Bob Wire Has a Point (It's Under His Cowboy Hat)

Tucson: Will Palin Man Up?

In the midst of tragedy, an opportunity to ramp down the gun-themed rhetoric.

Comment By larry kurtz, 1-10-11

Eighty percent of ip poll respondents believe marriage should be prohibited for those self-identifying as christian. These results likely reflect frustrations with sex among the sects in sectors of secularism when citing the sighting of sites where the bleu blew blue.

Rhetoric like Beck’s “constitution hanging by a thread,” Nugent’s “suck on this” referring to the automatic weapon in his law-breaking grip, and Palin’s crosshair map are indicative of The Right’s commitment to the destruction of the Democratic Party. http://www.democracynow.org/2011/1/10/chip_berlet_on_the_becking_of

Loughner had a hundred rounds with him likely visualizing the white horse prophesy to which Glenn Beck refers in the LDS-based sermons to his minions that air in his parents’ household. http://interested-party.blogspot.com/2010/10/this-npr-story-stopped-me-right-in.html

It is with some synchronicity that ip detects a mounting propensity for violence among those experiencing real or perceived political disenfranchisement.

Comment By Ken, 1-10-11

Michele Bachman urging people to be "armed and dangerous" against the government. Beck joking about beheading journalists who dare disagree with him. Culpability from this crowd? Reflection on their violent rhetoric? Not bloody likely. Violence begets violence. Their tone will not change, but you can bet their crying "it has nothing to do with me" will get ever louder.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-10-11

This guy is a whackadoodle: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/10/2011-01-10_chilling_shrine_in_madmans_yard.html

Hinting that Palin, conservatives, the Right, etc, triggered this without a shred of proof is blatant McCarthyism. The hypocrisy asserting the non-existent connection without including self reflection is laughable: http://www.verumserum.com/?p=13647

During the 2008 election it was Obama who said in Philly: “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”

Poisonous political rhetoric goes back quite a while. Adams and Jefferson threw some very pointed verbal darts at each other, and they were friends!

A person bent on a showy, public, horrific act of slaughter doesn’t need a verbal tap on the knee to trigger the reflex. It builds over time from many experiences that mix together into a living nightmare. Jared Loughner is nothing more than Travis Bickle.

The Left’s Paul Krugmans are not prophets or even wise men, they are merely Rahm Emmanuel opportunists salivating over a crisis. http://www.verumserum.com/?p=20406

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-10-11

The right are wining in this country because they are better liars than lefties and they're very eager to incite violence against their enemies. The right also has a mean spirited, violent, no nothing tradition that comes out of slavery and the deep south. Even after the slaves were supposedly freed after the civil war, white southerners figured out a way to keep blacks enslaved for another 150 years. Its fascinating how similar the Pakistani assassin justifying his execution of a Pakistani politician for "blasphemy" sounds about the same as the reasoning of the high priests of the right like Beck and Limbaugh when they attempt to incite right wing nut cases to violence.

Comment By Mary Waterton, 1-10-11

No need for Palin to apologize. No need to ban guns, talk radio, or FOX. Loughner is a monster created by the left.

(1) Evidence that Loughner was probably a democrat:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/jared-lee-loughner-suspected-gabrielle-giffords-shooter-school/story?id=12575278

"According to court documents released today, authorities discovered a safe in Loughner's home with a thank you letter from Giffords for attending a Congress on Your Corner event in 2007 -- the same kind of event Loughner allegedly assaulted Saturday."

Strong evidence that Loughner was a disgruntled democrat nut. No conservative, tea party, or republican literature found in his safe. No evidence found that he attended republican or tea party political events.

(2) No evidence of from his friends that Loughner listened to talk radio or FOX News. No evidence from his friends that he was a tea party advocate. Plenty of evidence he listened to heavy metal music and smoked dope, both cultural influences of the left.

(3) The strongest evidence that Loughner was a leftist nut is his own YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

Note the flag burning video with Satanic music and lyrics. Flag burning and anti-Christian sentiments are indicative of the left. Right wingers don't burn flags. Note the interest in leftist reading material such as "Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto".

Comment By Jay Greene, 1-10-11

I feel pretty much the same as the entertainer, Bob Wire, about the whole subject; but I have to say this:
Every time I have presumed some such act of cowardly assassination was due to the actions of some hill billy redneck who would be affected by somebody like Glen Beck or Sarah Palin, it has invariably turned out to be somebody like Oswald, Sirhan Sirhan--or some other nonentity whose dedication to the Right wing turned out to be, at least, very questionable.
May as well face it, I think.
The propensity toward murderous insanity seems not to be focused on any particular political ideals.

Comment By Bob Wire, 1-10-11

Yeah, the devil made him do it. Whatever. I stand by my assertions that the gun-centric rhetoric is just going to incite more violence.
Thanks for reading.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-10-11

Jay, from the link I posted above http://www.verumserum.com/?p=20406 why are the Left silent about the Clay Dukes?

===quote===
When Clay Duke walked into a Florida school board meeting last month and attempted to shoot several people, Paul Krugman said nothing. A cynic might suggest this was because Duke’s Facebook page contained a rant about “the rich” and a list of his favorite progressive websites, including Media Matters. But Saturday, after a gunman opened fire on a crowd at Arizona Congresswoman Giffords’ public appearance at a supermarket, Krugman leapt to his keyboard to tell us who was to blame...
===end quote===

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-10-11

Bob, does you belief about gun centric rhetoric apply to popular video games, movies, and literature including the classics?

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-10-11

adding to my last comment, please include hip hop lyrics explicitly expressing violence.

Comment By dave, 1-10-11

no doubt that palin is a gun nut. but commander in chief obama asked his constituents to punish their enemies during the midterms.

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-10-11

Well, "Bob," you just cemented your creds as another leftie tool hoping like mad to not let this crisis go to "waste." You should stick to music and leave the guns to those of us with a clue.
What happened in Tuscon is, like any other nut shooting, absolutely criminal, inexcusable. Had I been there, I hope I would have run to the sound of the guns, armed or more likely not.
A Congresswoman, a federal judge, a 9 year old kid getting a civics lesson, and four other upstanding Americans who deserved better? A travesty...what is WRONG with us?
But you are wrong in your approach. It turns out that the only "rhetoric" this guy heard was the voices in his head....from no less than the Washington Post:
“There is, at this point, no evidence that the suspect in Saturday's shootings that left six dead and Giffords and 13 others wounded was influenced by inflammatory political rhetoric, or that any voices that motivated him were outside his own head.”
Robert Barnes, staff writer for the Washington Post.
Other sources are saying the guy was also in the mental health system but had not been adjudicated or sequestered. Why the heck not?
So, to solve all the problems, my main girl Carolyn McCarthy is going to revive the assault weapons ban even if this guy had a plain old Glock, and she's also gonna trot out a magazine ban.
Trouble there is, one of his magazines jammed, and it would not surprise me if it was the EXTENDED mag....they are generally notoriously unreliable -- seems to me that it might be more effective to ENCOURAGE big magazines that jam.
One thing this fiasco is doing, is showing how profoundly biased and utterly incompetent the mainstream media is, and how opportunistic certain politicians of a certain party -- and their enablers -- tend to be. So....every cloud has a silver lining.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-11-11

This all sounds wonderful. Violent rhetoric from the right held harmless in all instances. Only the mentally ill are responsible for carnage. Except that you have to ignore all the threats and vandalism that Democrapic law makers, including Gifford, have been receiving during the last couple of years that the Repulsicans have been ramping up their Campaign of lies against Democraps.

Comment By Gigo, 1-11-11

Looking at these comments it just demonstrates that some people believe its OK to be violent to meet their goals. I hear the 'he did it... no she did it' rhetoric. Get a life!!!
Do you people really think its OK for people to die for your ideas????
Basically if you think that guns are God, then you ain't one.
Put it in perspective, your six year old was gunned down by someone who thought their ideas were better than yours. What now????
I guess when you can learn to accept different ideas and cope then you might grow up to be a mature citizen in this world.
If you remain stuck in the 'I like my guns' or 'your not from my tribe' or 'you don't think like me' then your doomed to repeat this crap over and over. Go on, spread the hate!!!
OR
you could join the rest of the world, which doesn't think its superior to everyone else, but tries to help everyone about them to achieve something better. (This includes the majority of Americans who just don't need this crap).

Just think about your ideas and think about what someone, from Iraq, Afghanistan, St Louis, Tibet, etc. would say in answer to them???

Comment By Roy, 1-11-11

There is so much nonsense in this article that it`s nearly impossible to know where to start....Palin had a map with targets on it?.....Mr. Wire, did you forget that the Democrats did the same thing in the 2004 Presidential campaign? ...Hateful messages from the right?...I guess you also forgot about the left calling for President Bush`s assassination?...T-shirts that said Kill Bush"..A poster that shows Palin being punched in the face?...Former Congressman Al Grayson saying "Republicans want people to die"?...How about President Obama saying, " if they bring a knife, we bring a gun?.....Sir, you are no reporter...

Comment By big sky, 1-11-11

More rants from the left. Blame Palin for this assualt? Ridiculous.

People are responsible for their own actions. Nobody to blame here but the deranged nut himself.

Don't tell me the issue of violence in politics does not travel with all parties. You see it all the time.

Comment By Fenske, 1-11-11

Not that it matters much because this guy is sadly very crazy, but he was a registered Republican.

However, never let the fact get in the way if you can bash your presumed enemies with lies.

Comment By Fenske, 1-11-11

awww crap I got hoaxed.

Posted at 5:28 PM ET, 01/10/2011
Jared Lee Loughner was a registered independent, didn't vote in 2010 election
By Chris Cillizza
Suspected Tucson gunman Jared Lee Loughner registered as an independent voter in Arizona in the fall of 2006, according to the Pima County Registrar of Voters.

Loughner registered to vote on Sept. 29, 2006, identifying himself as an independent. Records show he voted in the 2006 and 2008 elections but is current listed as "inactive" on the state's voter roles -- meaning that he did not vote in November.

Again, neither right nor left matters. Crazy as a bedbug.

How about we all tone it down a notch.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

To follow up on Dave's comment, let’s start with what we do know. The shooter was 22 years old. Others observed that he was a drug and alcohol abuser. He sacred the sh*t out of people so much that he was banned from his CC. Both he and his parents were loners. He liked to read. He was a registered independent and didn’t vote in 2010.

Now, are young people who don’t vote more attuned to pop culture influences (violent video games, movies, hip hop lyrics, and literature) or political pundits?

Why does the Left avoid the OBVIOUS influences in his life and latch onto the specious other than to score political points in the manner of Rahm Emmanuel’s advice to never let a crisis go to waste?

BTW, Barbara Walters defended Palin.

Jack Shafer at Slate has it right: http://www.slate.com/id/2280616/

===quote===
For as long as I’ve been alive, crosshairs and bull’s-eyes have been an accepted part of the graphical lexicon when it comes to political debates. Such “inflammatory” words as targeting, attacking, destroying, blasting, crushing, burying, knee-capping, and others have similarly guided political thought and action. Not once have the use of these images or words tempted me or anybody else I know to kill. I’ve listened to, read—and even written!—vicious attacks on government without reaching for my gun. I’ve even gotten angry, for goodness’ sake, without coming close to assassinating a politician or a judge.

From what I can tell, I’m not an outlier. Only the tiniest handful of people—most of whom are already behind bars, in psychiatric institutions, or on psycho-meds—can be driven to kill by political whispers or shouts. Asking us to forever hold our tongues lest we awake their deeper demons infantilizes and neuters us and makes politicians no safer.
===end quote===

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

Occassionally, the tree of liberty must be watered.....WITH THE BLOOD OF NINE YEAR OLDS! Bob is exactly right. This nonsense spouted by you righties is as despicable as the hate spewed by your tv and radio haters. There is absolutely NO ONE on the left in politics calling for "second amendment solutions". In fact, as old as I am and as closely as I have followed politics, I have NEVER heard of this before! Yet out it comes out of the vile sewer mouths of the righties on a regular basis. Also, go to ANY teabagger gathering, be it on the blogs or in person, and you will find ALL of them espousing that we must have a revolution, and violent one! They ALL shout about watering the tree of Liberty. Now, Moore, please provide even ONE use of this in recent history! There are none.

Violence is engendered, fostered, foment, and encouraged by the right because they KNOW that it's an effective tool! Repeat. Violence is an effective too to achieve their ends! Heck, they've even SAID as much at redstate! They are glad it happened! Why? Why is this an effective tool? Easy answer. Violence causes the government to become unworkable. And then, WHO benefits when the government becomes unworkable? Well the powerful do! And then, might makes right. Well, ask yourself who has the might!

The ONLY thing that amazes me is how depraved you righties really are in your defense of hate. That's sickening. And it's evil I might add. So, go ahead and keep watering the tree of liberty with nine year old girls and see how much sympathy you gain. I believe that America is ready to reject the hatred of the racists, haters, and dimwits.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

Pogue, either you are not old enough or have lived a sheltered life.

BTW, thanks for the gratuitous insult which adds nothing to the discussion.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

Guess you can't respond, Moore. But please, try again. List ONE example from history where a lefty politician used the words "second amendment solution", or "watering the tree of liberty" nonsense, or "if ballots don't work, bullets will". Or a serious political figure like Palin who advises to not "retreat, but re-load"! Sorry, but I can't think of one. Now, you on the other hand, with your extensive knowledge, should be able to easily indicate just where these quotes are on the history of the left. Or, answer me this. When Bush came to Montana, we were told that we couldn't hold even wooden SIGNS in protest, for they might be used as weapons! Yet at Obama's appearances, guns were routinely allowed! You've got nothing but nonsense. And BTW, the very first use of bullets vs. ballots that I can remember was used by the nutcase James Watt many years ago. He said that if they could't win at the ballot box, they'd win at the cartridge box! Remember that one? He also was famous for saying that we had to develop our resources quickly because we were living in the end times and we couldn't afford to have an excess at the end times, 'cause it really didn't matter.

You see, the right has only grown more insane since that time. You discredit yourself mightily by defending the violent rhetoric. That makes you complicit. So, how much more blood/water does that liberty tree need from nine year olds? Just curious.

Comment By Jedediah Redman, 1-11-11

Speaking of insane rhetoric. It seems to me that both sides are trying to lose credibility here.

Comment By dave, 1-11-11

werent there quite a few left leaners calling for bushs assassination?

Comment By Montucky, 1-11-11

I would suggest that if anything had an influence on Loughner, more than any single event, it is the spirit of hatred, one political party for the other, that has been promoted lately by both of the major political parties.

Seems to me that statements like "don't retreat, reload" (from Palin) and "Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly." (from Jesse Kelly) to a disturbed and unbalanced individual like Loughner is akin to saying "jump" to the disturbed guy out on the ledge. Shame on the political party machine that accepts such rhetoric from people they promote as leaders!

The vitriolic dialog from the other side also could equally as well have been part of the push that got this guy out on the ledge in the first place. The repeated rhetoric of Barack Obama, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, to name just a few to vilify the party that they oppose and create a chasm of anger and hate between the parties also clearly helps create an atmosphere of hate and conflict. Perhaps Dupnik (although I think in his position he was way out of line to say many of the things he did) held a measure of truth when he said "To try to inflame the public on a daily basis 24 hours a day, seven days a week has impact on people, especially who are unbalanced personalities to begin with."

It may well be time for the grassroots folks within all political parties to replace those kind of irresponsible and hate-mongering "leaders" with honest and well-meaning citizens who can agree or disagree while still remaining rational and respectful citizens. In the process it might also be possible to eliminate some of the greed and corruption that has also become a hallmark of today's politics.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

Gosh Pouge, lighten up with the personal invectives. Guess you have no memory of Obama saying in 08: "“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun, because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.” Also, you have no memory of the target and enemy metaphors used by the DCCC.
Look it up!

BTW, Obama also alluded to Republicans as being enemies just last year: He said: 'If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, "We’re going to punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us," if they don’t see that kind of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it’s going to be harder, and that’s why I think it’s so important that people focus on voting on November 2.'

And your knowledge of history is pitiful. Remember the Civil War bullets vs ballots? Republican Lincoln, the South seceded? Bullets flew because of ballots cast for a Republican.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

...and Pogue, the quote about the "Tree of Liberty" comes from Jefferson who is seen as the father of the Dem party and is honored each year by Jefferson Jackson dinners.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

Craig, how could I possibly forget where that that term "watering the tree" comes from. I hear it endlessly along with all the violent rhetoric eminating from the hate merchants. But again, I really do not understand your defense of the Limbaughs, Palins, etc. Is this who you are? Are these folks you? You seem to be saying yes. Even if I were a rightie, I would NOT want these hate merchants speaking for me. Are there no rational, reasonable voices out there on the right, or is your case SO shoddy that you must allow the nuts to do your talking for you. I assume, from having read your stuff, that you personally are of a much higher intellect than no college rush, and five college sarah. Can you not condemn their prediliction toward violence and make your own case for your beliefs without resorting to violent rhetoric that undoubtly motivates some to actiong out?

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-11-11

Ya know, I'm amused by the invective from the kind, caring, loving paragon of the left, Pogue Mahone. Precisely the sort of vitriol that the great Sheriff Dupnik has been so sagely warning us all about for the past few days. I guess you just don't quite get it. Fine, as long as others do get it, it'll work out in the end.

Something else....Poguester, your handle rang a bell so I thought I would elucidate the others with a little Wikigooglefoo:
"Pogue" frequently describes those who don't have to undergo the stresses that the infantry does, and is generally used as a diminutive for any non-infantry personnel who disagrees or impedes the wants of a "grunt".
Originally, the term was a sexual insult in early twentieth century gay culture, as "pogue" was slang for a young male who submitted to sexual advances.[3] This led to the related term "pogey bait", meaning candy or sweets.
Another source to which the term is attributed is the Gaelic and Irish language phrase "póg mo thóin" pronounced [pog muh hon] (literally 'kiss my arse'), applied to sycophants, suck-ups and others engaging in behaviors or practices commonly viewed by their peers to be beneath the expected degree of military bearing."
Hmmm. Pog my heinie? Indeed. If you act THAT out, PM, please don't tell us about it.

Comment By Fenske, 1-11-11

Well stated Montucky.

Each and everyone of who tolerates such things from the leaders of either party is complicit.

Try and remember, we are all Americans first and members of a political party second.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

Davey, pogue mahone!

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

p.s. Davey, Craig, and all you other wackos, DO you or DON'T you agree with all the folks on your side who favor watering the tree of liberty? If you do NOT agree, why do you defend them and their eliminationist rhetoric? Now, if you DO agree, just WHOSE blood are you going to use to water that tree? You've already used the blood of a federal judge and a nine year old girl, plus a seventy-nine year old woman among others. Is this blood not good enough? You see, you folks are abject cowards. You approve of eliminationist rhetoric in general, but refuse to be specific with just whose blood you're calling for! Why is that? I don't understand. Please enlighten me. Make me understand how calling for blood to water the tree of liberty is not completely wacko. And please, don't say that it's not being done. Go to ANY site where the teabaggers post. It's there all over the place. Personally, I think that you bozos are whizzin' on the tree of liberty.

Pogue Mahone

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

Pogue, I have not defended those individuals. I have called for people to connect the dots for a 22 year old as to what was the most likely influences in his life leading up to this horrific act. I agree with Jack Shafer of Slate that I quoted above. He is no right winger.

Again I ask, why does the Left avoid the OBVIOUS influences in Loughner's life and latch onto the specious other than to score political points in the manner of Rahm Emmanuel’s advice to never let a crisis go to waste? See above.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

Pogue, calling me or others cowards doesn't make it so. You don't know anything about me or what I have faced or done. If you too have had the blood of your friends staining your clothes and hands while attempting to stop their bleeding from gunshots, pulling them out of line of fire, like I have done, while being shot at, they you and I have a shared experience and something to talk about. If not, then you are just all BS. Ya see, I know who I am. I really don't care who you are.

Comment By Fenske, 1-11-11

Craig, do you now this young man?

The how can you offer assurances that he was influenced by anything at all?

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

Craig, are you as unsophisticated as you pretend to be? Look, do lefties REALLY talk about the gold standard a whole lot? And grammar controlling people, etc? The entire manifesto left behind by the shooter shows influences from varied extreme rightwing sources, particularly the Renaisance Movement among others. Now, was this guy seriously mentally ill? Of course. I will not argue that at all. But he was influenced to act in the manner in which he did. I think that as more comes during his trial, etc., we will get a clearer idea of just what those influences were. Now, if there are indeed lefty influences, I will condemn them immediately in the harshest terms. Will YOU do the same for far right influences? You still seem unwilling to acknowledge the gratuitous hate spewed from tv and radio. And BTW, there is no left equivalent, is there? Who is the leftwing Limpbaugh, Palin, Hannity, O'rielly, etc. They just don't exist. And I'm seeing a movement already starting among Republicans to distance themselves from these folks, and well they should. Because let's face it, violence does indeed beget violence. You "target" one of ours, we target one of yours! Oh sure, we'll condemn it when it happens just like you do. But it's Biblical, an eye for an eye. And I'm a christian.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

Pogue, I'll type slower this time so you can keep up.

The shooter was 22 years old.

Others observed that he was a drug and alcohol abuser.

He scared the sh*t out of people so much that he was banned from his CC.

Both he and his parents were loners.

He liked to read.

He was a registered independent and didn’t vote in 2010.

As to being anti-government, one of his favorite books was the Communist Manifesto. Not exactly laudatory of non-socialist goverments with the proletariat leading the revolution!

Now CONNECT THE DOTS, are young people who don’t vote more attuned to pop culture influences (VIOLENT video games, movies, hip hop lyrics, and literature) or political pundits?

Why does the Left avoid the OBVIOUS influences in his life and latch onto the specious other than to score political points in the manner of Rahm Emmanuel’s advice to never let a crisis go to waste?

Comment By fenske, 1-11-11

Why does the Left avoid the OBVIOUS influences in his life and latch onto the specious other than to score political points in the manner of Rahm Emmanuel’s advice to never let a crisis go to waste?

Why do you insist that hearsay is so obvious?

Perhaps you should wait for the entire story. It will emerge soon enough.

Could it be that you want than to score political points in the manner of Rahm Emmanuel’s advice to never let a crisis go to waste?

BTW he also admired Fahrenheit 451 and Mein Kampf. What is so OBVIOUS about those?

Not much really.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

fenske, I'm all for waiting for the whole story. However, as evidenced by this column lefties aren't going to hold their water before blaming. What I have attempted to offer in rebuttal are obvious observations of current young society and the shooter.

The Left's argument continues to morph: http://www.verumserum.com/?p=20495

===quote===
Mark Halperin: Conservatives Accused of Incitement to Mass Murder Should “Turn the Other Cheek”

John on January 11, 2011 at 3:24 pm

We’ve finally found a liberal who wants to remove the wall between church and state: (see link for video- cm)

The coverage of this story has gone from murder, to blame without facts, to fake but accurate–now the first sighting of the next stage: criticism of the right-wing backlash. How dare these conservatives take offense at being accused of murder. They should act more like Jesus so that we can get on with acting more like Pilate.

What is truth?
===end quote===

Comment By The Truth, 1-11-11

"No motives have emerged from today’s senseless shooting in Tucson, but Democratic Rep. Gabrielle Giffords has a long history of being targeted by the Tea Party—sometimes in violent terms.

In the run-up to 2010’s heated midterm elections, Arizona Democrat Gabrielle Giffords was placedon Sarah Palin's "target map," released in March, which featured gun crosshairs superimposed over her target's districts on a United States map. The graphic was removed from Palin’s website today. Palin has released a statement, saying her “sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today's tragic shooting in Arizona.”


Photos: Gabrielle Giffords



Giffords' Republican opponent in the race, Jesse Kelly, whom she narrowly defeated, held a campaign event in which he invited supporters to shoot a machine gun. “Get on target for victory,” an ad for the event read. “Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully a automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly,” the ad continued.

As Giffords’ father rushed to the hospital after his daughter was shot, the New York Post asked him if his daughter had any enemies. “Yeah,” he said. “The whole Tea Party.” He continued: "They always get threat[ened]. We don’t really have any information. The police department was supposed to call us but they didn’t."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/11742_gabriellegiffordsteapartytarget

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-11-11

By the way, I took a closer squint at that picture up top, and have to call BS on that kind of cheesy manipulation. Shame on you, "Bob." Did you get that off some crummy leftie website? Must have.
The thing that struck me is, her hands are all wrong.
Furthermore, I saw Palin's poor gun handling skills on that hunt show, she's right handed. That AR in the picture is left handed, which while made, is a rare iteration. Never mind that a right-handed person would not hold any rifle that direction.
Gosh, I just love the blatant visual dishonesty. And I have to laugh at the incompetence of the graphic "artist," who clearly doesn't know the first thing about firearms.
You would think out in the blogosphere there would be ONE image of Palin actually holding a gun that could be abused? No....SOMEONE just decided to make stuff up AND got it wrong.
And you wonder why "people are so mean?" A logger buddy of mine hit it on the head the other day -- "It's not civil to lie to people."
As for that tree of liberty stuff....let's just say that most of us hold that idea in reserve -- deep storage reserve.
Let me humbly further point out that Jefferson said patriots AND tyrants, and that the tree of liberty only gets nourishment from the right "water."
Quite simply, neither Giffords nor any of the other victims came a million miles from meeting the criteria of "tyrant," and Slickhead Loughner sure as he// didn't meet the "patriot" standard.
So, even if you can't figure it out, some of us do understand know the difference between nourishment and poison.

Comment By lulubird72, 1-11-11

Here's a thought! I want to know what kind of people Loughner's parents' are. He's a 22 year old who lived at home with not much on the ball. Is it so far-fetched to imagine a home where mom and dad are drinking beer and sitting and seething in front of the TV, computer or radio reading and listening to hate talk? (There's a whole lot more right-wing hosts than left-wing in this country.) Blaming the big-bad government or the community college for their son's lack of success? Really? Is that so far-fetched to imagine? It will be interesting to see what transpires.

Comment By big sky, 1-11-11

Appears to be a bit more to this story.....just got this...

The reaction to the shooting rippled across the country as Americans were aghast at the sight of such a violent attack on a sitting member of Congress. The shooting cast a pall over the Capitol as politicians of all stripes denounced the shooting as a horrific and senseless act of violence. What the Main Stream Media is trying not to talk about is the fact that U.S. District Judge John Roll was killed in the shooting. Judge Roll became notorious in Arizona after he ruled in favor of a group of non-citizen, illegal border-crossing Mexicans who were caught by Arizona Rancher Roger Barnett, in 2004, as they tried to sneak into this country and were caught on the Rancher's land.


Many in Arizona hail Rancher Roger Barnett as a “Patriot”, an “American Hero, but the amnesty crowd quickly labeled him a racist for holding these criminals at gunpoint. Soon, the liberal amnesty crowd took up the cause of the illegal’s, saying that their "rights" were violated by the man defending his land and his country by pointing a gun at the border jumpers.

The lawsuit is based on a March 7, 2004, incident in a dry wash on the 22,000-acre ranch Barret owns, when he approached a group of illegal immigrants while carrying a gun and accompanied by a large dog.

Attorneys for the illegal’s – five women and 11 men who were trying to cross illegally into the United States – have accused Mr. Barnett of holding the group captive at gunpoint, threatening to turn his dog loose on them and saying he would shoot anyone who tried to escape. That was a no-no, even though it is legal. In Arizona, he could have blasted them ALL and it would have been his legal right to do so.

But this is the new America, where Americans are "the enemy."

The illegal’s [leftists call them "immigrants"] are being represented by the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), which also charged that Sheriff Dever did nothing to prevent Mr. Barnett from holding their clients at “gunpoint, yelling obscenities at them and kicking one of the illegal alien women.”

In the lawsuit, MALDEF said Mr. Barnett approached the group as the illegal immigrants moved through his property, and that he was carrying a pistol and threatening them in English and Spanish. At one point, it said, Mr. Barnett’s dog barked at several of the women and he yelled at them in Spanish, “My dog is hungry and he’s hungry for ass.”

The lawsuit said he then called his wife and told her to call the Border Patrol. Two Border Patrol agents arrived at the site, and retrieved the illegal’s. The illegal’s with the help of the MALDEF, promptly filed law suits against the Rancher. [Don't ask me how]
U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE JOHN ROLL WAS KILLED
In March 2004, U.S. District Judge John Roll rejected a motion by Mr. Barnett to have the charges dropped, ruling there was sufficient evidence to allow the matter to be presented to a jury. The Judge by this ruling implied that illegal immigrants have certain legal protections even after illegally crossing the border AND doing so while illegally trespassing on a private American citizen's property. Mr. Barnett’s attorney, David Hardy, had argued that illegal immigrants did not have the same rights as U.S. citizens.

This is noteworthy because Arizona law allows the use of physical and even deadly force to prevent the commission of certain serious crimes, and also allows for a person to use physical force against another when and to the extent that a “reasonable person” would believe it necessary to prevent criminal trespass on their premises, or to prevent theft or criminal damage to certain property.

Nevertheless, Judge Roll overruled Arizona state law protections and allowed MALDEF to proceed to attempt to sue Mr. Barnett for a whopping $32, 000, 000. After this ruling, the judge received over 200 death threats on his life and those of his family members.

Judge Roll was one of those killed today.

Why is the media not explaining who this man was and how his being there is significant, seeing as he, NOT Rep. Gifford, was the one who had actually had all the death threats?

Go figure. I guess they just don't want to talk about it....like so many other things the public should know....

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

Pretty pathetic, Skinner. And that's probably the best you got. You talk about honesty, well, BE honest! DEEP IN RESEVE where you hold your "water the tree" fantasies, you also believe that Giffords got what she deserved! You know it, we know it, and we KNOW you know it! You're a sicko, dude. Don't lie. That's cowardly. Watering with a nine year old girl and a seventy-nine year old granny is just colateral waterin'. The two main targets were hit, a federal judge who favored immigration reform, and a congresswoman who favored health care. They deserved to be watered!, didn't they?

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

You are one sick mofo, Big Sky. Very, very sick. There's one of your teabagger pals, Craig. No respect for the dead at all. In fact, he's damn glad they nailed a federal judge, a judge he considers a traitor. He's a real intellectual. Probably read all of Ayn Rand's books.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-11-11

Pouge, your last comment is beyond the pale. It will be a test of NewWest's standards of conduct. If it stands, then it will be open season on unsupported personal attacks. I can play it on any terms so long as the rules apply equally.

Bob, what say you??????

Comment By the real mike, 1-11-11

Good article, Bob.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-11-11

Um, well craig, just WHAT does Judge Roll's judicial record have to do with his assassination? Nothing I'd say. Why would YOU agree with little sky that is worth mentioning? It's not. NO judge in America deservers assassination. Period! Regardless of their judicial record. It's not relevant. It's NOT a reason to resort to second amendment solutions. It's NOT a reason to target them with gunsights. And it's NOT a reason to take them out! That is NOT how our country is run. Yet little sky feels it's relevant. And that, my friend, is a real jerk. Again, have you people NO shame? A man is dead, and you want us to debate his judicial record? Think I'll just go take a shower bout now. Get some of this slime off.

Comment By big sky, 1-11-11

Hey, I didn't write it probe.....I just found it! Thought it might add a little to this segment, nothing more.

No one said assinations or hurting people was the right thing to do in any sense. The guy was a fruitcake and now he is a murderer. Here you are saying this guy was a "righty" (god forbid) and you don't know anymore about him then the rest of us.

Everybody has their political agenda and yours is shines out brightly. Left is right and right is out.....

Trying to put words into peoples mouths (on a blog, no less), saying what you want but can't take the heat if someone backhands you.

Typical

Comment By -, 1-12-11

Jarhead, Jarhad, or Jared with M16?

T’aint. another palin mental mashup? ain't+tisn't?

"Sharron Angle.. 2nd amend remedies"
She didn't "make that up folks". That's been standard gunnut talk, since the Aryan Nation pre-Reagan era.

"But I’m not exhorting anyone to “target” them or “pick them off” or “take Second Amendment remedies.” "
Targeting,, Destroying,, Wiping,, Beating, are all ok.
The words that aren't ok are those explicitly inciting weapons use.
"Pick them off" (who used that?) is not good, no matter if somebody visualizes a bow or a something more modern.
The context of "2nd amend remedies" is ridiculously obvious, as are suggestions that "the tree of liberty" needs watering with blood. (clue to those who need a clue: RW nutcases aren't referring to *caterpillar* or *earthworm* blood, especially when they're flaunting their 45acp substitute for a d1kk)
BTW, i have met people (all adult male) who haven't yet reached that level of boldness (?) It doesn't take much for them to suddenly burst out, "i'll just shoot them" in reaction to some topic that annoys. Is it usually macho BS? Probably.
There are too many of these guys for anyone to "report" for psych eval. which means they can buy a gun and clips at their convenience. For a few, the metaphor "ticking time bomb" fits. The only consolation is that they're too stupid to learn effective weapons use.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-12-11

No you didn't, little sky. You KNOW it didn't add anything to the story. You got that off some rightwingnut racist site, didn't you? In fact, the "mainstream media" DID point out Roll's judicial activities. It's just that little rightie wingnuts LOVE to play the victim! OK, little sky, you and yours are victims of insane liberal hate. There. Does that make you feel better? Sheesh. Now run along and water a tree somewhere.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-12-11

BTW, I see this a.m. that an arms maker in SC has a new AR 15 special edition, a Joe Wilson edition marked with the words "You Lie" etched on the lower. Well, isn't that special! The fun with nazis never ends. An AR 15 with the not-so-sublte message that violence against he president is warranted. Sick, sick people.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-12-11

Now, Craig, please post the leftwing equivalent. What? There are none? You don't say.



http://radioornot.com/site/?cat=89

Comment By -, 1-12-11

"(2) No evidence of from his friends that Loughner listened to talk radio or FOX News"
Loughner had no friends.
There's no evidence he listened to the radio or watched tv. If he did, I suspect there's no liberal local or syndicated radio broadcasting in Tucson. I don't watch much TV, so i guess that leaves olbermann and maddow on msnbc as only broadcast libs?

"leftist reading material such as "Mein Kampf" and "The Communist Manifesto"."
Pot smoking is statistically solid liberal choice, as crystal meth and whiskey are the rightwing preference.
But mein kampf is rightist (stromfront, metzger, white power, aryan nation, pat buchanan, conservative nazi apologists in letters to the editor, ad nauseum), and liberals are uninterested in marx and engels. Those authors are read by righties desperately digging for generationally obsolete rants.
"Heavy metal" (no longer called that, btw) has been a heartland/redstate/methstate thing since at least the early 90's. The only other choice on redstate radio is c&w;, also largely reruns from the 80's. (the nonmusical choice is ranttalk aka righttalk, but that's not musical.). People on the coasts in their 20's USUALLY listen to music that originated later (but tragically still conservative).
OTOH, the internet allows flyover kids to discover coasts kids likes...

Anyway, during the first hours of this Jan 8 news, some libs obsessed about turning Loughner into a rightie, while ALL of the righties obsessed about turning Loughner into a leftie. Both goals are silly. Loughner's a nut. His ideology was a mix of scattered extremes (alexjones, larouche, a super obscure black helicopters guy obsessed with grammar mind control theories, gold standard new world order nuttery, and something about dreams.). MOST rightwiggers just aren't quite that far gone.

BTW, regurgitating the tired RW borg talk that nazis were lefties simply makes you look stupid. You know it's propaganda.

Comment By Gabby Johnson, 1-12-11

I keep seeing that "bring a gun to a knife fight" quote from Obama's talk in Philadelphia being brought up as if a single, anecdotal and admittedly poor remark somehow equates to the 24/7 bombardment of hate speech on AM radio and constant information warfare operations of the foreign-owned and financed Fox News organization.
The Republicans with Palin as their figurative leader have taken another quote from "The Untouchables" as a central theme: Al Capone said, in the film, "You can get further with a kind word and a gun than you can with just a kind word."
It's obvious from watching her that Palin possesses amateur gun-handling skills -- but it's a powerful prop for her political persona.
After absorbing all the southern racists who left the "Democrat Party" in the civil rights era, the GOP's hunger for votes led them to embrace the black gun crowd, the anti-abortion crowd (funny how Republicans never deliver on that topic) and religious fundamentalists who are anxiously awaiting the Rapture.
At the same time they've abandoned fiscal conservatism because all those constituencies must be fed, along with the GOP's corporate masters.
Any Republican who veers from the radical right agenda is quickly RINOed out of the party, and what you wind up with a boiled down essence of hate.
It's "my way or the highway," and it's the highway to hell for this country.

Comment By Ken, 1-12-11

Now Palin claims that journalist's words and writing are inciting hatred, but fails to claim responsibility that her words and writing may do the same. Not a surprise.

Comment By big sky, 1-12-11

Yes Sir, she is correct on that one also. Nice photoshoped pic at the top of article. Is that even legal?

Comment By MDD, 1-12-11

Sadly all of the attempts to use this tragedy to furthr the liberal agenda are leaving out teh most important fact of all. Thsi very dangerous individual was not into politics in any way that I can see. He was very bizarre in hi interactions and folks were terrified. He was involved in siutations that got him picked up by law enforcemetn a number of tiems, why was he never put on a 72 hour hold for phsychiatric evaluation. Now that is a question one and all should be asking Sheriff Dupnik.
His anger at Giffords seems to date to 2007 when he asked her:"What is government if words have no meaning?" He was very angry that she did not give him the answer he wanted, and according to those who knew him carried a grudge about it.
That by the way predates the TEA party and Sarah Palin as a national figure.
By the way the photo is obviously photoshopped. Shame on New West.
If there is a lesson to be learned it is that it should be far better to require a psychiatric evaluation of individuals picked up because of complaints about their danger. It seems there were a multitude of warnings that were ignored. It is sad that anyone wants to create a political situation out of what is a psychiatric situation and ignore the true danger.

Comment By -, 1-12-11

"What is government if words have no meaning?"
looks like a restrained bushism ;-)
That by the way predates the TEA party
No. The "tea party" never existed as a political party. Various *subsets* of the gop *named* themselves "something or other minutemen". Soon after some used names like "patriot something or other", soon followed by "tea party something or other", "tp express inc", etc.
Then they pushed certain GOP candidates for nov 2010. Anyway, the popularization/worship of violence is what's relevant. RW hatetalk has been in vogue since limbaugh circa 1989. The current RW penchant for explicit violence went 'bigtime' with the savage weiner circa 1999.
and Sarah Palin as a national figure.
True. But as with the 'tea parties', her pursuits are only some specific examples. Someone above posted a sampler vid of multiple violenttalkers (IOW, not palin). The overall promotion of violence is what's relevant to the destructive phenomenon.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-12-11

ABC News has this: http://abcnews.go.com/US/tucson-shooting-friend-jared-loughner-speaks-motive-alleged/story?id=12597092&page=1

====quote====
In the meantime, a high school friend of the 22-year-old Loughner remembers a man starkly different from the unstable man with the piercing mugshot stare. ..

"He wasn't shooting people, he was shooting at the world," Osler said.

Loughner's downward spiral and increasing anger began after a high school girlfriend broke up with him, Osler said. As a teenager, Loughner turned to heavy drinking and drugs, such as the legal hallucinogen salvia, Osler said.

"He would say he was using it, and he would talk about it and say what [it] would do to him and I was like, 'Dude, that's screwed up.'" ...

Loughner's onetime friend said that politics could not have been a motive in the alleged killing.

"He did not watch TV, he disliked the news," Osler said. "He didn't listen to political radio, he didn't take sides, he wasn't on the left, he wasn't on the right."

Osler pointed to an online documentary series called "Zeitgeist" as a possible influence on the man.

The series rails on currency-based economics.

"I really think that this 'Zeitgeist' documentary had a profound impact on Jared's mindset and how he viewed that world that he lives in," Osler said.

Osler also said that Loughner's favorite quote was "Out of chaos breathes creation."

===end quote===

As I said above about pop culture influences, connect the dots.

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-12-11

Well OK then, Craig. Feel free to resume the rightwing hate mongering without guilt. (gunsights, second am. solutions, watering trees, and you lie AR 15s, etc.) But geez, ya gotta wonder when even guys like Roger Ailes say it's time to tone it down. BTW, I see that you were unable to respond to my little video above. Where is the lefty equivalent of all that hate coming from rightie politicians? What? You mean that you don't have that video? For shame.

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-12-11

Good gravy, this is still going?
Um, is anyone else struck by the feeling that Slickhead was doing a Jodie Foster? I mean, the guy is SMILING in his official mug shot.
John Hinckley didn't have any kind of political agenda, he was just a nut. Squeaky Fromme? I guess she was a Mansonite which is pretty much equivalent to homicidal nut?
Let's also remember that it's been a long time (Jonestown) since a Congresskritter has been murdered. Let's keep in mind that Giffords ain't dead yet and I'm hoping she, like all the other wounded, has a speedy and FULL recovery.

And then she loses the next election.

The fact remains, Sheriff Dupnik seems to be digging his own political grave with his unprofessional, speculative conduct. So, too, is the "mainstream media" with their attempts to muzzle the Tea Party and/or Republicans and/or anyone who would express justified irritation at a fiscally irresponsible, profoundly clueless federal government leadership...which until a few days ago was all Dem, all the time.
Finally, as for the hate talk, I have XM/Sirius. Right there next to the patriot channel 166 is 167. And some of the stuff I hear, when I want a change of pace, is the same sort of gratituous slaggery spouted by old Kiss My Grits and Hash Mark. The "real" Left is, in my view, equally if not more guilty of vitriol and hate speech.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-12-11

Pouge 'ol boy, for one to resume one has to have begun. Seems that, like causation, you have missed that too.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-12-11

Random, non political schizophrenic? His first victim wasn't random. She was a moderate Democrapic elected official targeted by the shooter. The rest of the victims could be considered random since they were shot because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-12-11

MIckey, it appears he didn't like her answer to his question back in 2007 and obsessed about it ever since. Party affiliation had nothing to do with that obsession. In the interview on GMA his friend makes it clear that drugs were a major factor.

Don't try and look at this rationally and impute that reasoning to Loughner as if that's how he decided what to do.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-12-11

The idea that a mentally ill person is completely irrational and completely unaffected by social propaganda 100% of the time is nonsense. If that were true, the mentally ill couldn't tie their shoes, pull on their pants or take a taxi.

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-12-11

Mickster, I'm disappointed by your falling into the talk trap. I know you don't like guns, but I expected more from you.
By the way, gang, the Washington Post has a timeline with a youtube video from Slickhead. Put it up full size so you can read it.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-12-11

Who says I don't like guns? I like guns and bombs even better. I just don't worship guns and bombs.

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-12-11

So you have more than you need, then?

Comment By bearbait, 1-12-11

I listened to the President speak at the Memorial in Arizona. Actually, I watched it on the tube. His message was not one of despair and let's legislate ourselves to goodness from some hell hole of evil. He was about as middle of the road as any, and a speech I would expect from someone who believes that shit like this is random and probably not always preventable. In that mind set, his message was to continue to have a national discussion as is our right in this Nation of Freemen with a Constitution to guide us. He talked about pledging allegiance to the flag with our hand over our heart. He talked about discussions without the barbs and arrows of hate. Most certainly I heard no gun control, mind control, nutcase national registers, offered as a solution to that aberration of American life that is random acts of violence. We are to look at the heros, the people who acted heroic, and find it within ourselves to also try to be heroic and do it for ourselves, our loved ones and the nation. I didn't take notes, and have no quotes. Just the general tenor of the speech. It was about coming together, and not the claptrap divisiveness preached by so many of his political party. I was impressed. Probably his first re-election speech. Maybe his legacy speech. No matter, it was well done, and spot on for the occasion. I was impressed.

It was a safe speech, and about our collective safety in a general sense. The speech was adult, fair minded, and probably a successful attempt at bringing about the beginning of the healing process. I would think that any person who wants to deride what he said, and take pot shots at his words and suggestions, should be able to withstand a shit load of criticism, all of which will be well deserved. Just my opinion. It was a speech worthy of the home State of Barry Goldwater, and one that I could very well could imagine hearing from Goldwater in the same circumstance. And I don't think Jimmy Carter would have gotten any later support if he had made a speech that was one inch to the left of what President Obama presented tonight. Whoever writes PBO's speeches (is it the guy who was Sen Baucus' chief of staff in the past?) did a fine job of taking the moral high ground, supporting our Constitution, and addressing the American people in a way that was inclusive and supportive of them. I give him an A+....

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-12-11

Craig, I apologize if I re-opened old wounds regarding military actions that you participated in. That was not my intention. I understand and respect all military service. You have my deepest respect for your service. Please accept my sincerest apology.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-12-11

I give Obama an A+ for his speech. Fit the audience and the occasion exactly. I don't see any need for "civility". Exchanging insults is part of the political process until it becomes meaningless and incantatory. Threatening and/or inciting violence against elected and appointed officials, or threatening the violent overthrow of parts of the Government, however, because their public policy views or practices differ from yours, should be off limits.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-12-11

Think the Tea Party is non violent? Think again. Check out "Some Arizona Republican Party officials resign after Tucson shooting"

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-12-11

Mick, I agree. Back in the old country when I was a wee lad, me dad used to say that the brown shirts were really nuthin' but brown shorts! He said that if they were ever actually to be confronted, they would turn their shorts to brown! (You get me drift, right?) You see, me dad didn't countenance bullies, racists, morons and dimwits. Pity that this poor fellow felt enough fear to resign. Brown shirts need to be confronted until their shorts are brown!

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-13-11

Here, Craig, cui bono. The editors of Esquire said it about as well as it's been said yet.



http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/political-violence-in-america-4834173

Comment By big sky, 1-13-11

"ESQUIRE" DEFINITION - Left wing propaganda machine......

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-13-11

Um, little sky, the article simply reinforces my earlier point. Cui bono? And yes, it's right on. Now, if you can disproves its assertions, that might be better than just yammering. But even yammering proves the article's point.

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-13-11

Gee, did Loughner actually work for Esquire? THAT's where he got the money!
American apartheid? WTF! What is Allen West, then?

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-13-11

Allen West? A real nutcase, steeped in the fascism of the military industrial complex. He's on sick dude.

Comment By Ken, 1-13-11

The comments here demonstrate how well Palin knows her base. Thanks for the laughs. and BigSky, my four year old grandaughter thanks you for the laughs as well.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-13-11

Pogue, there is not any facts you will process so I will speak to others given you delusions of cause.

What is the common thread of influence in the many acts of violence by whackadoodles like Loughner?

Drugs.

Loughner -- salvia. See my discussion above.

Squeaky Fromme — drugs http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-krassner/my-acid-trip-with-squeaky_b_252681.html

Larry Harmon — drugs http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_091/TECH_V091_S0417_P004.txt

John Hinckley — drugs http://www.health.am/psy/more/schizophrenia-typical-atypical-antipsychotic-medication/

Comment By larry kurtz, 1-13-11

From the Awl:

"The Old Man and the Sea, after all, is a blueprint for violent mayhem right up there with The Anarchist’s Cookbook—and The Phantom Tollbooth may as well be subtitled “The Turner Diaries.”

Groups such as the Freemen dub themselves “Christian patriots,” while last spring, a clutch of Christian militia members in Michigan called the Hutaree planned to stage an attack on local law enforcement as part of the run-up to the endtimes. It’s true that Loughner disavowed organized religion—writing a propos of the government’s illegitimate currency that he refused to “trust in God.” But it’s hard to know what else to call a belief system that outfits an adherent so thoroughly for citizenship in an alternative reality. As the Southern Poverty Law Center notes, the sovereign community—or as it’s sometimes known, the redemption movement—shares many affinities with the separatist subculture of the fundamentalist world (right down, it seems, to the literalist misreading of key founding scripture.)

Armed with the bogus certitudes of an alternate theory of the authentic American republic, Loughner could envision a new currency, an improved English grammar, a career as a terrorist—all while fantasizing about the unconstitutionality of the community college from which he would soon be suspended."

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-13-11

Craig, you're amazing. No, I truly mean that. You're as teflon as Reagan. Reason veritably rolls off you. (Do you have Alzheimers too?) But please, before presenting even more irrelevant examples followed by segues into endless non sequitars, just answer the damn question. Please. Cui bono? I think we all know.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-14-11

Larry, instead of Awl perhaps y'all should take heed of President Obama:

====quote====

If, as has been discussed in recent days, their death helps usher in more civility in our public discourse, let us remember it is not because a simple lack of civility caused this tragedy–it did not–but rather because only a more civil and honest public discourse can help us face up to the challenges of our nation in a way that would make them proud.

===end quote===

Y'all get that "it did not" part? Pougue, y'all can take off your tin foil hats now.

Comment By larry kurtz, 1-14-11

Loughner is another product of the failure of red states.
http://interested-party.blogspot.com/2011/01/domestic-terrorism-awake-in-red-states.html

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-14-11

Clever, Craig. Now, should I post Angle, Limpbuagh, Palin, Beck? Very scientific. But you prove exactly my point. When lefties are civil and righties violent, cui bono?

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-14-11

Pogue, I find you don't have rational points, merely ravings much like Loughner: http://theweek.com/article/index/211108/9-things-weve-learned-about-jared-lee-loughner

===quote===
1. He didn't watch TV and disliked news
Zach Osler, a high school friend of Loughner's, told ABC's "Good Morning America" that the alleged shooter was not obsessed with politics or the news. In fact, Loughner didn't even watch TV. "He disliked the news," said Osler. "He didn't listen to political radio. He didn't take sides. He wasn't on the left, he wasn't on the right."

2. His parents are loners...

3. He was a bad poet
Loughner took an advanced poetry-writing class last year, for which he composed odes to "bland tasks such as showering, going to the gym and riding the bus," reports CBS News. In class, Loughner would read his poems in a "wild 'poetry slam' style," grabbing his crotch like a hip-hop star and "jumping around the room." During one class, he burst out laughing when another student read a poem about abortion. He was finally ejected from the class after talking about "strapping guns to babies."

4. He loved conspiracy theories
Loughner's favorite movies include Loose Change, the 9/11 "Truther" conspiracy movie, and he was obsessed with supposed government cover-ups. He believed that the U.S. government was attempting to create a unified monetary system to impose control on the rest of the world, and that it was attempting to brainwash the population by "controlling grammar." He also believed the moon landings were faked.

5. He was a videogame fan

6. A break-up may have sent him over the edge...

7. He was a heavy drug user
Various former friends and associates claim that Loughner became a frequent drug user in recent years — consuming "marijuana, cocaine, psilocybin mushrooms," and salvia, a legal hallucinogen, on a regular basis. His application to join the U.S. Army was denied after he failed a drug test.

8. He was a dog lover...

9. He was pulled over by police on the day of the shooting...
===end quote===

Deal with reality.

Comment By Dewey, 1-14-11

Maybe those of you defending the Right Wing and Tea Party and that hero of our times, General Conservative, in thinking that airwaves and media polluted with right wing dogma and hate speech having nothing to do with Loughner's little rampage should take note of what happened in Tucson two days after the shooting. Billboards erected by Tucson's most inflammatory right wing AM talk radio station were hastily taken down , including one along the Interstate just five miles away from the shooting site.

The billboards said " Rush Limbaugh ...Straight Shooter " KNST 790 ( a Clear Channel affiliate ). The billboard's design featured graphics of bullet holes .

Ooops.

You really have to ask : if the media climate had not heated up so fiercely with the rise of conservative talk and Fox News and right wing punditry spun out of control since 1992 , would Loughner have taken his first shot directly a a Democratic Jewish woman Congressman. Don't wackos like this usually take it out on schools or some other entity that directly offended him ?

Loughner was one deranged guy holding a gun , but the distinct choice of target and when- where -why indicates there were many fingers on the trigger. A conscious act driven by a tortured subconscious. "The voices...the voices made me do it."

Democrats, liberals, and socialists don't rabblerouse like this. The Right Wing has some soul searching to do , and atonement would be nice. Sarah Palin has not been helpful here. The very media she decries is the same gun she herself is also holding and firing, analogously. Before the rise of Right Wing Radio and All Conservative All the Time cable video, and Tea Bagger, it was rightly said that the medium is the message. But these days the message is also the medium. And that's dangerous. We even see some of it right here in this rural backwater of NewWest.net's comment forums.

What's the difference between the barrel of a Glock .45 and Sarah Palin's mouth reading from a scripted eleprompter? Lipstick.

Comment By Christina Marie, 1-14-11

Bob,
Please ask yourself how many "troubled" "unstable" "mentally ill," loners are there sitting in their moldy, dirty apartments reading your vile sputem and plotting to take their Prius with the "coexist" sticker on it and head to Alaska to do harm to Mrs. Palin or any other conservative along the way?? Would her blood be on your hands, would you take any responsibility? I can answer that... of course not, because free speach gives you the right to say whatever you want and "that crazy person" had his reasons... right? So please spare us all your hypocritical politics, trust me your opinion means nothing to me!

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-14-11

Dewey, remember when the Left went crazy blaming the Right over the hanged Kentucky census worker? Andrew Sullivan and other barking dogmas of Lefty journalists and pundits tried to point the finger at the Right, specifically Beck and Bachmann. Turned out he committed suicide for the insurance money.

The Left’s “Chutzpah” continually exploits new opportunities to keep their fear and hate bandwagon rolling and their true believers seething and in line. Truth be damned.

Comment By Dave Skinner, 1-14-11

The thing about all "progressive" legislative ideas, is they would never pass in a civil, rational body engaging in civil, rational discourse...

They can only RAHM it through in a crisis.

That all said, here's best wishes not only for all the wounded, but specifically for Gabrielle Giffords. If she recovers a hundred percent and returns to office, that's the best outcome.

And if she goes right back to doing Congress on the Corner, that's best of all.

Comment By the real mike, 1-15-11

Well, Skinner, I have to look back on FDR, his leadership in bringing us out of a decidedly "uncivil" and "unprogressive" depression, his wisdom in instituting "rational" restraints over the nefarious financial manipulators who caused it, his strength in leading us to victory over fascism and in making us a global superpower, and his "progressive" vision in establishing greater security in our food and drug safety, building the foundations of our wealth by ensuring the availability of public education, championing the use of technology to ensure national security, and sharing resources to encourage global development and thereby enhance world stability. I guess that, according to your deeply educated world view, these and "all 'progressive' legislative ideas... would never pass in a civil, rational body engaging in civil, rational discourse..."

Do you think about or even begin to realize what you're saying ...ever? ...or do you just say it?

Comment By bearbait, 1-15-11

So how did we get from a college education that could be earned by a summer job setting chokers on Federal old growth logs (tuition at a state college in the $100 a term range, room and board $250 a term max), and a work study job paying $1.00 an hour for 16 hours a week, to where it takes the price of a new house to just get a state university education??? Did we progressively get to providing too much for too many, at too high of prices, with budget breaking retirements, medical cost pickups, and Davis Bacon building costs and entitlements and nanny state Buttinski forays into personal lives? Did we get too progressive and relieve a third of our population of ever having to work for a dime, depending on the other two thirds, and even then, the top one percent paying a substantial segment of the total cost?

Roosevelt's economic boosts by public spending put food on tables, kept roofs over heads, but did not end the economic malaise. WWII and the united effort to win a war put everyone to work because 14 million men in uniform put a hole in the work force, which put a substantial number of women to work in their place. Two incomes. And rationed goods. People saved and the US Govt spent their savings on war materials.

The most amazing benefit of the Depression, and the war that ended it, was that the whole of the process was an organized, quasi-military, and then full bore military, chain of command organization that expect and demanded a level of obedience and thought from every level of responsibility. From the CCC camps, the WPA projects, to the military and the logistics of building 10,000 ships, 125,000 airplanes, 500,000 tanks, all the stuff of military life and the equipment to wage war, there was an ongoing MBA project for every officer behind the front lines all the way to the Capitol. When the war ended, the US had all the people in place, trained, to run any and all kinds of business and bureaucracy. That is what made this country the economic leader of the world. Our factories were standing at the end of the war, and were quickly put back into civilian use. But the organizational training was still with the personnel. People knew how to operate as a team. People knew how to plan critical path process. That collective experience of The War made the factories hum. And I doubt if we still have that. I think that a whole lot of the group effort deal has eroded, and it is now about me, and I did this, and we must recognize the individual, and it is about self worth, and self confidence. The narcissist nation of numbskulls pounding their chests when they do what they are paid to do.

So I will give you the Roosevelt legacy, albeit one he inherited as the tyrants of the Axis nations were not taking the USA seriously and foolishly went about trying to conquer the world under the flag of national socialism, and Roosevelt was thrown into the fray by Pearl Harbor. Nothing he did before the war was effectively going to end the economic malaise. Just like the housing bubble and the dot com before that, the Great Depression was about speculation in the stock markets and the loss of markets as Europe recovered from WWI and no longer needed US aid and goods. That farming had mechanized between the wars did not help provide jobs. That an agrarian economy over produced did not help. That banks failed as good loans went bad, was eerily familiar in the past three years. That retail banking went from "bank by the numbers" to the free wheeling unrestrained banking of the 1990s, and the end result was once again bank failures, although this time covered by deposit insurance for most small accounts. At least this time there was a train of succession for banks, and service was never interrupted, as all takeovers seem to occur at 5:00pm on friday, and on monday morning, a new bank is running your old bank. And to think that social security is on the chopping block due to its cost and the inability of folks to earn enough money to pay the taxes to support the SSI for future generations. Congress, which has been mostly Democrat for most of the last 60 years, used SSI as a Ponzi to fund pork barrel spending and garner re election chits by providing gifts of other people's money. The Democrat party has been the leveler of the Roosevelt legacy. Progressives need to look in the mirror to see the enemy. It is they who overspent the community fortune. On either side of the aisle. And why not, when you can borrow trillions and still get re elected??

Not too many jumping out windows. Bernie Madoff's son offed himself, a self inflicted honor killing. It took over 50 years for banks to go from highly regulated to virtually non regulated, and wherever the center is seems to be passed as the pendulum swings one way or t'other. But we do self center, eventually, and it is always a painful process. Obama is doing it as I write. And always there is finger pointing, and yelling, and threats, and a general lowering of the bar of civility. We do survive, these United States. We do survive, and we do have our bumps and nicks, and bruising of the past comity during our national discussions. Our country does not need mandated, legislated additions to law to tone down the level of rhetoric. What it really needs is more jobs. People with jobs who can house and feed their families are happier than people who are on some sort of dole and not "getting by." I often wonder if Congress is aware of that concept. JOBS. Jobs will tone down the rhetoric. The vitriol. The anger. Work at finding ways to create jobs, and the restiveness will go away of its own volition. Until election time, and then your mythical House member, Rep. Xavier Onnassis, will build a fire of discontent, throw gas on it, and then blame his or her opponent. Mine was into the newspaper on sunday last sounding the alarm that Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck were the instigators of the Tucson shoot 'em up. I would hope his wife will take the time, now that she was defeated in her quest to continue his spot in the Oregon legislature, to braid his tail and clean his shoes, so that at the least, he is a presentable horse's ass. So far, all of the letters to the editor in the local paper, the one of the State Capitol, have been critical of his spewing of lefty vitriol. The left leaning editors evidently have chosen which letters to print, as they do, and none defending his assault on the rights of free speech have been printed. Just maybe it was because he spoke with zero knowledge of the facts, and was very much the parrot to the Pima country Sheriff's ill advised rant. I wonder when the locals tell the Sheriff that it appears his department was not doing its job, and maybe the laws on mental illness need attention, as the cops stopped the kid earlier in the day, and since none, nobody, had taken an official stance on his outbursts of insanity in public places, he could not be officially held on any charges until he had done some reprehensible act. Which he did. And the crowd got him when he had to reload. I guess, as has been hinted, that whoever got his gun told the shooter that maybe the answer was for him to shoot the creep right now. And had better thoughts about it. Thank you, for that, who ever you were. Now we get to see to what extent the progressives will go to help a mentally deranged life time doper, slacker, and faux philosopher. Gee. Their kinda guy.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-15-11

Is this the same FDR that turned away the St. Louis and sent the Jews aboard who were fleeing Hitler back to Germany and their deaths? Is this the same FDR the rounded up Japanese Americans, confiscated their property, and sent them to prison camps?

BTW, there is no better assessment of FDR's impact on the depression, than his Treasury Secretary, Henry Morgenthau. HM said: "“I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. … And an enormous debt to boot!”

The beatification of FDR is utter nonsense.

Comment By Mickey Garcia, 1-15-11

If John Paul is awarded wings, so should FDR be awarded wings. Blaming everything on spendthrift socialism is bunk. The U.S. went deep into debt fighting and winning WWII. When the war ended the U.S. sent any vet who wanted go to college and gave any vet who wanted one a VA house loan and stimulated the European Economy with the Marshall Plan and started dumping big bucks into the cold war. The Government made all that money back and then some because the economy was roaring in the 50s and 60s. No Canadian Banks went tits up during this recent economic fiasco because the Canadian Government put a limit on Canadian Bank risk taking and all Canadians are covered by a universal health care plan that is a damn site cheaper per capita than health care in the U.S.

Comment By Todd, 1-15-11

Craig, that is the Roosevelt I heard my parents cussing when I was a little kid, not the one real mike seemed to know of. Roosevelt was the one that decided working for money did not entitle anyone to be able to keep it, when others wanted it.

Comment By Jedediah, 1-15-11

Thats the guy, todd.
Just like the communist Obama who wanted to redistribute wealth so there might no longer be any hunger in America.

Comment By Ken, 1-15-11

Maybe there should be an article on whether Palin appologists will grow up. It would necessarily be very short.

Comment By Craig Moore, 1-15-11

Ken, what apologists?

Perhaps you should grow up, as in mature, and see what's going on: http://www.verumserum.com/?p=20646

===quote===
Palin gets a full court press leading to death threats and Van Hollen gets a complete pass for essentially the same behavior. Somebody out there want to tell me there’s no liberal media?
===end quote===

The chutzpah of those like yourself to cast aspersions in only one direction is the motivation for much of the concerns expressed here contrary to the argument of this post.

Even President Obama doesn't buy your BS. He said:

"
If, as has been discussed in recent days, their death helps usher in more civility in our public discourse, let us remember it is not because a simple lack of civility caused this tragedy–it did not–but rather because only a more civil and honest public discourse can help us face up to the challenges of our nation in a way that would make them proud."

Notice the "-it did not-".

Comment By Pogue Mahone, 1-15-11

Keep running, dodging, weaving, and bobbing, Craig. Verbal pugilism is NOT your forte. Please, just answer the one dam question. Cui bono? Is it really that hard to admit the truth? And bearbait, take a history class or two sometime. Oh, and BTW, you do NOT get credits for listening to Limpaguh and Beck!

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