Column: Making it in Missoula

Men and the Lack-of-Communication Theory

For me I generally don't ask my friends about their relationships with women. If they start the conversation and are looking for someone to listen, I listen. If they ask for a reaction or opinion or look they they want or need it I'll usually give one but I dont try to back them up and learn everything about the relationship unless they are falling apart and really need serious help, just answer the specific on the table and move on. Now maybe my half dozen best friends I'll be more aware of their relationship if it is serious and I interact with them as a couple a lot but I still won't bring it up, I'll let them if they feel a need beyond the occasional brief day to day observations which isnt often. If they bring up their relationship I might talk some about mine to explain my perspective but I dont often share details or ask opinions on mine. I consider it private.
I typically expect anything I say about relationships to stop with that person but allow some slippage to girlfriends, because you cant totally stop it. If that slippage to girlfriends slips to other people or my girlfriend and is really private stuff, I'll probably be even more guarded about talking to that friend in the future. I just dont like gossip and dont get much out of hearing it either with a few exceptions.

Seems like a lot of women share very liberally. I guess if they want to they will. On their own feelings that's fine, about their guy to their closest friends thats understandable. But When they talk about their guy with their 18th best friend, or hairdresser, or random coworker that seems too casual to me.

Dude B's memory is probably just fine. You're just not memorable.

OUCH ! ha ha

I just love to see these men communicating! I think that you've inspired them, Lil Sis.

Did you really want paddler B or just more attention from him?
Sell your interest stronger if you do and regardless get over that he didnt follow thru and chase you. Sounds like he found a date. He doesnt owe really owe you anything. Also sounds like being cool to a woman can get to them. Being eager and available seems to get shot down a lot so I can't blame the guy for not pursuing every gal or showing as much interest as she wants or expects. If women can be selective, so can men if they feel like it.

Sounds like your friend got the attention because she went to high school with him. What did she think of him after going out? Keeper or dud?

The bar scene is the crucible of narcissistic culture. Expecting anything more from this environment stands reality on its head.

Other crucibles of narcissistic culture:

Many corporate boardrooms, libertarian organizations

I got a real kick out of this column! I totally agree that most men don't talk as much as women do, which can be a great thing if they're not telling your secrets. It's so much fun to talk with women friends, though. I guess we should be a little more careful with the secrets, maybe, so the poor guys can trust us. (By the way, I don't know how you can handle some of these comments. You're just being funny and some people trash you. I for sure couldn't deal with it--you're brave.)

Thanks everyone, for your insight. We really appreciate a response, so we can bring a more enlightened approach in the coming weeks.
Roger- I didn't write that I was interested in Paddler B, and hopefully a more dubious tone toward him came out in the column. I'm much more interested in his obliviousness as a discussion piece.
Julie- they're no longer dating, and I think she's a little dubious as well. . .
Bill Hall- Obviously you've never met me.

I think Steve B. pretty much summarized it for me.

One of the things about sharing is that it can be all one sided. I have seen some of my friends unfairly smeared among women who were sharing because the men were unable to share their side of things to the women. Relationships can be messy but very rarely is one person the sole bad actor. We all contribute to some of the problems. That's what happens when you try to blend two people's desires, dreams, aspirations, fears, flaws, etc. Nobody is perfect.

Since sharing is something that is done on such a personal level, I wonder if it is scrutinized for fairness? Or, is it a shortcut way to lable someone and tag them with a reputation ("don't date that guy because he did/said/feels [fill in the blank]")?

You owe me a beer.

Sweet Jesus this is vapid. Women really are as goofy as men, who knew?? (Until now.)

It is an experiment. I agree probably need a juicier case than this one.

I also agree with Taylor the real learning about relationships comes when you know both sides. Sometimes you hear it from both when you are friends with both but a lot of the times you just hear one and it is good to remember that is one sided and not take it as the full story.

I think guys tend to talk less in part because they can't avoid realizing they had shortcomings, made mistakes because they certainly do quite often. They may not want to talk it but I think most guys realize it is true and dont really want to share that image of failure with other guys. Why would they?

I wonder how often women confront their shortcomings, mistakes in relationships with friends. It is mostly about getting sympathy for not being treated great or is it also about doing better? Giving advice about doing better is a delicate thing for any friends, some get it, some are helped by it, but mostly I think we end up on our own, repeating mistakes until we learn the lesson ourselves. More, franker talk could help but there is a risk and unless a friend commits to receiving advice and holding you harmless (and you believe them) most are somewhat reluctant to say as much as they might.

To break new ground it might be interesting if any of the guys in these stories were given the opportunity and were willing to share their perspective too but the odds of that might not be high and cover could be blown.

I don't think this is vapid but look forward to variety and maybe more talk about solving problems, paradoxes not just laying them out there.

A friend of mine when asked, "Well, did you score?" Would simply reply,"A gentleman nevers speaks of these things." Translation, yes and enough said.
I feel, from a mans point of view, that is is indeed enough said.
I went to college here in the 70's and was not the charming confident player I would have liked to be. Even so the opportunities were frequent enough to learn something about interpersonal relationships between men and women. Now Im an old guy, passionatly in love with my wife and happy with my life experience as it stands so far. I love sitting in Missoula downtown establishment watching young men and women stumbling through the learning process. Im happy to watch and feel no need for further participation. Been there.

Steve B.- that's a pretty wise take on things. None of us want to admit our shortcomings, much less have them pointed out. I think looking for comfort and reassurance are the more likely reasons I turn to my friends, and maybe the good ones will gently let me know what I did wrong. But that's a tough part of communication as well.
Rick - thanks for letting us know there's a happy ending somewhere. I'm glad that you're happy, in love, and done with your stumbling.

If a guy does something real well or enjoys a really nice relationship experience he might brag about it and be allowed to among friends as long as he doesn't do it too often and admits to be dumb sometimes too. If he gets dumped he can usually get a certain mimumum amount of sympathy and beer but if he mopes around too long guys with find other stuff to do.

Sometimes you stumble into chat about relationships about third parties who aren't present and that can be the easiest time for folks to say what they really think and not be afraid to disagree. I guess you can learn some that way. Talking about other relationships with your girlfriend or wife is tricky though. What you say can be viewed as much about you as it is about the other relationship. Got to me careful to not say more you really mean and mean to say.