opinion: presidency

The Theory Behind Obama’s Appearance with the GOP

Just the whole concept and framing were so cool that it almost didn't matter what he said.

By Sharon Fisher, 1-29-10

I watched a video of President Barack Obama appearing at the GOP House Issues Conference for an hour-long Q&A session, and it just made my little wonkish heart go pitty-pat.

For a few years last decade, I went to graduate school for public administration at Boise State University. Remember high school English, with all the man’s-inhumanity-to-man, Hester-represents-the-Church-of-England symbology stuff? Graduate school is full of that kind of thing, and when you’re done, you swear you’re never going to use it again.

But watching the Obama-GOP interaction today, my fingers were itching to write some sort of turgid, footnoted, Org Theory-heavy, academic paper with all that stuff in it that nobody but wonks would appreciate, because it was just so cool. And, you know, I’m barely going to talk about the content. That hardly mattered to me.

Let’s start with the symbology of the event itself. Daniel entering the lion’s den. He accepted an invitation to come on their turf and, reportedly, were “itching to quiz the president and present their policy ideas.” And, you know, typically the guy who owns the mike is the guy in charge.

However, Obama did two things that put him in control. First, it was the placement. There he was at the front of the room. People were called on, and he responded to them individually. This wasn’t a Tea Party free-for-all. He listened until they were finished with their questions—he let them vent, he made them feel heard—and then he answered them, one at a time. He maintained control.

Second, Obama had it recorded and aired on television. One of the things we studied in public administration school was when to expand a discussion to other people, and when not to do so. People who are think they’re winning the debate tend to want to keep the discussion in, while people who are losing, who think they’ll get more support outside, want to expand it. Obama asked to expand it, the GOP went along. Many of the commenters on the event talked about what a great job Obama had done, to the extent that some Republicans reportedly regretted their decision. “It was a mistake that we allowed the cameras to roll like that. We should not have done that,” Luke Russert reported one of them as saying.

The appearance was also a good idea on a communications theory level. Democrats and Republicans both have been addressing each other in the media, but addressing each other as icons or symbols, not as people. And there Obama was, “Mr. President,” in the room with them, and natural decorum took over, as well as people’s inhibitions about saying something to somebody’s face that they’d say to a camera or to a reporter. This was no longer cardboard cutouts of The President and The Opposition, but actual people talking to each other—and, in some cases, opposition or no, delighted by getting his autograph.

Both sides also went to some effort to establish rapport by talking about things they had in common. Obama had something personal to say about nearly every questioner, such as pointing out that he knew one Congressman from Illinois, or another Congressman pointing out that both he and Obama had young children. Pointing out what two people have in common is a great way to establish rapport and make it more likely that the other person will see the value in the first person’s argument. Obama also criticized the media, building rapport with the GOP through use of a common enemy. (It’s okay, Mr. President. I won’t take it personally.)

After that, the content almost didn’t matter, though Obama did a good job there too. He looked for points of agreement, and made them, showing his willingness to hear them. He went meta, pointing out that the way one question was phrased made it not really a question for discussion, but a campaign talking point. He showed that he had been paying attention to their proposals (and, incidentally, blew away the contention that he needed a TelePrompTer to speak in public). And he used fact-based responses to their questions, continuing his call for bipartisan work.

“Again and again, Obama turned the Republicans questions against them — accusing them of obstructing legislation for political purposes and offering solutions that won’t work,” reported Politico.

While there was some pushback from Republicans on the substance of Obama’s remarks, the majority of the media accounts, including some comments by Republicans, praised Obama’s handling of the event.

It will be interesting to see how the mano-a-mano (and womano-a-mano) event changes the tone of the dialogue—and whether it will be repeated.

Watch it for yourself.

[End of article]
Comment By dave, 1-30-10

sharon,,, your wonkish little heart went a pitty pat. that sounds a bit like a john edwards moment.

i thought the exchange went great. neither obama or the repubs were insolent. the discourse was as it should be, pointed, and real. i believe this kind of meeting should occur every couple of weeks. but no need to spend megadollars going to baltimore, i think we have suitable meeting places in DC.

if prez obama couldnt take that little bit of heat then he should of stayed in the illinois statehouse. we will leave all of the softball questions for the mainstream media.

maybe you should relax now and read a couple of chapters of your fave romance novel.

Comment By Mike, 1-30-10

Hi Sharon,

I liked reading your take on the event. I am very much in agreement with you.

Cheers,
Mike

Comment By sharon fisher, 1-30-10

Dave, yes. He treated the GOP with respect. He treated them like adults. He also did it with humor.

And, you know, I think a lot of us could take a lesson from this. Don't demonize our opponents. Talk to them like grownups. Find points where we can agree. Assume the positive, that they *do* want a solution and bipartisan support, and point out actions they're doing that make that harder. Admit areas where we could have acted better. Etc.

(As far as romance novels, I'm reading a novel by Marilyn French, but it's more like a dysromance novel. The closest I come to romance novels is Diana Gabaldon.)

Glad you liked it, Mike.

Comment By Grammar, 1-30-10

Just to pick a nit, the right word is "symbolism", not "symbology."

Comment By sharon fisher, 1-30-10

Well, I used symbology because it means "the study of symbols," which is what we were doing.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-30-10

Obama did a superb job mano-a-obstructionists. But the Repulsicans haven't changed their minds one bit. They're total ideologues and they mean to destroy Obama whatever it takes, lying, cheating, stealing, they don't care. They're mad as hell because they feel that their majority reign was stolen from them by Obama. Kind of like the Allies stole the "thousand year Third Reich" from Hitler.

Comment By dave, 1-30-10

come on mickey,

it was good debate all around. from both sides. your comment in ridiculous.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-30-10

Time will tell.

Comment By sharon fisher, 1-30-10

Regardless of how the Republicans (and they're not a monolithic bloc) may have acted in the past, I'd like to think that this event will have helped both sides see each other as individual people.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-30-10

In my lifetime which stretches back to the beginning of WWII, the Repulsicans have had no conscience and the Democraps have shown little ability to coordinate when game changing legislation was required.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-30-10

The picture you chose was more accurate than your sentimental theorizing. The lions want to tear Danny boy apart and devour him but God probably made him stink like a skunk especially for the occasion.

Comment By sharon fisher, 1-30-10

I actually didn't choose the picture, but I love it. Coincidentally, I was just looking up the artist. It's 19th-century Irish artist Briton Rivière. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briton_Rivière

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-30-10

Yea, its a pretty cool pic.

Comment By nelscomm, 1-31-10

It was also good for Obama 'cause he's getting his clock cleaned and he needed to try something quick to stench the bleeding

Comment By Juan, 1-31-10

Obama claims the event was so he could work with the Republicans, but he insisted on cameras so it wouldn't actually be a working sit down, but a PR stunt where he could lecture about being bi-partisan.
Par for the course from a President who couldn't imagine an action that did not have a political reason.

Comment By the real mike, 1-31-10

Oh well.

Comment By Mike, 1-31-10

What Obama did was absolutely amazing. I;ve enver seen anything like it. He came off as the dad schooling a bunch of little kids. I laughed when I found out the White House urged cameras at the last minute. They knew what the results would be.

The GOP talking points were refuted decisively and swiftly. 1 manversus 140, and they got spanked.

Comment By Sam, 1-31-10

Interesting lens you look through Mike. Its called rhetoric, and yes, Obama is good at it.

Comment By Sam, 1-31-10

Sharon, enjoy the kool-aid.

Comment By The_Boneshackler, 1-31-10

Imagine W 'attempting' to do this. ROFLMAO. For all my disappointment in Obama's inability to come to terms with our out-of-control Corporate Oligarchy, he does have the ability to lead. I pray that the next three years will see more of this and less of TARP.

Comment By Sam, 1-31-10

Obama's ability to lead is yet to be seen... Interesting that those of you who hated W's swagger appreciate Obamas new school superswagger so much. Talks cheap...

Comment By sharon fisher, 1-31-10

Actually, Mike, what I thought was that he interacted with them like rational adults. He pointed out things they said that didn't make sense, and he worked from the assumption that they, like him, wanted to do something better for the country.

People tend to live up to the expectations you have for them. I look forward to seeing how it works out.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-31-10

Our entire political system is fueled by Rhetoric or Bullshit bought with money from special interest groups. You've got to be a good bullshiter funded by a lot of money(corruption) to win elections. In our system the best Bullshiter backed by the most money and organization usually wins. Which means that our country is at the whims of gullible people willing to believe the best well funded bullshiter from either party. If we don't get our act together and eliminate the gridlock, we'll never notice that China is in the process of out competing the U.S. on most economic fronts. If our political system encourages instability and gridlock instead of producing economic results then we can brag all we want about being the greatest democracy the world has ever know but increasingly the rest of the world will not find our assertions of superiority credible as more of us drive ourselves to the poorhouse in our SUVs.

Comment By mitch, 2-01-10

Enjoyed your article Sharon Fisher. I have watched the video and read the transcript of the meet between our President and the GOP several times. My greatest hope was for the younger of the Repubs, and those who are truly interested in improving the state of our country would eventually see who they were following, and how that was getting nowhere. Most of us want to see our country and our people prosperous, healthy and working with great plans for saving our environment for those next generations. Did you watch the State of the Union speech? Did you see all those grumpy old people on the one side? The ones that looked like they needed exlax? Do they look like they're really ready to join in and make some progress?

Mickey, you mention China and US competing. That was brought up by our President Obama.

Comment By SuperJarHead, 2-02-10

"Obama claims the event was so he could work with the Republicans, but he insisted on cameras so it wouldn't actually be a working sit down, but a PR stunt where he could lecture about being bi-partisan.
Par for the course from a President who couldn't imagine an action that did not have a political reason."

No!

Americans want transparency! We, the people, need to see exactly what both sides are doing! No matter if you are a republican, independant or democrat, this live session was absolutely good for America.

Comment By SuperJarHead, 2-02-10

"Sam: Obama's ability to lead is yet to be seen... Interesting that those of you who hated W's swagger appreciate Obamas new school superswagger so much. Talks cheap..."

W's swagger lead us from a surplus to 1.3b in debt! Don't forget that!

That's Pied Pipper Swagger.

Comment By Sam, 2-02-10

SuperJ,
Oh I havent forgotten, in fact we were reminded just last week by BO in his state of the union... He "inherited it". But two wrongs dont make a right! Lets see where the chosen one leaves us at the end of just one term, and we'll see who goes down in history with the pied piper swagger award. Enjoy the kool-aid hopers and changers.

Comment By Sam, 2-02-10

Mitch: "Did you see all those grumpy old people on the one side? The ones that looked like they needed exlax? Do they look like they're really ready to join in and make some progress?"

Yeah I saw them... Now that the otherside doesnt have the super-majority "the one side" will atleast have the opportunity to join in and make some progress. We'll see... Enjoy the kool-aid.

Comment By Monty, 2-02-10

Sharon: excellent comments. As Chris Matthews, in a post evaluation of the event, pointed out that Obama missed an opportunity to put the Tenn. Congresswomen in her place. This congresswomen read off a long list--more of a speech than question--of health care topics that she wanted Obama to consider. This congresswomen, who had been in office for 8 years, 7 of them under a Republican president with control of both houses, should have been asked by Obama why she didn't voice these health care ideas when the republicans were in control.

Comment By SuperJarHead, 2-02-10

I, for one, think BO is setting us up for failure. I mean, the Dow is up 3K since the BO administration policy were enacted. The Dow is UP 3000 points since then. Trust me fellow elephants, BO is piping us to failure.

Don't forget that dividend payments received for all TARP participants are about $4.5 billion to date, according to US department of Treasury. Don't forget that the Treasury Department has approved 10 of the nation's largest banks to repay $68 billion in government bailout money. That means half the money will be paid back, "not including interest", by Summer 2010!

It's obvious we are on the verge of total Collapse! The "BLUE" sky is falling.

BO shouldn't say he "inherited" this huge deficit. What a coward. He should "adopt" the deficit as his own, like Bush adopted the surplus as his own. You never heard the Bush administration complaining about all the cash they had to blow through! Yeeeehaaa! Wooohoooo!!!

Comment By sharon fisher, 2-03-10

Monty, something I liked about the appearance is there wasn't a lot of "putting people in their place." If the point is to gain their support, it's better if he doesn't 'put people in their place' too much -- he can win the battle, but he'd lose the war.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 2-03-10

He's got to defend himself against all the false accusations and burning bags of bullshit being flung at him by the Repulsicans and the Tea Baggers.

Comment By d, 2-03-10

you are so predictable, garcia. i can recognize one of your posts without your mickey garcia on it.

Comment By Ron C, 2-03-10

So, Obama decides to engage in some constructive dialogue with 'the enemy' after being served a very large piece of humble pie by the voters in Mass. He's just doing the job he was sworn to do when he became president - to represent ALL the people of this nation - instead of building a partisan wall of politics around himself.

Obama should be commended for his willingness to discuss these issues openly with Republicans. I just wish the concept of open discussion had been practiced more freely when the Democrat majority decided to draft major health care reform behind closed doors.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 2-03-10

Repulsican spin and Hogwash. The Repulsicans intended to obstruct Obama in order to destroy him from the very beginning. Many of them announced that was what they were going to do. As far as health care goes Teddy Roosevelt had health insurance for working people in his Platform when he ran for president on the Progressive Ticket in 1912, and the Repulsican Idiots were using "socialism" as a scare tactic even back then. Its been almost 100 years, folks. Universal Health care is a human right, folks. Every advanced industrial democracy has universal health and most of them are spending a lot less per capita for health care than the U.S.

Comment By bearbait, 2-03-10

Would the US accept Cuban educated doctors? Most in Haiti gain their education in Cuba. Would ObamaNation and the Demoncraps not stop insurance selling at the state border? Is there a possibility that we might have tort reform to vastly lower the cost of malpractice insurance? Oregon Health Sciences Center had a statutory limit of $300,000 they could pay on a malpractice claim. Few were filed. That amount of money would not pay the cost of putting on a case for the plaintiff. Which begs the question: is it about doctors and cost, or is it about lawyers and cost?

Health care is about money. Having the government that can't control illegal immigration foot the bill for universal health care is a budget breaker. Congress and ObamaNation know that. Their answer was to tax insurance companies more, people who had insurance, and cut Medicare payouts. You don't go forward by slamming the transmission in reverse and stomping on the gas peddle. Just that deal alone elected a Republican with baggage to the Kennedy Senate seat.

As to Garcia's claim that Repubiclands are obstructive, I have to assume his television was out, he got no newspaper, nor did he have computer access to the internet for the whole of Nancy Pelosi's time as a minority leader, and then Speaker. The whole of the Democrat party has been about obstructionism since they lost the House and Senate, and while the R's held the Presidency. Ya gotta quit lookin' outta yer left eye only. Newt was a good teacher for her. He, like Nancy, had his problems when he gained the majority. Her first year with a Democrat President has been an unmitigated disaster, and mostly due to her not being able to herd the cats of the outer left fringe of the Demoncrap party. The Democrats blew 2010. Pissed it away. And don't blame the Repulsicans. Pelosi, Reid, and the Obammer did it on their own......

If the Obammer can save them, I don't know. I just hope he does not go off on some referee who calls the fouls that put his daughter out of a game. A Harry and Margaret moment. And I do wonder what Hairy Ass Truman would do if he were making the decisions. Me thinks Karzai would be wearing his green dress somewhere else other than Kabul. And the Taliban would be at the table in Kandahar suing for peace. I guess we just don't make Demoncraps like we used to. Wobbly, knobbly Repulsicans we do. And when we do get one who is tough enough, we let a Chevy Chase define them in comedy, and then elect a personable nerd like Carter, who managed to put us in the last real recession. The Repulsican Reagan managed to drag us out of that deal. Do we think success will come from an entirely different track from an entirely different philosophy? Or is this just more of the same, and we get whatever Milo Minderbinder and his business partners allow us to have?

Comment By d, 2-03-10

mickey,,,,, how is universal health care a human right? even a drivers license isnt a right, its a privilege. tell us????

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 2-03-10

Article 25 of the U.N. universal declaration of human rights signed by the U.S. (1948). "Everyone has a right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well being of himself and of his family including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, disability, sickness, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control." Also included in Article 12 of the U.N. international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights. Signed by the U.S. (1966). International human rights law is unambiguous. Universal Health Care is a right and the government must step in and provide it if the private sector fails to do so. The private sector has failed to do so for at least 100 years in the U.S.

Comment By sharon fisher, 2-03-10

I never know how to respond when people say that health care is a privilege, not a right, because I can't imagine the sort of world they're talking about. To me, that means you and your loved ones get medical care only if you can afford it, and otherwise you're left to suffer and die in your homes or on the street. Is that really the sort of country you imagine we live in?

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 2-03-10

"Would the U.S. accept Cuban educated doctors?" Sure. Why not? We accept Philippine educated doctors.

Comment By Ron C, 2-03-10

Mickey - I think Obama's doing a fine job of destroying himself right now. He doesn't need much help from the opposition. Obama and his Socialist friends picked the wrong time to raise taxes and dump more debt on our nation than we can handle. I think voters are fed up with it already - and it only took a year.

And health care is NOT a right. It is a privilege allowed to us through the prosperity of this great country. Prosperity that was created by people taking risks and turning good ideas and fearless effort into profit. It is also important to understand that our government does not create the wealth or the jobs that will expand our tax base to provide the kind of social programs you want to see.

Health care is not cheap. Quality health care is downright expensive - and somebody has to pay for it. How do you define 'affordable' from one person to the next? How do you determine how much one person should pay over another? Who gets 'affordable' health insurance? How do you keep ‘affordable’ health insurance ‘affordable’?

We are too great a nation to allow US citizens who need medical care to go without. I'm convinced there is a way to achieve this without dismantling our current health care system:

Expand the existing Medicaid/Medicare system to accept those who have been denied conventional health insurance and those whose premiums have increased beyond their ability to pay. You must meet certain criteria to benefit from this system. Premiums (if any) would be set on an ability to pay basis.

This creates a taxpayer-subsidized safety net for those who need it most and provides an alternative to bankruptcy. This also puts the cost out in the open and where it inevitably will lie: with the taxpayers. This will also keep the free market intact for those who can afford it.

One of the issues with government-run health care that you may overlook is that it will inevitably lead to lower-quality care. Case in point: I have a good friend who was in need of a liver transplant. He was also a veteran. Under his government-run VA plan, he would have died before one came available through the VA. Fortunately, with private family funding, he was able to get the care he needed on the free-market. Of course, there were other factors involved in the doctors putting him high on the list – like age and probability of success – but his ability to finance the operation was a key factor. In a government run system, that option doesn’t exist.

The best doctors in the world come here to practice because of the opportunities provided by our free market system. Yes, we have Philippine doctors here because there is more opportunity here. When you spend $250,000 on an education, you are planning on a handsome return for that investment. A government-run health care system will cap salaries and wages for health care workers, reducing the incentive for the world’s best doctors to practice here.

Well, I’ve managed to explain all of this without resorting to name-calling. Do you have any better ideas?

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 2-04-10

Health care is a right. I just cited the legal basis for it and Sharon mentioned the moral basis. "Expand the existing Medicaid/Medicare system". That's fine with me. Everyone could be covered by Medicare and everyone would have to pay into it and everyone would carry a little card in his wallet that had his entire medical history on it. A lot simpler and a lot cheaper as other democratic countries have proven. "Obama and his socialist friends" "Socialist" is just a propaganda slogan used by the malicious to frighten the ignorant like the tea bagger who claimed he didn't want the government screwing with his medicare. All the countries who have universal health care don't consider themselves "socialist" and have private property rights. Additionally most of their health care systems allow their citizens to choose their physician and hospital. "Health care is not cheap" Its a hell of a lot cheaper in other countries which have universal health care. U.S. health care is also less effective when you compare infant mortality rates, longevity and similar health results. "understand that our government does not create the wealth or the jobs that will expand our tax base" More right wing baloney. Both the government and private sector creates wealth and jobs that will expand our tax base depending on how they spend money."A government run health care system will cap wages and salaries for health care workers" A system run by large corporations (Big Pharma, Insurance, etc.) without regulation is bankrupting the country and screwing the poor. "government run health care will inevitably lead to lower quality care" Medicare, the VA and Military medicine on average give good quality care for dollar spent. In any case some of the countries which have universal health care have a private market for those who want and can afford luxury care. "in need of a liver transplant" This is about donor organ scarcity and being able to purchase black market organs outside the system not about quality health care.

Comment By Monty, 2-04-10

Ron C you resorted to name calling by using "Socialists" that for some is a dirty word. Of course many forget that this country is built on the back of "Socialism". Wasn't the "socialist" trillion $ Iraq war started to subsidize cheap energy? Yes taxes need to be raised to pay for this war because Americans do not want to pay for $5.00 a gallon gasoline. Isn't much of the water in the west that promotes unsustainable growth of places like Las Vegas a product of all the socialists who built the dams & canels?

Comment By Ron C, 2-04-10

There you go again - using that dirty 'S' word. Actually, our president has a long history of aligning himself with socialists. Ever heard of Saul Alinsky? He was a socialist and a marxist and his theories and his book 'rules for radicals' played a major role in shaping Obama's political career. This is very well documented. Propaganda slogan? Hardly. Actually, a real Democrat should be proud to be associated with the 'S' word.

Comment By Ron C, 2-04-10

PS - still waiting for your better idea . . . . .

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 2-04-10

The KISS better idea: Everyone on Medicare, Everyone pays into Medicare, Everyone can choose doctors and hospitals and other health service providers. Low overhead, better results. No one is forced to declare bankruptcy because of health bills. Infant mortality decreases. Longevity increases. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid)

Comment By TomK, 2-04-10

Mickey,
I like your KISS idea, but I don't see how a 2000+ page bill is keeping it simple. Everything you said fit in one sentence. Why do we need 2000+ pages to implement it? There should be a law setting a maximum number of pages for any bill.

Comment By Monty, 2-04-10

Ron C, many in the mining industry would be proud to call themselves socialists as after they "mine the wealth" the cleanup costs are frequently left to society that are called "Superfund Cleanup Sites". Or another example is the once great New England Fishery where the "free capitalists" built bigger & better boats with improved sonar that were capable of locating & catching every last fish in the ocean. And that's what they did. And now society is left with the "bill" and task of attempting to re-establish--if possible-- a sustainable fishery. There needs to be a "creative tension" between capitalists and socialists (or public regulations) in a world with billions of humans if we are not to destroy the "Commons".

Comment By bearbait, 2-04-10

Monty: don't forget to indict the charter boats of Alaska who have under reported and over caught halibut for the last decade. They did get the big hit this year, however. Now that the whole fishery is now at 60% or less of what it was when the charters and sports used that new electronics and better engines and hulls to access the fish and halibut banks. 75 years of conservation on the "commons" by the commercial fleet had halibut conserved and not overfished until the "sportsmen" fleet descended on the stocks. Hopefully, it is done.

Now I will castigate the mining industry.

Meanwhile, the "sportsmen" of the west coast are making a big push to rid the coast of gillnets. In that great lie campaign about selectivity and "walls of death", none mention the vast gillnet fishery in Bristol Bay, which conserves the red salmon of the north Pacific by strict enforcement of law and limited entry permits. From what was once a fishery with zero days of fishing in the late 50s and early 60s, to now never less than 20,000,000 gillnet caught fish a year. In the better return years, that number goes to the high 30 millions. The proposed largest open pit gold mine in the world, the Pebble Mine, is poised to go in at the headwaters of the Bristol Bay watersheds. The distinct happenstance of killing the most productive and successful salmon fishing in the world, which produces food like clockwork every year, should not be tolerated. Not matter what, Congress has to change law and NOT allow any mining in that watershed. None. You wonder why the energy of the anti logging army is not mobilized to prevent that mining. I guess it is because there would be a lesser need for an army of attorneys feeding at the overflowing trough of the EAJA...and the NGOs would lose valuable funding. It is, we know, about money and not resource values. For either side. Milo Minderbinder lives on. And since Bristol Bay sockeye are not a sport fishing goal of consequence, those folks are not present at this time. They are still trying to take more halibut, and get all of the harvestable surplus of salmon on the Columbia River. Beat the Indians out of their fish. I guess dipshifts in aluminum boats and big motors are the most bestest people on earth and deserve fish. It is their right..me me me me me me me me me......gets old...

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 2-04-10

A 2000+ page bill is necessary because a reduced cost simple bill would eliminate the profits of special interest groups who make a killing off of the unnecessary complexity of U.S. health care.

Comment By Monty, 2-05-10

Bearbait: Although we have strayed far from the original topic of this article, there is no more important issue in the world than protecting the "Commons". This topic should be daily news. As I am a member of a watershed council in Oregon, we get excited when several thousand wild salmon return in a given year as compared with the Bristol Bay fishery that produces 10's of millions of fish. In terms of the Pebble mine, in Bristol Bay watershed, you forgot to mention that they plan to construct a 4.3 mile long, 700 foot high "sludge storage dam" and, yes, the mining company has "pledged" to mitigate for any lost salmon production. Where have you heard this before?

Federal forest management in westside Oregon has some of the most rigorous environmental standards in the world--and I know this as I visit these forests 4 out of every 7 days--and these forests are located on some of the most productive forgiving latitudes on earth. My point is that the environmental community--that I will give credit for some of the environmental improvements-- has to do a better job of addressing, as you point out, other issues like the Alaskan fishery. Our Pacific NW fisheries have pretty much been destroyed and to allow intact fisheries to go down the same toilet is unconscientable.

Comment By bearbait, 2-05-10

Monty: So where were you and your government funded organizations when the very large surplus of coho hatchery returns this last fall were sent off for processing to supply food banks? And the processor kept the offal and eggs.

Anglers buy licenses and tags to support fisheries. They pay for the opportunity to catch 10 salmon or steelhead. What is there about buying a tag from ODFW that also says "we support charitable giving with your license and tag fees"?

The watershed people have directed the spending of tens of millions of tax dollars to create better habitat. However, a century of overfishing, habitat alterations, creation of sewage disposal districts and systems, have eliminated salmon from the streams for such a long time that there is no longer a sufficient food web to support salmon offspring in our coastal streams. The ability of the rain to leach the micronutrients and return them to the ocean, the sandstone bed rock, the paucity of gravel, and structure to hold gravel, was overcome in the past by the numbers of dead salmon in the spawning season. Salmon lay eggs and then die. Their carcasses become the font of life thereafter. You can only raise as many fish as there have been dead salmon in the stream.

So when hundreds of thousands of coho went not to "salting" streams, but to food banks, we just engendered the very same policies your organizations' draconian demands on landowners and resource users deem wrong and sue to stop. You can do all you want to create structure and habitat, bypass instream obstructions, and protect clean water, but none of that is food for fish. Fish need amino acids and nutrients from salmon flesh, and so does a host of instream and riparian species that in turn become food for raising young fish. All those food banked salmon contain the very hope, the exact need, for salmon recovery, and were lost to some altruistic socialist dream from Salem and urban Oregon.

I expect you and the people you work with to address this very issue at the highest levels of Oregon State Government. Those salmon, in streams, dead, having never been allowed to spawn, are the hope for a vigorous and sustainable wild fish population. It takes salmon to have salmon.

A hen salmon will segregate the fines from the steam bedload to the the tune of 1.5 to 7 cubic meters per fish, depending on species and size. One caudal fin will clean that much gravel. The nest or correctly "redd", is a depression followed by a wing shaped rise in the gravel, with the eggs covered by gravels that allow for good water circulation and oxygenation of the developing eggs. The depression upsteam collects fines, and the wing-like shape accelerates the water flow over the redd, and results in deposition of fines downstream from the redd. Tens of millions of years of Darwinian selection have determined the architecture of the salmon redd.

So you do have to wonder how much gravel NOT having been annually "cleaned" by redd building for a century has resulted in less salmon survival and activity. Salmon, if there in sufficient numbers, maintain their spawning gravels. There is evidence now that salmon seek out areas where there is water, as in a spring, coming from under the gravel as preferable spawning sites.

So we have the salmon maintaining habitat by redd construction, then depositing eggs, and then dying with their bodies keeping the nutrient levels in the stream, the riparian zone, and the uplands above levels that will exist without salmon in the stream. Carbon isotopes found only in marine plants show up in ridge top douglas firs and other conifers. Salmon is the only way to get it there. The dead salmon are a part of carbon sequestration. They support their own young. They are important to the whole of the terrestrial habitat of the stream and watershed. And nobody from the Oregon Watersheds Council has written a letter to the Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commissioners castigating the ODFW decision (probably from the Governor's office--he is dolt on these issues) to send surplus hatchery fish to feed the poor. A segment of those poor are poor because they lost their jobs due to a paucity of salmon and the requirements of watershed protections. Not having the ocean nutrition that was once available, there now, is a great part of the failure of the rural job market. Hatcheries do work to sustain salmon, and when the ocean is provident, and there is a great surplus of fish, it is incumbent upon Watershed Councils to make sure those surplus fish go back into the riverine ecosystems. And not to food banks. Heartless? Maybe. But realistic? Yes. We cannot return the streams to prior levels of productivity without dead salmon to feed the creeks. Water quality, access and availability, stream structure, all are necessary, but useless without dead salmon in numbers to meet the critical mass needs of the stream for salmon flesh to feed the biota needed to support fingerlings and smolts.

Comment By Monty, 2-06-10

You have given me a mouth full to "chew on". I have printed a copy of your response & will share at next Watershed Council meeting.

The Watershed Council that I am a member of is funded in part by private & government grants. There are only 3 paid members while the rest of us are volunteers. Members range from private citizens, fishing organizations, industry representatives like timber & electric, county, state & fed folks and anyone else who lives in the watershed that would like to become a member. A very diverse group!!!

Do we have all of the answers, hell no! But we "stumble along" and are always willing to listen, listen, listen. We remove litter, pull weeds, plant vegetation, lobbie land owners, create highschool water monitoring groups, educate others & ourselves. Any instream habitat improvement is done by fed, state or private timber or power companies.

Comment By bearbait, 2-06-10

Monty: Thanks for reading it through. You are in a position to influence ODFW decisions because you have standing. I don't believe most people want to believe that dead salmon (they stink, have maggots on an in them until the nest freshet, and are food for lots of other critters from all forms of animal life) are anything more than pollution of clean water. Pure water does not support life. That is the objective!! But to recover salmonids, you have to have fish flesh in the watershed in amounts to feed more than the young fish in the stream. I don't know a certain measurement or standard, but I really can't imagine we will ever get to where there are too many dead salmon in a stream. If we did in my lifetime, you would see an old fat guy do a cartwheel on a gravel bar.

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