Diary Of A Mad Voter: Jon Schwedler

Holy Crap, I (Heart) Huckabee!

Comment By Daniel, 12-07-07

LOL as a Huckabee supporter. I appreciate this article. Although I disagree with some things. For example he says Huckabee believes the earth is 4,000 years old, although Huckabee has not said exactly how old he thinks the earth is- and yes it is possible for him to believe it to be millions and be a Christian: go to reasons.org for evidence of that.

But overall, i liked the article. It is a great perspective from a non-republican and I really think he sums up much of the reason that both Republicans and Ind/Dems are liking Huckabeee

Comment By Tina, 12-07-07

Your article had me chuckling. It's hard to explain Huck-a-mania. You did as good a job as any.

Comment By Bobra, 12-07-07

Please Jon and all others who are under the false impression that Huckabee believes the world to be 6000 yrs. old (or as you said, 4000 yrs.), do go to reasons.org and take a look. In addition I recall a television interview in which Huckabee mentioned having read and enjoyed "The Language of God" by Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project and a Christian. That does not sound like a man who believes in a young earth. But why get into his exact view on the matter - it would be irrelevant to his job as president, as you apparently realize.

Comment By Tanner, 12-07-07

Wow! You really should consider just doing what I do... just pretend that there are no political parties. In Arizona, as an Independent, it's really easy for me to do that. In the primary, I can select which party ticket I want to vote on. Plus I don't get caught up in all this conservative/liberal BS, I can just concentrate on issues as they are. FairTax is something that's important to me, so I'll vote for a candidate that supports that... Huckabee!

Comment By Jon Schwedler, 12-07-07

Hello all and thanks for your comments. I may be wrong (and I wish I am wrong) about Huckabee believing the world is 4,000 years old.

The truth is none of us were there when it "started" so we're all taking shots at a dartboard.

That said, I believe it is a relevant topic because it is a factual matter of science, not religion. It would bother me if Huckabee was relying on his faith to interpret exhaustively-studied science. I've had about enough of that from the current clown-in-chief.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-07-07

Huck-a-mania is breaking out in Iowa. Looks like he is the new Huck Hogan in the political ring.

Comment By Robet, 12-07-07

CORRECTION OF ERRORS:

1) Huckabee never said that he does not believe in evolution. Only that he does not believe in evolution exclusively without God starting or or shaping the process.

2) Huckabee never said the earth is 4,000 years old, he said that he does not know.

Comment By flounder, 12-07-07

I am a scientist that has dealt with the dating of rocks and the Uranium-Lead dating that has been used to determine that age of the Earth to around 4.65 billion years old works on the same nuclear principles that allow us to generate power and make nuclear weapons.
Now if Huckabee says "he does not know" how old the Earth is, he is literally denying that we have nuclear power plants or nuclear weapons. Tell that to the people of Hiroshima.
No, the guy simply panders to the most ignorant segment of the population. It is sorta his thing.
Look at the way he pressured the parole board to let that rapist and murderer go. The sane and informed people urged the parole board not to let the guy out. A bunch of Arkansas Rush Limbaugh-wanna be's had a conspiracy theory that Clinton was running around castrating people. Huckabee had a choice to believe the sane people or the Clinton-deranged people. In the end he sided with the crazies and ended up sending a love letter to a killer.
His history of choosing ignorance over reason should give you pause.
P.S. read some discussion of his "flat-tax" proposal that is written by an economist that doesn't have ties to the Heritage Foundation for more evidence he is still siding with the crazies. Here is one written by conservative economist Bruce Bartlett-

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110010523

his summary is that polling shows people support a flat tax when the number is less than 23%, but to keep the tax revenue neutral you would need 34%. Guess what magic number Huckabee throws out for his flat-tax proposal?

Comment By Beau, 12-08-07

Well since you're a geologist, then maybe you can explain this... Organic material (dead plants and animals) only make up less than 1% of the Earth's crust. Yet this organic material expands at an average rate of around 0.2 inches a year. Traditional theory says that plants and animals have been on the Earth for about 3 billion years... so, if you take the growth and multiply it by 3 billion... you'll conclude that the Earth's crust should actually be almost 9500 miles thick and over 99% organic material, when it is actually only 25 miles thick and less than 1% organic material.

Comment By Sharon Fisher, 12-08-07

Here's what concerns me about Huckabee:

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=282516

Comment By Marion, 12-08-07

I have been a Huckabee fan since the first time I heard him debate. I am not at all concerned about his reluctance to date the earth, the Bible says a year is as a thousand years to the Lord and a thousand years is as a day.
All of the computer estimates of dating the earth is pretty much a SWAG, when you talk about "around 4.65 billion years". Remember the information spewed out by a computer is based on information (still SWAG) fed in.
I like his Fair Tax, but most politicians and lobbyists will hate it.

Comment By Inky, 12-08-07

Before folks get carried away with his aw-shucks folksy charm, please do some homework, like looking at his press relations back home. There, you'll find the Wayne Dumond saga, wherein Huckabee got a rapist released, only to rape and murder. See the 12/8 edition of the LA Times or http://www.huffingtonpost.com/politics.
Here's a short Huckabee history:
Huckabee Defended Ethics Commission's 14 Complaints, Five Resulted in Violations. The Ethics Commission addressed 14 complaints against Mike Huckabee during his political career. Five resulted in findings that he violated ethics guidelines. [Associated Press, 11/23/06]

Huckabee Depletes Emergency Fund, Destructs Government Property as He Leaves Office. "Former Gov. Mike Huckabee depleted the governor's office emergency fund in the final weeks of his administration in part to pay for the destruction of computer hard drives in his office. That left Gov. Mike Beebe, who replaced Huckabee on Jan. 9, with no emergency funds for the last half of fiscal 2007. Documents that the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, describe the destruction of the computer drives, as ordered by Huckabee's office, and Huckabee complaining strongly about his cell phone and Blackberry not working" [Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, 1/19/07]

Huckabee Defended Tax Hikes. Governor Huckabee had to rebut criticisms from "fiscally responsible" Republican groups such as the Cato Institute and the Club for Growth, that during his tenure as Governor he raised taxes. On the defensive, Huckabee acknowledged that any tax increases were for important public purposes, and that he cut other taxes. [New York Times, 1/29/07]

Huckabee Defended Parole of Convicted Rapist Who Later Committed Murder. Governor Huckabee found himself defending the "parole, during Huckabee's governorship, of convicted rapist Wayne Dumond, who later committed a murder in Missouri. Huckabee said he regretted Dumond's actions but denied playing a proactive role in the release decision by Arkansas' parole board, and claimed that most of the board's members had been appointed by his predecessors." [New York Times, 1/29/07]

Comment By flounder, 12-08-07

That whole organic material question is hilarious. I wouldn't even know where to start shooting down the assumptions that are dead wrong. We are made up of the same carbon that was here when the Earth was formed. It gets recycled. Your house is made of a lot of organic material, how much bigger is it now than when you first bought it?
Did you hear the one about Huckabee wanting to ship everyone with AIDS to a deserted island?

Comment By Beau, 12-08-07

I wasn't talking about carbon, I was talking about dirt/dust/soil. Yes, eventually my house will collapse, decay away, and become dust... thus adding another couple of inches of dust to the Earth, or at least onto the spot on which it sits.

Comment By Sharon Fisher, 12-09-07

The destruction of government property story is the one I referenced up above. That type of history scares me a lot.

Comment By Marion, 12-09-07

I think folks are fed up to the teeth with career politicians tied to political big shots and tied top special interest groups. It is refreshing to finally see someone who actually believes in something.
As for isolating AIDS patients, we'd have a lot less getting infected every day (or night) if they were isolated. At the very least we need to do away with the secrecy and do mandatory testing with any other STD infection, plus make it a reportable disease.

Comment By flounder, 12-09-07

The entire point of my post was that Huckabee is tied to special interest groups.
He has tied himself to a "Flat Earth Society" that denies nuclear physics so they can cling to their anti-evolution/5,000 year-old Earth mythology.
He also ignored his professional advice and tied himself to a bunch of third-rate conspiracy theorists who thought that Clinton personally castrated some guy because a distant cousin got raped.
He also tied himself to some pro-concentration camp interest group that wanted to send Magic Johnson to a desert island. Maybe in Huckabee's Bible Jesus didn't befriend the lepers but helped to put them behind some barbed wire.
All the crazies that Huckabee is trying to kiss up to make trial lawyers or the oil and gas industry look downright regular.

Comment By Sam, 12-09-07

Stop making crap up... you offer no proof for these allegations, you can't even offer proof that the Earth IS billions of years old - yet you claim to be a geologist. Shut up and go look for your "missing link".

Comment By flounder, 12-09-07

Beau, have you ever heard of erosion?

Comment By Beau, 12-09-07

Yes, in fact, that 0.2" a year figure does account for the soil that has eroded into the ocean. But even so - the Earth's crust below the oceans is even thinner (about 5 miles thin), if all these miles of soil have eroded its way into the ocean, then why isn't the oceans filled with that soil? Also, the ocean contains a lot of plant and animal life as well, that life also dies and decays becomming soil... continuing to add layers of soil to the ocean bottoms. Everywhere on Earth this is happening, life grows then it dies and decays - becoming soil/dust... making the Earth just a little bit thicker. If life on Earth has truly been abundant for 3 billion years as secular scientists have predicted, I think the Earth's crust would be MUCH deeper below land and sea.

Comment By sweed7, 12-10-07

We will find out more about Huckabee when the Iowa stuff is over and we come to a larger forum! He could be great OR he could be a BIG BUST. We will see! He had the right idea about AIDS. Not to many years ago there were many diseases that were quarantined. After all, the end game of AIDS is still pretty bad.

Comment By sweed7, 12-10-07

Huckabee is the current darling of the main stream media. Once he rises they will go on the attack and bring out any bad stuff! Can't build any politician too high especially a republican.

Comment By peter webster, 12-10-07

Against abortion. Believes thatt AIDS paients should be isolated from the population (as in concenration camps?). Against gay marriage. Abstinence-only sex ed. As a So. Baptist, the Bible is the inerrant word of god, right? As a So. Baptist, women should be subordinate to men, right? Only the "saved" go to heaven?

Give me a goddam break: this is not a theocracy, so we do not need any, repeat, any mullahs in political office. Even if they are personality whiz-kids.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-10-07

Sniping at Huckabee over his beliefs doesn't really sell other candidates like Clinton or Obama, expressed Christian believers who claim to have a God guided life, does it?

Comment By peter webster, 12-10-07

I'm perfectly willing to snipe at them, too, Craig. Huckabee's religion can get in the way of his official duties, particularly since he makes such a big thing about those beliefs. I'm annoyed at he whole religious tests attitude the right wing has brought to poliics, too. Remember when there were elections when nobody was trying to be more sancimonious than the next crook?

Comment By Monte, 12-10-07

Riiiight, you think we should make the Presidency a secular position?... because it's worked so well in our schools. Since the time we've taken God out of our school systems, kids have been dropping out a record pace and we have a plague of kids randomly killing people.

Little do you guys recall that our forefathers we quite religious themselves, I don't see you complaining about them. They built a government system that was to be tolerant of all religious beliefs - yet people like yourselves aren't tolerant or any.

Comment By jedediah, 12-10-07

Sounds like Flounder has run head-long into a creationist.
Imagine a president who would subscribe to Intelligent Design--I mean another president--after Bush has left office...

Comment By Marion, 12-10-07

Well peter, I don't know how or why he has risen so fast with little money and little organization, but he is obviously striking a cord somewhere....lots of them in fact.
I have done ultrasounds and watched a baby's heart beating at 9 or 10 weeks, so of course I do not believe in abortion. AIDS should at a minimum be a reportable disease and tracked, including all sex partners. I don't know that I would isolate them, on the other hand they show no responsibility themselves for trying to control the spread of the disease do they?
I think we can see that secularism is failing miserably as Monte and Craig pointed out.

Comment By flounder, 12-10-07

I can offer proof that the Earth is billions of years old. I didn't. This isn't the place for it, but if you want a good layman's book that explains it all, and the series of baby steps that built our knowledge, read "The Age of the Earth" by G. Brent Dalrymple.
P.S. Have you ever heard of plate tectonics? The oldest ocean crust is around 200 million years old. It gets recycled at plate boundaries. Anything that piles up on it is recycled too or piled up at the subduction zone. Now are you going to be a REAL creationist and deny that plate tectonics exist?
P.P.S. If you are out here in the west, go look at the Madison Limestone sometime. It is composed of dead ocean critters that lived in an inland sea.

Comment By Jon, 12-10-07

Ok, I can say I really appreciate all of the comments that have posted to date. But I have to ask Monte, do you believe that a higher high school drop out rate is directly related to the removal of "God" from the education system?

I mean, can you cite research stating there are a) higher drop-out rates nationally, b) lower "God" in the schools, and c) the founding fathers were any more "religious" than people today?

Comment By Beau, 12-10-07

I do not deny the existence of tectonic plates or uranium... I simply doubt the accuracy of typical age-testing methods.

Comment By peter webster, 12-10-07

So, back to stuff like believing the bible is the inerrant word of god, the question of the religiosity of our "founding fathers" (like Tom Paine? Jefferson? Adams?—even Hamilton, in some of the darkest days of the revolution didn't call for god's help, but for civil-secular aid.

Somewhere along the line, a lot of people have been fed a lot of propaganda, if not downright lies, about the religious beliefs of the people who wrote the Constitution. They were secularists, not evangelicals, for pity's sake! They had seen what the concept of devine right of rulers did to countries and wanted none of that...Now, of course, various "men of god" tell us that Washington and Jefferson and Franklin, among others, were very religious and wanted to make sure America was a Christian country. That's not true.

There's no evidence that not having god in schools leads to higher drop-out rates—nor to increased pregnancies nor greater drug use not even to more parking in no parking zones. It is, though, an interesting theme that many vocal upholders of religious and "family" values turn out to be sexual creeps...

Comment By Chad Guestero, 12-11-07

What makes you think that Huckabee would act any differently (calling for civil-secular aid)? He himself said that he'd rather associate himself with atheists that are convicted in their faith than christians who are not.

Comment By Worried, 12-11-07

Beyond the debate over how old the planet is or is not, what is most worrisome to many of us who are not evangelical Christian, Mormon, or even religious is the increasing role of religion in government. Romney's speech condemning "secularism" frightened the crap out of me. The increasing role of evangelical Christianity over the past seven years and its dictating of both foreign and domestic policy is highly troubling, and I am not sure that we can continued to promote such narrow views on science, morality, and religion. Maybe Huckabee has a balanced view on morality and the government's role in dictating it, but I am not sure that I can trust any politician using the religious card.

Comment By Inky, 12-11-07

In August of 1998, Huckabee was one of 131 signatories to a full page USA Today Ad which declared: “I affirm the statement on the family issued by the 1998 Southern Baptist Convention.” What was in the family statement from the SBC? “A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ.”
How ya like them apples?

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-11-07

Inky, thank you for the Daliy KOS smear moment of the day. Did you see their link to the article. Here it is: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=2510

Read the whole article and the WHOLE ad in context. Part of the ad did say:

>>>>>>
The evangelical leaders' USA Today ad states to the Southern Baptist Convention:
"You are right because you recognized that the family was God's idea, not man's, and that marriage is a covenant between one man and one woman for a lifetime.
"You are right because you called husbands to sacrificially love and lead their wives.
"You are right because you called wives to graciously submit to their husband's sacrificial leadership.
"You are right because you affirmed that the husband and wife are of equal worth before God.
"You are right because you reminded us that children are a blessing and heritage from the Lord.
"More importantly, you are right because your statement is based on biblical truth."
<<<<<<<

Did you notice the part of the ad which says husbands and wives are equal before God and children are a blessing? By the way don't you think that families need some sort of relational glue to bind them together to whether storms, and lead honest, fruitful, and loving lives which provide the examples for the next generation? Given the rising out of wedlock birth rate and the crime statistics that reaffirm the tragedy stemming from single parent homes, it seems to me all candidates should address the important family societal issue in some meaningful fashion.

Comment By sweed7, 12-11-07

A vote for a truly religious person is not a vote for religion. It is a vote for a person who embaces the values embraced by all of the world's religions except radical Muslim. This country was not founded on the christian religion BUT it was founded of Judo Christian VALUES! A vote for a phony religious person is a vote for the worst of both religious and athiest. To the non-thinker, the Southern religious vote has been successfully branded as a vote for religion. Those good people are not voting for a religion but for the principals embraced by truly religious people. The fact that founders like Jefferson were not particularly religious is strong evidence that they embraced the principles involved even though they might not have embraced the religion. NO one can doubt that the religious principles are prominent in all early government documents facilities.

Comment By Inky, 12-11-07

Relational glue doesn't necessarily come from edicts from on high -- they can come from one-on-one commitment, like I've had with my wife and best friend of 33 years.
There's more on Huck, this from perrperspectives.com:
Here then, are the Top 10 Moments in Mike Huckabee's extremism:

Huckabee Calls for the Quarantine of AIDS Victims
Huckabee Enables the Politically-Motivated Parole of Repeat Rapist/Murderer
Huckabee Offers Faith-Based Pardons
Huckabee Undermines the Teaching of Evolution
Huckabee Speaks for God
Huckabee Speaks to God
Huckabee Claims God Behind His Rise in the Polls
Huckabee Proclaims His Theology Degree a Unique Qualification to Fight Terrorism
Huckabee Flip-Flops, Calls for Federal Abortion Ban
Huckabee Calls for Consumption Tax, Abolition of the IRS
Sounds like the ideal conservative candidate.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-11-07

Inky, Senator Clinton has professed how her Christian beliefs are important in her life. See: http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/117043.aspx

>>>>>>>>
Hillary Clinton's Christian Faith
By David Brody
CBN News
March 9, 2007


CBNNews.com - Senator Hillary Clinton said in an 1994 interview that she believes in the "atoning death of Jesus Christ."

CBN News has discovered a number of past statements that Clinton has made about her Christian faith. In 1994, she was asked by Newsweek magazine, "Do you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? She answered, "Yes." She was then asked whether she believed in "the atoning death of Jesus?" Once again her answer was, "Yes."

Senator Clinton is a lifelong Methodist who has always said she takes her faith very seriously.
<<<<<<<<<<

Inky, I can understand your partisan sniping. I just can't take it seriously when you will be stuck with a religiously guided Hillary as your party champion.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-11-07

Inky, if it's not Hillary it will be Obama. I feel your pain. See: http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/obamawatch/2007/10/obama-reaches-o.html

>>>>>>>>

Obama said he seeks to be an "instrument of God" and expressed confidence "we can create a kingdom right here on Earth."

<<<<<<<<<<

Comment By Worried, 12-11-07

I have no problem with the submission verse of the bible. If you read it all it actually states that we all need to submit to each other, something that was in my marriage vows not too long ago. My concern is the narrow defining of morality etc. by the religious right. And while the constitution does have its roots in Judo Christian thought, it is in the form of the Enlightenment. We must remember that not only was Jefferson not all that religious, but that the founders had just fought a war over freedom against tyranny. One element of which had been religious tyranny. So yes, I not only doubt that the religious principles are prominent in all early government documents facilities, I know it is not true.

Comment By Inky, 12-11-07

In the wake of Romney's speech about religion, I wish more people would pay attention to JFK's speech about religion, in which he specifically said there should be no religious test for office -- following the Constitution itself.
I'm not real thrilled with any politician pandering to religious audiences. What's more impressive is sheer competence, vision and intellect, which have been sadly lacking these past seven years of neo-conservatist kleptocracy verging toward Dominionist theocracy.
A theocracy of any sort would create hell, not heaven on earth. Just dig a bit and read about the Inquisition, or in more modern days, the Taliban rule in Afghanistan or the ugly Protestant rule in North Ireland.

Comment By sweed7, 12-11-07

Like Peter the Great in Russia, the founders were victims of the church taking over government and that is why the separation of church and state. There will never be a religion strong enough to to take over government in the USA. The churches of the various faith cannot agree on anything religious. The do agree on the values consistent within all churches. Things like the family, forgiveness and ten commandments. The virtues of religion are the virtues of the country. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE RELIGIOUS TO HAVE THOSE VIRTUES BUT TRULY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE HAVE THEM. If you have those values you truly want your leader to have them. Thus the religious vote. NOT a vote for one of dozens of religions but a vote for values. The anti-god propaganda is well orchestrated and politically motivated by various groups who do not want to live by those values.

Comment By Jon, 12-11-07

I'd have to take serious issue with sweed7's post, on several counts.

Assuming that "truly religious" people have the above-mentioned virtues (which I'm not willing to concede-- I'm sure Osama Bin Ladin considers himself "truly religious"), how do you separate the "truly religious" people from those who only pretend to be "truly religious" to suck in support (ie, Karl Rove, Rudy Giuliani, Hillary Clinton)?

That is why I'm not a fan of candidates talking about their "faith." A) It's irrelevant, and B) they often lie. It amounts to an insult to those who don't wear their religion on their sleeves (or collars, or heads, etc).

By the way, I'm not sure that Bhuddists consider the 10 Commandments a guiding document. And I'm pretty sure the Dalai Lama considers himself a pretty religious dude.

Comment By Zac, 12-11-07

While true, those values may not be consistent from religion to religion, a lot of those value ARE common with the primary religion(s) in the USA... who happen to usually have a large voter turn-out.

Back to what Inky said, it is virtually impossible for our country to become a Theocracy. Primarily because the President is held accountable on a couple levels... first congress, then the American people (if he/she does something horrible, he/she will be voted out). The only way I can foresee something like that happening is if the majority of voters actually wanted the country run like a Theocracy and they voted both a President and Congress that represented that.

Comment By sweed7, 12-11-07

Jon, Please read above. I specifically excluded the Muslim religion. There are also a few other cult like groups that claim to be religious. The exception proves the rule.

Comment By Jon, 12-12-07

Are you pulling my leg? Muslims can't have virtue? Christians are inherently virtuous but non-Christians are not? Does that non-virtuous list include Coptic Christians? Mormons? Catholics? Gay senatorial Bible-thumpers in Idaho? David Kouresh?

I think we're running into exactly why many folks have a problem with religion and politics mixing.

While we may never reach a "theocracy" state, we certainly have leaders who cite religious reasons as justification for policy-- from Israel and Iraq to abortion.

I'm sorry, but telling the electorate "because God told me so" just isn't sound policy, and it didn't work on the Founding Fathers either.

Comment By Marion, 12-12-07

Religion encompasses an awful lot. The environmental movement is a "new age religion" in every sense. And they are determined that we are all going to worship at their altar.
I doubt that there is a single politican anywhere that will meet everyone's expectations. Honesty and Christian beliefs are important to me. There has been too much surface faith that translates into a self worship among our politicians. I think the Amercian people are getting sick of it, watching approval numbers for congress tumble and the rise of a minister to as much prominence as Huckabee has, is evidence of that.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-12-07

Inky, in my opinion you continue to cast stones from a glass house occupied by religiously guided Hillary and Obama. Pointing fingers at the R's while falling silent about D's like Obama that want to build God's kingdom on Earth seems like it undermines your protestations and politically motivated sniping.

Comment By Chris La Tray, 12-12-07

"The environmental movement is a "new age religion" in every sense. And they are determined that we are all going to worship at their altar."

Damn it, Marion, you are on to us. Oh well, we will have you dancing naked on top of the Stonehenge replica out in Goldendale, WA, before you know it! If you happen to have a spare athame around the barn, bring that with you too, would you, please?

As for me, Clinton's religious-bent makes me as nervous as Huckabee's, but I feel pretty hopeful that when the dust settles neither one of them will be standing. I'm not too thrilled with this election's menu, period. If it were a restaurant, I think I'd drive across town to find something else.

Comment By sweed7, 12-12-07

I can keep this blog going forever. Here goes: Who we need is Jeb Bush!

Comment By Inky, 12-12-07

Craig is assuming a great deal, on very little evidence. I'm no supporter of Clinton or Obama, though I'd hold my nose and vote for them over the likes of the moon-bats in the GOP fold -- the lesser of evils argument.
I don't think Clinton or Obama or any of the Democratic candidates would strive toward theocracy. On the GOP side, Rudy is simply interested in power, Mitt will flip-flop on anything to get votes, Fred is asleep at the wheel, Duncan and Tom want fascism with a GOP corporate aristocracy in charge, Hucky wants a theocracy and Ron has this glimmer of sanity (get out of Iraq) amid all sorts of black helicopter moon-batteryness.
Whew!
I agree with Chris -- this menu is problematic at best. Is this the best we can come up with?
And Zac: check out Naomi Wolf's new book about the 10 steps towards fascism. We're almost there, wrapped in the American flag and carrying a Bible. There's been lots of variations on the dictatorship theme -- we could easily have one in the Christian Dominionist theocracy flavor of the week.

Comment By sweed7, 12-12-07

One last remark: Jon, I give up on you! You cannot distinguish between the various religions and individual people. Of course some Muslims can have virtues. Some so called christians don't and I do not exclude any truly religious member of any religion. Most religious groups differ on their approach to god not to ethics.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-12-07

Inky, please explain why you give Obama a "pass" on his position while excoriating ONLY R's.

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/obamawatch/2007/10/obama-reaches-o.html

>>>>>>>>
Obama said he seeks to be an "instrument of God" and expressed confidence "we can create a kingdom right here on Earth."
<<<<<<<<<<

Comment By Worried, 12-12-07

I don't agree that the environmental movement is a "new age religion," but I get your point about any zealous movement's absolutist belief system. Many, if not most, of us who consider ourselves environmentalists do not act, or even promote in absolute terms. The same for religion. My concern is that when any politician begins spotting such language they are promoting a narrowing of ideas and beliefs. The current administration is very guilty of just such acts, and so I now fear anyone who even smacks of such rhetoric.

Comment By Chris La Tray, 12-12-07

I don't know, Craig, that seems a bit sloppy for you. You are linking a quote of a quote, with the original article no longer accessible. For all we know, the actual quote could have been:

I intend to be the "instrument of God"dess leading my faithful army of treehuggers so that "we can create a kingdom right here on Earth."


Man, if that were the case I'd probably change my vote in his favor faster than you can google "Oprah."

Comment By Inky, 12-12-07

Can't. Stop. Laughing.
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuWUdUDUIDQ

Comment By Marion, 12-12-07

Worried, look up the definition of religious, and you will see the definition fits perfectly. Folks talk about looking into the eyes of a wolf and seeing their soul. "Mother Earth" "Extended family Bison", etc. Look at the attempts to force everyone to believe as they do, and gather everyone under one world order (church) to stop global warming. We're called "nonbelievers" if we do not fall into line with global warming "believers". We are bad (sinners) if we don't swallow the GW hook, line, and sinker. I think it fits pretty well.
If you think most environmentalists do no act in absolute, read any thread about wolves (never enough), any endangered species, no matter how plentiful (only enviros having control of the land can save them), about buffalo/brucellosis, or about global warming, you will see no lack of thsoe who are absolutists.

Comment By Worried, 12-12-07

Thank you for proving my point Marion.

Comment By Jon, 12-12-07

Ok Sweed, I think we may be on the same page now.

Marion, there may be some spiritual components to those who believe the environment should be protected, but describing them in the terms that you do clearly show a bias from your perspective. You're painting conservationists with a pretty broad brush.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-12-07

Chris, check CNN or even Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300135,00.html

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-12-07

Chris, then there is ABC News: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/10/obama-faith-pla.html

>>>>>>>>>>
After three years working with the ministries in the communities Obama says, "I discovered that God works in mysterious ways. I thought I was helping their people out they were helping me. I thought I was coming to save a community but in fact I was the one who was being saved."

It was this relationship that led to the definition of Obama’s personal religion of Christianity, "Through that interaction with the church I accepted Jesus Christ in my life."

The formation of that religion and faith is one that Obama admits he leans on in the challenge of running for president, "Sometimes this is a tough road being in politics, not only what other people can do to you, but to what you can do to yourself."

Saying his faith, on that tough road, plays every role, "It’s what keeps me grounded, what keeps my eyes set on to the greatest heights. What propels me to do what I do and when I get down its what lifts me up."

Pledging to help infuse the government with the same spirit of charity and love that the church brings him, the Senator preached to the South Carolina congregation, "I can be an instrument of God they same way all of you are."
<<<<<<<<<<<<

Neither Obama's nor Huckabee's religious remarks of how faith plays a guding role in their lives bothers me. Again I ask, "why do D's like Obama get a pass, while R's are excoriated?

Comment By Chris La Tray, 12-12-07

Thanks, Craig, you google so I don't have to!

I'm not arguing the point though. I don't give either of those yayhoos passes.

Comment By peter webster, 12-12-07

I don't give anybody a "pass" for pious blathering, nobody in the middle or on the right or on the left. Nor anyone who stands up and tries to convince the world they have a direct line to god.

Comment By flounder, 12-12-07

Just came across an article about how Evangelical Christians have started burning people at the stake again. This time it is children. Huckabee's people:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2224553,00.html

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-12-07

Chris, good to see you are sitting up and taking nouishment. You've been as scarce as Bob Wire at a Toby Keith concert.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-12-07

Regarding today's GOP Iowa debate ABC News seems partial to Huckabee: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=3990796&page=1

Comment By Marion, 12-12-07

I'm watching Fox News and it seems the focus group they had at the debate were overwhelmingly approving of Romney. And that group thought he won the debate....such as it was.

Comment By Chris La Tray, 12-12-07

"Chris, good to see you are sitting up and taking nouishment. You've been as scarce as Bob Wire at a Toby Keith concert."

Ha! That's actually pretty funny.


Seriously, though, I just read an article online. Here are a couple points from it (if I may steal your formatting technique, Craig):

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In an article to be published Sunday in The New York Times, Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

Romney, vying to become the first Mormon elected president, declined to answer that question during an interview Wednesday, saying church leaders in Salt Lake City had already addressed the topic.

"But I think attacking someone's religion is really going too far. It's just not the American way, and I think people will reject that," Romney told NBC's "Today" show.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think attacking a person's religion is going too far. I don't know that Americans agree, necessarily, because these guys wouldn't do it if they didn't think it worked. I'm not a big fan of religion, but I try not to hold it against people as long as their deeds measure up to what comes out of their mouth. By the same token, I don't like the whole "he lets killers out of jails so they can kill again!" take that folks are getting at vs. the Huckster.

I suspect Romney wears socks with sandals, though. I couldn't vote for a guy who does that.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-13-07

Chris, Huckabee committed a terrible gaffe here. It involves judgment, knowledge, and intent. Either he didn't know that statement was false or he did and said it anyway. The judgment to make such a statement either way was completely haywire. Few, if any, candidates escape the competitive political process without their bonehead moments. Sad really. Remember Hillary's Ghandi gas station remark?

It's one thing for a person to reflect upon and talk about how their faith guides their own life, but it certainly is anything but religious charity to discuss another's faith in a false, negative way about the tenants of their beliefs.

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-13-07

Tenants???? Talk about gaffes. Should be 'tenets.' Like Huckabee, I must have had my head implanted between my cheeks.

Comment By Jake Hobsen, 12-13-07

Go MITT.

Comment By Inky, 12-13-07

Here's why Hucky doesn't get a pass:
http://www.nwanews.com/adg/Editorial/210393/

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-14-07

Inky, why do you give D's like Hillary a pass not only over religion but over pardons? She keeps reminding us that she is running for re-election POTUS. Therefore, she was part of the pardoning process "for sale." http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/02/28/pardons_reemerge_as_issue_in_clinton_run/

>>>>>>>>>
Six years ago, the launch of Hillary Clinton's career in the US Senate was marred by allegations that her brothers had received payments from people pardoned by President Bill Clinton in the waning months of his presidency.

Now, in the wake of the launch of her presidential campaign, the pardon controversy has reemerged in an obscure court case in which Senator Clinton's brother Tony is battling an order to repay more than $100,000 he received from a couple pardoned by President Clinton.

Tony Rodham, who acknowledged approaching the president about a pardon for the couple, is the second of Hillary Clinton's brothers to receive money from people who were eventually pardoned by President Clinton. Hugh Rodham received $400,000 from two people, one of whom was pardoned and one whose sentence was commuted.

But while Hillary Clinton immediately expressed chagrin over the news in 2001 that Hugh received the money -- and asked him to return it -- she said Tony was "not paid," according to a congressional report. The Clinton campaign yesterday declined to comment on the case involving Tony Rodham.

Clinton critics have been seeking to revive an array of controversies, from the Whitewater land deal to the Monica Lewinsky case. The Clinton campaign has sought to depict them as old or moot cases. But the Tony Rodham case could be different because it is in court just as Senator Clinton's campaign reaches full speed.

Yesterday, US Bankruptcy Court Judge Marian Harrison of Nashville ordered Tony Rodham to respond by March 16 to the allegation that he failed to repay a loan of $107,000 from the couple pardoned by Clinton, according to attorneys involved in the case.

President Clinton's pardons have been a political issue for Hillary Clinton because of her ties to a number of the cases. In addition to the people who paid her brothers, those receiving pardons included commodities trader Marc Rich, a fugitive who was prosecuted for tax evasion by then-US Attorney Rudolph Giuliani and fled to Switzerland. Rich was pardoned after his former wife, Denise Rich, contributed heavily to Hillary Clinton's Senate campaign.

Controversy over the pardons was reignited last week after Hollywood mogul and former Clinton supporter David Geffen criticized the Clintons for the Rich pardon.

"It is a legitimate campaign issue," said Stephen Gillers, professor of legal ethics at New York University School of Law. He said that Hillary Clinton should answer questions about her brothers' and her own involvement in the pardons because "the stench of the Marc Rich pardon still stinks and it has never been adequately explained. "

The Tony Rodham lawsuit revolves around his work for a carnival company, United Shows of America, which was owned by Edgar and Vonna Jo Gregory. The couple, who had been convicted of bank fraud, hired Tony Rodham as a business consultant and paid him $244,769 in salary over 2 1/2 years, according to a congressional report.

President Clinton pardoned the couple in March 2000. The Republican-controlled House Government Reform Committee issued a 2002 report that said Rodham had helped the couple obtain the pardon.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Comment By Inky, 12-14-07

Okay Craig, the Rodhams are odious people.
Happy?
Haven't yet heard from the anti-Clinton hit machine that anyone they pardoned went on to rape and murder like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFTdif_Lvsk

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-14-07

Inky, you are seizing on a very tragic situation and projecting it for political purposes. The fact is the rate of recidvism on released or paroled convicted criminals is very high no matter whether a state governor is an R or a D. Noone has 20-20 foresight. Mistakes are made as judged by the outcome. Are you sugggesting there should be no paroles or pardons? Should only the ones that pay for their pardons or paroles, like under Hill & Bill Inc., receive such consideration?

Comment By Inky, 12-16-07

Gee, Craig, what did the Republicans do with the Willie Horton issue, back when Mike Dukakis was the D's presidential candidate?
They seized "on a very tragic situation" and projected it for political purposes.
And now, from those wonderful folks at CBN (http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/287527.aspx), we find that Hucky is an exaggerator, claiming a degree he really doesn't have. Hmmm, do I recall the Rs and lapdog media piling on Al Gore's statement about the Internet?

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-16-07

Too bad Inky that you lower yourself and make the argument that "one bad act justifies another." Unless, of course, you think the Willie Horton issue was proper. I really don't know what to say to you in either case. Shame really. Just don't know how you defend attacking Huckabee as justification for defending Dukakis. It boggles the mind.

Comment By jedediah, 12-16-07

That ol' canard which tries to force everybody who thinks passionately into the delusional phenomena of religiosity is getting pretty tiresome.

I think we need to quit pissing in the soup.
If we do not, the soup will soon begin to taste like urine.

I think that is true enough to make me kind of passionately frustrated that fools and scofflaws pay no attention to environmentalist's cautionaries.

I can offer evidence to support what I think.

The most faithful of religious believers cannot...

Comment By Inky, 12-16-07

And who on the right ever decried the Willie Horton ads used against Dukakis? Atwater and Rove started and then ramped up this evil, destructive approach to politics. Do you think it can just be switched off like an electric light?

Comment By Craig Moore, 12-16-07

Inky, my goodness. Are you saying that you don't have it within your power to choose right action over wrong? That D's need R's to set the example for proper behavior because you are unable to see and choose it for yourselves?

Comment By opporsmus, 9-08-08

Force them <a >mp3 debates subjects for free downloads</a> Wise <a >the red jumpsuit apparatus mp3 download</a> cave <a ></a> frozen slightly <a >free mp3 photography downloads</a> gravity struck <a >britney spears mp3 download</a> curious although <a >mp3 download japanese boy</a> suddenly front <a >esaka download mp3</a> According <a >clean mp3 download</a> alive <a ></a> zoo <a >download a free mp3 encoder</a> command freedom <a >splitting mp3 files downloads</a> winter <a >tatsuya oe download mp3</a> only <a >free mp3 downloads dane cook</a> chance Onto <a >free mp3 download norther</a> Cookies <a >websites to download songs onto mp3</a> chief Negative <a >mp3 charts download</a> game want <a >bhaja govindam mp3 download</a> source plus <a >usher burn mp3 download</a> toward <a >anxiety mp3 download</a> struck Rhythm <a >shukumei mp3 download</a> shoulder Clean <a >psychology free download mp3</a> coast cheese <a >three six mafia free mp3 downloads</a> Shorter <a >free download mp3 song beautiful girl</a> Interior bat <a >richard sanderson mp3 download mp3</a> Cap everything <a >learn spanish mp3 download</a> produce <a >allegro brilliant ten have download mp3</a> determine fallen <a >mp3 free download of satisfactions mp3</a> red band <a >kishore kumar mp3 downloads</a> giant <a >white dawg all alone mp3 download</a> post Above <a >chat download free mp3 music</a>

Comment By joyjinoskiy, 12-15-08

<a >медсестра порно видео скачать</a>

Comment By QuenzBuena, 2-24-09

Catch good discounted Software right now.
OEMS ARE AVAILABLE ON ANY EUROPEAN LANGUAGES - English, French, Italian, Spanish, German

Sensation! ADOBE CS4 ALREADY AVALIBLE
PLEASE CHECK PRICES AT OUR STORE!
-
Windows Vista Ultimate - $79.95
Windows XP Pro With SP2 - $59.95
Office Enterprise 2007 - $79.95
Adobe Creative Suite 3 Master Collection - $299.95
Adobe Acrobat Pro 8 - $79.95
Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended - $99.95
AutoCAD 2008 - $149.95



Also we have so much soft for All Macs:

Microsoft Office for Apple Mac - $79.96
Adobe Acrobat 7 Professional for Apple Macintosh - $79.96
Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium for MacOS X - $199.96
Macromedia Dreamweaver 8 for MACINTOSH - $79.96
Adobe Photoshop CS2 for MAC - $79.96



To get full list of the offers, follow: <a >order windows service pack 2</a>


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<a >adobe photoshop sale</a>
<a >microsoft office oem</a>
<a >buy photoshop software</a>
<a >adobe illustrator prices</a>
<a >adobe photoshop cs2</a>
<a >windows vista cheaper</a>
<a >adobe creative suite 1.3</a>
<a >buys windows xp</a>
<a >buy adobe acrobat 7 professional</a>
<a >adobe non profit discount</a>

This article was printed from www.newwest.net at the following URL: http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/holy_crap_i_heart_huckabee/C37/L37/