blame the Malaysian Government for their system. It just that I respect all government including your government, if you are not Malaysian.
Maleisie,
You are being influenced or intoxicated by your hate in other religions. Sorry to pass judgement on you but you are really an excellent inciters, inciting others into believing that someone is bad and you are a good breed of human in this world!.
Quote: "Since January 7, 10 churches, a convent, and a Sikh temple have been fire bombed by militants on motorcycles. The Sikhs have been targeted because they have always used Allah for God".
Ans: Either, someone has given you the wrong figures or you read articles that were written by 'inciters'. Last month, I read similar articles publised by Canadian saying that 9 churches were burned and now I read yours saying 10 churches. Next month 'inciters' will write 20 churches burned-downed to ashes and a photograph of US-bombed of building will appear as if they were Malaysian burned churches. LOL.
Quote Jayabdih: "If you are in a court of law, allegations without proof will be thrown out."
But it didn't, court ruled against it.
You conveniently ignore this fact. Why?
(And for your convenience and answer taken from one of your comments follows below)
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Quote Maleisie: "So far you have allready put muslims/islam above the law. Tell me why you put muslim/islamn above the law"
Ans Jayabdih: Another allegation.
Reply Maleisie: Is it now? I quote you from your own words above (and this is also the answer to previous mentioned); "Forget about the high court decision" ... "the court is NOT in the position to decide" ...so if court can't decide, then who can? Obviously nobody, hence your remark puts islam above the law.
Question Maleisie: Why?
-----------------------
You didn't anwer several questions, you did not respond properly to any coments made. Instead you bounce questions with other questions, pointing fingers...
Quote Jayabdih: "You are being influenced or intoxicated by your hate in other religions. Sorry to pass judgement on you but you are really an excellent inciters, inciting others into believing that someone is bad and you are a good breed of human in this world!."
Answer Maleisie: I don't have anything against islam as a religion, however I do not have to agree that they are above the law, I do not have to agree that they push their wills and beliefs upon others, I do not have to agree that more oftenthen not (for whatever reason) certain muslims abuse the contents of the koran to justify violence or other, I do not have to agree to dumbass claims such as the one for the word 'Allah', I do not have to agree to their cult-like behaviour (once muslim always muslim), I do not have to agree to how they treat people from other beliefs or for that matter even their own woman...
And I especially do not have to agree with someone with a 'holier-than-thou' attitude like you, putting islam and their muslims followers above the law, trying to convince the rest of the world that they don't understand, while trying to justify muslim wrong doings with those of other.
You can't trust people who read/own/know only one book. Unfortunately when when there is a discussion between a muslim and non-muslim, this is exactly what happens... they fall back on one book and everything else doesn't matter. And this for the most part explains the gap between muslims and others. Muslims should realise that their centuries old book probably did its thing in the old days, but some of its content no longer fits in a 21st century context. Nobody can predicted the future, nobody can set guidelines for it. Every muslim who follows the koran up to the letter, not being able to take some of it's content with a pinch of salt, not being able to put its content into present day context, is a dangerous one.
Each country, each muslim interpretates the koran in their own way. Thanks to some violent verses filled with hatred you end up with muslims being part of most confilts in the world. Thanks to other verses most muslim nations have found themselves in the backseat of the global economy. EVen the muslims used to produce brilliant minds and groundbraking discoveries... but even this is no longer the case... ask yourself the question why that is. Islam might have been concidered progressive a long, long time ago... but does it still work today? Does is restrict its followers from progessing now more then even before?
In the end, the koran, just like any other book, contains no more then a set of guidelines which you do or do not choose to follow, ...when it becomes a way of life, that is where the problems start. Freedom of choice is a must.