Bob Wire Has a Point (Under His Cowboy Hat)
Public Breastfeeding: Two Sides to Every Story
By Bob Wire, 1-04-09
Recently a public breast-feeding brouhaha was reported in the Missoulian, and it brought a pretty spirited reaction from a lot of people who had plenty of opinions on the subject. I’ve also got a few thoughts on the whole controversy, and fortunately, I’ve also got my own bully pulpit.
To recap, a young mother was approached by the manager of a local restaurant and told to stop the uncovered breastfeeding her baby, as it was upsetting some of the other diners.
You know, in a vegetarian joint, you probably see it at every other table. But this happened at a Red Robin, for chrissake. Normal folks. Average Joes. Meat eaters and breastfeeders: I’m not saying they can’t coexist, I’m just suggesting that the next time a mom is going to nourish her baby while surrounded by strangers, maybe she should weigh the minor inconvenience of covering up her breast against the discomfort of everybody else in the restaurant. Because you know what they say, if you’ve seen one, you’ve seen ‘em both.
It’s not uncommon to see a woman breastfeeding her child in Missoula. We all know that it’s totally natural, beautiful thing, vital to a baby’s health, blah blah blibbidy blah. Personally, I wouldn’t know. My mom refused to breastfeed me as a baby. Said she didn’t like me “that way.”
Seriously, I have absolutely no problem a woman breastfeeding her baby in a public place. But not everyone is comfortable with it. My problem is with this woman’s reaction, that she is somehow a victim. Yes, the law does specify that it is not illegal to breastfeed in public. And granted, from what I read, the manager could have been more sensitive or diplomatic about relating his or her concerns to the mom in question.
But there’s more to it than the letter of the law. What about social convention? What’s missing in the big outcry is common sense. Did this woman not have access to a napkin to cover up the transaction in deference to the other patrons? Did she perhaps have a blankie in her diaper bag? I don’t think it’s right for her to insist that everyone else in the restaurant share her attitude that a bared breast in a restaurant is the best for all involved. I don’t care what the law says—the law also doesn’t make it illegal for me to put a bumper sticker on my car that says, “I’m sleeping with an honor student at Meadow Hill Middle School.” That doesn’t mean I’m going to do it. Again.
Stumble It!
http://www.top-blogs.com/cgi-bin/rankem.cgi?id=ednor59
Were the other restaurant patrons somehow paralyzed or unable to move their heads so they weren't looking at the breastfeeding baby? Did they not have access to napkins to cover their eyes, if it bothered them so much?
Actually, when a baby is breastfeeding, the baby pretty much covers up the breast. Putting a blanket over baby's head bothers many babies - they like to be able to see their mother's face while they nurse.
I see lots of things in restaurants and other public places that I'd sooner not look at (people talking with their mouths full, underwear and butt cleavage showing thanks to low-slung pants, etc.) but I have an easy remedy - I just look away. Really, it's not that hard.
I agree with every point Teresa makes. My baby wouldn't let me cover her face (which is what you're doing when you're covering the breast) while she was feeding, nothing was visible that wouldn't have been visible in a low-cut shirt, and what business is it of theirs anyway? It's legally right, and more important, it's morally right, for a woman to be able to feed her child when it's hungry without having to be exiled from society.
What next? If a Muslim couple chooses to eat in that restaurant but their presence "makes other patrons uncomfortable," will the manager ask them to leave as well?
I think it was the great Mike Royko who said, "I don't mind if you breastfeed in public so long as you don't mind if I stare at your breasts."
And why, for the sake of fun news, didn't this happen at Hooters?
Like guys ever needed an excuse to do that. :)
Comment By Bob Wire, 1-05-09@Sharon:
You argue like a gun nut. Using a phrase like "exiled from society" injects hyperbole and shrillness into the discussion. And then to make the leap to a hot-button group like Muslims, it's classic NRA-style misdirection.
@Teresa:
Personally, I do turn my head, in order to provide the mother with some privacy. I make it a point to ignore the breastfeeding so that SHE doesn't feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people out there who are far more uptight, and are bothered by it.
Ah, yes, the cliched devastating put-down of a woman: call her "shrill."
Comment By Bob Wire, 1-05-09Wow, pulling sexism out of thin air? By jove, I do believe you've hit the trifecta.
Comment By Patia, 1-05-09Sorry, Bob, I gotta disagree with you on this one. It is a sad day when people are disgusted and offended by the sight of a mother nursing her infant.
When I ate dinner at Red Robin a few weeks ago, I was grossed out by the loooong, stringy beard of a man sitting at the table across from us. I finally had to force myself to stop looking in that direction, as I was losing my appetite. Did I complain to the manager? No. I recognized that it was my problem and my responsibility to look the other way.
Again, I personally don't have a problem with it.
But you're right about one thing, Patia: it IS a sad day. The blunt reality is that there are still whole restaurants full of unenlightened people who are offended by something as natural as breastfeeding. I understand that some babies won't feed if they're covered up, and I have no answer for that. But common courtesy dictates that breastfeeding moms should cover up.
And yes, we all see a hundred things every day that gross us out or offend us in some way. But I think this issue stands on its own.
I'm sorry, Bob Wire, that your mom didn't love you "that way."
It's the most natural, cost effective, healthy, and loving way to nurture an infant. Nursing moms and babies shouldn't have to hide like they are engaging in some taboo or stigmatized activity. Thankfully our Montana Constitution has spelled that out.
There is usually very little flesh on display. Mom's clothing and baby's head get in the way. Some people just have an issue with the whole idea. Generally they are people who have some repulsion for this natural and loving nurturing of a child -- people who think of breasts as sexual rather than maternal.
I was surprised by the brouhaha as I was under the, apparently mistaken, impression that we lived in a more enlightened time and town.
I don't understand, Bob. If the sight of a woman breastfeeding bothers you, why did you illustrate this column with a picture of one?
Comment By Sharon Fisher, 1-05-09No, common courtesy dictates that people realize that babies need to be fed, that that doesn't always occur at convenient times for everyone, and that adults can handle the notion of a breast being used for this natural purpose and ignore it.
What is it that the manager expected the mom to do, anyway? Pop it out and let the hungry baby scream? Personally, I'd find that *far* more disturbing when I'm a restaurant patron. Go to the bathroom, and feed a baby in that germ-infested area, not to mention tying up a stall? Have the entire party leave the restaurant? Go out to the car, in a Montana December?
Bob, if it doesn't bother you, then why do you keep making it out to be the mom's fault?
"I have absolutely no problem a woman breastfeeding her baby in a public place." "Again, I personally don't have a problem with it."
Hello? Is this thing on?
I used the picture because it's funny.
Jesus Christ, did you even bother to read my article?
Look, I can keep saying the same thing over and over again, and you guys can keep ignoring it. But that doesn't get this discussion anywhere.
Please don't accuse me of relegating anyone to the restroom or car. If you do, please show me where I said that. And I am NOT against breastfeeding. Hello? Cover up with a napkin or blankie? Show a little consideration for your fellow diners? That's all I'm saying. Feel free to disagree, but don't put words in my mouth.
Resorting to expletives now?
Cover up? Okay. Let's all cover our faces with napkins or hide under blankets while we eat. It's so very comfortable, after all. Do you want to set the example and we'll follow your lead?
Ridiculous? Well...That's what you are suggesting that nursing moms should do to their babies.
Okay, I'm not trying to piss you off, but you are contradicting yourself by saying that breastfeeding doesn't bother you, but mothers should cover up. That's like saying nudity doesn't bother you, as long as they're wearing clothes.
Comment By flyfishdude, 1-05-09Bob,
I realize that you have nothing against brestfeeding in public, however I must politely disagree with one of your points in a comment to patia, that common courtesy dictates a feeding mother should cover up. Common courtesy dictates that the offended should find another place to fix their gaze, even if it means finding another table to sit at.
As I said in the comments at the Missoulian's article, it's not as simple as "just cover your baby's head with a blankie". Neither of my babies simply latched on and stayed there, and due to my, um, extravagant chest, I can't get a proper latch accomplished blind. Bob, once you've breastfed a baby 6-12 times per day for months on end, I'll have more understanding of your position.
Comment By Scott, 1-05-09Ewwwww......Red Robin.
Comment By Clarence Worly, 1-05-09Welp....
I raised two kids. My ex breast fed both of them in resturants from time to time. Never got asked to leave though, she somehow managed to get them plugged in under the privacy of a blanket.
Don't get me wrong, if a gal can't get Jr. fed without all her goods hanging out in public I completely understand. I just hope she doesn't mind me getting some close ups with my cell cam to post on milkingmamas.com
Bob, you look a bit lonely today.
I agree with flyfishdude. I think you struck out with, "But common courtesy dictates that breastfeeding moms should cover up."
I probably should have read the article before forwarding it on to Tea Cuppa. She'll have some words for you, I'm sure.
Bob-
Perhaps what is required here is for local government entities to issue a Public Breastfeeding Permit (PBP). PBPs would be awarded only after a lactating lass successfully passes a written test on public breastfeeding etiquette.
Women who paid a small licensing fee would then be issued a Public Breastfeeding Permit. These licensed women would then be allowed to breast feed in public restaurants, Albertson’s food stores, Les Schwab Tire Centers, barber shops, and other public gatherin’ places. And government coffers would swell with the influx of breastfed fees.
Of course there would be backlash to such a permit and tax on public breastfeeding. Picketing mothers would wave protest signs that read “No taxation on lactation!”
Yes, it's difficult to give up individual rights for the greater social good. But failure to license and properly manage public breastfeeding could lead to lawlessness. And once breastfeeding is outlawed, only outlaws will be breastfed. And no one wants to see that.
-Jon Cheever
No taxation on lactation........Priceless
Comment By Leona, 1-06-09i LOVES me some meat!! ribs, or a nice steak cooked medium rare will hit the spot ANY day (or night)... and by the way, i'm currently breastfeeding my 2nd child. the whole concept of "just" covering up sounds simple enough, though from personal experience, i know that it's not always possible. you know what happens when a baby gets irritated at something covering it's head or face (or feet, or anything)? it pulls it off! that's right, babies are moving, living creatures with minds of their own, not stiff dolls.
and on that topic of everyone else's comfort... i find it absolutely disgusting to see a 15 year old girl (or woman of any age) wearing skin tight shorts small enough to be underwear with words like "delicious" written across the butt and/or a midriff top almost indistinguishable from lingerie (in which most of the breasts are exposed)... and yet we see it everywhere. do i complain to the manager of the establishment? do they even have a law protecting them? (no... there ARE decency laws, though...) people need to get over themselves. if you don't like it, don't look (whether it's clothing or breastfeeding). that's what everyone says about EVERYTHING else, right? give me a break.
Dear Johnbob, well I used to love you in that way, but it's all over now!!
You're usually so funny, burn the toast??, Drop a pick down the sound-hole?? Got a bit of baby envy?? =|:>)=
Bob know one has said it, but your a red neck, sexist jerk. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
Comment By Eden, 1-06-09Today I am sad thinking about the place where I am raising my son.
This feels like the same kind of angry undercurrent I experienced with respect to the racial divide in Chicago. We live together, blacks, whites, liberals and conservatives etc., but the facade of "harmoniousness" comes crashing down when certain buttons are pushed and we are reminded of all that divides us.
I am more interested in what unites us. Where is the balanced, responsible reporting?
You will note that in all the articles, my sister never once lashed out in anger or failed to acknowledge the other side of the issue. And for the record, she was not being blatant or anything of the sort during the incident.
Eden, you and your sister are doing this community and all nursing mothers and babies a great service by providing the catalyst for this issue to be discussed. I know it's hard to be at the center of the firestorm, but hang in there, it will eventually fade away. And when it does, a lot of people will have at least gotten to hear another point of view, and maybe a few will even have become more accepting and tolerant.
Comment By Bob Wire, 1-06-09Eden, I'm sorry for the distress this episode has caused your sister. My own efforts to express an opinion have failed miserably, and many have pointed out that I can't have it both ways. This is one column I probably shouldn't have posted. Not because the majority of readers have disagreed with my opinion, but to be honest, it's just not a subject I feel that strongly about.
As I've learned in more than two years of writing for an online entity, people and their opinions quickly reach the redline when they are protected by anonymity, and the ability to post before they think (me included).
Public breastfeeding is a pretty emotionally charged issue, obviously, and there are many elements and many sides to the original story of what went down in Red Robin that day. For what it's worth, I'm taking away a lesson in humility and empathy. I would only suggest to you that you continue to look to the people and the things that made you call Missoula your home in the first place, and don't let this momentary internet shitstorm cause you to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Finally, my column is the last place you should look for balanced or responsible reporting.
Bob, et al,
I appreciate a little inappropriate humor....alot, actually.
This particular issue has just hit home in a way that makes me feel very sad and veyr protective of my 13 years younger sister. She is so generous and open. And, for the record, never would have called the paper. That was me. She went along with it and I feel I brought something awful into her life at a time when she is still hormonally adjusting and when she ought to be just enjoying her baby.
I meant it when I said to her that "This is Missoula, it's ok. no one will hassle you here" and I feel like I have sold her a somewhat false bill of goods.
I am completely ok with discussion, even heated discussion....but the folks that felt it was appropriate to attack her personally, well, I did the same in younger years....so....
I deeply appreciate the showing of support and I still love Missoula. I am raising my son here, who happens to be a adopted and black...I just wish that I could show him an example of balance and respect and open mindedness instead of just telling him about it. I guess it's more or less the same anywhere you go.
Thanks.
This whole thing has me astonished. I've breastfed my kid at a wide range of Missoula restaurants, bakeries, and even a retail store or two for about a year now (he's about to turn 1) and never had anyone bat an eye. I'm blown away by all the negative comments in both NewWest and the Missoulian. I hope Eden and Sonnie realize that this "flap" is a total anomaly for Missoula. As a whole, this town is very supportive and I'd say about 99 out of a 100 times, breastfeeding in public is exactly what it should be- just a way to feed a hungry baby, that's all. The other one time... well, some people just don't understand, but that is their problem, not yours.
Oh, and Bob- you have a right to say you'd rather I covered up. But I have a right not to cover up, and because my kid is a blanket-hating kinda guy, I need to use that right all the time. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
That's cool.
Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-06-09This is ridiculous.
Baby doesn't like blankie or nappie. But I'm ENTITLED to my night out, and I want to show off my motherly rack! Nyah nyah! Hey, if it was that motherly, I'd enjoy it, but a lot of people might not.
Now, what if your baby squalled all the time, you know, the kind of squalling that makes it tough to sleep on the midnight redeye flight from Anchorage? "Oh, but he or she might be an opera star?"
If you know your brat is a howler, would you STILL bring them for a night out? Wow, I'd really enjoy my meal with such trilling.
This all comes down to a matter of discretion. Momma COULD deliberately pick a corner booth and face away from the crowd? Is that possible? Ya betcha. A little class, here, please. One never knows if Church Lady and her husband of 50 years are in town for their monthly "special" night and Church Lady gets the vapors and hubby doesn't get his special.
Society seems to have freaked out when it comes to cigarettes...I don't like the smell but feel the "cancer threat" was completely overblown, and I always have the choice of eating in a smokeless restaurant.
What's next...breast-free restaurants? Or the converse?
Yeah, breastfeeding and smoking are totally comparable. And I'm sure that my asthmatic son will end up in the emergency room because he watches me breastfeed his little sister. Right.
Comment By newton, 1-06-09Sometimes my two year old son pulls his pants and diapers down just far enough to expose his "thing" and hold on to it. It is perfectly natural and nothing wrong with it. People just need to get over their outmoded and old fashioned sense of decency and etiquitte.
Comment By Katie, 1-06-09In response to Dave Skinner:
Yes, indeed, mothers with infants are absolutely entitled to be in public. I'm flabbergasted that you would be sarcastic about a mother being entitled to dine out. With regard to your comments concerning discretion: discretion is only required when doing something possibly offensive. Why feeding a baby in the oldest and best way should be offensive and require discretion is a foreign concept to me. It is neither offensive nor lacking in "class."
Eden, I was shocked to read the Missoulian article. As I said before, I had been under the impression that we live in a more enlightened time and place. Like "I feed my kid," I breast fed my son anywhere and everywhere that I happened to be when he was hungry. I most definitely feel entitled to be out in public as should, I believe, everyone. I was never subjected to any such ignorance as your sister and, indeed, your entire party was subjected to. It was surprising and disheartening to read about your sister's experience. I do hope, and honestly believe, that in our great town such attitudes and actions are the exception rather than the rule and hope that your sister will not harbor any regrets either about her exercising her right to breastfeed in public or going "public" with the issue.
So far in this and the Missoulian thread, people have compared breastfeeding to smoking, masturbation, urination, and child molestation. In the immortal words of Sesame Street, "Which of these things is not like the other? Tell me which one doesn't belong!"
Comment By chris, 1-06-09Bob, I'll state that my personal take is that women should breastfeed in public if they want to. My wife did and will again (in 5 months!). I also believe that those put off by public breastfeeding should probably bear the burden of averting their eyes. At the same time can not a breastfeeding woman also be aware that not everyone views breastfeeding as publicly appropriate and cover up if the infant allows it? What I find missing in these back and forths is a basic recognition that people may hold differing perspectives. In public debates, we should shy away from just dismissing another's view.
Comment By jedediah Redman, 1-06-09When you find Dave Skinner even coming close to agreeing with your point of view, you must know you have posted another stinkeroo, robert.
I think you need to start setting them aside for a day or two and then rewriting them before posting...
Like all issues this issue is not a black and white one. Should every Mother be able to feed her child in public? Of course, I think that you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would disagree.
But that is not really what people get upset about. The issue that is at the heart of breastfeeding in public is vulgarity. Now I’m not saying that breastfeeding is vulgar. The picture that Bob included with his article proves that. But I’m saying that breastfeeding can be vulgar. This is how breastfeeding is not a black and white issue.
Just like how nudity can be vulgar, as seen in any pornography. Nudity can also be a beautiful, such as seen in the Venus de Milo by Leonardo da Vinci.
Breastfeeding is the very same way. When done with at least an attempt at discretion most people have no problem with it. But the instance that you abandon all tact many people will have a problem. This comes down to what I think Bob was trying to say. Please just exercise some discretion. Make it beautiful and sublime. Not crude and distracting.
noflashbang-
now, your statement is a little confusing... breastfeeding isn't vulgar (as proven by the obviously fake photo posted in the article) and yet it is? and again, there's that comparison to pornography! there is absolutely nothing sexual about feeding a baby. if someone thinks there is, then they are the one with problems.
people will complain whether discretion is practiced or not. if they can tell that a woman is nursing- even if she's not putting herself on display- and yet dislike the act, they will complain. i have yet to see a woman breastfeeding in public with shirt wide open and breasts bared (though some clothing styles of the non-breastfeeding women are similar if not worse than this... but no complaints there!). the people who complain are those disgusted with even thought of the act of breastfeeding. and they are generally looking too hard to begin with.
give us all a little credit.
I still think that the proponents here should show some class. Just like people who won't enforce good public behavior in their tykes. If I went to a fancy, spendy restaurant with mine sweetie, and the next table is populated by a squaller who hits the decibel level of a J-79 on afterburner, my rockets would light, fer shure. And they have in the past.
Same thing for popping the cork in public.
There's still hope for some, tho. The other night in Super One some dadster gave Junior a real high-intensity, low-volume lecture in "How Not To Shoplift." Hope the lesson takes, for a heck of a lot more kids than seems to be.
So when you go to a 'fancy, spendy restaurant with mine sweetie' you take her to Red Robin's?
It does, after all, bill itself as a *family* restaurant.
Do you perhaps not understand the connection between not being able to 'pop the cork in public,' resulting in 'a squaller who hits the decibel level of a J-79 on afterburner'?
Oh, I did, madame.
And I was thinking something a little more upscale...but anytime I dine out I, and expect others to, conform to certain social norms.
That's why I feel, as do many -- sadly fewer as our nation declines further into the intellectual and socialist gutter, that parents should do the responsible and classy thing and keep the babies home until they behave reasonably in public. "Seen and not heard?"
Just as smokers don't really have a right to "inflict" anywhere, anytime, nor do new parents.
Dave,
Quite being an ignoramus.
Thank you!
"seen and not heard" How delightfully Dickensian! not
Comment By Jim Davis, 1-08-09Mr. Skinner...your Proctologist's office called, they found your head.
Comment By Tom, 1-08-09There's absolutely nothing wrong with finding a nice quite corner booth and feeding you baby.
But if you're going to sit up front and start twirling your tits around, don't be surprised if I start applauding and throwing money.
If you seek privacy, I'll respect your privacy. You have no right to demand any more than that, and niether have I.
Applauding and throwing money. Yeah! That should work. Pennies?
Comment By Farmer Tom, 1-18-09Bob,
You sound reasonable but you got one thing wrong: there are not two sides to every story. The Holocaust is one-- there's no upside, you don't need to provide equal time to Holocaust deniers in order to be fair.
Not that this issue rises to that level of importance, it is nonetheless equally one-sided: breastfeeding is natural, the best way to feed an infant, and there is nothing bad, wrong, shameful, disgusting, etc, etc, etc about it. If people have a hang up with it that is *only* their problem, not the problem of a mom feeding a child. Let someone uncomfortable look away, move away or cover his or her head with a paper bag. There is not and should not be *any* onus on a mother to pay attention to anything else except feeding her baby.
Farmer Tom, if there are not two sides to this story, where is the controversy coming from? Dismissing the viewpoints you disagree with does not mean they don't exist. Sorry, your argument simply doesn't hold water, no matter which side of the fence you're on.
And I have to say that bring the Holocaust into the discussion, even as a misguided example, is just wrong.
The central question here is not whether breastfeeding is beneficial to mother or child, but rather whether it is disgusting behavior. The original poster obviously feels that it is. But the question is cultural in nature. There is clearly nothing disgusting about the breast itself. Women routinely show off its outline, and often substantial parts of the naked breast itself. The part that is generally regarded as indecent by law is the aerola and nipple. But even that is not disgusting per se. If it were, then it would be just as illegal for men to bare their chest in public as it is for women.
No, this is really a sexual issue. We in American society, on average, have chosen to regard sex in general as disgusting. We have also chosen to regard breasts as primarily sexual decorations rather than functional glands. Ipso facto, breastfeeding is disgusting since it involves direct manipulation of the sexy breast.
Breastfeeding is sometimes compared to public urination or defecation, but that's the wrong simile. Breastfeeding is not at all disgusting in the same way as defecation. We regard defecation as disgusting for perfectly rational reasons; human feces it is a considerable health hazard if not properly contained. Breastfeeding, even if done messily, poses no such public health risks.
No, a better comparison would be whether *sex* in public is disgusting behavior. Because, that is the real hangup here for the average American. Breastfeeding advocates need to understand this fact. People who object to public breastfeeding don’t see a mother feeding her child. Deep down, although they may not consciously understand it themselves, what they perceive is a mother *having sex* with her child. They react in exactly the same way they would if the woman’s husband were visibly groping her breasts.
This fundamental impedance mismatch is why the subject provokes such incendiary debate. As usual, the opposing camps are talking about completely different issues.
Kevin-
Too bad this thread is so old--your analysis of the subliminal relationship between sex and breastfeeding that most men have but don't realize is spot on. I had never thought of that correlation--seems like you've really hit the nail (or nipple) on the head with your thoughtful critique.
Thanks,
Jon Cheever.