By Guest Writer, 9-20-09
Creating a major new ski-and-golf resort is no easy trick - there have only been two in the United States in the last 20 years - and for a while it seemed that Moonlight Basin, opened in 2003, had made it over the proverbial hump.![]() |
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Big Sky, the Southwest Montana community that is itself a symbol of the challenges and opportunities of the New West, is growing up, even as its economy teeters. This story is part of a series about Big Sky produced by students from the University of Montana School of Journalism in collaboration with NewWest.Net. Click on the headlines below to catch up with the other parts of the series.
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Will, this was a well written piece and I wanted to congratulate you and all of the folks who wrote this series on Big Sky. It was well researched and well written and a definite positive addition to the information base on the area.
Comment By rs, 9-23-09moonlight was only possible in a hyper-inflated real estate market. The management team is arrogant, and appeared credible only because a "rising tide floats all boats." The bottom line: This totally unnecessary development, one giant wet dream wrapped in a hubris blanket, destroyed a pristine alpine wildlife habitat as well as drained millions from hundreds of trusting property and home purchasers whose investments significantly diminished. This resort has nothing to do with Montana or Montana values. Time to get real jobs boys......
Comment By fenske, 9-23-09"destroyed a pristine alpine wildlife habitat"
What planet are you from?
Fenske, absolutely correct.
before YC, before MLB, before SP, it was hard to call Big Sky pristine. its like everyone talking about the beauty of early 20th century Montana but conveniently leaving out the mining and buffalo slaughters...
MLB will be a successful development. The only reason that MLB, YC, and SP have had difficulties is that they borrowed too much of their development capital and when sales stopped or slowed they couldn't make their payments. nothing too complicated about that really.
if MLB can get their debt restructured there is plenty of real estate left to sell to finish the development - perhaps not at the same level of construction as before, but certainly in an acceptable way.
Big Sky/Bozeman will be one of the most attractive areas in the U.S. for years to come.
Even an old cowhand could see that these carpetbagging wind bags were all hat and no cattle...as for those who invested in a puffed up whiskey dream...don't feel too lonely they'll be others joining your posse when ponzi peaks bites the dust. RS...saddle up you'll ride with the Vigilante...as for you Moonlighters...Good Luck!........Farwell......Vaya Con Dios my friends!
Comment By Moonlighter, 9-24-09I consider myself a "Moonlighter", though I try to ski BS and BB a few times a year. I think this resort has a lot to do with Montana and it's values. Great ski hill at a great price (especially if your in school). I don't really see them shutting the doors and dismantling the lifts. If anything, operations will continue until there is a new buyer. Once there is a new buyer, I don't see many changes except for some possible expansion.
From the consumers point of view, I don't think anything will change. Some people are funny, of course upper management will shift, but its not like Lone Mtn is going to implode on itself!
The Gravy Train's over kids.
Now the hangover begins.
I can tell you right now what's going to happen: the lifts and other equipment will simply NOT receive routine maintenance or be repaired quickly if something should break.
Then someone will get injured - or worse, die - then there will be more lawsuits. That's when the resort will finally bite the dust.
If you do not think this place can be completely shuttered, take a look at Tamarack in Idaho. Anything is possible along with this place going to the mothballs, sad but all too true for many areas.
Comment By MLB employee, 9-24-09Mehmnet, interesting theory.
Too bad we have completed all out scheduled maintenance on all of our lifts and equipment.
People seem to forget one salient point. Currently Moonlight Basin holds a tremendous potential value. 100-200 million dollars.
If Lehman or anyone else allows the place to devolve into what you predict, the values are cut by up to 75%.
If you were a potential owner, would you just mothball the place and see your values decline or would you spend a million or 2 to protect your ass?
Honestly, the people who comment here for the most part have no idea how any business let alone the ski business works.
MLB employee,
You call what happened here business? How many sales have you had this last month? How is the golfing on Jack's great design? Ski/board terrain is great I will give you that. But, Sure seems like the ownership/management is not so great. Clearly, all the borrowed monies were not managed well. How much money did ownership funnel into other LLC's? It is the same old story take, take, take.... Numerous times in the valley I heard off hand remarks about when not if! For you to somehow defend the lack of business restraint shows ignorance. Time to wake up from your dream! Seems like more mortgages showing up?! Where was the ownership/management restraint to protect your current land holders? Again, like YC, out of control spending of borrowed money. Accountability is warranted.
Sharkbait, of course it was business...what Poole and the other owners did with the money doesn't matter any more. A group of investors will come along that will look at the remaining dirt and value of the Ennis access and will take this off Lehman's hands for maybe the same ratio Credit Suisse got for their YC debt. The new owner will be able to take advantage of great infrastruture that wasn't built in an economic way, but it doesn't matter any more!
all the looking back is irrelevant. For what someone can pick Moonlight up for today, it probably makes sense financially. Just like YC, dues will be higher, usage fees will be higher, but the ski deal will get cut with Big Sky, the golf course will get finished, higher density housing will be developed, and off we go.
the only way MLB doesn't make it in some form is if Big Sky becomes relatively less attractive than other areas, or if a new player can't raise the money. Neither of those seem likely to me.
Lehman has committed to providing money - but they are financially-troubled as well.
It could be that at some point there simply will not be the available cash to maintain all the routine maintenance.
OR - the money being put in to MLB is not worth the money coming out.
Happens all the time.
"Just like YC, dues will be higher, usage fees will be higher, but the ski deal will get cut with Big Sky, the golf course will get finished, higher density housing will be developed, and off we go. "
Oh yeah - people will be spending money, just like that *SNAP*.
What "Recession"?
It great to see something written about the Big Sky area that isn't negative. I enjoyed reading a story based on facts, not deep rooted feelings of resentment.
To those of you who are negative and going to be no matter what, that's fine. It's not worth arguing about. But for that crowd, I'd like to say that the community of Big Sky is strong. If you've never been there or apart of it before, you are under-estimating the people who live there big time. This is a community, that in one night can raise over $100,000 at a 'Pie Auction' of all things, for the local school. This community pulls together for a family with a sick child stuck in a Seattle hospital, fundraises to help them keep their business and pay their medical bills. This community, far after you leave it, still takes care of you holding fundraises, silent auctions and anything they can do even if you've moved to Washington, as a friend of mine had who's family was struggling with illness.
It's a magical place my friend. The will to survive and help your neighbor is far stronger than anything in Bozeman or Missoula, which I have lived both. I may be speaking over my head here, but I believe to the residents (yes, there are many hardworking residents that live in the "TOWN" of Big Sky) Moonlight Basin is their neighbor, and to many, their employer.
Many people seem to resent the Big Sky area. I seem to understand that to be because the economy where they live is struggling and they cannot afford to partake. I was looking for a new pair of tennis shoes for the last week in Missoula. They were all over priced. I just happened to be in Big Sky and found a pair of $100 shoes for $40. Kids get free ski passes, employers of all kind provide ski passes (even if you work for a gas station). It's more affordable than you think. You can choose to live however you want, but if you choose to not live where you can enjoy all the opportunities you complain about not being able to partake in, quit complaining. It was your choice.
In our economic times, no one should be happy about any business on the rocks. Gallatin County Resort 'business' also affects families in Billings, Missoula and even Kalispell. No matter where we live in Montana, we could learn a lot about Montana Community from Big Sky/Moonlight.
Excuse me...And Madison County - where Moonlight/Big Sky are...
Comment By MLB employee, 9-25-09Memmnet, you wrote this, did you not?
"I can tell you right now what's going to happen: the lifts and other equipment will simply NOT receive routine maintenance or be repaired quickly if something should break.
Then someone will get injured - or worse, die - then there will be more lawsuits. That's when the resort will finally bite the dust."
What you wrote is YOUR opinion. People reading this site may or may not realize that you have no knowledge of what is taking place at MLB. They could base their spending decisions upon your uninformed opinions. I simply wanted to get it out there that what you predict is not a fact.
We take the safety and well being of our guests and employees seriously and will not cut maintenance to save money.
MLB only has 6 lifts in operation at this time. It is very easy to maintain that number of relatively new lifts in the safest of ways and not break a budget.
Sharkbreathe, if it is not business, then what would you call it?
Never mind.
I have to agree with Friend of BS and MLB Employee.
The rest of you can predict what you want, as it's not the history of Moonlight I'm arguing.
The housing bust sure did take it's toll, and the current owners may have made some mistakes, but it is what it is.
The simple fact is, MLB still holds great value, and even though were in a "recession" someone will gobble it up. Lehman is not going to shut the doors, because as MLB Employee said, the value would drop immensely. While they are liquidating, they are not brain-dead. They have the funds to sit on it until it sells.... hopefully....
Oh-oh-oh!
Isn't MLB that place where the upper end of the ski lift has been built on a rock slide???
For now the loose rocks are working in its favor, but you wait: at some point, the ski lift will have to be completely re-done.
THAT will require mega-buck$ - and THAT's when the whole thing will TANK.
You heard it here first, kids.
Mehmnet - They hire professional to work out the details of lift placement and structure development. Are you a geologist? An Engineer? Do you have experience with lift structures? Why are you so concerned with a development that you personally hate? Resorts in Montana aren't leaving anytime soon, so that means you're just picking fights now.
Comment By The Fonz, 9-25-09Didn't Big Sky build their Tram on a glacier that requires cable replacement every decade?
Memmemnent, stuff needs replacing sometimes. They will probably just reinforce the foundation when it becomes unstable. Big deal.
Hah!
As a matter of fact, I AM a geologist!
That Tram station replacement is going to cost mucho dinero.
And it's predicament is at the heart of this whole MLB fiasco: during the boom years, no one gave a rat's A$$ about the geologic integrity underlying a project. Rush-rush-rush, build-build-build.
MLB is just like that other Big Sky geo-disaster where the homes are falling into the ground.
In fact, just you wait, MLB's Sky Tram will end up being the alpine equivalent of the Titanic.
Why are you so adamant in your denial of the facts?
Sorry, but "The Emperor has no clothes" and "There's an 800 lb. gorilla in the living room".
MLB is set to go the way of Farrah Fawcett, Michael Jackson and Patrick Swayze.
A year from now I predict you will be working at another job.
So why not start get your resume in order now instead of lollygagging here on this website?
"Isn't MLB that place where the upper end of the ski lift has been built on a rock slide???"
Which lift? 6-shooter, no.
Lone Tree? no.
Headwaters? no.
More confused ignorance. You are a geologist, that is great. You demonstrate little actual knowledge of what you are claiming.
If you are talking about the Big Sky tram, that is one thing. What is the MLB Sky Tram???? no such thing exists.
Back to the Big Sky tram, it was built on a rock glacier in 1995. It was designed to have a useful life span and to move with the glacier. The haul rope was replaced last year. I ride the machine near every week the winter. I am confident in the abilities of the Boyne maintantence crews to safely service and operate that machine.
You are getting silly now and I have better things to do than to help in your education.
Until the world falls apart, I will continue enjoying taking trips from northwestern Montana to Big Sky as often as possible. I also enjoy Whitefish, Fernie, Snowbowl, Silver, Lookout, Lost Trail, Discovery, Turner, Blacktail, Bridger, Showdown...they are all in fact, amazing in their own ways. Just happy to be out enjoying developed recreation in our wonderful state and nearby Idaho.
Anyone concerned in resort development, I encourage you to join the resort's planning boards so you can actively have a say in what you are passionate about.
Hey!...Heard the Moonlighters lit out of Big Sky in their Esclades to chase a "hot" prospect down over there in Warm Springs! Whoa!
Comment By rs, 9-26-09LOL@Moonlight Comedy Show.Com
LOL@Employees in Foreclosure.Com
LOL@Greed and Stupidity.Com
You are a class act RS.
Best of luck to you.
I wonder if any assets were transferred out of the resort before Lehman filed suit? If I was going down, could I transfer assets to my kids and friends or to my lawyer--that's what I would do--I'd shovel as much money as fast as I could and hide it. I'd get a local bozeman lawyer to do it for me--yes sir great plan, but it's just me thinking out load. I am sure nobody would really do this. Would they? What about another 80 million in mezzanine financing that remains unmentioned? Is the look-back period two years? I wonder if road, water, wastewater, and other operating reserves are sill there? If I was going under, I would loot that money first because most people would never look for it. Should the public service commission be looking into that issue? What will the proud owners of those million dollar spec homes do if no sewage treatment is available? Or if no water is available? What about safety? Will my kids be safe on the chair lifts? Its an easy call this year. Until everything stabilizes, ski at Bridger Bowl I say.
Comment By MLB employee, 9-29-09More hot air eh RS?
Ya think that MLB has been operating without any supervision from Lehman Bros this past year? If so you really are misguided.
Treeline Springs is completely funtional, funded and operating as always. (Waste water treatment & culinary H2o).
What about safety?
Our Lift Maint crew is the same in numbers and personnel as last year, and the year before that.
The Ski Patrol remains the same, all the programs people have come to expect at MLB, including MBRT remain the same.
You write, "If I was going down, could I transfer assets to my kids and friends or to my lawyer--that's what I would do--I'd shovel as much money as fast as I could and hide it. I'd get a local bozeman lawyer to do it for me--yes sir great plan, but it's just me thinking out load."
Load is right.
"I would loot that money first because most people would never look for it."
Maybe that is due to your lack of scruples, but that is just me, thinking out loud.
"Its an easy call this year. Until everything stabilizes, ski at Bridger Bowl I say."
Wonderful. I encourage you ski at Bridger Bowl this year. They are a fine area and I have many good friends who work there, they will be happy to have such a fine example of humanity at their area.
Again, you are a class act. And again, good luck to you and your family.
Why is everybody so quick to assume the worst? People like that are truly sad. As far as I'm aware, this is just a transfer of ownership. All operations will continue as normal.
Why would any business risk operating without the proper maintenance/ safety inspections? That is not cost-effective.
But... What do I know...
No....ski the best...ski Big Sky and be grateful that it's still #1. Maybe after 60+ years in the SKI BUSINESS critics should recognize and credit Boyne USA with a survivor's instinct in the difficult business climate of the ski world...."fake 'til ya make it" didn't work for Moonlight and it won't work for Spanish Peaks.....tag! SP!..........You're it!
Comment By The Fonz, 10-01-09Big Sky is the best. But, if you want great skiing at an affordable price, Moonlight's your ticket!
Wait and see, Moonlights not going nowhere... ya heard it here first!
MLB Employee: It sure would be nice to see you guys pay your bills. You talk about a "class act"? Your management team are all dreamers. Now they are dreamers with no money. Maybe sell that ranch and mansion down by the Madison and pay everybody. You want credibility and respect? Start by paying, hmmmm lets see....I know, Sime Construction their $460,000 dollars. You think I am a bad person for holding the opinion you guys are deadbeats and dicks? I think you are the confused one.
Is there a law that we all have to love moonlight people? Let me know where I can look that one up.
I think at this point it has nothing to do with whether or not Moonlight management wants to pay off those bills. Lehman is pulling those strings, and can pay or not pay any remaining debt as they wish. I would imagine if Moonlight had their way, they would have paid those bills long ago, but now Lehman is getting stingy...
Comment By susan, 10-02-09It's all about the economy, the economy, the economy.
MLB will no doubt survive but it may have to become public like BB. That may not happen or happen soon if at all but what must happen is what happened at YC--the guys who took the big risks should take the big losses. They would have taken the big gains without blinking an eye or sharing it with anyone. They shouldn't share the losses with anyone.
The guys who put their blood, sweat and tears into improving the property must be paid just as the YC creditors' committee in bankruptcy has paid the local contractors.
Lehman is turning a blind eye to the locals, making them hire attorneys and incur unnecessary litigation expenses when it should be negotiating with them to pay them. In the legal field, this is known as determining "priorities." Sime, Williams, all the many others with construction liens are prior to and superior to Lehman. (Sime, by the way, is a Bozeman company--not a Billings company.) It's time for Lehman to recognize that. The rest of them are stuck with the reality of the economy, as they should be.
I meant to add that it is time for Lehman to pay off the local lien holders? Lehman, are you out there anywhere?
Comment By rs, 10-03-09Moonlight let those contracts not Lehman Bros. Moonlight borrowed heavily on the simple (minded) assumption that real estate values had nowhere to go but up. Why in god's name would any rational being think an already bankrupt Lehman is obligated to pour even more money into this venture? Is it because they are a bad bank and loaned the poor innocent and unsuspecting Moonlight people too much money? My problem with Moonlight is that they want to blame everyone and everything else for the huge mess they are in. Its Lehman, its the economy, its any excuse except the truth--that they bet the farm with borrowed money and lost big time. And even though the personal assets of the management are likely ample enough to pay off these poor contractors, they won't do it. They will hide behind the business veil, behind lawyers, behind Lehman, behind anything they can find with the only objective being to save their own ass.
Comment By RU GREEN, 10-04-09Take it to the bank that Moonlight will end up just like Tamarack in Idaho--shuttered and dismantled. Tamarack is currently trying to borrow 7.9mil from a scam Mexican Loan shark at 17%+ interest just to operate the lifts so that homes values can be preserved. The principals and owners of Tamarack have dozens of multi-million dollar homes and chalets while the 60+lien holders are not paid. Hard working business owners have been crushed by the lies of these failed resorts. They have not been paid and will never be paid and their families are crushed by the weight of the lies of developers. Moonlight owners and employees are delusional in thinking that they are not headed for the same fate as Tamarack. These resorts fail in their original promise of being environmental and/or financially feasible. Wake up Big Sky--Moonlight developers aren't out to do the right thing--they're want big bucks, big egos and another chalet to store their wine collections. These resorts are nothing but an homage to the delusional greed of megalomaniacs. These resorts are built on lies and their legacy is a flotsam of broken land and ruined communities.
Comment By fenske, 10-04-09Pretty bold predictions Green.
It took 18 months for the Y/C debacle to settle out. This too will take time.
Guess we will just have to wait and see.
RS, does that S stand for Sime?
It appears that some have concluded that the Moonlight folks (the developers) were the only ones driven by greed. The Lehmans, the Credit Suisses (the banks/investors) were equally driven by greed and assumed the risks that the developments would succeed or fail.
Lehman wants to take over the resort because it thinks it can make it more profitable than Lee Poole. (Another risk voluntarily assumed--now it wants to be the developer and the banker). Lehman should only be allowed to do so AFTER it pays those whose interests have priority as a matter of law: the lien holders.
BTW, there is no executive or other person associated with Sime Construction who has the initials "RS."
Thanks Susan. So why do you suppose RS is so fired up about Sime not being paid?
Perhaps Sime and Moonlight Basin already have an agreement and both sides are comfortable with that? At any rate, I doubt the owners of any company would be too thrilled to have some anon. poster beating the drum on a local website on their behalf.
I want to ski the Headwaters this winter.
And I do like your idea that if Lehman does indeed take over Moonlight Basin, their first order of business is to pay off all accounts, 100 cents on the dollar and then they may begin to do whatever it is they will do.
Lots of interesting commtents here, as a newcomer employee to MLB I sure hope that they continue to operate. Working in a place as beautiful as this is surely something I won't take for granted. I truly doubt that this place will go under anytime soon, there have been offers, but Lehman refuses to sell, which to me means that the company must hold some value to this property, and knows the true potential. BOTTOM LINE: The economy always goes through swings, look at the markets for the past 70 years. The housing market WILL go up, people WILL start buying again. A company as large as lehman surely has some smart people working for them, and if they are refusing offers, they know that this place could be worth 10 times the amount that it was built for. It's just a matter of sitting on it until the housing market goes back up again, which it will, guaranteed :-)
Comment By rs, 10-20-09RU Green, you've got that right. Silly dreams by delusional people perpetuated by borrowed money..... Eventually, a normal and sensible economy will return; and the players will be educated competent and stable.
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