Group launches initiative to ban trapping in Montana
By Anja, Unfiltered 1-05-10
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Welcome to The Clark Fork Chronicle
Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 01:56 PM MST
Group launches initiative to ban trapping in Montana
Tuesday, January 05 2010 @ 12:51 PM MST
Contributed by: Admin
Views: 8
by Anja Heister and Connie Poten
Montana Trap-Free Public Lands has officially launched its website, http://www.mttrapfree.org . The website provides information about the proposed Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Citizens’ Initiative 160 (I-160) to make Montana’s public lands trap-free, including the actual ballot language as well as ways to help get it on the ballot for voters in the November 2010 election.
The initiative prohibits recreational trapping of fur-bearing animals, game animals, migratory birds, upland game birds, predatory animals and certain non-game wildlife except for scientific and propagation purposes or for health and safety. Employees of schools, public buildings and buildings on public lands will continue to be able to use traps for health and safety reasons. Trapping on private lands, 65 percent of Montana, will not be affected by this initiative.
Montanans For Trap-Free Public Lands (MTFPL) have found that traps undermine the safety of public land and are an unethical way to pursue wildlife because they kill and maim indiscriminately, cause wanton waste and provide no fair chase. Traps also undermine sound wildlife management because no reliable data exists on what animals are trapped, claim Montanans For Trap-Free Public Lands. Further, they say, sensitive and threatened species are at risk of extinction in Montana due to traps, including marten, otter, lynx, wolverine, fisher and swift fox.
Trapping brings $94,000 to the state annually, compared to $65 million hunting and fishing bring, and $376 million wildlife watching brings. By taking away the trapping pressure, the state would allow sensitive species to revive, attracting more revenue from wildlife watching, a major source of income to Montana.
MTFPL also asserts that traps are cruel. Animals chew off their legs or ‘wring off’ by twisting their bodies until the limb is separated from the joint to escape. Animals suffer for days from fear and pain until a trapper clubs them to death. The American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Animal Hospital Association, the World Veterinary Association, and the National Animal Control Association have all condemned the steel-jawed leg-hold trap, the most commonly used trap, as inhumane.
For background information on the issue of trapping on public lands, and to see where reported traps are, please visit http://www.footloosemontana.org .
I-160 needs 25,000 signatures from across the state of Montana to qualify for the ballot. The deadline for gathering signatures is June 16, 2010.
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Comments
Maybe though this shouldn't come as a surprise since MFWP's "furbearer coordinator", Brian Giddings, is a long time trapper himself and regularly keeps the trapping organizations in Montana apprised of any threat to their sadistic hobby.
Bwhwhahahahah, typically ignorant, uneducated, immature comment that one might expect. Wow, talk about pathetic. Here's a 'educated' sportsman with an post-graduate degree who has actually been on a trapline and what I have seen, with my own eyes contradicts much of what this article portrays. In terms of producing more wildlife if trapping is banned, perhaps the author(s) of this initiative should do some more research before making such unfounded conclusions. Studies conducted by Delta Waterfowl, have conclusively shown that trapping has a significantly positive impact on the nesting success of all numbers of ground nesting birds. The expansion of non-natives species (such as skunks, raccoons and foxes (in some areas)) have had tremendously negative impacts on our native wildlife. Trapping these species has been shown to directly and significantly improve nesting successes. If non-targeted species are caught in 'leg hold traps' (leg hold traps is actually incorrect as the trap DOES NOT HOLD THE LEG!), are easily and quickly released unharmed. I have released my dogs from traps many times and within 1 second of being released they have immediately resumed normal activity with zero ill-effects. Traps are not the horrible, dangerous, evil tool that they are labeled by these groups. Trappers themselves are by and large, ethical and intelligant; calling somone you disagree with 'uneducated and stupid' is absolutely ignorant and shows that you have zero experience with the topic of discussion. The misinformation, arrogance and ingnorance that is being distributed by Footloose Montana is shameful and disgusting. I fully expect my comments to be deleted because they don't conform to the 'educated views' of those who support this initiative, but I am unwilling to let such ignorance pass unfettered.
I would suggest that the author of this article (and some of it's commentors) stay in school and continue their education; for it appears that they are not yet ready for the real world.
Really, what is happening in MT? Transplants who lived in apartments all their lives, following their dogs with plastic bags to pick up after them Now they want to change the way Montanan's have live their lives for generations. Totally disgusting. The article makes empty promises and is based in ignorant opinions, not facts. Sounds like our new Liberal President. Empty promises, like lowering taxes, getting out of the Middle East, being Transparent. Gee, those things didn't happen either.
Trapping serves a valuable service in a time when man has changed the landscape, and prey animals no longer have places to avoid predators. Trapping serves to 'control' predators, not eliminate them.
Move back to California, and take your petition with you.
Overall this article sounds more like a propaganda missive from MTFPL than proper, neutral, journalistic reporting.
I agree with the others who commented above. This situation sounds like a bunch of emotionally-driven, self-righteous transplants trying to run other people's lives.
I-160, if passed by the voters of Montana, would prohibit trapping on public lands, “except as allowed for scientific and propagation purposes or for the actions of government in protecting the safety and health of citizens.”
MEWM avoids what makes trapping unacceptable today: Trapping is torture. Nobody is entitled to endanger other people’s safety or to be cruel to animals. Nobody has the right to kill endangered species—it’s a criminal offense. Everyone has the right to use public lands safely.
I-160 does not, as MEWM claims, require law enforcement to remove problem animals from city parks, schools, golf courses, alleys or buildings on leased land. Any state worker can set traps for health and safety on any public lands. Problem rodents except for muskrats and beaver can be trapped by anyone. Trapping on private land, 65 percent of Montana, will not be affected by I-160.
Montanans for Trap-Free Public Lands is not an animal rights group. It is citizens who have compiled overwhelming evidence that traps undermine the safety of adults, children and pets using public lands. Tens of thousands of baited and concealed traps are strewn from roadways to remote mountaintops; traps for certain species can be anywhere, anytime, unlicensed. One $30 furbearer license covers unlimited traps. Any creature can stride into them. As a trapper says, “It’s like Christmas, you never know what you’ll find.” For every target animal caught, it is documented that two others are killed and discarded.
The anguish caused by trapping is indisputable. What would it take for you to chew off your leg? Better than being clubbed to death, or stomped on until one’s lungs collapse. This goes against all ethics; there is no fair chase, no clean, quick kill, plenty of wanton waste.
Trapping brings in $94,000 annually to the state. Compare that to the $226 million fishing brings, the $310 million hunting brings, and the whopping $500 million wildlife watching brings to the state. Yet we’re allowing the most wonderful, rare and reclusive animals to be trapped out. Five celebrated Montana species are now hanging by a thread—lynx, wolverine, fisher, marten and otter. In every case, traps are the leading cause for their steep decline.
MEWM predicts an apocalyptic invasion of mammals that will flood the land, kill birds and fish and plunge us into plague if I-160 passes. In fact, trapping contributes nothing to wildlife management, disease control or population control.
The least efficient way to protect livestock on public lands is trapping because it is indeterminate. Many non-target animals are killed, and their offspring die as a result. No matter how many coyotes are trapped, their population remains constant. They are self-regulating, as are many species. One would have to kill 70 percent of the coyotes to put a dent in the population, a slaughter that has never been achieved.
Upstream on public lands, beaver—a favorite trapping target—build dams that create nurseries for fish, birds and other wildlife. These dams raise aquifer levels and store water for irrigation and drinking; they sustain healthy watersheds and wetlands, mitigating drought and acting as natural firebreaks. Flooding problems most often occur on private land. If flooding occurs on public land, I-160 promotes trapping for health and safety.
If predators threaten the survival of upland game birds by eating too many eggs, I-160 allows trapping under the scientific and propagation clause.
MEWM clangs the bell of rampant disease if public lands are trap-free, but it’s a false alarm. “FWP regulates furbearer trapping seasons for recreational harvest opportunities,” wrote Brian Giddings, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. “Montana’s harvest seasons are not based on reducing or controlling diseases.”
The very animals trapped are the ones that feed on the rodents that carry hanta virus and other common diseases. Sick animals aren’t lured into traps; healthy ones are.
Pets are in far more danger from traps than they are from disease already covered by routine vaccination. If a rabid animal is in the neighborhood, I-160 promotes trapping for health and safety.
With great respect for Jim Bridger and his fur-trading brethren, I believe they would agree that today Montana’s public lands and wildlife are not only Montana’s heritage, they are Montana’s future and should be trap-free.
Submitted by Connie Poten
Montanans for Trap-Free Public Lands
To read Initiative I-160, go to http://www.mttrapfree.org
For information about trapping, go to http://www.footloosemontana.org
To help please call 406-274-4791 or go to http://www.mttrapfree.org
I'm going to refrain from throwing out a a list of ill-concieved or mis-interpreted data or 'facts'. Instead, I suppose an open minded person can make up their mind themselves on this issue. However, before a person makes a decisions in either direction they should spend time learning about trapping and how it is really done. Non-targeted animals are released easily and without hard under almost every circumstance and anyone who has been on a trapline knows that. Engandered species killed in traps? Endangered species are killed by cars, shoes, urban development, house cats and idiots who pet them too hard. I hardly think that traps are the causative agent behind species decline. In fact, trapping can have a HUGELY POSITIVE impact on endangered species by helping remove invasive species from native environments thereby allowing other wildlife greater chances of reproductive success. These are points ignored by the 'author' of this article. Perhaps there is a biased agenda in this article????? As a resource professional who spends countless hours actively enhancing, restoring and protecting our natural resources, I find these heart-wrentching, emotion-driven hystaria a complete waste of time and resources. Take your emotion out of the equation, don't let it drive because you are taking all of us off a cliff.
*please impart a dripping layer of sacrasm when interpreting these sentences.
January 9, 2010 at 12:15 AM
I still keep coming back to the same question. With professional responsibilities taking up so much time and energy nowadays, with household expenses on the rise, with the cost of raising and properly educating kids, with the need to mentor kids to keep them on track for higher education, what kind of creepy dingbat spends his time and money running around setting and running traplines in order to enjoy the thrill of slowly killing and ripping the skins off little animals. I’m sorry; but, this kind of behavior, in this day and time and especially in the case of somebody who would fight to keep doing it, seems way too close to the behavior of some kind of psychopathic predator, maybe a serial sex offender of some kind.
I realize that most trappers don't acknowledge it, but humans ARE supposed to be somewhat civilized, except that portion of the population as quoted above that have psychopathic tendencies or are serial offenders.
What I am saying is that making any judgemental statement about someone is wrong, no matter how you paint it. You can say that trappers are "psychotic", "sadistic", ect, if you want, but the truth is that by making judgements about people you don't know and don't understand is IGNORANT, period. You preach about "open-mindedness", but everyone knows that people like you are extremely selective in the application of that principle. You aren't fooling anyone and you honestly are not as intellegent as you think you are. I'm not calling anyone stupid, but a college education doesn't mean squat in terms of intellegents.
Today I went fishing. Brought home a nice batch of perch and walleye for the grease. I suppose I too am a sadistic killer who enjoys yanking helpless fish out of the water by their lips! Well, you've got me labeled just about right. I'll stand side-by-side with my brothers who enjoy recreating outdoors be them fellow fishermen, hunters, trappers, bird watchers or hikers. And, like millions of other outdoor enthusiasts who respect others who chose to spend time outdoors and honors that right, I will fight until the day I die to protect our rights as sportsmen. TRAP ON FELLOW SPORTSMEN, TRAP ON!
Some of you people could learn a thing or two about it yourselves.
Most responsible trappers go to great lengths to set their traps where there is very little chance of catching someones pet. When you say "Public Lands" you incompass a huge area that sees very few people after hunting season. I would hazard a guess that most traps that are set close to popular trails are set by kids trying to make a little extra spending money. If that is the case a lot of the problem might be solved with a little education.
Nature has its own way of controling animal populations and the predator like a wolf or lion is not the most cruel way, starvation and desease are much crueler in my humble opinion. Muskrat and beaver (being rodents) can quickly over populate an area. First they eat all of the available food then they contract tularemia and die off. It takes a few years but eventually the habitate recovers, they move back into the area and the process starts over. As with most of our "renewable" resources with proper management (trapping) they become a sustainable healthy population long term. When properly trapped they die very quickly so I ask, which is crueler?
Trapping has been part of our tradition here in Montana since Jim Bridger and many times it is handed down for generations within a family. My first "white" ancestor came into this country with the mountain men and we have been trapping here off and on every since.
Maybe the answer is to learn where to walk your dogs????
Unfortunately, for most of the radicals pushing this agenda, the answer is to effectively try to impede on our ways of life and control everyone so that everyone thinks the same way as the radicals. This, to the radical, is open-mindedness, a world where everyone lives according to the same traditions and by-laws; one culture, one lifestyle, one way of thinking. The radical will accept your way of life, as long as it is the same as their own, their suburban/urban upbringing and the same as the propaganda espoused by their like-minded professor who delivers their 'higher education'. To the radical, diversity is a key word, but its meaning is lost in translation.
AnIdahoguy "This situation sounds like a bunch of emotionally-driven, self-righteous transplants trying to run other people's lives."
What are u talking abvout this is about preventing the extinction of martens, fishers and possibly wolverines due to an unrelemnting trapping season. The season for wolverines is 5 animals. Thats soo low it hardly justofies a season. Actually it's the trappers who are forcing their way of life on everyone regradless if it spells the extinction of certain species or places people and pets in danger. Trapping organizations obviuosly hold a lot of sway if you can actually still trap wolverines,fishers and martens in MT.
I would'nt be against all trapping but certainly the aforementioned members of the weasel family.
the right wing crazies are coming out of the wood work for this thread.
By SupportSportsmen, 1-10-10
By the same token, Jerry is obviously one of those guys who enjoys going to little league games to watch little kids run around because he is a pervert and pedophile.
WTF r u talking about u psycho.
The real reason for these age restrictions is not, of course, a matter of time alone but of mental state, stability, and development. If an individual displays a mental age too low to be trusted with toys that involve possible risks to public health and safety, then the public has every right to take action to curtail the access of such miscreants to such toys and that is clearly the case with the hostile, illiterate, and mentally unstable comments recently offered by Dave Skinner and reinforced by "has the runs with elk" and with so many other comments that grace any discussion of trapping, hunting, gun rights, or the ability of immature people to access their favorite toys. The truth is that most people have a hard time seeing how trapping could possibly be anyone with sufficient mental maturity to be trusted doing it. Those are just the facts and they will eventually be borne out at the ballot box, either sooner or later.
All seriousness aside, my favorite trapper comment was from the kid (mental state at least) going by Kookanee. This kook invoked the "spirits" of Sun Tzu and Genghis Khan to justify trapping weasels and such. Just the thought of it was astounding, invoking the military minds of the Dark Ages as a reason for skulking around the woods trapping little animals and ripping their skins off. Kookanee clearly has more Sunkist than Sun Tzu about him, because Kookanee, like other trappers, is just another total fruit.
Just because they came from a city/state where there is no hunting/trapping,they think it should be like that everywhere.
People new to an area should learn,and respect the customs of the people who have lived there all of their lives.
The name calling starts from those on the "Left",who then say the "Right wing Crazies" have been brought by this proposed law.
Montana Fish and Wildlife has been doing an excellent job of managing the hunting/trapping resources,don't let a bunch of "Outsiders" with definite "Left Wing Crazy" views even come close to shutting down trapping.
Where do they get the 65% of land in Montana is private?
As usual,making the "Facts" fit the agenda.
I'm willing to bet that not one of these so called "outdoorspeople" could even survive a night or two lost in the wilderness areas they know so much about.They venture outside when it is nice,stay outside a few hours,then go back to their cozy million dollar plus homes.
Trapping brings a lot more money to the state then they say,most trappers are also hunters and fishermen,add up the fees! They also live here year round. I'm betting a lot of those for this bill are summer only residents.
They need to get some up to date info on how traps work,and trapping.
Well you've acurately demonstrated how outlandishly prejudiced and moronic the right wing crazies really are.
What are you blubbering about the outsiders
How the heck would you know about people's suvival skills and outdoor habits if they're left wing.
You really are a moron and yes i'm calling you names becuase you deserve it.
BTW I just got back from a solo multi day trek into a roadless wilderness and I go out rain or shine.
LMAO....what an idiot hick.
they're trying to end hunting pouting an name calling rant
"By jerry, 1-06-10
It's mind boggling that Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks still allows trapping for Wolverine and Fisher, both of which are presently being considered for listing as endangered. Add to that the fact that MFWP allows trapping in areas of Lynx habitat, a species that IS listed as a threatened species. How many Lynx die as a result of "incidental catch"? Nobody knows and I'm sure trappers aren't going to turn themselves in.
Maybe though this shouldn't come as a surprise since MFWP's "furbearer coordinator", Brian Giddings, is a long time trapper himself and regularly keeps the trapping organizations in Montana apprised of any threat to their sadistic hobby."
yeah real great job the MT FWP are doing hill hick.
No more trapping of Wolverine, Fisher or Marten in MT.
AnIdahoguy "This situation sounds like a bunch of emotionally-driven, self-righteous transplants trying to run other people's lives."
What are u talking abvout this is about preventing the extinction of martens, fishers and possibly wolverines due to an unrelemnting trapping season. The season for wolverines is 5 animals. Thats soo low it hardly justofies a season. Actually it's the trappers who are forcing their way of life on everyone regradless if it spells the extinction of certain species or places people and pets in danger. Trapping organizations obviuosly hold a lot of sway if you can actually still trap wolverines,fishers and martens in MT.
I would'nt be against all trapping but certainly the aforementioned members of the weasel family.
By Lesley Chow, 1-15-10
All this talk of radicals and transplants
the right wing crazies are coming out of the wood work for this thread.
Funny no matter how many times people point this out the right wing crazies just belllow on belligerent as ever.
What's a suvival skill?
And you have the nerve to call someone a moron?
What are you blubbering about the outsiders?
That the majority of people who want this law enacted are not from Montana,they moved from elsewhere. This attempt to end trapping on public lands is financed by "outsiders"
Did you ever think that some people trap to earn money?
The season limits are set to insure sustainability of the population.
Just like all the outcry over wolf hunting. Does not matter that the wolves have decimated the northern Yellowstone elk herd.
See what happens,this will never be voted into law.
I don't see all the wildlife watchers paying anywhere near the fees the hunters and trappers pay to use the public lands.
"Funny no matter how many times people point this out the right wing crazies just belllow on belligerent as ever."
Because what is being proposed would ban ALL trapping on public lands.
Update yourselves on currently used traps,and trapping. Many half-truths are being spread about this,by those opposed to trapping.
They venture outside when it is nice,stay outside a few hours,then go back to their cozy million dollar plus homes."
These are not the people supporting this?
you call me out on an obviuos typo, baahahhaa! "Survival" happy moron grammar nazi....bahahhahahaa!
and look he's already blubbering about wolves and an end to all hunting.
"They venture outside when it is nice,stay outside a few hours,then go back to their cozy million dollar plus homes."
These are not the people supporting this?"
are you that dumb, I just explained to you that i'm not one of those people an I support trapping reform at least in MT.
youre an idiot who thinks we should still trap wolverines.
and your just another outlandishly prejudiced right wing nut job.
BTW a lot of people in MT support trapping reform and you don't speak for the people of MT you speak for the prejudiced right wing crazy nut jobs.
Dumb hick go home.
In this quote I was refering to the random prejudiced attacks from the right wing crazies.
Obviuosly you don't know what context means
BTW I found some Canada Lynx tracks up high in a roadless basin where you right wing crazies never go cuz you can't drive there.
Two can play the outlandishly prejudiced game.
Who is the one name calling.
The reason any animal has a trapping season is that the population is sustainable.
Maybe you should get your information from somewhere besides PETA.
Exactly what the left wing name callers are.Don't bother to get both sides of a story,only agree if it fits their agenda.
They focus on obviuos typos and rant on about wolves and an end to hunting and outsiders from the big city...blah blah
and never really respond to any facts or science becuase they don't beleive in science or facts and just in their own ideaology.
I see lynx tracks all the time.
you think anyone who wants trapping reform is some big city, animal rights actvist.
You dumb hicks just repeat the same bs
and yeah i'm calling you names becuase your an inbred prejudiced hick moron who eserves it.
PETA WTF r u talking about u right wing crazy joke.
Trapping of wolverines is not asustainable considering they're continually up for endangered species status.
Bottom line it's the lazy A$$ED few that set traps along PUBLIC trails that screw it up for the Trapper that Traps the 'right' way. (if there is one anymore). Just like the hunter that shoots from an ATV or a pick-up then bytches when they never see any game, so they blame the wolves. Get off your duffs and go where the 'tree-hugger', handkerchief wearing labrador w/jogger wearing berkenstocks(sp) doesn't go. Then there wouldn't need to be laws like this. BTW I'm not an 'import' to Montana, and I continue to live here because I love it. I've run Trap lines, but never where other people/dogs/domestic tread. They were checked daily and sometimes twice. If you are going to Drive a car shoot a gun, run a trap line, Educate yourself, and don't expect the 'other' guy to be looking out for you nor your weapon.
"I don't hunt in areas that can be driven to,too many idiots there.
I see lynx tracks all the time."
yet you hate wilderness and roadless lands...hypocritical moron.
Wow I also find Lynx quite often.
You don't even think the season on wolverines and other fur bearing weasels should be reformed.
That's becuase your a right wing extremist with hard grained prejudices that will never erode.
Have fun in your little hateful, blame the enviros for all problems world.
These folks that are against any change to the trapping season in MT are probally the same lazy trappers who ruin it.
Hill hick i'm betting your one of em.
"Wolves decimating the northern Yellowstone elk herd is a fact,and it is based on science."
Montana and Wyoming anti-wolf politicians are in full throttle roaring how wolves have "decimated1" elk in Yellowstone Park. They like to point to the northern range elk herd, which seems to have declined in size since 1993, especially if you present the figures in certain ways. They don't say much about other elk herds in Wyoming or Montana because the number is steady, they are less well known, or figures are not readily available.
It's time to review again some of the numbers.
The record high count of northern range elk was taken over a 4-day period in January 1994. 19,045 elk were counted. The estimated number was 19,359 elk. This was a high count, not the herd average. The previous winter the estimated number was 18,088 elk. The winter before that 15,587 elk, and in the official count taken Feb. 6, 1991, only 9,456 elk were counted, but the estimate was 10,287 elk. From these data it is evident that wide fluctuations in population were present.
A statistician will tell you that if random events are present any high peak figure or valley low figure is likely to decrease, if it's a peak, or increase if it's a valley, within a short time. This phenomenon is called "statistical regression toward the mean." This appears to have been underway before the wolves were introduced in March 1995. The elk count taken Dec. 21, 1994 was 16,791 actual elk counted and 17,290 estimated. See http://www.nps.gov/yell/nature/northernrange/appendixb.htm for these figures and many more.
Oh really hill hick
As with anything it is a few who screw it up for the rest.
I don't hunt from trucks,cars,or atv's,I don't believe in trying really long shots,I pack out more trash than I pack in.
You are calling me a right wing crazy,the truth is far from that.
I believe in a lot of the so-called environmentalist ideas.
I happen to like to hunt and fish,and yes,even trap.
I obey all laws,and would never set traps where dogs run around. What would be the point? No animals there.
I prefer to hunt/trap far from others.
My point is simple,ban trapping,then next comes hunting bans.
You are the idiot.
Where do you get that I hate wilderness,and roadless areas?
There is not enough wilderness that is off limits to road building,atvs,home building,and any development at all.
You left out the parts of the report that state the reduction in elk numbers is also due to an unnaturally high predation rate by wolves/grizzlies.
I was playing your game by making outlandish prejuices and assumptions about people, such as your opinion of the wilderness/roadless issue.
You don't even want any trap reform regarding Wolverines all 5 tags allowed, give me a break.
I was never for banning all trapping, but reform is obviuosly needed.
Actually I did'nt leave out any parts of the northern GYE elk herd story.
The facts are presented and once again you blubber away about some conspiracy to leave out the wolf/grilly kills and end all hunting and not to mention that global warming hoax by the big city politicians.
Later nutter.
Read it moron.
"I was playing your game by making outlandish prejuices and assumptions about people, such as your opinion of the wilderness/roadless issue."
And you knew my opinion how?
All you have to do is ban trapping within a thousand yards of a trail used by the general,non hunting public,and their dogs,and there would be no problem,but I-161 would ban trapping,period.
What about the rest of 161? the part about no longer requiring non residents to hunt with an outfitter?What do you think that will do? Many more people on the public lands,leaving a mess all over, this is not a good idea.It will not open up more lands to hunting,it will concentrate people in the areas open now.
How about this on wolf/elk numbers?
http://www.journalnet.com/news/local/article_639aacda-1232-11df-87ef-001cc4c03286.html
"There is not enough wilderness that is off limits to road building,atvs,home building,and any development at all."
That is opinion,as posted.
Trapping organizations obviuosly hold a lot of sway if you can actually still trap wolverines,fishers and martens in MT
That's because these animals are not in danger of becoming extinct. If the numbers get low enough,close the trapping season for THOSE ANIMALS ONLY,and only until the population recovers.
An outright ban on trapping is not needed.
"I was playing your game by making outlandish prejuices and assumptions about people, such as your opinion of the wilderness/roadless issue."
And you knew my opinion how?
Wow....your a dim bulb
I was making presumptions about your opinion on wilderness/roadless becuase that's what you do towards anyone who supports any kind of trapping reform.
Dang your stupid.
For he last time I never advocated an outright ban of trapping, stop repeating the same BS and putting words in my mouth.
How can the Wolverine be continually up for endangered status if it's not at risk of extinction. Pine Martens are growing rarer by the day and they are nearing extinction in places.
Yopu obviously don't jack shit about the woods or it's critters, and you caN REFENCE ALL THE WOLF nutter sites you want but your still rejecting science.
Your a stupid, inbred hick
you can't even understand when i'm imitating your actions.
Grow a brain you utter douchebag.
"I was playing your game by making outlandish prejuices and assumptions about people, such as your opinion of the wilderness/roadless issue."
And you knew my opinion how?
That's the point you idiot. I don't know your opinion and i'm making outlandish prejudices and asumptions like you right wing crazies love to do.
moron.
reduced to name calling,which I never did,how is a fish and game site a nutter site?You are an idiot those are the nutter sites that tell you wolverines are endangered.
I dont play stupid mind games as you do.
If I am rejecting science,then so are you,the info is from state sites,read all the articles,all the studies.If I am wrong then you are wrong about wolverines being endangered.
I never used a "nutter" site,never called names,you did that.
I have spent time outdoors all of my life.
You choose to only listen to what supports your view. 161 would ban ALL trapping.
Childish is how you act.
161 bans all trapping-that is what I keep referring to.
don't lie and say you don't call names
What is your point about wolves your allowed to hunt them
I refrenced a NPS site and study you referenced the Idaho statesman.
Only children can't understand imitation or a tatse of their own medicine.
You come on here and spew ridicualous prejudiced BS and i'm calling you out for the stupid, inbred retarded hick you are.
I'm just playing your naem calling game
you complete and utter moron.
see the wtf r u talking about with your outlandish prejudices. I don't even support 161 u idiot.
I know by educating myself and living and working in the woods.
I gave the rest of the wolf/elk issues from the MONTANA fwp.
Idaho was the study on wolf predation,in case you haven't noticed,Idaho borders Montana.
"The name calling starts from those on the "Left",who then say the "Right wing Crazies" have been brought by this proposed law."
That is my comment I did NOT say left wing crazies,got some issues about left wing?
read the above then tell me where you got your opinion of me,or my views.
I did not start by making outlandish prejudices. I commented on what had already been said,researched the issue some more,and stated my opinions,after doing my research on the issue.
161 was started by outside money.
And is backed by a lot of seasonal residents,and wealthy property owners. The trapping ban was the subject.
You doing a multi day solo trek has nothing to do with trapping,you only prove you are not one of the temporary,stay by the home residents.
As I said,when I hunt,I pack out more trash than I bring in.
I am not a right wing crazy,and I did not start calling names,unless you count my use of right wing crazy.
not only are you a liar, but you're obviuosly delusional.
"Just because they came from a city/state where there is no hunting/trapping,they think it should be like that everywhere.
People new to an area should learn,and respect the customs of the people who have lived there all of their lives.
The name calling starts from those on the "Left",who then say the "Right wing Crazies" have been brought by this proposed law.
Montana Fish and Wildlife has been doing an excellent job of managing the hunting/trapping resources,don't let a bunch of "Outsiders" with definite "Left Wing Crazy" views even come close to shutting down trapping.
Where do they get the 65% of land in Montana is private?
As usual,making the "Facts" fit the agenda.
I'm willing to bet that not one of these so called "outdoorspeople" could even survive a night or two lost in the wilderness areas they know so much about.They venture outside when it is nice,stay outside a few hours,then go back to their cozy million dollar plus homes."
These are outlandish prejudices and if you can't see that you utterly retarded.
oh yeah mtn hick your not prejudiced at all...lmao
yet you don't even beleive that. Your utterly delusional.
and a lot of the views expressed are far to the left. I did not call you,or anyone a left wing crazy,you called me a plethora of names,all derogatory.
65% of the land in Montana is private? no it's not.
"They venture outside when it is nice,stay outside a few hours,then go back to their cozy million dollar plus homes."
Is this true of a lot of supporters of 161? YES
If FWP was not doing a good job,then wolverines,pine martens,and fishers would all be extinct.
Of the people who support 161,the majority could not survive a few nights in the wilderness.
That is not prejudice,it is fact.
Have a nice life ,I will not respond to your name calling,and insults any longer.
Amazing the delusional justifications you create to justify your prejudice. I gurantee they're are supporters of 161 that know survival skills. Your a moronic lunatic dumbass hick who actually thinks his prejuisms are reality.
Seek help
BTW the wolverines and pine martens are'nt doing fine.
For the last time wolverines are continually up for endangered status, that's not fine.
Taking only five wolverines per season means they're not abundant and should'nt be trapped.
Actually process what i'm saying you belligerent fool or are that inept.
hypocritical, delusional lying right wing crazies have short memories.
That is not prejudice,it is fact."
wow your a delusional moron.
Name calling solves nothing.
I should never have said "left wing crazies"
A lot of what I said is true,despite Jay's claims that I'm a right wing crazy.
All that aside,what is wrong with making an ammendment to trapping laws that require the "Lazy assed trappers" to set traps 1,000 yards away from any public trail.
The season for wolverine and fisher is now closed see:
http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/trapping/fisherBobcatOtterWolverineStatus.html
I've never used a public trail as a trapline,too few animals.
I actually do agree with most of the "berkenstock" crowd's ideas,as I tried to state yesterday.
I was wrong to resort to name calling,I did it after I was called names. Not defending it,just pointing out what happened. In my original post,All I said was "Left wing crazy views"
This issue brings out emotional responses from BOTH sides,by MYSELF too.
I APOLOGIZE if I offended anyone.
As Ann said,and as I suggested a solution,why not make a compromise to make BOTH SIDES happy?
Again,what is wrong with making it so no traps can be set within 1,000 yards of a public trail,and keeping dogs on public trails either on a leash,or,if they run too far,and do get caught in a trap,it is the dog owners fault,not the trappers?
A thousand yards is over a half of a mile,if a dog is that far from it's owner,it is not under the owners control.
Jay's concerns about wolverine and fisher trapping have been addressed by FWP,who actually do know what they are doing.
So,how about an attempt by BOTH SIDES,to compromise???
It's awful hard to look in the eyes of an animal that has been mistakenly caught in any trap. Explain to the animal the Trap wasn't supposed to be there, or the owner wasn't keeping track of their pet.
Trappers already pay fees(Permits).
This is another ongoing argument in many states,the hunters/trappers/fishermen/women pay fees ,and the hikers and other users of public lands pay few,or no fees.
I have no problem paying an additional small fee,as long as other users pay a fee,and the money is not all spent on admin. costs.
Animals can be released from the type of traps currently allowed for trapping with little,or no harm.
That is why I sais people need to get CURRENT info on trapping/traps. Footloose is spreading some half-truths,and mis-information.
As someone else sais,some of the traps near trails may be school aged kids trying to earn some extra money,if so,then more trapper education is part of the solution.
Ann,thank you for rational replies.
I'm so tired of all the finger pointing the politics, the BS and the lack of accountability/responsibility people take/don't take, for their actions.
Name calling etc. should be left in the elementary school yard/outhouse wall.
Berkenstocks have a good valid point. Trappers have rights. Public Trailheads/rec areas are just that public. Respect by all and it's open to all. All the trappers I know and trapping I did, was done as far away from human activity as possible.
With luck,people will read the exchange we had,and agree to some compromise,and all will be able to enjoy the use of public lands.
Have a good day,thanks again for the intelligent conversation.
That is not prejudice,it is fact."
this is why your a right wing crazy you think this is a fact.
Mtn Hunter spews volatile names such as "Read it moron" and "left wing crazy" and then cries when given a tatse of his own medicine, and tries to act morally superior like he never said anything offensive or prejudcied.
Trapping reform is desperately needed in MT, 161 not necessarilly, but FWP need to strongly reconsider trapping seasons on threatened and endangered species such as wolverines and Lynx.
But Mtn Hunter will just say oh well I find lynx tracks all the time and that FWP are doing a great job by allowing five wolverines to still be trapped every year.
Look up the Trapping regs,at FWP,I posted the link.
Wolverine trapping,fisher trapping are CLOSED!
"Mtn Hunter spews volatile names such as "Read it moron" and "left wing crazy" and then cries when given a tatse of his own medicine, and tries to act morally superior like he never said anything offensive or prejudcied."
Go back and read ALL posts,who started with the inbred hick,ect? That was YOU!
I apologized for my comments,which is more than can be said for you.
FWP took care of the issues you had with trapping Wolverines and fishers.
It was "Left wing crazy views",and again I apologized for saying it.
Sorry for offending you,both of us were guilty of name calling.
Now,the important thing is what will be done?
Look at what I suggested,is that reasonable? If not,why not?
What do you suggest,that woukld make both sides happy?
I'll check back later,have some errands to run.
don't post judgmental prejudiced comments and you won't piss people off. I don't even support 161 but when you make claims that anyone who was'nt born in MT is a millionaire, that knows nothing of the wilderness it tends to get a rise out of people.
It's mind boggling that Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks still allows trapping for Wolverine and Fisher, both of which are presently being considered for listing as endangered. Add to that the fact that MFWP allows trapping in areas of Lynx habitat, a species that IS listed as a threatened species. How many Lynx die as a result of "incidental catch"? Nobody knows and I'm sure trappers aren't going to turn themselves in.
Maybe though this shouldn't come as a surprise since MFWP's "furbearer coordinator", Brian Giddings, is a long time trapper himself and regularly keeps the trapping organizations in Montana apprised of any threat to their sadistic hobby.
Where's that FWP link?
I've never heard of FWP ending wolverine and fisher trapping.
Go back and read ALL posts,who started with the inbred hick,ect? That was YOU!"
what do you think a taste of your own medicine is.
http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/trapping/fisherBobcatOtterWolverineStatus.html
Fisher closed/no season ALL districts
Bobcat closed/no season ALL districts
Otter closed in districts 1,2, and 4 Open in 3,5,6,7 with NO harvest in 6 or 7.
Wolverine closed/no season ALL districts.
http://fwpiis.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=32308
The above link gives instructions on how to release traps/animals caught in traps.
Marten is also a closed/no season.
As are lynx and swift fox.
There is also a section in the trapping regs that says...
Snares and groundsets may not be placed within 300 feet of a trailhead,or 1,000 feet for lethal snares and groundsets of a trailhead which is accessable by automobile. No snares or groundsets may be placed within 1,000 feet of a campground,or fishing access site. This is for all Fed. and State school trust lands.
There needs to be some trapping reform,not a whole lot,looking at current regs.
For the last time.. I said "left wing crazy views",and I said "read it moron" after you called me an inbred hick.
I see you only want to continue with name calling,and do absolutely nothing to address the concerns you have about trapping.
This is the second time I have given you the link to FWP,read the current regs,where any species is too low to be sustainable,the trapping season is closed,sometimes statewide,sometimes only in areas of concern.
I have shown that I am willing to discuss the issue rationally.
I even apologized directly to you.
So,If you want to continue the name calling,go right ahead,.
I will continue to try to educate those who want to ban all trapping about the TRUTH.
You say you are not opposed to all trapping,but that is not the outlook you project on this forum.
I gave you the info from our own state FWP.
Is that a "right wing crazy" or a "nutter" site?
I have given you the facts on current trapping regs,as posted by FWP,who do a much better job of managing wildlife than you give them credit for.
As for Mr. Giddings connection to trappers,that does give him experience in the field,and like it or not,politics play a part in managing our wildlife.
Would you complain if the director of the furbearer program wanted to close all trapping, because they had a connection to an animal rights group?
You can give it a rest with all of your outrage and angst. If you want to help the species you care about so much,you should try working with the other side,a lot more positive things would occur.
Have a good day.
By Jay of montana, 1-07-10
"This all stems from a Granola idiot that was walking her dog along some public ground trapline and her dog buddy stuck his head in a bucket of chicken bones and was strangled to death by a trap. I dont know where the figure that 65 percent of Montana is private land but that is rediculous. It seemas that if nature is ran by wolves that the cruelty is ok but when man does the predatory thing it is all bad. Liberal ideals will never hold muster in Montana thank God."
Do you just change your opinion to keep arguing?
When you say the 65% figure is wrong,you are correct,when I say it I am wrong?
Doesn't your calling the woman a "Granola Idiot" make YOU a "Right wing crazy"
Strangled to death by a trap? Sorry,traps do not strangle.
Liberal ideals will never hold muster in Montana?
I see you changed sides .
I did'nt continue names but your obviuosly all frothing at the mouth still.
Stop your prejudiced bigoted comments and you ownt recieve them in reply.
I agree.
"Stop your prejudiced bigoted comments and you ownt recieve them in reply." I stopped many posts back.
I made a comment about those who support 161 in general,which was partially based on information published in several newspapers.The rest from online info.
A lot of the support for 161 comes from exactly those I described,seasonal residents,those with million dollar homes,those NOT from Montana(Where my family has had land since the 1800's ).and those who moved from cities/suburbs in the east.
That IS FACT.
"I said left wing crazy views"
The only comment directed at you was "Read it moron" after you said FWP reports said NOTHING about wolf/grizzly predation,and after you called me an "Inbred hick" among the many other names and insults which you directed at/to me.
While banning all trapping may not be considered crazy by all,you can not say it is not a left wing view.
You can call me a right wing crazy all you want,if you actually read ALL of my posts,and read my solutions to the problem,you would find that my views are not that far right.
YOU still have made to reply as to a solution to the problem.
Post something intelligent,and I will reply,if you can't do that,I will not reply.
I see you still offer no apologies,even though you called far more names,and made far more insults.
At least I can admit it when I say something wrong,or offensive.
My apologies for confusing you with the other Jay.
I agree with your views,but people will have to work together to solve this issue.
As you can tell,I am opposed to the trapping ban and the rest of 161.
Maybe I'm just too teed off with all the new houses/people
moving here from out of state and wanting to change everything.
apologize Mtn. Hunter for my comments.
don't post judgmental prejudiced comments and you won't piss people off. I don't even support 161 but when you make claims that anyone who was'nt born in MT is a millionaire, that knows nothing of the wilderness it tends to get a rise out of people.
I was typing my other posts,and didn't see this one when it was posted.
I do apologize again,sorry.
I didn't mean everyone was millionaires,I meant that a lot of 161 supporters were. Which,as you know is true, and they are from elsewhere.
Both of us took some of what the other posted wrong.
So,what do you think is the best solution?
I am happy that you do know the wilderness,and spend actual time outdoors,in the backcountry.
I'm sure that if we had a real conversation,you would find that our views are a lot more similar than it seems.
My fault for the bad start,I was just so irritated that this all started because someone had their dog running loose,and it got caught in a trap.
I first read about this in the Mountain Trader,and the daily Inter Lake.Then,there was an article in Field& Stream,that had more bad things to say about 161.
Sorry for confusing you with the other Jay too.
What is the solution to this issue?
Those that have no idea what trapping involves are closed minded to thier view that we all just need to leave the bugs the birds and the beavers to natures balance. The wolves and coyotes will live as one with each other. If man would just quit in his existance all other things will be fine. We need to quit using gas, electricity, eat lettuce and tofu. Hug a bunny mentality is going to drive us all to the poor house.
Trapping is not any more inhumane than wolves killing elk by eating them alive. If I would have caught this flakes dog in my trap I would have clubbed it to death to speed the process then I would have hung it on the nearest fence post by driving a nail through its snout to make a statement. Stay away from my trapline! Compromise is this, if it makes it to a ballot, vote against it. I am betting it wont make the ballot these ecoterrorists are likely still out numbered.
a real live right wing nutter.
I know a lot about trapping and I know mahco morons like you give it a bad name.
apologies for the rocky start. You seem to be actually interested in others concerns and dont just labrel them as bunny hugging anti humans.
I think trapping reform is what's needed a case by case eval. of each species and sustainable solution should be reached. Certain species that truly are threatened or endangered should'nt be trapped or at least the # of tags reduced. We simply don't have the vast wildlands anymore to support the same level of trapping decades ago. As we push farthur into the wilderness and politicans like Tester attempt to destroy our roadless lands we near a future with reduced hunting and trapping opportunities.
Protect the habitat and protect the species and the sports will continue. MT has some of the longest, most libreral hunting seasons around becuase we actually have some good habitat left.
The true threats to hunting and trapping is the destrcution of our roadless wild lands in MT.
Have a good Sunday Mtn. Hunter
Jay of MT stop frothing at the mouth and spewing bigoted nonsense and maybe folks will somewhere with this issue.
your a homophobic, homosexual right wing idiot.
I don't even support 161, your an absolute belliegerent moron.
It's because of retards like you that people have a bad view of many trappers.
I don't have a clue?
Ha your a raving lunatic.
I still say compromise can go a long way to settle differences.
I thought I was making an attempt to get all involved to use logic,and rational discussion,seems to have worked with one of the Jays.
This is an emotionally charged issue.
Those who run traplines see it as an assault on our rights.
Those against trapping seek a total ban.
The answer is somewhere in the middle,those who have the extreme views,from right,or left,are what makes it hard to find a solution.
The public lands are just that public,to be used by all,if your dog is running free near a trapline,and it gets caught in a trap,that is your fault. But...the dog can be released,with little,or no harm,just go to FWP and they give instructions how to release animals from traps.(Dogs,not wild animals,that would get a person clawed and bit.)
Set traplines a thousand yards from a trailhead,or public trail,and keep your dogs under control. This problem then goes away.
1000 yards is a great 'boundary' it gives berkenstock dogs plenty of time to kick trees, before the owner puts them on heel/leash. With all the wild critters in the forests that the berkenstocks want to protect and have there, many are carnivores and love a good domestic 'whine' every now and then. So it only makes sense to keep track of your dog. But it also makes sense to get off the lazy behind and trap where the wild are more likely and the domestic less likely to be running loose. Ya know, share?
The thousand foot zone is already in the trapping regs.
I know I don't trap that close to where people with dogs are running around,no animals.
I hope that 161 never even gets close to becoming law.
Trappers have as much right to use the land as anyone else.
In my first post,I pointed out that hunters/trappers contribute more to wildlife management than any other group. I brought up the outsiders,and rich people with seasonal/million dollar homes who are a big part of the 161 crowd,and I got called names for it. Oh yeah,I said left wing crazy views too.
Point is all the arguing back and forth doesn't help.
Enforce the laws on the books,keep dogs under control,and there is no need for any of this.
The thousand foot rule is in the trapping regs. That is over 3 football fields away If a dog is that far from its owner,is it under the owners control?
The problem is the people on BOTH sides with extreme views.
Jay of Montana has a point about all the costs involved with lawsuits.
161 is a bad idea for both sides,if you read all the changes it proposes to make.
What's wrong with trappers trapping where it's not so public or what next they will be setting traps in the alleys of subdivisions, cities and towns, maybe the town park or high school foot ball field? sheesh Compromise, not either or.
Here the people near the city have protected whitetailed deer so much that there are far more than the habitat can suppport.
Now,the parks are bringing an out of state company to shoot deer at night,over bait.
The attempts to make a legal,safe bowhunting season in these areas faled,now hundreds of thousands are being spent to cut the deer population. Does this make any sense?
There are coyotes all over too,that is the next problem that will have to be taken care of.Too many anti-hunters can be a bad thing.
I was pointing out the extreme views issue,not saying you are/were wrong. I am the one who agrees that this can only be solved by both sides working together.
I'm sure a lot will disagree with a thousand yards,I trap,and I agree with it.
IN the cities/developments,no one should trap anywhere near a home,unless it is to remove problem animals.(with a live catch trap) No danger to pets that way.
I was just pointing out that even a thousand feet is a reasonable distance. I still say make it a thousand yards,then maybe the few lazy/unethical trappers would set a thousand feet from trailheads/trails.
I should have worded that a bit better,not my intent to get things all riled up again.
"What's wrong with trappers trapping where it's not so public"
Absolutely nothing,as areas become more residential,problems arise between the trappers,and those who don't like the concept of trapping,or have only been exposed to one side of the issue.
I think what will happen is that there will be areas that are mainly residential that are closed to trapping. That doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Banning all trapping is a bad thing.
As you said SHARE. Weren't we supposed to have learned that concept in kindergarten?
Again,not my intent to stir up trouble ,you and I seem to agree on this issue.
Sorry if I offended you,not my intent,as I said,I should have worded the post better,so you understood why I was pointing out what I did.
Personally It makes no difference to me because I keep track of my animals at all times(5 dogs and five horses), and don't have to worry about some trap. If I find a trap and it's in a 'populated-public-wilderness' area I will handle the situation the way I see fit at the time. As I do when someone just cuts their domestic loose in the country. I will handle the 'problem/situation', whether the owner is aware of it or not. living or inanimate.
I am just hoping that some common sense wins out in the case of I-161.
I don't think it is the right way to solve the problem.
Most of my friends have close to the views that I do on this.
Just make a reasonable compromise. When people make inflamatory statements,on either side,it just gives the opposite side more to use aginst the the opposition.(Does that make sense?)
Have a good day,I'll check back on this site for any comments either way later,got a Dr. appt.
Regarding Fishers.
Personally, there are more important things going on in my yard, and neighborhood (Horse Butte Peninsula), that requires all the attention I can give it when I have time. I would hope that maybe somebody could take some of both our thoughts and maybe incorporate them into some kind of compromise without having to take anything totally away from either side. Otherwise it looks to me the answer would be if one can't then they all can't. (again the way you have to treat children)
I support no trapping at public trail heads. On top of the 'big-sky' trail is a different story that would be more acceptable than say "Kirkwood" or the South Plateau Trail HEAD As to the total I-161. I have no opinion because I've not read it.
http://www.hcn.org/blogs/grange/listing-the-wolverine
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolverine/pressrelease04152010.pdf
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/fisher/pressrelease04152010.pdf
These are what is happening on the Fed. level.
Wolverines look like they may make it on the list.
The fisher has several populations that are strong,so I doubt they will make it on the list.Fishers are still trapped in the Appalaichian Mts.
http://www.wvdnr.gov/Wildlife/PDFFiles/mammalsbrochure.pdf
There are also Eastern populations of Wolverines.
Just pointing out why it takes a while for a species to get on the endangered list.
Remember,the gray wolf was endangered,it's population has recovered to the point where they can be hunted,and are causing ranchers problems by killing livestock.
I think that fishers,and wolverines will be okay,the populations will recover. Development is hurting the populations as much,or more than trapping.FWP saw the decline,and closed trapping,so that will help both to recover.
The trappers don't want the species to go extinct,or even become endangered,we want a healthy population.
Now,the wolf/elk/livestock issue looks like more lawsuits coming.
I say,keep the numbers low enough so there are less livestock,and fewer elk killed,but not so low that they become endangered. Compromise.
No trapping at public trailheads makes sense,why trap where there are more people moving around anyways?
If you find the time,check out all of 161,bad plan for both sides.
No one has made any reference to earth first or ending all human activity on the landscape. Your just repeating the same right wing crazy talking points you heard in the bar last night.
We're talking about trapping reform stop revertnig to your prejudiced nonsensical comments about some grand conspiracy to end hunting and trapping. You'll sound even more psychotic than you already do.
You might realize that if you could get your head out of you ASS!
The thousand feet from a trailhead is already in the regs.
I already agreed,and so do most others,that dogs should be on a leash,or under the owners control.
I trap.and I don't place sets near a trailhead,little chance of actually catching anything.
Most animals that are trapped like as little interaction with man as possible.
As more land gets developed,more people move into areas,a lot of those moving in have no experience with traps,or trapping. As I posted,it is not hard to release a dog from a trap. The problem is when people want to change things,it has an effect on others,who were probably using the areas before the new people moved in.
The answer is not a trapping ban. It is to educate those who do not trap,that trapping is going on,is legal,and to watch their animals in areas where trapping is going on.
You know as well as I do it is a waste of time to put sets at a trailhead. Besides,it is already in the regs that sets can not be placed within a thousand feet of a trailhead.Even a thousand yards is reasonable.
NO,the tree-huggers,earth first,whatever you call them,should not be allowed to impose a trapping ban,or a whole new set of laws. Enforce the laws on the books,and that solves half the problem.
Loss of animal habitat should be a major issue for both sides of this. So shopuld the rest of 161,which is bad for both sides.
They will say we impose our beliefs on them,we will say they are imposing their beliefs on us.They give a little,we give a little,161 goes away,and something that makes sense to both sides happens.
If we all stop arguing with each other,maybe we can find a solution that works for both sides?
Better than having something happen that is a loss for both sides.
I ceased from calling other's names, but apparently Jay of MT can make his point without calling others "psychotic worm firstsers" who want to end all hunting and trapping and kick humans off the land.
Where did you get the idea I was female and for the last time open up that ignorant little brain and accept the fatc that I don't even support 161.
"Lace panties"
wow your a creepy perv.
Facebook WTF ru blubbering about you absolute right wing nut case.
BTW federal land can exist and still be poor habitat, aparently you don't understand the difference.
No one is living on federal land"
here we go with another off topic delve into rthe grand right wing conspiracy involving humans being removed form the landscape.
Your absolutely nuts Jay of MT
A bigoted nut job.