New West Feature
Will Closing the ‘Snowmobile Loophole’ Lead to Shutting Down All Motorized Rec on Public Lands?
To snowmobile enthusiasts, a new petition to regulate use on National Forest land sounds like an old agenda to shut them out of the backcountry.By Tim Sprinkle, 11-01-10
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| When are snowmobiles like other off-road vehicles when it comes to public lands? That's the $22-billion question. | |
The battle over backcountry access is back on.
This time, the Winter Wildlands Alliance, a nonprofit organization dedicated to human-powered snow sports, has taken the lead, filing a petition with the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Forest Service related to the way snowmobiles are regulated on National Forest lands. Their argument? That over-snow vehicles (aka snowmobiles) should fall under the same oversight rules that govern off-road use in the summer.
In other words, they feel it is time to close the so-called “snowmobile loophole.”
“This is really about saying, ‘Listen, snowmobiles are off-road vehicles.’ Let’s get rid of this clause that deals with them differently and just manage them like all other off-road vehicles,” says Mark Menlove, executive director of the Winter Wildlands Alliance. “We’re going to be proactive and design areas where snowmobile use is appropriate, but there will be areas of the winter forest that are closed to motorized use just as they are in the summer.”
Some 90 other recreation and conservation groups have signed onto the petition, which seeks to amend the Forest Service’s 2005 Travel Management Rule. That rule, according to Menlove, was instituted in an effort to better manage ATV and motorcycle use in the National Forests, but left out specific guidelines for winter management.
“There is still a clause in there that allows the responsible official at the local level to propose changes to the winter-use rule, at which point all the procedural elements of the travel management plan come into play, but it is completely up to their discretion,” he says.
Sean Stevens with Oregon Wild, one of the groups that signed on in support of the petition, says that carving out an exemption for over-snow travel really doesn’t make sense when you consider the impact that snowmobiles can have in the backcountry.
“Our general take is that motorized use, whether in the summer or the winter, tends to be noisier, more dangerous, and more damaging to our wildlands than more traditional outdoor recreation pursuits,” he says. “A planning process to figure out where it is and is not appropriate for snowmobiles to go on the National Forest will help both snowmobilers and traditional outdoor enthusiasts by reducing conflict between users and protecting important and sensitive places.”
USERS ARE WARY
Not surprisingly, talk like that has snowmobilers worried and has generated some stiff opposition to the petition, especially in the West where snowmobiling is a popular and profitable activity.
“The Winter Wildlands group and all the other people that are involved with this petition are just anti-snowmobile,” says Robbie Holman, president of the Montana Snowmobile Association. “The only reason they’re doing this is so that, if it prevails, they can start in on limiting numbers, perhaps like they did in Yellowstone. Eventually the goal is to have no motorized recreation on national lands.”
As it stands, Holman explains, about 98 percent of the public forests in Montana are closed to snowmobiles. In the Flathead National Forest near his home, for instance, snowmobilers have access for only 131 days of the year and only then on about 2 percent of the land.
“The thing is, there are differences between summertime and wintertime. Certainly with four-wheelers and motorcycles, designated routes make sense, since they’re touching the ground and disturbing the dirt. But where we ride, we’re probably 4 to 5 feet above the ground, so there’s no environmental reason to keep us on designated routes like they do in the summer; it’s just two different things,” says Holman.
Gregg Mumm, executive director of the Pocatello, Idaho-based BlueRibbon Coalition, is concerned about unnecessary new regulations, pointing to the long history of successful snowmobile use all over the West.
“Snowmobiles have been successfully managed for years in cooperation with state clubs and associations,“ he says. “If there was ever a pattern of sound management practices that work it would be the management of snowmobiles. This is yet another salvo in the effort to move motor recreation from public lands; same agenda different venue.”
In addition, he says, issues like this are rarely as simple as they seem.
“Interest groups have been after snowmobiles since the beginning of the management process, and unfortunately experience teaches us that the Winter Wildlands Alliance and their supporters will advance the interests of their well-monied constituencies at the expense of jobs and rural communities that will suffer if they receive the closures they’re seeking.”
REALITY OF REGULATION
But is that true? Is this really about eliminating snowmobiles entirely and turning public lands over to the hikers and skiers?
The Winter Wildlands Alliance naturally says “no,” arguing the real focus here is on leveling the playing field for all users.
“In no way are we suggesting that snowmobiles should be eliminated or that they don’t have a place on Forest Service land,” says Menlove. “It’s a popular form of winter recreation and it has a place, it’s just not something that needs to be every place. The idea that this is an effort to eliminate snowmobiles everywhere is just absurd.”
As it stands, he says, there are a few forest units that have elected to develop their own winter travel plans, though less than half a dozen have complete plans in place. “Even the most restrictive ones still leave most of the forest open to snowmobilers,” he says.
But BlueRibbon’s Mumm has a point. Snowmobiling is a significant economic driver in many parts of the rural West—think sled sales, tour operations, maintenance, etc.—and further regulation would likely take a bite out of that income stream.
This isn’t a small constituency we’re talking about, either. According to the International Snowmobile Manufacturers Association, there are about 1.65 million registered snowmobiles in the U.S., accounting for some $22 billion in economic activity annually. Add in Canada and you’re looking at another 765,000 snowmobiles and another $6 billion U.S. In addition, more than 90,000 full-time North American jobs are generated by the snowmobile industry.
And these are active users. The average snowmobiler rides more than 1,400 miles per year and spends some $4,000 annually on snowmobile-related recreation.
LOOKING AHEAD
For now, however, this is all still just talk. The Winter Wildlands Alliance’s petition has been making the rounds in Washington since August and the organization is still waiting to hear if the USDA and the Forest Service intend to move forward with their proposals. Even if the agencies do decide to act, there is still at least a year-long process of public hearings, debates and approvals ahead before any new regulations would take effect.
Still, the effort’s backers are optimistic.
“We think it’s a good time for this,” Menlove says. “Since all of these forests and their various users and stakeholders have just gone though the travel planning process for summer use, that should be a real advantage when it comes to getting the winter plans together more expediently. We think it makes perfect sense to move on this sooner rather than later.”
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Comments
It's a cheap talk trick just the same as the Brady Bunch saying they don't want to eliminate privately-held firearms. Yah right.
No. Of course not.
The FS has abdicated their responsibility to effectively manage snowmobiles - just like they had abdicated on summer OHV use until 2005. Snowmobile rules were put in place in the 70s when the 45 hp machines couldn't leave a groomed trail without getting stuck, now 200 hp powder sleds can tear up entire landscapes in extreme terrain in minutes. Regulation hasn't kept up with technology. In many places close to communities, reckless high marking and abusive rider behavior are the norm.
The decision to exempt snowmobiles from the 2005 OHV rule was political - it's time to correct that oversight. Thanks Winter Wildlands!
Sleds don't tear up landscapes. They are above the landscape, on this white substance that I believe is called "snow."
Never mind the skiers who use sleds creatively.
Whatever the case, the impacts are ephemeral and insignificant. WWA is just trying to game the court system like Bloomberg did.
Many northern national forests have done so--Lewis and Clark, Flathead, Lolo, Helena (Lincoln still in works) --with millions of acres and thousands of miles of trails for snowmobile use-- But by examining which areas are well-suited they have also protected key wildlife and quiet winter areas --mountain goat winter ranges, wolverine denning areas.
These are big forests with plenty of room for quiet winter refuges as well as areas for snowmobiling.
WWA is asking that winter recreation be well-managed. I agree
How will this affect Canada?
I don't even own a snowmobile, but I can say that they stay out of the winter ranges & don't have a major affect on the landscape.
After what happened to the Wolf thing here in MT, I am a little more than irritated with making changes to our lifestyle. I can tell you it is not a born-and-raised Montanan wanting to make all these changes.
Get a LIFE!
The comments here claim that snowmobiles are always 4-5 feet above the ground, but that's just ignorant. Surely there are places where you're crossing a small stream, a muddy flat, or crushing sapling trees and plants that may be unseen below several feet of snow but have just as much of a right to live as you do.
It also seems like snowmobiles make winter poaching easier. Get in, shoot some elk, sled it out, no rangers around to stop you because (as was stated here) there's 4-5 feet of snow on the ground.
Also, overt ecosystem damage is only one aspect of the conversation. Snowmobiles also pollute and make a lot of noise. People that do cold-weather camping and hiking do so for a unique type of quiet solitude, which is spoiled by the roar of those 200HP engines tearing up the place.
In my opinion, public lands should be completely free of motorized recreational vehicles. If you need to use a snowmobile to haul yourself across the winter landscape, do it on your own land.
Sounds like Robbie Holman from the Montana Snowmobile Association has been inhaling too much of his own two-stroke exhaust. If you check with the Flathead National Forest that Holman complains about you'll find that more than half the acreage there is open to snowmobiles. And in Montana as a whole there are 12 million acres of national forest lands open to snowmobiles. This is hardly a case of snowmobiles being shut out.
It would be damned nice to go somewhere without worrying about some damned fool running me over with a motorized missile...
If human contact is bad in the winter, then close the park completely to everyone.
Regulating snowmobiles and other off-road vehicles is an old fight, pitting no-limit anarchists against those who call for reasonable regulations and compromise, allowing the motorheads to have fun in their areas and the folks who don't like the noise, fumes, wildlife harrassment and damage to the environment to have places where they can get away from the bigger toys for bigger boys crowd.
Some motorized recreationists will never be convinced otherwise, that there's some nefarious "plot" to drive them off of federal lands entirely.
Of course, if gasoline ever hits $5-$10 or more per gallon, motorized recreation will become a moot issue.
Newwestis really showing it's true pro-motorized, right wing colors with the title of this article.
Environmentalists have shown time and time again their disregard for rural communities and the people that live in them, to hell with their economies whether it be logging, ranching or tourist facilitation.
Unreasonable environmentalists is why the founder of Greenpeace, Patrick Moore, quite the organization he started, even he couldn't stand them anymore.
Patrick Moore got tired of being against everything and wanted to start being for something so he started Greenspirit http://greenspirit.com
When I am cross country skiing I don't like to ski on snowmobile tracks as they impede my kick and glide and I think this is part of the reason the environmentalists want to have them kicked out of our multiple purpose lands. Oh yeah, and their hydrocarbon consumption.
The National Forest Service was established in 1905, Gifford Pinchot, the first Chief of the Forest Service, summed up the mission of the Forest Service— "to provide the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people in the long run."
Part of the mission statement of the Forest Service says "Helping States and communities to wisely use the forests to promote rural economic development and a quality rural environment." Gag on that one you rural community stranglers.
This so called loophole closing likely doesn't have much of a chance of going anywhere now that the Americans have retaken the the House of Representatives :D
I spent an enjoyable day in Boulder/White Clouds two winters ago. There were three of us and we never saw another human being (skier or snowmobile rider) during the whole sunny and beautiful day. It would have taken a backcountry skier three days to get where we went assuming that he/she wanted to get there. It snowed the next day and our tracks were obliterated. No one would have been able to tell that we were there.
I am not a huge fan of the Tea Party. However, I believe that they and others in Congress will not allow any further regulation of snowmobile use on USFS land. The reality is that if it were not for money coming from people that don't live in the West, the environmental groups that are trying to alter our way of life would have no voice in this debate. I am concerned that this debate is being driven by many people who live in cities on the coasts.
-- The idea that the same regulations that govern summer OHV use can be equally applied to winter use is just laughable. To those who don't think snowmobiles are regulated, I submit the sticker checks we have with the rangers nearly every time we go out.
-- Outside of wanting to set the foundation for complete elimination, I can't think of any reason the local regulations aren't fully appropriate. We've been to public lands were only groomed trail riding is allowed and we've been to areas where open riding is allowed. Isn't it fair for the local park service and local residents to work together to decide IF public use is endangering the land (or not) and how they see balancing public use and enjoyment with good stewardship of the land and it's resources.
--Although this article is about extending the OHV regs to cover snowmobiles, I wanted to point out that every summer there are public meetings in our state addressing off road use and which, if any trails to close to public use. Every single meeting, there are people who fly in from other states to sit in this meeting and propose closing every single trail (each, one at a time). These people have never even RIDDEN said trails, nor are they local residents who may be impacted. I think most folks have no idea stuff like this happens.
-- Finally, as a family who enjoys motorized recreation as a family sport (as well and skiing, hiking, and mountain biking) I think it's something between hilarious and preposterous that people think we don't care about or for the land. We spend as much or more time on public lands, and because we want to be able to continue to enjoy these opportunities for decades to come, it certainly behooves us to do everything we can to care for it as well. But caring for it is different then closing it.
but I wanna ride my trikey...huff!
I've completed week long winter backcountrt trips in million acre+ wildernesses. Just last winter I took a winter tracking course in the Bob Marshall Wilderness.
Funny you should talk about lazy, you really area dumb bigot.
I'm thrilled that you are able to take a week long back country winter trip through Bob Marshall. But don't assume that snowmobilers are fat or lazy, that just speaks to your narrow-mindedness.
This is how it works. We by MAJORITY like our lands open for use wither it be hiking, dirt bike, or snowmobiles. We will not lose because history has proven that real AMERICANS do NOT lose. Even when you think you are winning you are not.
Its easy to see who is a real American!
It is always entertaining to see the prose of the snowmobile guys. Did any of them go beyond the 6th Grade? Honestly, their comments are often similar to adolescent boys arguing about the size of their anatomy and imagined prowess!
The Dixie National Forest in Utah restricts snowmobiling to trail riding in most (if not all) of the park. What exactly is wrong with local regulation?
I'm sure families ski and snowshoe, but they also snowmobile. As a parent of three young children, taking a week long back country snowshoe trip is unrealistic. Snowmobiling for an afternoon with the kids is not. Again, your assumptions just show your narrow mindedness.
As someone who is an avid, responsible snowmobiler and outdoor enthusiast, I spend a lot of my free time in the forest all year round and I take note of the conditions around me. Go to any popular sledding area and you WILL NOT see any evidence that a sled was ever there come summertime, I have literally Thousands of photos to prove my statement. On the other hand, go to any Hiking trail and you will see lasting damage... ruts in the soil, vegitation destroyed, everything you uneducatedly claim snowmobiles do and 10 times more.
I do not attack your right to enjoy the public land as you see fit, I think it's great that you can hike 100% of public land in the United States, but when I insulate myself on to of 4 to 15 ft of snow so that I never touch a single blade of grass, I am now the bad guy destroying the great outdoors and must be stopped.
Take a step back and look at the differences with an un-biased set of eyes, the physical damage that is claimed by the WWA and its supporters is not occuring by snowmobilers who don't touch the ground.
http://www.yellowstone.co
and go to the board and message 4477
Furthermore, as an aging boomer who once enthusiastically hiked, snowshoed and cross country skiied through much of the American west, I would sincerely like to continue but my worn out knees prevent this now unfortunately. Would it be too much to ask for all Americans regardless of physical limitations to have access to our public lands?
Backcountry- your a liar snowmobiles have a lots of impact your lying!
motorhead REAL AMERICANS!
WOW you guys are just a bunch of lying crybabies who wanna ride their snow trikeys into every subalpine basin and whpo cares about them wolverine dens or lynx MY TRIKEY IS FREEDOM REAL AMERICAN WOOOOOOT!
it's the impacts snowmobiles have on winter stressed wildlife, not erosion or impacts on the physical land!
The more you sledhead necks claim there no impact the bigger LIARS u ARE!
Screw them critters I wANNA RIDE MY TRIKEY! THATS FREEDOM REAL AMERICANS LIKE FREEDOM
you motorheads are a bunch of lying, testosterone dummies!
Actually in the entire wilderness preservation system in the western US is 30 million acres, and not much fo that is in MT.
http://carhart.wilderness.net/docs/curriculum/3-1.pdf
JUST MORE LIES FROM THE MOTORHEAD ELITISTS!
A DIRECT COPY FROM YOUR SOURCE
The majority of Wilderness sources are administered by the U.S. Forest Service, 399 units
comprising 34,676,493 acres.
SOCIAL STUDIES
American Government; Geography
Page 107
Â
• The National Park Service manages the most Wilderness acres, 44 units on
43,007,316 acres.
• The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service manages 75 units on 20,685,372 acres.
• Bureau of Land Management was not included in the 1964 Wilderness Act and it
wasn’t until 1976 that the Federal Land Policy and Management Act gave authority
to the BLM to inventory and recommend lands to be added to the wilderness
system. They have 136 units comprising 5,227,063 acres.
Add together ALL the Wilderness managed by all mentioned servicing agencies contained in your source report and that adds up to
103,596,244 Acres of Wilderness
as of the date of that report (I didn't see a date)
That is over 100 million acres as I stated.
By the way, I take Extreme Offense to your calling me a "Motorhead Elitist", I have not insulted you in any way, and am respectfully sharing my opinion and a few facts. I ask you to treat me with the same Respect I am showing you. Thank You.
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=fastfacts
Creation and Growth of the National Wilderness Preservation System
"When the Wilderness Act was passed in 1964, 54 areas (9.1 million acres) in 13 states were designated as wilderness. This law established these areas as part of the National Wilderness Preservation System. Since 1964, the NWPS has grown almost every year and now includes 756 areas (109,494,428 acres) in 44 states and Puerto Rico. In 1980, the passage of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA) added over 56 million acres of wilderness to the system, the largest addition in a single year. 1984 marks the year when the most new wilderness areas were added."
109+ million acres of Wilderness are already proctected and devoted specifically to Non-motorized and non-mechanized use in addition to any public designated non-motorized recreation areas. When you get right down to it there are literally over a hundred million Acres free of any type of machine, motor, bicycle or other device that may contain moving metal parts.
When you get right down to asking for places that can be set aside for use as 'quiet, natural' areas to enjoy nature, You fail to realize all the areas you already have. More to the point of this discussion, if you haven't taken the opportunity to get out and ride a snowmobile yourself, you should, it would help you to understand first hand the REAL effects of a sled on the forest, they really are less drastic than you claim them to be.
Again, big mouth snowmobile people here make up their story and scream it ad nauseum. Those words smack of selfish and inconsiderate people.
Many people are out there hiking in winter on snowshoes or on skis and see what goes on! It is a free-for-all with snowmobile riders grabbing the valuable winter resources- snow, silence, and solitude completely taken by a few from the majority! Snowmobile people say they do not see anyone else- do you look, and do you think anyone with sense would jump in front of a speeding motor vehicle? Your snowmobile reality is a selfish dream screamed loudly and constantly.
Theres hardly any wilderness in MT you motorhead elitists need to quit crying about acess and claiming "WE DO NO DAMAGE" LIES.
you claimed it was "hundreds of millions of acres" not 100 million acres which is mostly in Alaska.
More lies from the motorhead elite.
nice try...liar.
Above hateful and stereotyping words are uncalled for and are inaccurate. Next, we perhaps will hear how tough are guys who push a throttle and lean while riding a snowmobile up mountains!
To the foul word writers above- grow up, go finish 8th Grade to develop a vocabulary. Many, in my experience doing both types of sport, many who use skis or snowshoes are very fit, very capable at all levels, and are often accomplished professionals, not really of the category described above. Get over your schoolboy ideas and blue-collar anger and deal with reality.
The reality is that winter non-motorized users are the significant majority. The time is coming for more reasonable management of the Forest to control the snowmobile free-for-all!
you accurately summed up the right wing, biogted, snowmobile/motorhead entitlement syndrome to "OUR LAND!"
Your above comments are so prejuiced and ludicrous it's hysterical!
BTW i'm willing to gamble there are more snowmobile accidents this winter than backcountry snowshoers/skiers, and most of us don't use any snowmobile support.
Your continual claims that if land is'nt used by snowmobilers it's just left for "liberal tree huggers" is false.
In reality non-motorized winter public land is left for wintering elk, mule deer, white-tail deer, skunks, lynx, bobcat, cougars, wolverines (especially their high elevation dens under snow), ewrmine, fisher, marten, moose etc.
Ever thought of that tough guy?
Have you ever actually gone out snow tracking?
The stories of countless creatures are displayed in the snow.
I've tracked Cougars up into impenetrable outcroppings, bears to their favorite spring grazing areas and wolf packs to fresh elk kills.
But you probally just snowmobile right over tracks and scream about "OUR LAND, REAL AMERICANS, DAMN TREE HUGGER BLUNT SMOKIN YUPPIES!"
Did it ever occur to you that you really don't know or understand "OUR LAND!"
last spring I tracked a Lynx in a sub-alpine basin out in the Great Burn Roadless country. You know all that land west of Superior, MT where snowmbilers like to "high line" up to the bitteroot divide and then try to outrun the resulting avalanche with limited success.
Perhaps you should give it a try, after all you would'nt want all that land to be wasted on "liberal tree hugger, north face sandal wearing, blunt smokin yuppies" right?
-FACT SHEET-
The West Pioneer Wilderness Study Area includes 148,150 acres including sites like the Skull Odell Research Natural Area, the Pioneer National Recreation Trail, 10 cirque lakes providing vital winter wildlife habitat, and prominent peaks in the Stine, Odell and Bobcat Mountains.
In 1977, Congress passed the Montana Wilderness Study Act through an effort spearhead by the late Montana Senator Lee Metcalf. The act protected the West Pioneers and directed the Forest Service to maintain the area’s wilderness character at levels that existed at the act’s inception.
When congress passed the Act, only seven miles of trail were marked for snowmobile use. By 2003, there were 90 miles. Now, this litigation stops an additional 95 miles¬a 62% increase in five years¬from being added to that list.
Both roads and snowmobile routes disrupt wildlife habitat in the West Pioneers, where sensitive populations of wolverine den to give birth during winter months and mountain goats find refuge on critical winter range. The increase in trail grooming has brought more snowmobiles into the WSA, where a 2005 Forest Service study discovered that 12 wolverines still reside there, a potentially critical amount for a drastically dwindling population. Wolverine remain on the verge of federal listing under the Endangered Species Act.
The forest interior of the Pioneer Mountains is one of the few places in the Northern Rockies that provides secure, primary and maternal habitat for wolverine. In winter, wolverines spend much of their time in the coniferous forests of the mountains. Snowmobile use displaces wolverines and may reduce reproductive success, especially when it occurs within potential wolverine denning habitat. Snowmobiling causes increased energetic expenditures (i.e., movements away from the activity, including relocating dens in response to human presence), reduced genetic intake (exclusion of foraging areas), and lowered juvenile survival.
Female wolverines appear to be most sensitive to human presence during the winter denning period. Six of the seven natal dens located in the Greater Yellowstone Area occurred in areas without motorized use, i.e., designated wilderness or areas inaccessible by snowmobile. At present, USFS considers wolverine inhabiting the Beaverhead’s Pioneer Mountains to play an important role in sustaining and recovering regional wolverine populations.
This victory takes a major step in protecting the area and its value for wintering wildlife from the impacts of snowmobile use.
Stopping Snowmobile Trespass in the Great Burn
During the winters of 2001-02 and 2002-03 the Native Forest Network's Last Refuge Campaign documented extensive snowmobile violations in the protected areas of the Great Burn. The 1986 Lolo Forest Plan designated the Montana portion of the Burn as off limits to motorized use year round, except on Surveyor Road for six weeks in the summer. Trespass by snowmobilers in the Montana side of the Great Burn has been on the rise since the forest plan was written. With the Lolo Winter Recreation Area so close to the southern boundary, violations there are not surprising. The route over Schley Mountain, Surveyor Road, and into Idaho is another point of access. Snowmobilers on their way into Idaho drop down into the protected areas. Highway 250 provides access to the State-Line Trail, Hoodoo Meadows and Trail 171T, and from here they can easily get further into the Burn.
Both the Lolo and Clearwater Forest Plans will soon be revised, and due to the rise in motorized use, portions of the Great Burn risk losing their current protected status. However, plan revision also offers a chance to gain new protections and tell the Forest Service to unify their management of the Great Burn.
We need your help:
Contact the Clearwater NF Supervisor and ask him to protect the Great Burn from motorized use in order to maintain the wilderness character of the proposed Wilderness.
Contact the Region 1 Forester and the Lolo and Clearwater NF Supervisors and ask that a unified management strategy be developed for the Great Burn which restricts motorized use, protects the Wilderness character of the area, and allows for secure habitat for imperiled species such as lynx, grey wolf, grizzly bear and wolverine.
http://www.nativeforest.org/campaigns/last_refuge/great_burn.htm
Actually "Freedom" the only one's who are lacking in facts are the one's claiming that "snowmobiles do no damage"
I called a few names after I was verbally insulted, but ceased in my several previous comments which is more than I can say of Elvi. There have been dozens documenting the damages of snowmobile use on winter stressed wildlife. Perhaps if you let the winter wildlife have it's FREEDOM we Could all get along.
If anyone need to grow up it's someone who leaves ponitless comments and tells others to mind their own business IE Shut up.
LMAO @ u freedom...what a great points you have ....not.
Wilderness Areas Found: 15
Unit Acreage Sum: 3,443,385 Acres
Total Acreage Sum: 4,555,727 Acres
http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS
So much for seth's claim that there's "hundreds of millions of acres of wilderness"
California has a total of 14,986,424 acres of designated wilderness
Colorado has a total of 3,707,254 acres of designated wilderness
Idaho has a total of 4,522,779 acres of designated wilderness
Montana has a total of 3,443,038 acres of designated wilderness
Nevada has a total of 3,370,343 acres of designated wilderness
Oregon has a total of 2,473,207 acres of designated wilderness
Utah has a total of 1,156,952 acres of designated wilderness
Washington has a total of 4,423,676 acres of designated wilderness
Wyoming has a total of 3,111,232 acres of designated wildernesses
Straight from the horse's mouth
http://www.snowmobile-alliance.org/
It sickens me how anti-wilderness the snowmobile-alliance is.
What a selfish minority that is running rampant on our public lands, demanding they be allowed to intrude on everyones space including those without a say wildlife.
Care to post some "facts" that show snwmobiles "do no damage at all" Freedom?
I appologize.
I made a mistake.
There are not Hundreds of millions oaf acres of wilderness.
There are however OVER 100 MILLION ACRES of wilderness, THAT has been proven.
Let's clear up a couple more misconceptions you have about myself AND many other sledders.
I am not a wildlife hater, I am not a destructive forest user, I often pack out MORE than I pack in to keep the forest looking as good as I can. I don't chase wildlife, I don't disturb the ground, I don't run an excessively loud machine, I don't sneak up to wildlife undetected and startle them at close range.
I do contribute to my local economy, I do offer assistance to any person in need, I do anything I reasonably can to 'leave no trace'. I do respect wilderness boundries and stay where I am allowed to be, I do slow to an idle when I encounter pedestrians on the trail, I do stop at a respectful distance when I encounter wildlife. I do pick up after myself and others as I mentioned above, and I respect my environment, it's dangers, it's beauty, and it's fragility. I am a hardworking Catholic American that believes in treating other's fairly and being thankful for everything I have been given and worked for. I pay my taxes, and occasionally give to charity. I firmly believe in treating others as you would want to be treated, and think that any level of violence or destruction is too much.
I respect your opinion and your intentions of protecting the forest in the manner that you would prefer, but I DO NOT agree with all of your methods to do it. To be perfectly honest I find you closed-minded and I think you will never wish to participate in a motorized activity if you had a gun to your head. I hike, I camp,, I boat, I ride a four-wheeler, and sledding is my one true passion in life. The outdoors is in my blood, There is not a day that goes by that I don't wish I was up in the mountains experiencing the beauty it has to offer, it is my back yard, one that I respect, one that I care for, and that I enjoy.
Non-motorized recreation is a great way to experience the great outdoors, and one that you can do ANYWHERE, that is what is so great about it. Motorized recreation has a place in the forest, and your dis-approval of it is your choice. If you look at a map and check out how much area you have to enjoy, you will see there is FAR more than what I am lucky to have (about 100 million acres more to be exact)
Go ahead, call me an elitist who wants everything for me and nothing for you, You will find that to be incorrect. I want to share with you, you want me gone.
I am a sledder, I am a responsible forest user, and you will find many more who are also.
I am sorry, I meant to keep it short, but as you can see I am quite passionate about the forest and my belief in equal opportunity and equal access for all.
never wish to participate in a motorized activity if you had a gun to your
head"- seth
You claim i'm close minded....wow.
Never once did I claim I don't participate in motorized activity. I have friends atv's i've road in their back-woods trails etc.
Not my thing, but atvs in on private land are'nt destroying any endangered wolverine dens either.
Not only is that a creepy statement, it's delusional and false.
In regards to your "hundreds of millions of acres of wilderness"
The Western US has 33 someaught acres of designated wilderness.
I posted the state by state wilderness stats. to illustarte a point.
No western state has near the amount of wilderness acreage you try to portray.
I stated that previuosly, but apparnetly you have trouble reading.
Not once do you even respond to the winter stressed wildlife issue, it's all about you.
I'm glad your finished with your factless tantrum, please just end this and leave Larix alone.
There are thousands of miles of forest service roads that are open to snowmobiles; in every western state.
Although snowmobilers have been illegally riding in the Mission Mountains Wilderness near Seeley Lake for more than 20 years, trespass problems get worse every year, according to Frank Gillin, fish and game chief on the Flathead Indian Reservation. Foothills around Seeley Lake provide easy access, and logging roads and state-funded snowmobile trails lead right up to the wilderness boundary. As faster, more reliable snowmobiles allow people to ride deeper into the wilderness, those routes multiply and tempt trespass.
Snowmobile trespass is a Montana-wide problem, not just limited to Seeley Lake, says John Gatchell of the Montana Wilderness Association. One Forest Service report, says Gatchell, cited 472 confirmed violations of the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness boundary by snowmobilers during the 1995-96 season. Those 472 violations resulted in just seven tickets issued by the Forest Service.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/100/3096
"The impacts of snowmobiles on the backcountry are poorly understood but very real. Snowmobile manufacturers and riders would have us believe that since the snow melts and tracks disappear, the impact of these high-powered toys is minimal.
The Lolo National Forest recently published the Stateline Snowmobile Environmental Assessment, which analyzed the effects of these machines. It found that wolverine dens could be severely impacted by snowmobile use, causing stress and jeopardizing the survival of the young. Snowmobiles were found to disturb grey wolves as well. The Forest Service states that increased winter recreation within the Stateline analysis area could degrade air, soil and water quality, damage vegetation, and result in a lack of areas devoid of human noise. Snowmobiles can damage tree stems, break trunks and remove bark. They also may negatively impact aquatic life. Their exhaust contains ammonium, nitrate and sulfate ions which, when mixed with water, create acids. These acids may stress tree seedlings and can impact seedling germination, growth and survival.
Researchers have observed other snowmobile impacts to wildlife. Compacted snowmobile trails give bobcats and coyotes access through deep snow to remote lynx habitat and allow them to compete with lynx for snowshoe hares, the sole food of the lynx. Pocket gophers and other rodents rely on extensive networks of tunnels under the snow. The tunnels provide protection from predators and the elements and allow the gophers to forage for vegetation. When snowmobiles collapse these tunnels, rodents become trapped and have to burrow out, exposing themto predators and requiring crucial winter survival energy."
http://www.nativeforest.org/campaigns/last_refuge/great_burn.htm
LMAO @ Bacountry for everyone
Of course in your "15 years of backcountry riding" snowmobilers were the nicest to you, YOUR a snowmobiler.
I have never been on a snowmobile in my life and probably will never be, but that does not mean that no one else should be allowed to use them. Every time we take rights away from one person or group of people to benefit us in some way we all lose.
GET A LIFE! WOMAN!
Why are wolverines not a bigger subject? Because they've been virtually non existent in Montana for nearly 100 years. The fact that they are making a comeback in spite of more human interaction then ever is fabulous. If there are a handful of denning wolverines in a particular area of the state, then let the LOCAL management restrict ALL access (foot and motorized) in that area. That's the very advantage of local management, they can respond to the specific needs of a very individual ecosystem.
As far as your stereotypes and name calling, I find most of it humorous as I'm just about as opposite as you get! As a woman I'm certainly not a testosterone laden motor head. We enjoy snowmobiles and ATV's, but we also enjoy mountain biking and hiking. Although I'm a babywearer, the later two activities are more challenging, as we have three young children who don't have the endurance and abilities of adults, thus motorized recreation still gives us the ability to enjoy more of the outdoors with our entire family. We support safe riding for youth, enjoy supporting local economies (as small business owners ourselves), gladly buy our stickers, pay our fees and have no issues with abiding by local regulations that vary by location. We do our best to call out bad riding behavior if/when we see it in winter and summer alike because we realize that one bad apple gives agenda laden people ammunition to criticize the majority of reasonable and safe riders. We support programs like "Tread Lightly" that encourage good stewardship and youth education. There is room for balanced use.
If you're going to use statistics, please use something that's less then a DECADE+ old. And btw, I am all for citing more people for unlawful behavior if they are doing so. So pursue the lax enforcement of law, instead of further restricting lawful use.
this is about simply placing snowmobiles in the same category as other off road vehicles. No one is ending snowmobile use on public lands like the paranoid motorheads keep insisting.
The more you folks make ludicrous claims like "We do no damage!" and "your trying to eliminate all snowmobile use" the less seriuos anyone will take you.
Or a reasonable explanation of why you think the summer/OHV environment is the same as a winter/snowmobile environment and should be regulated as one and the same. You guys have stated yourselves that wildlife concerns are different in the winter.
I never stated they should be the same.
All this prooves is that most snowmobilers are against any/all regualtion and want to continue their free for all on our public lands.
How is a snowmobile different from a dirt bike?
The physical impact on the land is less than dirt bikes but the impacts on wildlife who may not even be a near a road is tremendous. Snowmobiles dont stay on roads lke other orv groups. They insist upon not staying on roads and cause a lot of impact. Now when someone dares question them or regulate their activity in any way and it's all
"THERE TRYING TO END ALL MOTORIZED RED WAHHHH"
"WE DO NO DAMAGE!!"
It'q quite obviuos the only one who dont want to share with wildlife or others or compromise at all are the snowmobilers.
How can you compromise when to even bring up the topic these snowmobilers start shrieking about "ENDING ALL SNOWMOBILE USE!"
The title of this article is a testament to the paranoia of the motorized rec. groups.
Notice how Seth and todd's posts lack ANY facts or stats to back up their ludircous claims.
"Winter recreation may be the single largest threat to wolverines. Fifteen years ago, you couldn’t
get a snow machine into these areas. There are snow machines coming out now that can go
virtually anywhere. If we don’t protect these (denning) sites, we may not have wolverines.”
- Jeff Copeland, Former Idaho Fish and Game Dept. Wolverine Researcher"
"Last season we documented extensive snowmobile violations in the
northern and central portions of the Great Burn in Montana and recorded
heavy use on the Idaho side. Even though snow conditions this season were
poor and avalanche danger high, we still documented several violations in
Montana and widespread use in Idaho.
The first fly-over was done by the Great Burn Study Group (GBSG) on
January 15. Even through low hanging clouds, tracks were seen going from
Trout Creek Rd. (F.R. 250) to Heart Lake on trail #171. About 25 sets of tracks
were observed on the lake making this an early season hot spot. Just above lies
Pearl Lake, but the clouds prevented any observation. One area that has
frequent violations is Irish Basin just a little south of the Schley Mt. corridor
along Surveyor Creek Rd. The Lolo N.F. leaves this route unprotected to allow
access into Idaho. Snowmobilers use the corridor to get to Kid Lake but some
drop down into Irish Basin. It was here that about 20 sets of tracks were found,
including high marking, which can cause avalanches. Most of the other places
did not have evidence of violations or were unapproachable due to the clouds.
Thanks to our volunteer ground crews and team leader Brian Huntington,
we were able to get into places when the weather was uncooperative. The first
trip, on January 18th to the Heart Lake trailhead #171 was to confirm the
observations of the previous over-flight. No signs were posted at the trailhead
warning users of the area closure and tracks were confirmed along the length
of the trail. Volunteers observed oil spots in the snow at various points. The
following weekend, January 25th, volunteers tried to get to the Heart Lake
trailhead but could not due to an avalanche that had completely covered part of
Trout Creek Rd. It was noted that the avalanche did not deter snowmobiles
from traveling up the road. The next organized ground trip was on February
2nd, up Schley Mt. corridor. Again, tracks were seen in Irish Basin and
volunteers observed coyotes and a moose on Surveyor Creek Rd. just a little
ways from where they camped. On February 12th, the GBSG checked out
Clearwater Crossing and found three sets of tracks continuing from the
recreational use of denning habitats (i.e., cirque basins), by both snowmobilers and skiers. Spring snow pack provides the most
favorable conditions to access the remote regions, and it is exactly during this time when these recreationists will most negatively
affect reproductive activities of resident wolverines. As snowmobiling and backcountry skiing continues to grow in popularity, there is
an increasing concern that reproductive habitats may become limiting to populations due to human disturbance. Protection of reproductive
denning habitat may be critical for the persistence of wolverine. An association between wolverine presence and refugia (e.g.,
Wilderness Areas) may be linked to a lack of available reproductive denning habitat outside protected areas.”
Allowed snowmobile use on Kid Lake, Clearwater
National Forest, Idaho. Photo by LightHawk.
View from the Schley Mt. corridor. Photo by Brian Huntington
trailhead to trail 99/103 junctions. No signs were posted to
inform people of the motorized restriction.
On February 4th a LightHawk volunteer pilot flew over the
Schley Mt. corridor and found snowmobile activity on the ridge
between Kid and Cedar Log Lakes, which is the Stateline Trail
#738. Again on March 10th, LightHawk was able to fly over
portions of the Great Burn and observed more illegal use in
Irish Basin. Violations were also documented along the
Stateline Trail leading from Kid Lake toward Admiral Peak.
Additional tracks were seen on the Stateline Trail #46 coming
from the Crooked Fork and Hopeful Creek drainage. This
drainage and Kid Lake both lie on the Idaho side and were
covered with tracks. Traveling north, more evidence of use was
seen on and northeast of Fish Lake. All these areas are unprotected
from cross-country snowmobile use and lie in critical
wolverine and lynx habitat. It is evident that snowmobilers
routinely travel into the protected side of the Great Burn from
Idaho and this season we were able to photograph their route
from the Crooked Fork and Hopeful Creek drainage. The
Clearwater NF already lists the trails in the drainage as off
limits to snowmobiles so it would not be unreasonable to ask
that they designate an area closure since their trail restrictions
are not working.
Many more over-flights were scheduled and cancelled due
Area around Heart Lake on the Lolo National Forest.
Photo by Bob Clark (2001) .
to weather conditions. Finally, on April 30th, in cooperation with the GBSG, we were able to fly over the northern part of the Great
Burn. Heart, Pearl and Dalton Lakes had tracks on and around them. Recent snowfalls drew out snowmobilers who had faced poor
snow conditions all season, so it was no surprise to see violations. Traveling south along the Idaho/Montana Stateline, we observed
trespass on Straight Lake and high marking along the ridge to the west. More tracks were seen along the ridge up from Cedar Log
Lakes and violations were again confirmed in Irish Basin. Both Fish and Kid Lakes showed sign of use over on the Idaho side.
Our goal in documenting violations and areas of heavy use is not only to bring attention to the issue, but also to convince the Forest
Service that their efforts to protect the wilderness characteristics need to be improved. To this end we have asked that the Lolo
National Forest close the access points that allow trespass to occur. We have also expressed our desire that the Clearwater National
Forest change its management directives to protect its side of the proposed wilderness. Forest Plan revisions are scheduled soon and
we need to send a clear message that decisive action needs to be taken in order to protect the Great Burn."
http://www.nativeforest.org/campaigns/last_refuge/snowmobile_report/snowmobile_report.pdf
-Shanna
Care to back up yet another ludicrous claim by the snowmobilers with some facts, stats or links?
BTW the previuos quote and observed violation were from the 2009-2010 Winter season, hardly a decade old.
If your a responsible rider will you please tell all the illegal snowmbile riders to knock it off, i'm sure they'll be real receptive.
"Effective population sizes in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming, where most of the wolverines in the contiguous United States exist, were calculated to be 35 (credible limits, 28–
52) suggesting low abundance."
Michael K. Schwartz, Jeffrey P. Copeland, Neil J. Anderson, John R. Squires, Robert M. Inman, Kevin S. McKelvey, Kristy L. Pilgrim, Lisette P. Waits, and Samuel A. Cushman (2010). http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2009_schwartz_m001.pdf. Retrieved 2010-10-14.
Manuscript received 7 July 2008; revised 4 February 2009;
accepted 6 February 2009.
That's just not true, there is still a trapping season in MT for wolverines and there has been since the state's inception.
There are records and i'm sure carcases from trappers disproving your claims.
All the more reason to restrict and enforce illegal snowmobile riding in wolverine denning habitat.
But no one seems to recognize that snowmobiling on public lands already IS regulated. It's just not regulated in the way you WANT it to be.
Snowmobiles don't have the same impact on forest land and animals, you and I agree on that. They are not the same, so why regulate them in the same way?
Quote-
"By Freedom, 11-15-10
Larix and Jack Richards, you have no facts or data to back up your arguments. Most your arguments are completely false and stereotyped anyway. You two are just stating YOUR OPINION, which to me and the majority means nothing. You two are whining about name calling when you are just being hypocrites yourself. Grow up and mind your own business and everyone will be just fine."
"Freedom," one's "rights" end when they interfere with another's "rights." Snowmobile riding alters the Forest in proximity to others to the degree that other citizens' reasonable non-motorized use of the Forest is denied- taken! When a snowmobile is ridden on a snowy slope where others are on snowshoes or skis, the ridden snowmobile presents a tangible hazard to pedestrians and also may cause an avalanche onto pedestrians before pedestrians may retreat from the speeding machine entering the area. Also, modern powerful snowmobiles create ( "trench") deep square-sided ruts that render the snow surface undesirable or unusable for other Forest users- citizens who want to exercise their "Freedom." The riding of snowmobiles on the Forest is not inappropriate, but that activity needs management. Areas to serve the clear majority of citizens who wish to ski, snowshoe, or winter camp on the (non-Wilderness) Forest must be provided in at least an equitable fashion.
The snowmobile-damage to resources, flora, and fauna are increasingly demonstrated. Old studies from 25 years ago are often quoted to indicate little to no resource or flora damage, or harm to wildlife. If snowmobiles were ridden now only where ridden 25 years ago, there would not be the conflict with non-motorized Forest users as now, and not the resource/flora/fauna damage as now. If any of the posting snomo-enthusiasts discussed this with any intellectual honesty, they would acknowledge that the capabilities of modern snowmobiles allow riding to most areas, in trees, on sidehill ablve creeks, through trees. Soon we may see conclusive studies illustrating the damage done by 150+ HP machines traveling over most snowy terrain, day after day, winter after winter.
Many winter recreationists who engage in non-motorized activities use or hire snowmobiles to get up roads to go into the backcountry. Many non-motorized winter Forest users are quite angry at the widespread domination of the Forest by snowmobile riding. Others are not as angry, but most want some reasonable management to allow winter non-motorized forest use that is not interfered by speeding, loud, snowmobile riding.
So I don't understand why when enviros are on motorized lands and run into a motorized vehicle they are offended. They knew they were on motorized land and should expect to run into a motorized vehicle. Now had they been in a non-motorized area and run into a motorized vehicle I could see the reason to be upset. But this is not an issue because motorized users are respectful and don't go on non-motorized areas and yes it is regulated with fines. I do see countless rangers in non-motorized and motorized areas. I use them both.
Both uses have their place and both sides should be respectful of it, and leave well enough alone. Just my Two Bits.
Given the small level of usage of snowmobiles on the total of FS lands it simply makes no sense to have a general snowmobile usage rule for all forests. There is no snowmobile usage in FL and it would generate a lot of expense to have that forest address usage that they will NEVER see.
The environmental damage argument against snowmobile usage has been found to be totally scientifically off base. US Forest Service has REPEATEDLY found no environmental impact to water runoff in spring, exhaust on the snow surface.
http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/boise/AWAE/scientists/profiles/Musselman/MusselmanKorfmacherSnowmobileEM&A2007;.pdf
In Yellowstone the FS actually studied an area directly adjacent to a heavily used snowmobile trail and was unable to find ANY trace of exhaust during testing.
https://science1.nature.nps.gov/naturebib/biodiversity/2007-9-25/ID650780_Arnold_2006_snowmobile_snowmelt.pdf
User conflicts are should not be an issue if those seeking a human powered experience use good judgement. A case in point. The White River National Forest estimates that approximately 7% of the forest is practically available for over snow vehicle use. (White River National Forest Draft Environmental Impact Statement, 2006 @ 77.) Please don't assert that the remaining 93% of the forest is insufficient for quiet recreation. That would be silly......
If you can't get to the area to use it, that sounds like an access argument and welcome to our side. This issue has repeatedly been cited as a major issue in conducting scientific research on various endangered species. I particularly like this study since it was funded by the Wildlife Conservation Society.
http://www.wolverinefoundation.org/research/gywp02.htm
Noise......... under the FS regulations snowmobiles can be no louder than the vac cleaner or electric lawnmower at your house. Often low flying planes, horns, orchestras, blow dryers and roads are MUCH louder than anything snowmobile related. It simply is not the volume of the snowmobile, it is the response to it from people who don't want it there that is the problem. This is simply a complete misunderstanding of the multiple use doctrine that governs much of the public lands.
Thanks
Warren Butler
Butler Racing