guest column / by rose habib

How Many Starbucks Is Enough?

All of this as New West asks us to enter their reader survey to be put in a drawing for an Amazon.com gift certificate. I think the intelligentcia should pick on Kinkos. Nothing will change downtown, and I seriously doubt that there is much overlap between patrons of The Raven and those of Sbucks. I love The Raven... best coffee period. The energy spent fuming over Sbucks is better directed elsewhere. They make money selling "coffee" to people (no accounting for taste). Don't like it, don't go there.

This reminds me of Yogi Berra's famous saying, "Nobody goes there anymore; it's too crowded." I've written a blog entry on the topic here.

Correction, my blog entry is here.

I love the coffee shops downtown as much as the next "local", I even managed one for a time, and I am happy to see Starbucks moving into downtown. I'm still going to frequent my favorite places downtown, but I'll add Starbucks to my list. I worked for them for over five years while I was in college and grad school, and they treat their employees fantastically. I worked twenty hours a week, had health, vision, and dental insurance, stock and 401k. When I left the company last year, I was making well over $10/hour. Show me one place downtown that can do that. Missoulians are die-hard loyals when it comes to coffee, so don't think all the local businesses are going to go under. Starbucks started out as a local coffee shop too. But they had a great business plan, and they implemented it well. And yes, tourists will go there because it's something they know, and are comfortble and familiar with. I used to frequent local coffee shops when I'd go on vacation too, and more times than not, my coffee tasted like crap. So, yeah, now I go to the "evil empire" as I have heard some call it because I know what I'm going to get. And I'm okay with that. And if you aren't, nobody is forcing you to go there.

Marisa is a pie-eyed optimist, and doesn't know much about Missoula or Missoulians.

The recent (past 5 years) influx of rich yuppies to Missoula is what Starbucks is serving. If these newly minted Yuppie Transplants reflect what Missoula is or will be, it's time to either draw the battle lines or simply give up and let Missoula become Boulder.

Among the people I've known in the time I've lived here (10 years) I can't count but a single one person who likes Starbucks. That person defends Starbucks on the simple principle that "Starbucks coffee is better than Conoco coffee". Well, if such lowest-common-denominator analysis should win the day, we can simply order all the locally owned and locally-oriented businesses to leave town for some pabulum merchants who will sell more of the same strip-mall food that pseudo-Missoulians love to buy.

Marisa sounds like she fell in love with big city bogus life, and needs to return to it. Sorry, Marisa, but some of us like Missoula for its individuality. Starbucks is another nail in the coffin of individuality. The coffin was built first by the Lambros Family when it built Southgate Mall. Then the Reserve Street Box Store Hell added the cozy velour interior.

Now, with 6 Starbucks locations built over a 3 year period, Starbucks is nailing the lid shut.

Welcome to the death of Missoula. Thanks for hastening it, Marisa.

What coffee shops have closed up so far since Starbucks started opening up shops in Missoula? I know of three starbucks in Missoula, liquid- where are the other three you refer to?

Marisa likes Starbucks once in awhile, and they are good to their employees, there's no denying that. In a town where I've already worked for one local business that had trouble even PAYING its employees for the hours they worked, a place that offers benefits to entry-level types is a breath of fresh air.

And it is consistent, which is more than I can say for at least two local coffee places I've been to recently. Consistently mediocre, maybe, but consistently clean, un-intimidating and non-surly as well, and that matters to me when I'm going to spend 15 minutes in a place consuming their product. I don't need to take the "How Missoula are you?" quiz any more often than I already do.

No retail establishment will ever kill Missoula unless people shop there. Don't blame the business.

that was either clever in an evil sense, or oversimple. don't really know you, so I don't know which applies.

I'm not sure where you get your thinking on consumer buying habits... nor your thinking on what causes a business to close. slow attrition is as deadly to a Missoula business as a wholesale stoppage.

as to the rest of your post, I don't know where you are going with that "Missoulian test," I"m only talking about those whom I've known in 10 years. but I would guess that you are a yuppie who felt offended by my observations, or you enjoy Starbucks coffee for other reasons.

if you think that market saturation cannot successfully drive out small business competition, you are either quite naive, or you are stupid.

your choice.

the 6 locations:

Pine & Higgins (former Bike Doctor)

South & Reserve (ShopKo parking lot)

South Hills Albertsons

Grant Creek Road & US 90

Safeway at south end of town

and one other grocery store location that I don't recall... either a Safeway or an Albertsons.

as to their employees, there is more to quality of life than whether an employee is paid well.

your oversimple view of "benign market capitalism" reeks of naivete. I'm voting that you're naive, and not stupid. but I could be wrong, you might be quite dim.

PS: you forgot to mention that Starbucks coffee is pretentiously named, over-expensive, and consumes a lot more disposable paper than other alternatives.

but I guess none of that matters if you feel "prestigiously satisfied" at your upscale choice of shops.

thanks for telling me that Boulder and Seattle is what Missoula should become. thanks a whole lot. now how about you go back to your idolized "big city" and take Marisa and the other Yuppies with you?

I guess I was referring to the actual standalone locations, not the "proudly serving" types in other retail places.

I'm not being naive nor do I profess any belief in "benign capitalism" there's no such thing, any more than there is benign gravity. Sure, market saturation can and will drive competitors out of business. I'm not saying Starbucks won't outcompete anybody, I just haven't seen it happen yet in Missoula. I haven't seen patrons of the Break et al. moving next door en masse. As far as the concept brought up in the article about needing to capture the "Tourist Dollar" in the summer, that is so weak. Capture the student dollar (13,500 here for 9-10 months out of the year, last I checked) The "tourist season" pales by comparison.

There's a lot more to quality of life than a decent wage or health care, but coffee at the Raven or the Break is just as unobtainable as coffee at Starbucks when you don't have a decent wage or when your unisured ass ends up in the hospital. Face it folks, coffee is a LUXURY item. I've gone without seeing the inside of a coffee joint for moths at a time when I was broke. Not so for a grocery store.

Last I checked, cups at the Break were just as papery as those at Starbucks, and Starbucks was just as willing to top up your personal mug as the Break was.

Actually, I think the best thing that could happen to Missoula would be if folks here would realize what is special about the place, but then equally, travel around a bit and see how much Missoula has in COMMON with lots of other small cities, and where Missoula falls far short of other cities its size as well, in areas such as housing affordibility, living wage, diversity, etc. Want pretentious- give me any business with "Missoula" in the name that likes to bank on the "uniqueness factor" of Missoula.

Try this- Listen to the Trail for a day "a radio station as unique as Missoula" OK, now fire up your ITunes and listen to WMVY- that mvyradio under the "eclectic" menu header. Listen for a day, and tell me how different the playlist is- that's right, Ted Kennedy's ritzy playland listens to the same music as Missoula!

Missoula is not as unique as it thinks it is, and therein lies the problem. Missoula thinks it is too good for Starbucks, and deserves comeuppance for its collective snobbery in that regard.

Missoula: not rural anymore but scared as hell to be urban.

well I guess you sure told me, with your yuppie attitude and your desire for urban amenities.

I suggest you move to your urban nirvana and stop cheering the paving and malling of Missoula... there are thousands of urban "nirvanas" of the sort you want Missoula to become. why can't you and Starbucks and every other pretentious, Blackberry and cell phone in public using, SUV driving, highfalutin' attitude havin' pretentious fools get the phoque out of here and go somewhere that welcomes you, huh? why do you need to convert Missoula to your version of nirvana? why can't you leave it alone?

as to the rest of your silly pseudo-professorial tripe... there are more independent coffee places besides Break Espresso and The Raven. and if you got "attitude" at any of them, I submit it's YOUR attitude that they sensed... maybe you were wearing too much Abercrombie and Fitch or Ralph Lauren or whatever you Yuppies are into these days. maybe you drove up in your Saab or Beemer or Benz or Hummer and expected them to roll out the red carpet for you. maybe you think that because of your income and "urbane aura" and Yuppie patina, they should have recognized your superiority, bowed down and genuflected, and served you before anyone else, before their regular customers who've been supporting them since they opened, etc.

Missoula is not "scared" to be urban... but long time Missoulians who like Missoula without the pretense are DISGUSTED with attitudes such as yours, and that more than anything explains the "attitude" you got at any place besides Starbucks. Starbucks employees HAVE to be faux-polite, or they lose their jobs. Independent businesses can choose to snub yuppie poseurs, and I applaud them for so doing.

Get thee to Boulder, cell phone implanter.

The ad hominem is boring. Everybody's 10 feet tall on the internet, I guess. Ralph Lauren? Beemer? Jeez, even your stereotypes are out of date. I'm done here, unless anybody ELSE wants to talk about Starbucks, downtown Missoula, the economy, etc. I don't have time to waste on name calling. Bye.

10 feet tall? are you talking about physical interaction of a fistfight sort? man, not only are you a troggo yuppie prick, you think you're a badazz.

your denigration and then criticism of "ad hominem" reveals your rank hypocrisy. again, how about you explain why Missoula "is not unique"?

the only way you could say that is to be one of those stupid yuppie troggo jagoffs who spend all their time in the office or in a yuppie "upscale eatery". anyone who has a life outside work and yuppie posing knows what makes Missoula unique. it's really no mystery.

you're a troll. a piece of yuppie coprolitic detritus. get the phoque out of this town. take your Star#ucks lovin' friends with you. take your ugly attitude with you. and please, take your cell phone and SUV with you.

Wow, vitriol.

Ok, well, as someone who lives in Boulder, I feel like I should be offended. But then again, I've only lived here for a few months, so I guess it's not that important. I've never been to Missoula, but I've been to plenty of local coffee shops that are slowly being defeated by Starbucks. I think the bottom line is, it's scary for business owners striving to create a unique and location-specific atmosphere to watch a mega-chain like Starbucks come in and steal business without even trying. That's what Independent Business Alliances are for though--they offer incentives to buy local, and they publicize the importance of local dollars going to local businesses. There's no question, I think, that Starbucks hurts local business. The question should be, how can they turn that around?

And just to weigh in (I can't resist) on the surliness and snobbery that sometimes (SOMETIMES, don't flame me for a conditional please) accompanies service at a indie coffee shop--I have experienced it myself. And I don't have a Beemer. Hell, even when I had dreadlocks, it happens. That's what you get when you underpay and overwork employees. Nothing to do with local vs. national.

Based on what was said here "liquified viscera" by far wins the award for the person I dont want to meet or respect. For someone who complains about folks with attitude, look in the mirror, your's is as big and nasty as what you are railing against.

To me all coffee shop coffee is too expensive, I just make my own the way I like it.

I could support no Starbucks specifically downtown if there is a general policy in favor of local ownership there as a city economic development strategy and it is legal and the council votes that way. Apparently they can do business there legally so give them business or don't, everyone their own choice. Or work to change the law if you feel passionately.

To clarify I respect "liquified viscera"'s opinions on the topic itself but think running down others personally with different opinions was not respectable and hurt his own case quite a bit.

I don't generally get coffee at Starbucks, because I like supporting local business. But here's a tip: when trying to refute that the argument against "a fashion statement from the local intelligensia" is false, don't argue later about "coffee education". The whole concept of a "educating the public about coffee" is a) something that I manage to hear everywhere this is brought up and b) the most highbrow craptastic bunch of garbage that I can imagine. Do you think those untrendy hillbilly's at Wal Mart have been "educated" that much about coffee? I didn't think so. But then, we never would step foot in that place would we.

While I'm on a roll.
One of my acquaintances and her neighbors in San Francisco (I'll be moving back to Missoula soon) managed to keep a Starbucks from going up in their neighborhood here by protesting and haggling the Board of Supervisors. The anti-Starbucks movement is huge here, as I'm sure you can imagine. The amount of press this received for one boggles my mind. We live in an elite society that buries African genocides on the back page and puts a successful campaign against corporate gourmet coffee on the front page.
Second, you might notice around here that the "hip" people generally staff the local independent coffee shops, with the most cutting edge music in the background and a general ambiance that is pleasing to an elite class. Starbucks meanwhile, appears corporate like a strip mall establishment, and staffs people on the lowest economic rung who, incidentally, happen to generally be minorities in this city. So, to sum it up, what you end up having here is a bunch of rich white yuppies who don't want a Starbucks on their block protesting against the only place around who would employ most of these people (who are mostly minorities). Sometimes it's scary to see what people don't notice on the cover of the Chronicle.
Missoula has it's minority "class" if not ethnic diversity. If you go to a Starbucks you'll probably see some of them working there. They also work on North Reserve and Brooks St.

Small town bred, born and raised Montana girl here. I no longer live in my beautiful home state, and probably won't due to the fact that it's getting pretty damn expensive. I want to put in my 2 shiny cents. Liquified Viscera doth protest too much. You might find a blackberry totin' SUV drivin' dude behind all the fancy angry words. For all you who think your town is different and better and more unique than any other town ever (nah nah nah nah nah nah) you are wrong. Missoula is Boulder is Santa Fe is San Diego. If you want to live in a truly unique place, go to Kennett Square, PA, or Rugby, TN, or hell, Sandpoint, Idaho is the closest. Damn, it has a Starbucks, too. What are you gonna do? Whine about it? If you want to support the local (and I agree, mostly surly) coffee shops, then do just that. If you like the consistency and familiarity of S-bucks, go there. Search out the coffee, service, and store you like the best, go there and stop bitching about it.

As for "urban nirvana" Missoula offers exactly that and you can't argue with it. As long as Montana is glorified as the "last best place", people will want to come. If you don't like it, viscera, you can move to a quieter little town on the highline, somewhere Starbucks will never, ever go.

Well I am not going to be a hypocrite and say that I have never traveled down the starbucks path, drinking there Misto / Cafe au Lait. Eww I hated myself for it. I felt as if I just received my members only snob card, and now the rest of the snooty social club felt the need to come converse with me about how they love there starbucks, and asking me how long have I been drinking it like it was the best kept secret of the land, making fun of everyone who hasn't made the cross over to starbucks, speaking to me as if they were the teacher and I were the student mentoring me of the differnt types of flavors. Then talking about starbucks as if it were an oasis for the coffee drinking community. I get fifteen minutes of quite time, and I made the mistake of going into one of these automaton coffee shops. Needless to say, since that mind boggling experience, I like to think that I have been on the front lines of the anti starbucks movement. So for everyone who feels the same as I do and for all of you starbucks fans, here’s some food for thought -- have you seen the new Eight O’Clock coffee commercials at http://www.eightoclock.com? Eight O’Clock Coffee’s Original Ground Coffee was preferred over Starbucks® House Blend Ground Coffee in blind taste tests -- beat that! :)

yo folks,

It doesn't make a difference if starbucks is in town or not. They don't serve good coffee. I've "studied" coffee these last few years more than I studied in college. I take vacations to Seattle just for coffee vacations and can say with certainty that the only coffee shop here that could compete over there is the Raven. Other shops...Break, Le Petit, can throw out a good shot now and again, but can't do it over and over. It's the people that make the coffee as well...and they don't seem to care as much. Others, Liquid Planet - I'm talking to you, can claim they have good coffee, but you might as well be drinking motor oil. It's that bad....time and time again.

So it makes no difference whether it's a Starcrack or Pony Espresso, if you really want good coffee, it's the Raven. But you better hurry, they close in a week.