Animal Encounters
Mountain Lion Snatches Dog, Still on the Prowl in Bitterroot
By Jonathan Weber, 12-20-09
The Missoulian reported today that a mountain lion snatched a dog off a porch in the Bear Creek area of the Bitterroot, and chased a horse to death in the same area. A neighbor tried to track the lion with dogs, but then someone shot the dogs. A strange story, I’m sure we’ll hear more about it soon.
[End of article]Sure it did. I'll bet that old catamount just strolled right up on that fellers porch and grabbed up a peaceful sleepy old pup...
Comment By dave, 12-20-09are you now the canine reporter jonathan?
whats a portch? anyway
dave, thanks for spotting that typo! yea, i guess i am getting carried away with the dog stories, but...
Comment By Mickey Garcia, 12-20-09This western plot happens so often from the Pacific Ocean to the Mississippi it becomes monotonous but still slightly amusing. Greenie Weenies move out to the Western Exurbs and Suburbs demanding that the environment be respected, wildlife be protected ,sprawl absolutely be stopped etc. And so when any of the native wildlife try to move in with the neighbors then all hell and hysteria breaks loose. Doesn't matter if its a Puma, Moose, Raccoon, Griz, Black Bear, Elk, Coyote, Porcupine, Deer etc., Call 911! Annie get yer Gun! The big one! Why haven't the police arrived yet! Call the Reporter! Front page news! My pet dog was nothing but a snack for that blood thirsty monster! Too funny!!
Comment By Michael Babcock, 12-21-09I keep thinking the cold winters and the fire seasons and the ferocious critters that lay in wait for the unsuspecting newcomers will eventually drive out the riff-raff. I'm still hoping. Those big furry sexy predators are really cool from the glossy pages of magazines.
Comment By Jill Kuraitis, 12-21-09Dog reporters are in great demand. Jonathan could grab any job he wanted and make $300K a year, but the need is greatest at NewWest.Net.
Comment By Tanbiker2, 12-21-09Call us back when the mountain lion grabs one of their grandchildren off the deck. That will be newsworthy, especially since it's never happened before.
Comment By the real mike, 12-22-09I can see it all now. The trappers who routinely injure dogs with traps carelessly placed in pursuit of their ridiculous and deranged hobby will now feign concern and cry crocodile tears over this pooch being snatched from the porch and use this and similar incidents as a rallying cry to run out and set more traps to catch the lion.
Comment By JetMech, 12-22-09Tanbiker2, your memory must be pretty short or you are a newcomer to Western Montana. Only a few short years ago a kids was snatched off his bike by a cougar and his brother beat the cougar with a stick to get it to release his sibling. It even made national news.
the real mike,
Trappers probably will do just that and dog owners will continue taking their dogs, unleashed, into these posted areas just to see if they'll get into a trap. Follow the law and your dogs won't get hurt. I find it rather cruel that people whose dogs wind up in traps get upset at the trap owners rather then themselves for not observing the Posted warnings or the leash laws.
And, Jay,
Have you changed your name from Jeddidiah Redman?
the real Mike
You really need to stop running your mouth on the computer and educate yourself. Trappers can not trap for lions. If an accidental catch of a lion happens we release the lions. You goofballs have at it but one day you will realize the need for a balance between predators and prey. It's just a shame it will take deer and elk numbers to be pretty much non existant before you open your eyes to the big picture. I have trapped 34 coyotes out of a 900 acre ranch in the last 2 years. Before I started to trap it you could not find a fawn (that is a deer for you dummies) that made it through to the fall hunting season. This year on that 900 acres piece of ground I saw 11 faws that made it to the fall hunting season. All wildlife has benefitted from my trapping efforts on that 1 piece of ground. Yes even the rabbits are making a come back
So let me just ask you guys a question..........What have you guys done as a conservation effort lately?? It always amazes me that these people who have never spent a dime on conservation all of a sudden what to tell us how to run our conservation efforts.
This "New West". Should be called trapper bashing. I have read two stories on here.( well writen i will add) The blogs on both are being geared towards beating up trappers. Now the last one got shut down because Mr.Weber didn't like it. So I will try again. It is a terrible thing when a pet gets sick, ran over, dies of old age, gets caught in a trap or drug off his porch by a crazy moutain lion. There is a certain amount of pitty or remorse that will go out to that animal and its family. The trapping thing is a very touchy issue here in Montana. Now on the last blog things such as "cavemen, knuckle draggers and uneducated" were a few things written as descriptions for trappers. Mr.Weber didn't close that blog then. He gave a few of us trappers a chance to respond. When we stated that we didn't believe his story he then shut it down after he got his last word in. I wonder why you let ANTIS say what they will as long as they agree with your story giving them a stage to push thier ideas on your blogs. If you are against it all Mr.weber than come out and say so. Your local advertisement sponsers may not like that. I am sure there are a few trappers and hunters there. Like PJ said educate your self on it all instead of blindly allowing your Blogs turn into ANTI trapping and hunting blogs.
Comment By Michael Babcock, 12-22-09Write on! to those advocating a prey-predator balance. It's real science.
Comment By PJ, 12-22-09Nothing scientific about it Michael. Do you realize why Ducks Unlimited was started? To preserve wetlands and to CREATE a balance between predator and prey. That included trapping out areas that had an over abundance of fox and coons. Without the proper balance the predator would eliminate any up and coming birds by eating their eggs. Should I mention that young birds not yet able to fly make an easy meal?? WITHOUT reducing the number of predators waterfowl and pheasants would have some pretty low numbers right now.
Comment By John Prentice, 12-22-09What a CROCK! Trapping is here to stay in the
West. The problem arises when folks move into the predators domain,bringing along there non-native pets;ie Dogs and Cats,which become Sushi for the Mt.Lions and Coyotes. Those predators need to eat also. Long live the guys who trap.
I think I understand that you misunderstand me PJ: This shows how emotional this whole thing is: I favor trapping, I favor scientific applications in hunting and trapping and fishing regulations. I hunt, I fish and if I had the time I would trap. I belong to a number of the hunter managed conservation organizations such as PF, RMEF, DU at one time and on and one. Anybody who can read and bothers to understand knows what hunters, anglers and trappers have done for wildlife in this country. Print and e forums are single dimensional and lend themselves to misunderstanding.
Comment By the real mike, 12-22-09This is too easy.
Comment By JasonB, 12-22-09Well so what a lion got a dog, let me ask who was there first? I do not own any land in Montana but my in laws do and what they were told by fish wildlfe and parks is that if there is an unleashed dog on there property they have the right to shoot it. The thing that pisses me off more than anything is TRESSPASSERS, stupid people that don't think they need permission to walk anywhere they want with there unruley pets, then they whine about there stupid dog getting caught in a trap. I have owned and ran many bird dogs over the years and because I am a responsable hunter and obtain permission before I hunt NONE of my dogs have ever been caught in a trap or even shoot at. People need to get there heads out of there asses long enough to catch a fresh breath and realize that the only reaso why we have the wildlife today that is out there is BECAUSE of hunters and trappers that have taken action to CONSERVE our species.
Comment By the real mike, 12-22-09Yep, there's nothing worse than those stupid people who are "TRESSPASSERS" and get on "there property" without no permission. In all seriousness, were future "hunters and trappers" somehow exempt from truancy laws when they were in grade school?
Comment By yukonjeff, 12-23-09when someday these lions pull a small child off a porch ,it will be trappers and hunters called to save the day,right now they are the only thing stoping it, by keeping there number in line,once the hunters and trappers are gone,there will be no more balance of nature and then watch what happens.this will be common,like it is in many ereas,already.here in Alaska we have wolves taking pets off there leash while they are being walked,by there owners,in the citys!..good luck...you will all need it soon.
Comment By Patrick J, 12-23-09I just finally had the time to read the whole story on this lion issue and the dogs being shot as reported in the Missoulian. I have hunted with the dog's owner Bob on several occasions. I can honestly tell you that his hounds are like his children. They sleep on his couch and get the "royal" treatment. Bob did not and never would intentialy tresspass on anyones land. These dogs were just doing what they were bread to do. God help that guy who shot his dogs cause I know several houndsmen that know and like Bob. That is a pretty tight nit community he is dealing with.
As for you "the real Mike" I will answer your question about truancy in school....I missed 68 days of school my senior year because I was either out hunting, fishing or trapping. Does that make you any smarter than me?? What it tells me is that I might just know a little more about hunting, trapping and fishing than you could learn in 3 lifetimes. So who should the general public listen to??...A guy who grew up in the outdoors or some kid that has a smart ass answer to everything that gets posted. Give us something with some substance "the real Mike". Prove to us that your reading and writing skills are not limited to See Spot Run. Would pictures help you out?
Johnathan
On one hand I commend you for letting everyones comments be seen but on the other I call you a coward for closing off that trapping article when it looked like your chips were down. When are you going to start being a journalist and leave your true motives behind? You might just get some sort of an education from us that spend our lives out in the field. What do ya say Johnathan??.....you got the guts to just sit back and watch this one transpire. Let's just see what becomes of it
why did you shut the other post down?
We would rather inform you than argue with you. What we are telling you are not lies. We want you to know the truth so that you can understand what is going on and who is really at fault. Like the dog article. Why wasn't the dog on a leash? Why were you trespassing? If you break a law expect to have something happen. That is why they make laws in the first place,to keep you and your dog away from danger. Follow the laws that are in effect now and there wouldn't be any need for new laws. That simple
So regarding dog in a trap, I will say for the umpteenth time, if anyone actually cares about what actually happened, I was not trespassing, there is no leash law in that area, and the trap was illegal. Let me repeat: walking dog on public easement, legal. Setting untagged trap on public easement, illegal. How complicated is that?
I shut down the other thread because it is very tiresome to try and have a conversation with people who insist on calling you a liar and won't acknowledge any fact that gets in the way of their position. Especially when such people don't even have the courtesy to use their names.
If this thread goes down that road, I will close this one as well.
I just thought I would comment on the lion picture that goes with the story. I would bet that picture would not exist without a houndsman. Sure that could be a zoo cat photo but I have studied it and don't think it is. It looks to me like that cat is bayed up on the cliffs. The ears laid back tell me he is pissed and if you look at his focus points it looks like 3 dogs. Eyes are on one dog and if you follow the path that the ears are picking up sound from it looks like 2 more dogs.
Comment By JasonB, 12-24-09Here is a little educational video for those that think trapping harms the animal.
http://www.fntpost.com/index.php?page=91
Jason B: Great video on trapping. Thanks. I accept trapping in Montana and the rest of the nation but I didn't realize how the leghold trap works. Thanks.
Comment By JasonB, 12-24-09Thanks Michael, but I saw this video on a forum that I belong to and even though I have been a trapper in the past and want to get into it again this is the most informative video I have seen. I get so sick and tired of stupid people that show a shattered stick in a trap and I have caught enough animals over the years to know that a trapper holds the animals life not the trap. The only time I have had a dead animal in a trap is when it is set to do just that and then it is about business and management. Trapping is not just a hobby it is a heritage and a very effective management tool as shown with the river otter relocation program. Tresspassing is such a problem in Montana that if people think that banning trapping on public lands will stop there pets from being caught they are then living in a dream world because the New Montanans are to ignorant to learn what is public and private. And for Gods sake if your pet is caught in a leg hold trap just calm the animal down and open the trap, the animal will be shaken but not hurt. REMEMBER they are not people.
Comment By aaron manley, 12-24-09Johnathan what did you think of the video?
Comment By jw, 12-24-09I am not a trapper but i do enjoy the outdoors and the animals there and without trapping of predators and other furbearers i wouldn't be able too. Trapping is critical in the control of all the animals in the area the science is there and cant be refuted. Many animals are trapped relocated and released with foot hold traps without any damage so the myth that they kill or injure is far misplaced. Also you need to remember the above that Mnt lions are not trapped, w/o other means to control their #'s then the kills will continue and if you dont believe they will take a kid or dog of a porch you are in a dream world, that is an easy meal for them. when their #'s get high they compete for food and start looking to other means of food and easy becomes the norm. Trappers and hunters do more for wildlife then the general public will ever do, we want them to be there for our kids to see and when we see people try to stop us it makes me wonder if they know the suffering it will cause the animals if we didnt control them. Mother natures way is much more cruel than a hunter or a trap. ie grange is mother natures way of controling the coyote population when there are too many simply put they loose a lot of there hair and freeze to death, a trappers death is much quicker. Look to Washington and California since they stopped allowing dogs for cougars the populations have gone out of whack killing deer and elk off in large #'s and pet and human incedents have climbed significantly, and i will bet there are just as many dying as before its just all done by the state now on our dime rather than the hunters dime and his money would have gone to help all wildlife in the area as well not just the cat he hunts. People on the fence of these issues please inform yiourselfs before listening to the lies these people propagate they ussually come from big cities and have no clue about conservation, further more they make a visit to the country and don't see a bear, cat, or wolve, well duh cause if you studied a little you would know they are all nacturnal animals who dont do a lot during daylight, they are all great at hiding and tend to slip away unseen when approached. there #'s are a lot higher then many would know or like to admit.
Comment By Darkrider1463, 12-25-09Mickey Garcia
your a right wing crazy. Your prjudiced and you obviously hate yourslef for projecting some much hate onto others. Why do you think the rest of MT, the USA and the world laughs at you idiots; it's not becuase your smart.
Mickey Garcia, let me guess you must be from California. It seems Montana has been under invasion by California for some time now and they want it to be the New California.
Comment By Mickey Garcia, 12-25-09D & JB, you two lunatics have your threads confused.
Comment By aaron manley, 12-25-09Mickey Garcia,
It seems as though you are on here to do nothing more than argue. I do not understand people like you. This is a serious matter and you just want to argue about it? You don't post facts or any thing. You go off of whatever it is you can think of at the time. People like you are why things like this happen. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT so why keep posting here? Oh and if you do live in california i would be glad to show you how humane hunting and trapping really is. I am in modesto,ca and would be more than glad to show you
This article is about a Mountain Lion and a Dog in the Bitterroot Valley of Montana. I'm not involved in the Trapping / Anti-Trapping debate. Maybe you're mentally retarded, drunk, or just trying to pick a fight.
Comment By Patrick J, 12-25-09OK so let's talk lions then.
Mickey just tell the masses here where your knowledge of lions and houndsmen stands. I am curious myself because from what I have seen lately it is the people who know nothing about a subject that want be the center of attention by throwing out acusations that are FAR from the truth.
Just how many lion encounters have you had Mickey? Better yet have you ever seen 2 or 3 hounds work together to sort out lion tracks and keep each other on the correct trail?
I can tell you that it is music plain and simple. Once you understand the chase you just sit back on the hill with no one around and close your eyes. Each bay from each hound tells the story when you are in tune with how your dogs work. It is one of the most pure forms of feeling free there is. Then comes the icing on the cake........you get to take pictures and enjoy a true hunter face to face. I have hunted just about every animal in the states and I can tell you that a mountain lion commands respect from first hand knowledge
You have me mistaken for someone else apparently. I haven't been arguing against trapping or hunting with hounds on this thread. As for pussy cats? I've worked in the woods in most of the western states and Alaska and I usually go prepared to kill any critter that attacks me. Ive run into a few pussy cats but never needed to defend my self. Ive run into a hell of a lot more bears but only once have I had to dispatch one in self defense.
Comment By Johnny Thundersockeye, 12-26-09Wow good to see New West hasnt changed much since the last time I looked -about 3 months ago.Still lots of bored, ,drunk and angry peoople spewing lots of nonsensical gibberrish-mixed in with occasional flashes of brilliance and sensible opinions.Mickey I understand your confusion as to why those 2 hot heads seemed to so vorasciously attack you for some mispercieved infraction of the hound hunting lions as art (code of deep philosophical primitive rhythm thought.)
Way to spread the Christmas Cheer Darkrider and Jb.I myself am stuck in a Wyoming motel room waiting for a blizzard to diminish enough that I may progress eastward.Thank God for the beautiful naked woman and big bottle of Vicodin ,by my side!
Thus I wish even belligerent drunks and every body MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
Whoever shot that hunters hounds up Bear creek is a total Douchebag!!He had gotten permission from most of the local landowners which is a tough thing to do within that tangled up zig -zag of urban interface haphazard development-And the cougars ,just like wolves need to be driven back westward in to the Selway by hunting or hounds or any means necessary!Hunting with hounds does indeed seem like an art form-thats dying out unfortunately.Hunting cougars with hounds is good for cougars.
Wow a RWCer in the bitteroot and a drunk guy in a hotel room in Wyoming.
I was responding to his off topic drunken rants.
You right wing crazies love to divert off topic and make personal attacks and the when you get a taste of your own medicine you whine and accuse others of your own poor behavior.
Being a hypocrite is nothing new to RWC'ers
You guys are the reason the rest of the USA and the world laughs at WY and MT.
Mickey Garcia- "Greenie Weenies move out to the Western Exurbs and Suburbs demanding that the environment be respected, wildlife be protected ,sprawl absolutely be stopped etc."
WTF are u talking about you prejudiced RWC.
I'm talking about your ignorance and hypocrisy, dummy.
Comment By Bernard Shakey, 12-26-09Wow you must constantly be trolling this site I just posted my comment. Your just a name-calling, loser bully who obvioulsy has no life.
You lump all people into categories thats called prejudism.
You dont know the opinos/beleifs of every1 moving out west, that's why your CRAZY.
Also how would you know how I feel about this issue considering I have'nt posted anything related to the article, I have merely posted in response to your off topic, prejudiced and lunatic attacks on everyone you view as your "enemy"
Mickey your batsh*t CRAZY.
You're tripping dude. You need to modify your drug mixture.
Comment By Bernard Shakey, 12-26-09You just want to have the last word. No matter how irrelevant, cruel or outlandish.
You beleive you know everyones beliefs and opinions, and thats why I beleive your CRAZY and probally need a drug mixture to stabilize your chemical imbalance.
Mickey- now your just slinging insults your a BULLY. Hah.
Comment By Bernard Shakey, 12-26-09Mountain Lion hunting; Yes.
Hound hunting; No.
hey mickey, i told you so
Comment By Dewey, 12-27-09The Cougar ranges from South America to sub-Arctic North America, all across the continents. But by far the greatest population and density of the big cat is in Wyoming. The critter is extremely secretive, for the most part. Most people don't know or appreciate how many Cougars live in proximity to them.
My town of Cody WY is often visited by Cougars, who follow the 200+ mule deer that have moved into town. Just last week a Cougar was spotted across the street from the shopping center and big banks on top of the hill near a busy highway , in broad daylight no less. It probably had a deer kill stashed nearby. It eluded the game wardens and all who tried to secure it. The Cougar knew its way around.
We have a couple of 'incidents' every year in Cody involving Cougars. What folks don't realize is the number of times the Cougars encroach into the city , without being seen at all. For each of those known incidents of a Cougar sighting, there are X number of incursions by unseen cats. They're good.
What I can tell you about Cougars is what you don't know about them is more important than what you do know.
The last outfitter I worked for was a top tier Bighorn sheep guide. He provided a good bread and butter high country Elk hunt, but his avocation adn greatest enthusiasm was for so-called "Lion Hunting" with dogs in winter. ( By the way , there is no such thing as a Mountain LION...that's bad English and misapplied taxonomy...Cougars are not Lions. The only Lions in the New World are fossils . The last Lion to walk in Wyoming did so during the Pleistocene). I had to care for this outfitter's 17 "Lion Hounds" , but they were not pets. They weren't couch cuddlers and kid dogs...they were primitive semi-domesticated beasts bred and kept for one chore: chase the big cat as a pack, as long and far as necessary.
My point is Cougar hunting with a pack of dogs, and pursuit by snowmobiles, may be sport to some but after being around the dedicated thralls of northwest Wyoming "Lion Hunters" for a couple seasons, I condemn the taking of Cougars by hound and long hot pursuit to be mostly barbaric blood sport. And when it comes time to kill the cat, how hard is it to shoot a cat in a tree at the bay of hounds? It was usually done with a pistol, cavalierly. Some trophy. Chase a cat for 30 miles with an internal combustion contraption , till it's exhausted, then assassinate it point blank.
After being immersed in this culture and observing the cougar cult at work, I'll come down on the side of the Cougar any day. What the Bitterroot cougar did to that unfortunate folks' domestic pet dog is small payback to what packs of bloodthirsty hounds have done to innumerable cougars across the West for decades. I'm sorry the Bear Creek folks lost their dog, bit dispassionately I have to say they paid the price for the transgressions of so many other usurpers of cougars with canines, sadly.
Occasionally we have stories here in NW Wyoming about some yahoo Cougar hunter making a public stink about losing one or more of his precious hounds to our established Wolf population. So be it. I'm rooting for the wolf who levels the playing field for his comrade in arms the Cougar by taking out the encroaching hounds, and thereby injecting some serious humility into the redneck cat hunter's ossified cranium . I wished that happened more often, especially since Wyoming doesn't have a legal wolf hunt ( yet). Go Cats. Go Wolves.
You black and tan hounds should go back to Tennessee.
I also believe there's a mighty lesson to be learned from the Cougar. The big cat will stalk and take down a human being. That keeps us humble Hominids in our place on the foodchain. Where I live, when we walk in the woods without Mr. Smith and Wesson , we're 7th down the Top Tier Predator list , not the Supreme Masters of fauna, fish, and fowl. To believe so only reveals arrogance, a very bad trait.
And as far as this sensational story about the Bitterroot cat taking a family pet from the back porch, it is just that , sensationalism.
All the other Cougars out there, they didn't make the news that day. And that's a good thing.
As someone who does not condone the barbaric treatment of any wildlife, I suppose I should clarify my position on hound hunting. First of all Dewey, I would agree that the use of snowmobiles for any supposed fair chase hunting is barbaric and not much of a sport. But in the case of lions, lets face it they can hardly even be hunted without hounds. I suppose you can lure them in with a predator call, but you would probably be much more likely to snag a coyote, bear or wolf with such a device.
Since this is supposedly a free country, I am uncomfortable with imposing restrictions on others lifestyle choices. There are generations of folks who truely enjoy hound hunting cougars. Though it is not something I participate in myself, I think there are way too many restrictions being placed upon folks who have used the woods for various traditional pursuits. So by that principle alone I have a problem with banning something that someone else considers an artform, whether or not some consider it cruel.
Specifically relating to the Bearcreek area, I do believe chasing cougars westward away from the Bitterroots urban interface, would be beneficial to both cougars and humans. Anything we can do to drive these top tier predators back into the Selway will cut down on these ugly urban interface pet incidents. Thus I believe hound hunting could instill some healthy fear or annoyance into these cats brainwaves whereby they might be a little more likely to stay further back in the wilderness where they need to be.
I can see how in less populated areas, where there is less potential for conflict with humans, it seems a bit barbaric and not as necessary or beneficial to the cougars. So I do understand and respect your point Dewey, and it sounds like you are more knowledgable about the subject than myself. It's just the Bitterroots urban interface, where Bearcreek is located has really become a recipe for these types of predator VS. human disasters and I personally feel anything that can be done to get these predators to fear us humans again will be beneficial to both.
I can't believe I am going to say this Johnny but I am going to have to respect your opinion. I agree that it is alright to have your own views on a subject yet not push them on someone else.
The only problem I have with your statement is you are not going to push mountain lions further West into the Selway wilderness. Lions go where the deer and elk are and right now that happens to be in the foothills. You can chase them back all you want but they return every time to where the food source is. Wolves have been pushing the deer and elk further from their mountain wintering ranges for years creating the next set of challenges. It was people pushing their views on wolves onto the rest of us that started the next generation of problems.
In the past I have always had to go 5 to 10 miles up in the mountains to find a lion track this time of year. In the last 2 weeks I have run 4 lions. The chase on ALL 4 has started from a residential area....1 up Marshal Mountain road, 1 up Blue Mountain Road, 1 up Miller Creek and 1 up Deer Creek.
So let me just leave you with a question.....Who is to blame?? Is it the wolves for pushing deer and elk into residential areas or the lions for hunting them there or the hunters for pursuing them or the people who chose to build there house in the woods? The problem is when you point a finger there are always 3 pointing back at you.........just try it and you'll get it
Wow, Patrick J - that is really interesting and seems to reveal quite a prevalent trend. Marshall, Miller creek, Deer creek and Blue mountain all in a couple of weeks would seem to indicate there's a cougar in every urban interface canyon in every direction -and as you pointed out substantially closer to town than they used to be at this time of the year. I also thought about the fact that you can't necessarily steer a cougar directly westward just by choice. I thought about that after I wrote it - how can you guarantee its not just going to head eastward toward the river and even more populated areas once the hounds are released and the hunt begins?
I suppose in the case of those Bitterroot canyons I was visualizing the typical southfacing cliffscapes that are found on the north sides of just about every one of those drainages - and thinking the cougars would habitually head for the cliffs sort of northwesterly each time to escape the hounds with their superior climbing skills.
I totally see your point and respect the constructive criticism as I am passionate about pretty much any forest or wildlife management problems that there are currently such a preponderance of and trying to solve the ecological puzzle pieces therein. My thought was also that by using hounds to chase cougars we could instill a conditioned response of fear or annoyance similar to the way Karelian bear dogs are used for griz.
What you are describing definetely seems to be yet more solid field observed evidence that throwing the wildcard of wolves back into our ecosystems is in some cases affecting wildlife behavior, from ungulates to predators in ways that were not necessarily anticipated and are still somewhat unpredictable.
Thus the solutions are, I think, as of yet, somewhat difficult and challenging to determine, especially given how much the population and landscape dynamics have changed since the 90 years or so ago when canis lupis was prevelent and we weren't! But Iam still a Diehard romantic optomist about a lot of things or at least try to be ,and so I want to believe that after a fairly short while-in time through more study and observation as well as stakeholder participation we rural Weterners will indeed find a way for the Multiple Use Sustainable Yield concept to become a realized truth rather than the unbalanced myth it thus far has been.
I truly think by God's grace we can have it all - sustainable resource extraction, pristine protected wilderness, safer urban interfaces that are less catastrophically wildfire prone, enough winter range and connected habitat corridors through conservation easements that will still provide opportunities for traditional pursuits like ranching as well as world class recreational opportunities. A tall order indeed, but hopefully realistically achievable through the intrinsic involvement of people like you and me who like to exchange information and opinions about such issues and then brainstorm to conceptualize solutions to these rather difficult ecological quagmires (giggiddy giggiddy...ha..ha).
Hope to see you at the collaboration cocktail table and thanks for respectful thought provolking, constructivly critical questioning.
I think the best bet for all of us is to stand behind organizations like the Natures Conservancy and others. They spend donated money wisely to buy up land around housing developments to keep those wildlife corridors open.
Just today Fish and Game sent us up Miller Creek to harvest a problem lion. This lion and 1 or 2 others has been killing domestic sheep for 4 or 5 days now. The owner of the sheep didn't look to me like a person that on any other given day would side with me on my hunting and trapping views but because his sheep were laying dead in the pasture he sided with me today. I took the time to explain why the lions were killing his sheep and then had him listen to the dogs work. It was great because the first hound took a deep breath right in front of us and then we heard an almost gurgling noise. I told him that is the dogs way of taking in all of the scent in the track and processing it to figure out which track was the freshest. I told him the exact place the dog would jump the lion and the exact place the lion would tree.......I was correct on both!! If nothing else today I helped an average man and his wife understand the mountain lion and the role of a hound
I'm kinda on the fence about that whole deal. There are houses PILED right down the middle of that wildlife corridor. I guess to me if you want to live in that area you should be aware of the consequences. On the other hand I know for a fact that wolves have pushed deer and elk down to those lower lying areas so the lion has no choice but to follow the food. It just so happens in this case there are way to many lions bottled up in that draw
Dewey-
The densest concentration of cougars in North America is found on Vancouver Island in British Columbia, while in the United States the densest concentration is in the Ventana Wilderness in the Los Padres National Forest, California. Vancouver Isalnd also has the highest rate of attacks on humans due to hound hunting. When hound hunters kill all the "normal cougars" which tend to climb trees when being trailed by hounds. These tree-climbing cougars are all killed. The more agressive cougars that stand their ground and fight the hounds are the one that are surviving. These same agressive cougars are much more likely to attack humans. Hence we the canadians are breeding more dangerous cougars by continuing to hound hunt. Dewey you had some good points but perhaps you should do some actual research before you proclaim that Wyoming has the highest populations of cougars in north america. It's well known the coast ranges harbor far more cougars than the rockies. Also it's never a bad idea to have a firearm on you in the woods but if your packing a smith and wesson everytime you go for a stroll outside your house i'd have to say your just a wee bit paranoid.
If we hunt with hounds then we will continue to isolate agressive traits in cougars like on vancouver island and hence breed a cougar that is more dangerous to man.
Let's herd them all up and put them on a reservation and give them plenty of booze so they will leave us alone!
Isn't that the way its done? We could have a fat cat farm just like the bear park. Be sure to close your windows folks, these are real quick cats! Oh and we could put on a show with the hounds to show everyone how it works with all you hound hunters out there.
While your at it, why not set up a trapping show with conibear traps...that will bring lots of sick wierdos in!!!
WoooWooooooo come to the great state of Montana and see the bloody fun!!!
By the way...WHO'S ENCROACHING ON WHO'S TERRITORY! Remember folks we are animals too!!!
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