NEW WEST FEATURE
Can Bikers and Hikers Share Wilderness Areas?
Mountain bikers are barred from wilderness areas. But some cyclists are arguing for a Wilderness B designation: wilderness with bikes. Not all wilderness advocates are sold on the idea, though.By David Frey, 12-23-10
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| A mountain biker rides near Crested Butte, Colo. When the 1964 Wilderness Act set aside lands “where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man,” mountain bikes didn’t exist and bicycle riding in the forest was a rarity. Photo by Flickr user Trailsource.com. | |
Hikers and mountain bikers may have a lot of things in common, but wilderness isn’t one of them. Where the wilderness boundary starts, mountain bikes have to stop, creating a rift between sometimes-allies as environmentalists seek new wilderness areas at the expense of beloved mountain bike trails.
But some mountain bikers are rallying around a new idea they call “Wilderness B,” or wilderness with bikes. They’re pressing for a new type of wilderness designation that would allow bikes to roll through protected landscapes alongside hikers and horses.
On an otherwise anonymous Facebook page that chronicles conflicts between mountain bikers and wilderness advocates, they argue bikes have less impact on the land than hikers, and they urge supporters to press elected officials to create “a sister designation” to wilderness, one with all of wilderness protections, and with bikes.
“Mountain bikers are staunch preservationists and to date the Wilderness lobby has self-servingly lobbied against the inclusion of bicycles,” the Facebook site says.
“Wilderness B is really targeted at how can we create new forms of land protection,” said Mark Eller, spokesman for the Boulder, Colo.-based International Mountain Biking Association, which generally supports the idea of Wilderness B but says it isn’t behind the movement.
IMBA often supports wilderness plans gerrymandered to carve out areas for mountain bikers. “Those are all good,” Eller said. “They’re better than nothing. But what we’d really like to see is the same kind of gold standard of land protection as wilderness that would allow bicycles.”
But many wilderness advocates say wilderness areas aren’t the place for bikes.
“One of the big values of wilderness is to slow down. To be quiet. To be amidst nature on its own terms,” said Suzanne Jones, Denver regional director of The Wilderness Society, which rejects bikes in the wilderness.
When the 1964 Wilderness Act set aside lands “where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man,” mountain bikes didn’t exist and bicycle riding in the forest was a rarity. The act bars “mechanical transport” in wilderness areas, but exactly what that means is at the center of the debate.
IMBA insists that bikes were never intended to be barred from wilderness, and that a 1966 regulation allowing for any human-powered transport specifically allowed them. In 1977, bicycles and hangliders were specifically forbidden, though, and in 1984, a new set of regulations cut out various wheeled transportation, from bikes to baby strollers.
“Nobody denies that a bicycle is a mechanical device. The question is what kinds of mechanical devices Congress wanted to allow,” said Ted Stroll, a San Jose, Calif., mountain biker and lawyer who has advocated for including bikes in wilderness in publications from the New York Times to the Penn State Law Review.
If land managers wanted to exclude all mechanical devices, Stroll said, they’d have to exclude shock-absorbing hiking poles, high-tech ski bindings and fishing rods.
Wilderness advocates say Congress knew what it was doing when it banned not just motorized but mechanized transport.
“It’s important that there are places that are still big, where the peace of nature is what prevails, the forces of nature shall hold forth,” Jones said. “What is a three-day (backpacking trip) could be somebody’s afternoon workout on a mountain bike.”
Wilderness B advocates seek to sidestep the arguments over allowing bikes in wilderness by creating a new designation. Many wilderness advocates, though, believe that rather than strengthening ordinary land protections, Wilderness B would dilute wilderness-worthy landscapes.
“I think it’s unfortunate for mountain bikers to decide they want to take away from wilderness protection rather than enlarge landscape protection more broadly,” Jones said. “I mountain bike. I drive a car. I support wilderness. Those are not incompatible at all. There’s a place for everything. I believe wilderness should be wilderness.”
The issue has come to a head on the White River National Forest in western Colorado, where the group Wilderness Workshop is proposing 340,000 acres for Hidden Gems wilderness protection. IMBA has endorsed a portion of that plan, which would protect 88,710 new acres of wilderness in Eagle and Summit counties and companion areas where mountain biking would be allowed.
Elsewhere on the forest, though, mountain bikers have balked at new wilderness.
“The mountain biking community is not homogenous,” said Wilderness Workshop Executive Director Sloan Shoemaker. “There are extremes on both ends of that community. The one extreme believes all wilderness should be eliminated and mountain bikers should be able to go where they want.”
Mountain bikes may have a light footprint when it comes to trail impacts, Shoemaker said, but they can take a toll on wildlife.
“It’s the ability for a mountain biker, a strong mountain biker on today’s machines, to cover 60 miles in a day,” he said. “That shrinks those last wild places pretty small and spreads the reach and impact and disturbance pretty broadly across the landscape.”
Shoemaker said he could support something like a Wilderness B, a wilderness for bikes, as long as it adds to land protections rather than takes them away.
“I think there’s merit to this notion,” he said, “but our community doesn’t embrace it as a substitute. We embrace it as an addition to wilderness quality lands.”
David Frey writes in Glenwood Springs, Colo. Follow him at www.davidmfrey.com and on Twitter.
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Comments
Also, wilderness b is being falsely described as an attempt to pit mt bikes in all of the current wilderness. That is not the case. The current wilderness would be unchanged. As many of the areas now being considered for wilderness designations are places where bikes are currently being ridden, it is an means to allow protection without taking away access to a valid group of users.
The 1964 Wilderness Act set aside lands “where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man,”
In a true wilderness there would be no human recreation. The only people allowed to enter would be those managing the wilderness, or doing scientific research. They should be allowed to choose the least impactful and most effective method to get the job done.
Short trip, light load = on foot
Long distance, light load = bike
Heavy load = horse
Banning all recreation in wilderness areas is the only way to stop the debate from being hijacked by peoples self interest. Wilderness areas are for preserving nature.
I am a mountain biker and hiker. I am not happy that I can't ride in wilderness areas. However, I care more about preserving nature than my own wants.
Bikes do not have more impact than hikers, and less than horses. If hikers and equestrians really cared about preserving nature they would support a ban on all recreation in wilderness areas, not single out one type of low impact transport to ban.
The fact is, Sloan Shoemaker's Wilderness Workshop doesn't embrace the idea of companion designations at all. They had an opportunity, here in Summit & Eagle Counties, to nearly double the protected acreage of the Hidden gems Wilderness Proposal by using bicycle friendly companion designations. They refused.
To counter Wilderness Workshop's Hidden Gems (W)ilderness plan, The Roaring Fork Mountain Bike Alliance came up with their own plan. The RFMBA plan set aside areas where companion designations could be implemented, while retaining the exact amount of acreage set aside for (W)ilderness designation. Again, Sloan Shoemaker's Wilderness Workshop refused.
There are going to be companion designated areas in Summit & Eagle Counties. However, they were brought about through negotiations between the local mountain bike advocacy group Summit Fat Tire Society) and Colorado's 2nd district Congressman, Jared Polis. Sloan Shoemaker & his Wilderness Workshop continue to toot their own horn when in the media spotlight, while his statements above do not reflect how his group works locally.
shame these mtn bikers take up the headlines and prevent so much wilderness.
we don't want your boulder, colorado idea of "wilderness" in MT.
We provide a home for grizz, wolverines, wolves etc.
we don't need bikes in these areas as one needs to be cautious/aware in real MT wilderness.
The author’s interchangeable usage of the meaning of (w)ilderness only adds confusion to this important conservation and access issue.
wil·der·ness n:
1. a mostly uninhabited area of land such as a forest or mountainous region in its natural uncultivated state, SOMETIMES deliberately preserved like this.
2. an area that is empty or barren.
3. a piece of land, for example, in a garden, that is deliberately not cultivated but is left to grow wild.
To be clear: Mountain Bicycling is presently allowed in ALL (w)ilderness areas that are not Congressionally designated (W)ilderness areas.
Frey also writes ‘[bicyclists] urge supporters to press elected officials to create “a sister designation” to wilderness, one with all of wilderness protections, and with bikes.’ Such a ‘sister designation’ or 'Wilderness B' is not a new concept or precedent setting idea – National Protection Areas have already been used to accomplish this goal.
Keeping in mind that (W)ilderness is not a religion or first amendment right but a land protection tool - what are WE protecting with a Congressional (W)ilderness designation that cannot be accomplished with a well written, strongly worded, legally binding and collaboratively supported companion designation that offers the SAME protection for wildlife and watersheds from mining, logging, new roads, structures and expanded motorized use but still allows bicycling on SOME important TRAILS within a larger protected LANDSCAPE that could / would include new bicycle banning Wilderness acreage?? Are these not the goals of the (W)ilderness organizations and advocates?
If we are not talking about getting bicycles into existing (W)ilderness Areas but rather the protection of deserving (w)ildscapes in the future, what is the argument here?
Personally I can share with the top of the food chain out in the wilds knowing that I could be their next free lunch. Personal responsibility comes with the backcountry territory.
GRRRRR!
Wilderness B isn't attempting to gain access to existing Wilderness for bicycles, only to create a workable solution that protects MTB access in current non-"W" designated lands that are being put forth as Wilderness-worthy.
In answer to Sloan's "60-miles-per-day" argument, the vast majority of acreage of the proposal currently in his wheelhouse (Hidden Gems) is within 2 miles of a significant highway or community. The 60-miles argument is just smoke. A red herring designed to deflect reason from the argument.
Further, Gems spokespeople have gone on record as saying that they’ve ‘reinterpreted’ the current definition of Wilderness in order to rationalize almost the entire proposal (most of which can be viewed from I-70 of State Highway 9 in Summit County). So I’ll put it to you, readers - “Just WHO is diluting the definition of Wilderness?”
And Ms. Jones? Mountain bikers aren't taking away from Wilderness protection. We're trying to ADD to it by seeking common ground solutions that preserve existing access while still offering a level of protection that your group can get behind, even if only grudgingly so. Current Wilderness proposals across the west decimate MTB access. What have YOU done to meet that community in the middle?
We're offering a solution. One that will bring a large and vocal group of your detractors over to your side. We're for Wilderness. We simply want to see existing trail access in proposed Wilderness maintained. We've offered companion designations, boundary adjustments, special-use corridors and cherry stems as solutions. We've offered a solution that would integrate Wilderness with companion designations and more than double the amount of Congressionally protected land, yet still you refuse to entertain ANY solution coming from our side.
Every solution that we've offered has been roundly criticized by your group, sneered at and marginalized in the media and become subject to outright lies and innuendo. Again I'll ask you - what have you done to earn the support of the MTB community?
We're not willing to concede one inch more. You see us as standing in the way. We see you as standing in your own way, hidebound by doctrine and dogma that won't allow you to entertain the possibility that asking us to sacrifice again and again and again, forgoing more and more access each time is an unsustainable dynamic. We've reached the end. Either find a way to enter a solution-based dialogue or be prepared to meet us as adversaries each and every step of the way.
There's a new dog in the fight. Feel free to chalk this up to just so much sabre-rattling, but we've got resources that equal and exceed yours and the right leadership in place to marshal them. Here’s a little food for thought; with us on your side many of these proposals would have gone to vote in a friendly Congress and would have been passed already.
To those who would describe us as victims; I don’t see any of us as victims. I see us as champions of common sense. If the public lands protection movement is so well off that it can rebuff an olive branch from a sizable human-powered user group that would have very little negative impact on current Wilderness (other than philosophical), yet would yield massive land protection gains, then so be it.
- We offer thousands upon thousands upon thousands of stewards committed to the land.
- We offer real compromise that would have ZERO impact on existing Wilderness.
- We offer a solution that would DOUBLE the amount of Congressionally protected lands in perpetuity.
- We offer a massive and motivated voter base supported to your cause…OUR cause.
- We offer the transformation of a formidable adversary into an ally.
We offer peace. And seek peace in return. And to that end, we offer solutions to accomplish those goals.
Victims? Hardly.
I am sick to death of people so wrapped up in their karmic purity, their elitist attitude that they, and ONLY they, can properly appreciate capitalized "Nature."
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7165553/
Well put. The only solution is to lobby the federal agencies to end the current misinterpretation of the Act, and let bicycles in Wilderness. That will end the debate and will increase the Wilderness acreage. The wildernuts won't budge because they're incapable of it. Wilderness is their new religion, and they're the new fanatics. Ultimately, common sense will prevail. Question is how long will the purists stand in the way?
No doubt. Again, the real debate is not here, it's with the government agencies and some politicians. We can all talk until we're blue in the face, none of us will change our stance and nothing will happen. Lobbying Washington is what really matters. I believe that the reason we're seeing so much animosity from the anti cycling side is because they sense that change is coming and they desperately want to cling on to the existing discriminatory model.
wilderness b for bikes ok for new wilerness/roadless, but not in existing wilderness unless historcial documentation pre-wilderness.
mtn bikers use the ultimatum that if you don't support our access into lots of wild lands we're against all of it.
folks like zebulon who seem bent on mtn bike access into all wilderness areas need to get real, zebulon your the pathetic anti-wilderness FANATIC so quit your pouting.
Ted Stroll is not honest enough to admit that he is a mountain biker promoting mountain biking (he euphemistically called it "trail cycling"). Nor the fact that mountain bikers are capable of walking, just like everyone else -- just too lazy to DO it.
Bicycles should not be allowed in any natural area. They are inanimate objects and have no rights. There is also no right to mountain bike. That was settled in federal court in 1994:
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10 . It's dishonest of mountain bikers to say that they don't have access to trails closed to bikes.
They have EXACTLY the same access as everyone else -- ON FOOT! Why isn't that good enough for mountain bikers? They are all capable of walking....
A favorite myth of mountain bikers is that mountain biking is no more harmful to wildlife, people, and the environment than hiking, and that science supports that view. Of course, it's not true. To settle the matter once and for all, I read all of the research they cited, and wrote a review of the research on mountain biking impacts (see
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7 ). I found that of the seven studies they cited, (1) all were written by mountain bikers, and (2) in every case, the authors misinterpreted their own data, in order to come to the conclusion that they favored. They also studiously avoided mentioning another scientific study (Wisdom et al) which did not favor mountain biking, and came to the opposite conclusions.
Those were all experimental studies. Two other studies (by White et al and by Jeff Marion) used a survey design, which is inherently incapable of answering that question (comparing hiking with mountain biking). I only mention them because mountain bikers often cite them, but scientifically, they are worthless.
Mountain biking accelerates erosion, creates V-shaped ruts, kills small animals and plants on and next to the trail, drives wildlife and other trail users out of the area, and (worst of all) teaches kids that the rough treatment of nature is okay (it's NOT!). What's good about THAT?
For more information: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtbfaq .
read this
Janet Powelson 5 months ago
As a witness to the incident I'd like to share some facts. We were walking on a trail where bikes are not allowed. We all hand gardening tools in our hands because we were heading to the top of the ridge to cut down invasive broom. Mike did not "attack" the cyclists. He asked them to stop. He held up his hand when he did so. That hand happened to have a saw in it. As the cyclist passed Mike he was grazed by the saw.
The UC police officer that called me a month later to interview me failed to include anything in his official report of that conversation that indicated this was merely an accident.
Are you aware that if a cyclist hits a hiker they will be charged with assault with a deadly weapon? Please consider this as you speed along trails where hikers are present.
If UC police actually enforced the no bikes on the trail rule they can avoid a tragic accident that is just waiting to happen. "
"
My name is Jason Richards and i've worked in the woods all my life.
I live in Montana and we have real wild country here, I don't want no bay area bike trails claiming more wild country. Look at the rattlesnake mtns coverd by bikers who write profanity on signs, swear at people in trails and are an overall dominating presence including illegal rides in the wilderness.
Montana and the northern rockies is for folks who want to learn and explore the woods, mtns and plains on it's terms not some thrill trail.
Go to colorado or california for a mtn bike experience, shame how much wild country is gone from those places.
2.7% of the land in the lower 48 is wilderness.
BTW Gary Fisher himself stated that it'sall about money. Mtn bike companies know if they get access into wilderness areas they can make more and more profits.
I believe the common understanding is that bikes and hikers do about the same and horses do far more. Propably better to go to the original studies than a site built by an anti mt bike zealot in any case.
Michael J Vandeman has a PhD in Psychology & Mathematics, not environmental or ecological sciences. Any one of us can make up our own "studies" and post, just as Michael J Vandeman has. The pacbell site is nothing more than one man's opinion with little to no scientific merit. Incidentally, he was jailed for attacking a mountain biker with a handsaw. I would sooner believe the Berkeley PD's report than Janet Powelson's above testimony. I don't believe everything I read on the inter-webs. Respectfully, I encourage you to do your own research before relying solely on Michael J Vandeman's words.
http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/10-052810-37NC.htm
and ya, if everyone rode responsibility, yetta yetta. Kinda like all of the dog owners that let the pooch off leash to chase game and poop all over. Sooo, pleeze save me from the notion that mountain bikes are not destructive. Sometime go up to the Salida Co area and see what the local bike shop folks have encouraged on the trails in that area. As far as the Gated Emerald City of Boulder, we have long ago ceded that area to the East Coast...
Well, in this case common sense isn't very common.
A bicycle wheel ROLLS.
When a wheel "rolls" it does not leave a furrow. When a wheel is stopped and skids it may leave a furrow. A well designed trail should have a gradient shallow enough that it does not require a wheel to be stopped or skid.
I understand your need to seize on anything that looks relevant to defend your position Big Sky, Mr. Vandeman is neither relevant nor accurate in his conclusions.
By using his "studies" to make your case you have demonstrated what little you know about the impact of a bike wheel VS an animal hoof.
Jason, that takes guts to post under your real name and make your point, thank you.
I also live in SW Montana and ride here. The area is perfectly suitable for mountain biking.
The area you mention the "Rattlesnake Mountains" suffers from the problem that many areas nearby have been closed to mountain bikes, forcing them to use trails that are already crowded and leading to conflicts. That is one issue that many do not seem to grasp. By concentrating bicycle usage you increase the likelihood of more conflicts between user groups.
Again, even though we may disagree I appreciate you making your point in such a way.
See you on a trail.
It appears the bike crowd has a bone to pick with Mr. Vandeham. I could care less what degree he has and do keep in mind fellas, I have seen more MA and PHDS with so little common sense I don't know why anyone listens to them anyway.....I wonder how many mountain bikers were out in the woods cutting broom as a volunteer activity? Appears to me to be a kindly gentlemen who saw some bikers biking illegially and told them to stop. Old news, anyway.
These biker boys get riled up easily.....Ha Ha, must be some money in this equation somewheres....
Tit for tat Big Sky, aren't stereotypes fun?
"Wheels leave furrows in mud. (take your bike out and try it)."
Another point of ignorance from you.
I don't need nor want to try it.
Mountain Biking on muddy trails is not any fun. If it is muddy, I stay home or do something else. Riding on muddy trails is very damaging to the trail and to my bike. FAIL!
"These biker boys get riled up easily.....Ha Ha,"
Is that your whole point? To troll up a reaction?
So much for your opinions. Goodbye.
The whole point is to troll up a reaction, and I got one.
Ignorance and mountain bikers go hand in hand, and I certainly don't mean all mountain bikers, just the ones like you.
Tit for Tat....I don't have to sterotype, that is what you people are.
So much for your opinions, Goodbye.
It simply shows that this is all about one thing: not wanting to share. Shame on you, wildernuts!
Big Sky, you are a moronic troll.
I am just a Moron.
I really don't know where you're coming from. From my experience, the average MTBer is in his (sometimes hers) 30s or 40s, and is just trying to have fun. I don't really hear the f. bomb. Even if we did, it has nothing to do with whether cycling should be allowed in Wilderness. All I read is a bunch of personal reasons why certain people don't like cyclists. It simply reinforces my belief that the arguments are all smoke screen for hikers that simply don't want to share their tax payer funded piece of heaven.
Joyeux Noel
If we ignore it, it will go away to bother some other site.
walking.
http://salsacycles.com/bikes/mukluk/
This would be low enough pressure to prevent soil damage.
just go crawl back into the hole you came from in salmon shitty milburn.
http://www.bowcycle.com/bikes/blogs/viks-picks/2009/01/26/surly-pugsley-review/
This fellow seems to have no problem with riding on muddy trails.
Name calling will not help any aspect of any part of our planet and world that is not man made. Will not help keep water clean and viable for life, will not help air stay clean so that our collective health is maintained. Will not help feed anyone, or teach anyone to appreciate beauty.
Name calling - "anti" this and "pro" that will not help anyone or anything at any time.
The word "environmentalist" that many love to loathe is not a bad word nor are the people bad. It's just an idea and needs to be appreciated and we all should be concerned with the environment unless every one opposed to "enviros" would like to breathe the exhaust from a car directly or inhale smoke from smoker he has exhaled into a paper bag or worse.
Bikers and hikers - I've nearly been run over by some barreling down hill and been given a "heads up" by others. I've had my dog run over and also had well behaved bikers stop to avoid an accident. Some trails in some wilderness areas could be opened to bicycles and some should be feet on the ground only.
What is overlooked by many is to try to understand the value of wilderness.
So while many are name calling and using words of hate about others both here and in Washington, I might suggest that everyone stop yelling and screaming and whining and talk - talk about a vision for the future where all living breathing organisms are going to be better off.
I see one group attempting to broker compromise and another thumping the "not in my back yard" drum.
When a person is going up hill he or she may hear the bird, stream, or animal . How about when rushing downhill. Is the experience about man vs land or is it about appreciating what is going on around him or her? Is it the tough trail /terrain or the beauty? Can you see the flower that grows no where else? Hear the bird?
What is wrong with learning to appreciate Nature in all its aspects? What is it in some men (and some women too, perhaps) that wants to turn things not man made into things completely controlled by men. And, anyway, we can destroy in minutes all that is left of the natural world if we choose to do so.
So what to do about teaching the value of wilderness and why it should be understood and protected.
Where does the urge and drive to destroy it and wish it gone come from?
No trail cyclist I know wants to wield a bicycle as a weapon to dominate designated federal wilderness areas (i.e., capital-W Wilderness) or other Wilderness area users, or use a bicycle to blot out the natural features of Wilderness or the solitude it (ideally) offers in favor of some sort of unsavory thrill.
I've seen creepy, insecure pit bull owners use their dogs to unnerve and intimidate people walking on the streets of San Francisco, so I know what you're thinking of. But mountain bikers are a different breed (pun not necessarily intended).
The reason we want Wilderness access is to appreciate it for what it is. A mountain bike allows one to do that in a different, but entirely beneficial, way from other forms of rugged, self-reliant travel. You can cover more distance, with an impact no greater than hikers' and less than that of overnight backpackers (to say nothing of horse-riders' impact). It provides for a different sensory experience, because you're not plodding along with a heavy groaning pack and tending to blisters, but to say that it's less valuable is merely a preconceived prejudice based on ignorance, muleheadedness, or a kind of religious fervor.
Wilderness ordinarily is topographically challenging and doesn't lend itself to wild rides. Mountain bikers mostly will be rolling along about walking speed when eventually we gain legal Wilderness access. Or, on some downhill trail sections, perhaps 10 or 15 mph.
The "urge and drive to destroy it and wish it gone" you perceive is entirely divorced from the reality of mountain bikers' reasons to want access to Wilderness by bicycle. They're no different from those of other nonmotorized user groups.
May I assume that you don't ride a mountain bike, or at least not in a rugged and wild setting? If not, try it. You'll be pleasantly surprised, and then you'll wonder why the federal agencies prohibit bicycle travel in Wilderness when Congress never ordered the restriction. You may also wonder why the law ironically permits luxury commercial dude-ranch and packstock trips into the same Wilderness areas, toting wealthy and overweight beer drinkers from Dallas or Philadelphia as the commercial outfitters' large mammals damage and/or foul trails, campsites, streams, and foliage, all in the service of profit.
I vote to let the native Americans whose land this was decide who can go in Wilderness areas. Maybe they'll say humble and quiet bicyclists are OK but self-righteous Wilderness purists who forget whose land this was in 1600 (and instead believe in the fantasy of a "pristine" "untrammeled" virgin paradise untouched by anyone before John C. Fremont and Juan Bautista de Anza came along, as though the native peoples weren't really human) may stay away until they shed their pompousness and self-importance and relearn the history of these lands.
Love the pit bull angle, very appropriate to this situation. The weapon comparison is also nice, and applies here also. I love the "heavy groaning pack and tending to blisters". I have felt that way before, no doubt.
No mechanical vehicals allowed in wilderness, end of story. Spittle all you want on how you will change washington. The impacts are tremendous.
Yep, horses have an impact, no doubt. But they are not mechanized......
The solution that we've put forth is pretty simple; we support ALL pending Wilderness proposals. Every single acre. With the exception of the trails already on the ground that we already use. For those we advocate corridors of Wilderness B.
Whether that designation makes more sense as corridors or as a companion designation that would be used with boundary adjustments is to be determined and perhaps best left to those on the ground in the affected areas.
This middle ground strategy could be considered a significant step forward in the process of learning to live with each other and share SOME (not all) trails.
Conservationists need to work together, because divided we fall. And we will fall if this bickering and lack of reasonable compromise is allowed to continue.
@prgamtist
your a delusional bigot period. your comments are soo prejudiced and illogical it's hillarious. ...And when you attempt to speak for wilderness advocates or "purists" as you call them your look like such a bigoted fool.
yeah i'm calling names becuase he asked for it period.
get a life all you live for is gaining access to any/all wilderness on your trikey
LMAO @ this san jose, CA anti wilderness lawyer mtn biker.
is your pack too heavy poor baby here's your stroller.
Native americans DO have their own wilderness areas. They're called tribal wilderness, and guess what no mtn bikes allowed. In fact tribal wilderness has stricter regualtions than traditional USFS wilderness. Tribal wilderness has adopted group size limits that the USFS is considering implementing in certain wilderness areas.
I guess the native americans are on the side of the "pompous, self righteous wilderness purists"
Also pragmatists how about you come up with some evidence that there were slaves, prostitution etc in wilderness areas like the Bob Marshall. Of course these things were occuring in the 1800's west elsewhere, but most wilerness areas are way back in the Mtns. and never had the impacts you claim. In fact part of qualofying fo wilderness designation is having negligable human impacts on the land. Your lack of knowledge about wilderness is very apparent as is your hatred for conservationists/wilderness advocates.
When you make ludicrous claims about wilderness advocates and native americans you look seriuosly pathetic and bigoted.
You claim that wilderness advocates think pre-coulmbian america was not used by humans...where do you come up with your bigoted babble?
You claim that wilerness advocates view native americans as not "really human"
well it appears the native americans are on our side you bigoted fool.
In 1979 the Confederated Salish and Kootenai tribes designated 89,500 acres of privately owned tribal lands along the western slopes as Wilderness. This is the only Tribal Wilderness in the nation to be established by the actual tribe. In the words of the Mission Mountains Committee: 'These mountains belong to our children, and when our children grow old they will belong to their children. In this way and for this reason these mountain are sacred.'
The west side Tribal Wilderness is managed with a priority for wildlife. Each summer grizzlies gather on the snow fields of McDonald Peak to feast on swarms of cutworm moths and ladybugs. In order to avoid displacing these great bears, the tribe closes about 12,000 acres to all public use from mid-July to October, The closed area is part of a larger trail less region that serves to discourage humans from entering the grizzly's home during a critical time.
If you are not a tribal member, and are between the ages of 18 and 64, you must obtain and carry a tribal recreation permit, which entitles you to hike, fish, camp and enjoy the Wilderness as well as other Flathead Reservation lands that are open to recreation. The permits are available at a number of stores within and near the reservation communities of Missoula, Kalispell, Seeley Lake, and Thompson Falls. Despite the permits, tribal managers downplay regulations in favor of education. If people understand the need for no-trace camping and grizzly bear closures around McDonald Peak, enforcement problems will be minimal."
Does'nt sound like NA's want mtn bikers ripping through Grizz habitat does it pragmatist?
Personally I don't even visit the tribal wilderness, becuase i'm willing to put wildlife's needs over my own recreational pursuits unlike mtn bikers. Imagine the hissy fit the mtn bikers would throw if areas of national forest were closed for wildlife. The increased stress on wildlife in remote areas due to mtn bikes in undeniable, even teddy stroll says that mtn bikes increase you ability to penetrate remote areas in shorter time.
I agree with Pragmatist on one thing why not let Native American's manage our wilderness areas and decide who gets to enter them. I'd say they're doing a better job managing their tribal wilderness than the USFS is managing other wilderness areas, with all the rampant outfitting degrading wilderness areas for profit.
When you act like a bigoted fool like pragmatist posting false information/LIES, bigoted assumptions and outlandish claims about native americans and wilderness advocates expect to be called out for what you are.
"muleheaded, ignorant, religious fevor (cult?)"
Pragmatist calls wilderness advocates
"pompous, self important and living in a dreamworld"
Last time I checked those were insults, it appears as though the anti-wilderness mtn bikers are hypocritical and incapable of making an honest analysis of comments as well.
When you bark at people like that expect a BITE back!
GW's comment could easily be used to describe the pro-mountain biker crowd in this thread.
link here:
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/mountain_biking_and_wilderness_not_convinced/C587/L564/
Impacts - Bikes travel can travel at high speeds and cover many miles in a day. This allows wilderness users to reach areas that otherwise may see little impact on wildlife, trails, and other resources.
Wilderness Character - A mountain bike does not present itself as of "primeval character and influence". This is of course subjective, but you cannot discount it. "Recreation is valuable in proportion to the intensity of its experiences and to the degree to which it differs from and contrasts with workaday life." - Aldo Leopold. To me, bikes do not differ very much.
Solitude - Again a bike can travel at greater speeds and greater distances than current users allowing access to areas that may otherwise take a couple days to get to. This changes the very nature of the wilderness on the recreation side of things.
Mechanized Transport - No explanation needed.
We may travel further in a day, but we don't stay. Overnight backpackers' impact is certainly greater when you consider the footprint left behind by campsites, defecating, trampling vegetation from bush-wacking and campsite selection, cutting switchbacks to see the view, etc.
Also boats, kayaks, and skis can and often do travel at greater speeds than that of cyclists. Should they too be barred from Wilderness?
Mechanized transport? That's an ambiguous argument. Do vibram soles, anti-shock hiking poles, give a mechanical advantage, similar to that of a bicycle? You bet. If taken word for word, we would be prohibited from simply carrying (transporting) a fishing rod (mechanical device) through Wilderness. Of course, this was never what Congress intended when writing the Wilderness Act. A 1961 statement by Senator Clinton P. Anderson of New Mexico, made when Senator Anderson introduced a prior version of the Wilderness Act in the Senate. In a passage titled "Wilderness Recreation," Senator Anderson stated, as relevant here: "Yet we must recognize and emphasize more than we have the values of wilderness recreation in providing for the health and vigor of our citizens. ".
Wilderness is not a religion, it is a land protection tool. Today, we have several 'tools' in the and protection tool-kit. Let's not confuse the tool (Wilderness designation) for the goal (preservation and protection of our natural resources). Recreation is not the enemy, extractive industries are.
Who here is anti-wilderness, Tony? I've capitalized the 'false information/LIES' for you to see below.
Mike McCormack says "The solution that we've put forth is pretty simple; [WE SUPPORT ALL PENDING WILDERNESS PROPOSALS. EVERY SINGLE ACRE.] With the exception of the trails already on the ground that we already use. For those we advocate corridors of Wilderness B."
Bob Allen says "Keeping in mind that (W)ilderness is not a religion or first amendment right but a land protection tool - what are WE protecting with a Congressional (W)ilderness designation that cannot be accomplished with a well written, strongly worded, legally binding and collaboratively supported companion designation that offers the SAME protection for wildlife and watersheds from mining, logging, new roads, structures and expanded motorized use [BUT STILL ALLOWS BICYCLING ON -SOME- IMPORTANT TRAILS] within a larger protected LANDSCAPE that could / would include new bicycle banning Wilderness acreage?? Are these not the goals of the (W)ilderness organizations and advocates?"
Speed: bikes average travel speed: 6 to 9mph. Not exactly break neck speed.
Impact: bikes travel greater distance, but so do horses. Cyclists don't camp inside the parks, and are only there for a few hours. By your own reasoning, if hikers go slower, they impact a given area more simply because they're there longer. Seems to me that it really does not matter.
Solitude: well, that's not part of the Act. Furthermore, what this really means is that current users don't want to share Wilderness because they like it the way it is. Truth is: the backcountry is fairly empty and encounters would be few and far between a couple miles from the trailhead. Real world impact: not much.
Mechanized transport: read Ted Stroll analysis of the act. Bikes were clearly meant to be included. They're no more mechanized than many contraptions currently used in wilderness.
Again, no real arguments against cycling.
Secondly, mountain bikers can and do camp, to say otherwise is dishonest. It may not be common, but most hikers do not camp either in my experience.
Solitude is certainly an legislated part of the act. It is one of the requirements for an area to be wilderness... "has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation;"
As to mechanized transport, yes it is ambiguous. I can pull quotes from when the act was drafted also. But it remains that the act says mechanized and not motorized. A walking stick could be a machine...
And this gets to my next point. If mountain bikes were in such high use at the time of the act, why were they not mentioned ever or discussed? The only other possibility is that they were not in use and certainly do not then meet the primitive and primeval characteristics laid out by the act.
"My trip to Stanley Hot Springs was full of surprises. This was my first trip into the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness, which was the 1st Wilderness Area designated in Idaho and one of the first of the entire United States. It lies directly north of the massive Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness, and is separated from the Frank by only one road, the Magruder Road.
We broke camp at Wilderness Gateway Campground at 4am in an effort to beat the heat. We were unfortunate to arrive during a week-long heat wave of mid-90s to 100+ temperatures. The last part of the hike down to Rock Creek was rough. There was little water, the trail was thrashed and loaded with horse poop due to extreme outfitter activity - in many places it was like hiking up jagged stairs. And, horse traffic on the trail proved cumbersome as the heat ratcheted up.
Horses have the right-of-way here, so every time they are encountered backpackers and hikers have to get off the trail, approx. 5-6 feet below the horses and crush beautiful foliage as a result while the horses pass and kick rocks and dirt all over the party below. This makes for slow going, and if you have heavy backpacks on can really suck. We had to do it 4 times. Some of the outfitters were actually upset at having to deal with us backpackers, I think it was because our dogs spooked their horses and one of them spilled their beer. All in this particular party were drinking beer and smoking cigars while on the trail."
The Wildernes Act specifically states "Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act". So how do you feel about commercial outfitter/packstock trips? These trips have a tremendous impact, while independent studies, as well as USFS studies, have concluded that fat tires have the same impact, and in some cases less, than a hiker's.
If impact is an issue significant to keep cyclists out of wilderness, then it needs to be applied to everyone, including existing users. If cyclists go faster, they then impact all areas less than hikers that stay in a given area longer. It's a wash. Horse packs that go deep in wilderness for multiple days impact wilderness more than any cyclist would ever do, and yet that does not bother anybody. Why is that?
Only a very small percentage of cyclists I know camp. The vast majority (i.e. 95% plus) go out for a day and come back. Bike camping is a bear, which is why so few do it.
Solitude: I don't see how cyclists are excluded under that requirement. If too many users enter wilderness, then set a quota.
There were no mountain bikes in 1964 as we know them now. However, that does not mean that they would be excluded under the act. Again, read Ted Stroll analysis. He's documented pretty well why bikes should be allowed.
"Solitude: I don't see how cyclists are excluded under that requirement. If too many users enter wilderness, then set a quota. "
Bikes allow users to reach deeper into a wilderness area in less time. It impacts the solitude of these areas. It isn't just about number of users.
And still unanswered... How are bikes primitive or primeval in character?
Where is it written in the Wilderness Act that 'depth vs time' should be an issue? It isn't. You're presenting a straw man argument. My bicycle lets me appreciate the solitude of such areas. It is not up to you, or any other individuals, to decide for others how they should appreciate nature. A few minutes after I roll away, you'd never even know I was there at all.
These soldiers rode bikes on dirt in 1897.
But the dynamics of that solitude have changed. What takes an overnight trip is now done in a single day. It seems to me part of the intent of the act, by prohibiting so many forms of transportation, was to keep it that way.
Yet a bike is still not primitive where as a backpack is. You try sticking 'frame' in there to make it not so primitive but I would wager that someone at some point thousands of years ago used a stick or leather or something else to make it a bit more comfortable. Still, a frame backpack is basically a sack that is thrown over a shoulder...
You say "it seems to me" when interpreting the Act. It is not up to us to re-interpret the law as we see fit. Again, Wilderness is not a first amendment right or a religion. It is A way to manage public land.
Speaking of which... We have many ways to protect our natural resources that offer many levels of preservation. Companion designations offer land management decisions to be made by folks with boots-on-the-ground knowledge, rather than Washington. Areas could see a "tailored fit" protection package that includes Wilderness cores surrounded by Companion buffers. Decision makers could, with support of their communities at large, build consensus and protect MORE acreage with the use of these alternative designations (i.e. National Recreation Area, National Protection Area, National Conservation Area, and hopefully Wilderness B). It is just about 2011. We need to explore the notion that Wilderness isn't always 'the only' or 'the best' way to protect/manage our wild lands.
Bottom line: plenty of mechanical contraptions are allowed in wilderness, but somehow the wheel is too mechanized for the wilderness supporters...
I think that the various threads here have clearly shown that there is no rational argument to ban bikes. I don't like walking, so I'll ride where I want and where it does not impact anything.
"our wilderness areas". Last I check, it's everybody's, although it clearly highlights the feeling of entitlement by current legal users.
Now, the real point is whether cyclists' arguments will get us somewhere. I believe that as the current generation of wildernuts in their 50's and 60's is retiring from various governmental agencies and is being replaced by a generation that grew up with mountain bikes, we stand a good chance, in my lifetime, to see cycling legalized again in wilderness. That should not stop us from riding it now, but it'd be nice not to get fined when caught. BTW, I heard that in quite a few places, rangers could care less if cyclists ride in wilderness...
Of course, let's not forget this reality: cyclists will keep fighting new wilderness until we get to ride in it. This alone should make you more amenable to cycling, but apparently you'd rather cut your nose to spite your face...
Happy new year without any new wilderness.
Of course, with the advent on mountain bikes in wilderness, we will of course allow electric and motorized vehicals also, and the experience for all will be lost.
Afterall, we can't keep one group out. That would be discrimination, so lets make it a free for all......regardless of the impacts on wildlife and peoples attitudes towards wilderness itself
After all, if you could just get off your butt and WALK like the rest of us.....
Quoted for hilarity
I'll walk when I'm too old and fat to ride my bike. About you man up, and start riding a mountain bike? ;)
"I don't like to walk.
I'll walk when i'm too old and fat to ride my bike.
we can still ride stealthily" in wilderness areas?
I would like to see the authorities prosecute people who boast about theri crimes on-line, it's already been done with the wolf poachers. Is'nt it about time this zebulon's IP address is tracked so he can be prosecuted for his continual boasts of breaking federal law by riding his mtn bike in USFS or other wilderness areas?
I've seen several posts where zebluon boasts about breaking the law and advices other mtn biker to do the same by "riding stealthy" in wilderness areas.
impacts on wildlife alone are enough to justify not allowing mtn bikes in wilderness areas. It's a fact y penetrating remote areas more oftently than backpacker/horse packers mtn bikers disturn wildlife in a much more negative way by displacing them from more and more habtitat. Backpakcing/horse packer sites tend to stay in the same, imacted areas.
For all the reasons mtn bikers have with horses are just all the more reason not to allow additional stress on wilderness areas, which in certain areas are obviuosly severly stressed bu human impacts.
I don't own a horse and if you undertsood my points above you would know i'm acknowledging that stock use has a tremedous impact and we dont need mtn bikes adding to it in our already used/abused wilderness areas.
Great argument ab you articulate yor postion so proficiently.
Keep making up facts as you go if that makes you feel better about your anti cycling stance.
Bikes, Horses, Feet, and paws all leave an impact. To limit these impacts, land use policy needs to exist, or none-shall-pass rules need to exist. The Wilderness Act has clear guidelines to it, but beyond that the guidelines for all other national land are determined by the area, which makes for really unclear rules. This is especially true in areas where BLM, National Forest, National Park, etc. lands adjoin. What a wilderness-B designation should do is clarify the rules of the trail.
I think Wilderness-B is a good first step, though with a terrible name. Wilderness means something to the outdoor community, and branding something with a "W" in the name is going to cause issue. I do wonder if this was a "Natural Places" act with 2 or 3 levels of distinction (A: similar to wilderness but allows bikes, B: allowance for small motor vehicles (atv, sowmobiles, etc), C: Off road traffic (Jeep trail access)) If the fury would be so hot.
No facts need to be made up. Keep your expensive mountain bike on the road where it belongs."
That's probably the funniest thing you've written so far. Talk about ending the year with a bang!
all you do is troll and tell other they dont have a reason to not want bikes in wilderness areas. You refuse to listen to what others have to say about bikes in wilderness and your very arrogant and ignorant. The only one making upo things is you, people have presented numerous reasons to not want bikes in wilderness but none seem to make it through your thivk skull.
BTW i've reported you to the authorites for you continual boasts about breaking federal law by riding your mtn bike in wilderness areas as well as your encouragement to other mtn bikes to break the law as well.
Happy new Year zeb.
All I've read from you and your ilk is a bunch of made up reasons to not have bikes. The truth is that you don't want to share because that inconveniences you personnally. I can understand that position, but since we're talking about taxpayer funded open space, it really does not fly. If you want a hiker's paradise, you should get together with your friends, and buy your own.
You mention solitude. You're right that a chance at "solitude" is a core value set forth in the Wilderness Act of 1964, the other being "primitive and unconfined" recreation. (16 U.S.C. § 1131.) I completely relate to your feelings about solitude. I was out mountain biking yesterday, on a steep steady climb. I prefer to do such hard efforts by myself, but another mountain biker of about the same ability happened to be there, so we climbed together for two or three miles. It detracted from the experience. I relish solitude most of the time I'm riding, and I usually get it too, because of where and when I go.
As a practical matter, however, the Wilderness areas that are now overrun (Eagle Cap in eastern Oregon, for example) need not to exclude cyclists but to set up a permitting system for everyone so that there's a chance for solitude, at least on weekdays in March. Other Wilderness areas, like some in central Nevada and southern Colorado, are so replete with solitude that unless all the cyclists in Beijing descend on them on day we'll all have solitude aplenty, whether on a bike or on foot.
Regarding impact: I agree with others (Zebulon) that I can't see much difference between a mountain biker covering 18 miles in one day and backpackers covering 18 miles over two or three days. I'd say both the social and environmental impacts of the backpackers is going to be slightly greater, but that both are trivial and completely acceptable.
You're correct that the Wilderness Act, whose authors had a romanticized view of Wilderness as an untouched Eden (I think they forgot about the humans who had used it for millennia), evokes Edenic ideals with words like "primeval," "primitive," and "untrammeled." (See 16 U.S.C. § 1131.) For me, I have a hard time seeing the bicycle as excessively modernistic while the Gore-Tex, satellite phones, campsite chairs, iPods, etc. of backpackers are not. And bicycling isn't commercial, unlike these expensive Wilderness-visiting dude ranch operations I read about in the travel section of the local newspaper.
Has anyone noticed the ad in the back of Backpacker magazine for a wheeled device, the Dixon Rollerpack, for backpackers' use? If the federal agencies mean to be consistent, they'll have to ban those in Wilderness. (See http://www.dixonrollerpack.com; see also http://www.monowalker.com.) Do the mechanical-transport conservatives wish to ban those things too? Should Backpacker magazine not accept the Dixon Rollerpack ads without a disclaimer saying, "Not appropriate for Wilderness use"?
I think Zebulon is correct. We will someday see the mechanical transport ban restored to its 1966 Forest Service regulatory roots (36 C.F.R. § 293.6(a)), meaning that muscle-powered mechanical travel will be allowed with consistency and fairness: baby strollers, game carts, bicycles, unicycles, mountain boards and, of course, the Dixon Rollerpack and the Monowalker.
Unicycles are allowed already in Wilderness and I've seen up to 20 unicyclists out there on trails. Some of these guys and women do amazing things. Check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3iohXBQh8g.
Question: if you were in a Wilderness and encountered this unicycling gentleman, would it really ruin your day and spoil the whole trip? If so, I would respectfully suggest that it's the puritanism we all have inside of us asserting itself. If it were me, I'd try to suppress my critical impulse and not let the unicyclist get to me.
A hundred years ago Harriet Monroe wrote eloquently in favor of solitude and against mass recreation in what would later become designated Wilderness and national parks:
"Something will be lost, no doubt, when many pilgrims follow the mountain trails—when this wilderness, like Switzerland, is smoothed and carved for the foot of man and dotted with lodges for his comfort. It must be, and on the whole it is best; but the facile tourists of the future will be less happy than we adventurers, who found nature virgin and inviolate, and braved her beauty and terror in the mood and manner of the pioneers."
(H. Monroe, "Camping Above the Yosemite—A Summer Outing With the Sierra Club" (Putnam's Magazine 1909, reprinted in the June 1909 Sierra Club Bulletin (No. 7).)
This is magnificent writing and it explains some of the skepticism about bicycles and other indicia of modernity in Wilderness.
But there's a counterargument. I hiked from First to Schynige Platte in Switzerland in 1997. On this 20-kilometer classic Swiss alpine hike I found myself walking in the midst of literally many hundreds of hikers. The average hiker was in his/her 60s or 70s and they were equally men and women. Many had inadequate tennis shoes, while others were well outfitted. The hike passed not one but two lodges, one the elegant Faulhorn Berghotel, far from any road and serviced by helicopter as far as I know, the other a more modest but still comfortable backpackers' accommodation. (See http://www.berghotel-faulhorn.ch/index_eng.html.)
This is not an easy hike, but it was crowded for most of the distance. It was exactly what Harriet Monroe disapproved of in 1909. But look at the Swiss I saw on this hike! They were not overweight. They were intrepid. They were self-reliant. They were in the high-altitude outdoors.
Now contrast this with the majority of modern-day Americans. Not much outdoor sensibility, and a collective weight problem.
A friend of mine is a prominent new-media journalist. He lives both in New York and London and travels constantly. If he's not in Mozambique this week, he might be in Sri Lanka. He sent me this today about the U.K. and France: "I am in Paris at the moment, and the contrast between these two countries, separated only by a small stretch of water, when it comes to food is almost incomprehensible. Britain, for the most part, looks like a visit to Disneyworld on a average day. That is, a thin person stands out as distinctly different from the rest."
This, then, is part of the price for not following a different model of Wilderness use. We can't have everything. All decisions involve tradeoffs. Our choice is ultra-pristine Wilderness that now is larger than California, Massachusetts and New Jersey and that can be visited only by 19th-century means. Not even trail markers are allowed where the Forest Service staff is especially severe in its desire to keep things "primeval." As one consequence, we have tens of millions of people with no outdoor experience and no physical fitness. Switzerland has hotels in wilderness-quality areas that might cost $250 a night and, as I saw between First and Schynige Platte, trails that are packed to the gills. But a lot of healthy, trim people.
The point is not that we should adopt the Swiss model wholesale, but that there are different valid approaches to the use of wildlands.
You're correct. Feeling better now?
Zebulon-
Reason #592 mtn bikes spook stock, I dont own or use stock, but this is a reality and stock use is not changing.
how about that tribal wilderness created by native americans, look an awful lot like the wilderness act only stricter eh Ted.
This san jose, CA lawyer, anti wilderness mtn biking clown needs to give it a rest.
BTW stop inlcuding wilderness acreage in alaska in your stats ted it's quite misleading and dishonest.
It's Zebulon. Don't be lazy when you type.
Well, time will tell, but it looks like mountain bike access will most likely increase in national parks over the next few years. You might have to learn to share. I know, it's quite a crazy concept. Look how JR and Bigsky are struggling with it.
For that reason alone Zeb, it won't happen. Why do you think they are so strict about bikes in places like Yosemite? Because it has happened.....the kids will kill your cause.
Don't forget to copy and paste what I said on your own comment and refute it as nonsense.....
Stark Paraphrased:
“…In order to avoid displacing these great bears, the tribe closes about 12,000 acres to all public use from mid-July to October, The closed area is part of a larger trail less region that serves to discourage humans from entering the grizzly's home during a critical time…
…becuase i'm willing to put wildlife's needs over my own recreational pursuits unlike mtn bikers. Imagine the hissy fit the mtn bikers would throw if areas of national forest were closed for wildlife…
…Despite the permits, tribal managers downplay regulations in favor of EDUCATION…”
In areas throughout our wild public lands there are known locations where wildlife breed and give birth to their young at specific times every year. Temporary TRAIL closures are an effective and appropriate way to give sensitive wildlife a buffer from intrusion from man.
Too often the ecological education and awareness component of proposed closures are lost on the recreating public where it seems that specific user groups are targeted for banishment to reduce overall usage when maybe ALL users should be banned for that time frame. If, for instance, grizzlies are mating in a certain drainage at a certain time, make it more publicly known that this is not the time to use trail x because this is a critical time in the bears’ life cycle. People tend to be more supportive and understanding for the need of such closures when presented with facts and reasons to do so and not just told NO to access.
Too often this ecological need spins into a push by the conservation community to make such an area designated Wilderness to ‘protect’ the wild character of an area that would ban bicycles (and motorized if allowed in Travel / Forest Planning) while still allowing foot and horse traffic into an area at a time that it should be closed to all users. Once the sensitive time frame has passed open the trails back up to the allowed uses. Land managers do have more tools in the toolbox to use that can better balance preservation and recreation.
Besides a Wilderness designation, there are other proven ways that can protect the resources while still allowing for respectful, responsible and environmentally aware recreation. Through education, enforcement of current regulations and promoting the ability to share would solve many of the head-butting issues so vividly addressed in this thread…
This model refrenced above was developed by the Salish-Kootenai tribe not the "conservationcommunity" that the mtn bikers hate.
They adopted the wilerness act because it's STILL the best way to conserve wildlands while still retaining access for people, just not mtn bikes.
Other tribes are folowing suit with the tribal wilerness model that does NOT allow mtn bikes. The Hoopa nation with the largest reservation in CA is working to adopt a similar tribal wilderness as the Salish Kootenai on their lands in northwest CA.
Fokks like ted stroll, prgmatist can claim the crafters of wilderness act did'nt consider native americans as people or acknowledge their occupation of the land, but we all know they are full of bigoted nonsense.
The Native Americans of our land are embracing the wilderness act's model of preservation/access for their own lands and you mtn bikers are not inivited.
I suppose next the mtn bikers will attempt to protest the designation of tribal wilderness lands. Then the mtn bikers will claim we're not anti tribal wilderness, we just want to be allowed to ride on your tribal, sacred lands or we oppose all of it.
The public is begining to see through this ultimatum the mtn bikers use, if your not with us then we're against you & what a truly petty and selfish stance it is.
Why do you feel the need to exxagerate each and everyone of your arguments to make your point? Really, mtn bikers are a bunch of 20 year old out to get grandmas in their 70s hiking the backcountry? :)
Stats I've seen in local parks that allow for multi use trails don't support the myth of the MTBer out to mow down hikers. It's probably because such encounters are extremely rare. Furthermore, as we allow cyclists to go in the backcountry, where according to some on this board hikers never go, such encounters won't happen much.
Now, if we want to manage by anecdotal evidence there was an incident locally in which 2 horses bolted from the parking lot onto the trail and shoved 2 cyclists to the ground. Should we therefore ban horses from all local parks? Of course not. Accidents happen and life is not without risk.
Big Sky, I know what you mean about annoying downhillers (a tiny minority of mountain bikers), but how many wilderness areas have a road to the top that they can shuttle? If they're lawbreakers, aren't they already doing it now? If they're not, why would they start if they're told not to?
But pragmatist just days ago you were claiming wilderness advocates viewed native americans as less than human and you suggested they decide who gets to enter their land.
"self righteous wilderness purists who forget whos land this was in 1600."
you imply they would allow "humble, quiet mtn bikers and not pompous wilderness advocates"
That's quite a turnaround, dare I call you hypocritical.
Your also hypocritical for mentioning insults when you weal and deal them more freely than most anyone here.
You claimed it was all their landback in 1600's, so they should decide.
your post from (12-28-10) is the absolute definition of a rant/rave.
Lance, that stinks, period. There are jerks in every user group.
Example: Lewis & Clark State Park, near where I live. No Horses allowed on the trails, period. Trails built by hikers and bikers. Yet I see horse back riders there in spite of the signage. They trash the trails that we built and help maintain.
Yep, jerks. Yet I don't paint all horse back riders with that broad brush.
@T Stark,
If Tribal lands are closed to Mountain Bikes, I can totally respect that. This land is NOT public land, it belongs to the tribe and is private proprty, apples/oranges.
@Big Sky
These "Kids" will inherite the world we leave them Mr. Wilson.
What's your point? So, tribal wilderness won't allow bikes. We get it. That's their right. Now, that still does not solve the issue of why nobody can come up with a rational argument to exclude bikes from Wilderness, other than pointing to the "mechanized" paragraph that was reinterpreted by the Feds in 1984 in an arbitrary and selective manner.
Let's not forget the only important point: cyclists will keep fighting new wilderness until we get allowed in it. With republicans in power, this should be all too easy. Since we're the ones with nothing to lose, we don't have to compromise. :)
Wilderness B asks that we preserve existing MTB trails and give a bit more than lip service to future connectivity. It is exclusively focused on PENDING PROPOSALS and strives to bring harmony to the public lands preservation dialogue and unity to the Wilderness movement by aligning a passionate, vocal and low-impact user group.
Your position states that we should be banned from anything you deem Wilderness, despite the fact that most of what's in current proposals is sub-Wilderness grade (a fact that has been acknowledged by proposal advocates).
You get everything, we get what's left, and you get to decide who gets what - do I have that right? You call us selfish and petty. I'll be honest with you - I don't see it that way.
We're offering a solution. A middle ground. Is that really a compromise that you can't get on board with?
i'm responding to pragmatist's and ted stroll's bigoted claims about wilderness advocates and their view about native americans.
I'm merely exposing the hypocracy/lies they spew.
U know a of bikers would be ashamed of you, and we all know the one important thing to you zebulon.
Did I not already state I was ok with wilderness B for mtn bikers.
Yes on 12-29-10
I said "fine give the mtn bikers their wildernss B"
I'm not ok with opening up existing wilderness with no historical use.
The dishonesty, lack of memory/accountablility and outright poutiness on display by the mtn bikers is astonisihng.
The fact remains there are plenty of mtn bikers who are ok with some public land being off limits to their bikes.
Zebulon willing admits he breaks the law by riding in wilderness and encourages others to do the same, who knows what kind of laws the mtn bikers break if allowed into wilderness areas. Zebulon amits he does'nt like to walk, and refuses to acknowlede any points people raise about not wanting bikes in wilderness.
Wilfully ignorant to say the least.
How about you come up with some reasons why you can't walk in wilderness areas zebulon, and you pack being heavy does'nt count.
Fol
this horse is long dead, no sense to beat anymore
the bikers will get their wilderness b which is ok, but then they will demand to ride in all wilderness areas/national parks which is not.
I hope i'm wrong.
eh sStark out
The fact that I can walk in wilderness has nothing to do with whether I want to ride my bike there. I'm sorry that this simple point confuses you.
National parks: there is movement afoot to let bikes in. It'll take a while, but it's on going. Again, no reason why cyclists can not be in National Parks.
Your lack of logic (and you're not the only one) in articulating your thought process is astonishing. The slippery slope argument about cyclists riding in wilderness is laughable. People jay walk everyday but I don't think they move on to perpetrating felonies afterward. Well same thing with cyclists riding in wilderness, which is happening all the time. After they're done with their ride, they go back to their lives, big whooptido. Now, on the other hand, some wildernuts have implied that they'd like to hurt cyclists caught in wilderness. Now, that's scary.
Fact is that there is plenty of people (hikers and bikers) who would be fine with cyclists riding in the backcountry.
I've acknowledged your points and refuted each and everyone of them. Again, you don't want to share, we get it. It does not make you ignorant, it just makes you greedy. After 26 years of sole use of a public good, I understand why it might be hard to let it go.
Last summer in Anchorage, Alaska a teen girl on a mountain bike got nailed by a grizzly--at night, during a 24 hour mountain bike race, on a brush choked trail beside a stream filled with spawning salmon. DUH!!!! Instead of saying "that was really stupid," the mountain biker/bubblehea crowd convinced local politicians to hire a hit man to kill bears that "attak" dunderhead moutain bikers and trail runners. A younr girl trail running in anither race was mauled by a grizzly outside of Denali as well.
I remember a case last spring outside of Yellowstone where a mountain biker was either charged or mauled by a grizzly, and a trail runner ws stalked by a cougar that same spring.
Snowmobile=Motorized
Mountain Bike=non-motorized
Trail Runner=non-motorized
You worship in your chosen method, I will worship in mine.
Freedom of Religion, remember?
Big Sky, did you write something worthy of a response?
Guess not.
No mechanized vehicals in wilderness...that means no motorbikes, no snowmobiles, no peddle bikes....
Bikers (a.) destroy trails (b.) run down people or terriorise hikers and horses (c.) terriorise the wildlife (d.) double the impacts already caused by hikers and horses (e.) make new trails where ever it suits them (f.) although I would assume most bikers a decent people, the youth in the biker squad have shown to be reckless and insensitive to others.
Personally I could care less if a biker responds. If you can't walk, don"t come, the area does not need your impact anyway.....and I have seen 75 year old ladies walk into wilderness areas, I would not like to see them have to dodge a bunch of bikers on their hikes.....
a wolf hating wilderness lover, such a contradictory juxtaposition.
BTW I am 53 Mr. Wilson.
And................. you are a nut.
For all the world to see.
Keep posting your lunacy, it is quite entertaining.
Roland - how many hikers/campers/horseman (bubblebutts?) got eaten or assaulted by big predators in the past year? I know of two human fatalities from grizzlies in the Greater Jellystone area this past summer - no bicycles involved. You suggest to ban bikes to protect us from lions, tigers and bears - oh my? No thanks! Personal responsibility is the accepted price of admission to our wild lands.
Big Sky - 75 year old ladies can recklessly drive their cars deep into the Absaroka-Beartooth Wilderness using a motorized corridor (road) along the South Boulder River (and hundreds of miles of other motorized corridors in other Wilderness areas across the country). Why not corridors for quiet, low impact and non-motorized bicycles for trails we currently ride through areas being considered for Congressional protection in the future?
Wolf hater? Naaaa, just another wolf controller, I don't like seeing the neighbors cattle being destroyed so the californias can call my state "total wilderness". We need jobs to, and not just government jobs.....
From the Wolverine thread.
"By big sky, 12-29-10
Worst possible thing to do is put wolverines in Colorado. Just another tool for DOW to use to keep areas locked up from people (other than themselves).
A few more ecoterriorists need to be locked up in jail.....
Wolves in Colorado? Huge mistake......"
"A built-in issue in the context of restoration ecology is to what state will the particular ecological system be restored? Restoration ecology has implicit assumptions about what a "natural" ecological system is (Noss 1991), and has explicit propositions about the internal dynamics of that system (Cairns 1991; Callicott 1991), at least within the United States. A natural ecological system is by definition one that is free of major human interaction (Wilderness Act of 1964, cited by Noss 1991:86; see Noss 1991; Berger 1991). This is a consequence of how English is structured, which has artificial as an antonym for natural; all languages classify reality for their users. One can be wild and free, or one can be tame and restrained."
"Is the pre-Columbian ecological system that was present in the eastern United States at the time of European contact the ecological system that management and restoration policy should seek to recreate? If the answer is yes, then it must be realized that ecological stability was based entirely upon participation of and active interference from indigenous peoples pursuing life styles very much in opposition to the wildlife management policies currently thought appropriate. Further, if "wilderness" is defined as (1) the ecological world as it was on the eve of European settlement, and (2) lacking people and their associated impact, then "wilderness" can never be achieved. It never existed. Yet, despite that, the idea that the United States represented just such a wilderness still dominates policy formulation."
pp 141 - 143, Chapter 6, "The Role of Prehistoric Peoples in Shaping Ecosystems in the Eastern United States: Implications for Restoration Ecology and Wilderness Management" by Thomas W. Neumann
Maybe all so called "Wilderness" areas should be managed by native peoples (what is left of them) using strict stone-age methods, allowing no airplanes, raft trips, hikers, backpackers, commercial equestrian outfitters, jet boats, dynamite, chain saws or mountain bikes. There would be no nylon, Gore-Tex, Vibram soles, aluminum hiking poles or unicycles. This would be true "wilderness" as it existed on this continent before the European invasion. There would be hunting, primitive agriculture, burning of forests to encourage grass growth, and so on. This time, though, any invading white man would be met by a hail of arrows, spears and clubs.
I hope people will read the last paragraph. I think anyone could understand it. I also think the Church of Wilderness, the wilderness activism industry, and the profit-making outfitting/packstock/dude ranch sector would fear any such outcome. So, of course, it'll never happen.
I wouldn't like it either if it did happen, but at least there wouldn't be the existing peculiar types of discrimination anymore, which make no sense.
Just look at the damage the wolves have caused in Montana and Idaho. The destrution is so complete that moose may disappear competely from the yellowstone ecosystem (114 left in 2010 from 1200 in 1995) Why would you want that in other places?
I think the only looneys are the wolf hugging croud that cares little for people, their livihoods, and other wildlife.
Wolves in Colorado? Huge mistake
Sucks to be locked out, doesn't it?
Don't know where you get your moose figures and don't really care. 2 friends of mine drew moose tags this year and filled out with very nice bulls, no problem. In the Yellowstone Eco system.
I conjecture you are full of moose pucky and a troll.
I am done toying with you now, run along.
Not only were there very few wolves, there were very few elk in the pre-European era, in Yellowstone, at least. The book I'm reading goes into the natural balance of the human/wolf/ungulate/etc. ecosystem in the "good old days," with fluctuating populations and periods of feast and famine. Those that favor "reintroduction" of wolves have romantic notions about "wilderness" and fail to recognize that the key apex predator on this continent for the last 13,000 years was, and still is, the human being. To go back to a time when there were no humans, one would have to resurrect long extinct species of megafauna that roamed the continent, plus change the climate to an ice-age condition. Instead of favoring evolution, the human-free wilderness lovers hope to freeze the environment in a mythical romanticized state, invented in the 18th - 19th century by popular European-American writers.
will you just shut up about being locked out cuz you cant ride trikey in wilderness areas.
The VAST majority of public land is not wilderness quit crying.
continues the bigoted nonsesne posted by mtn bikers that becuase they're excluded in wilderness areas, all wilderness advocates think wilderness areas a utopian pre european eden with no human influence including native americans.
FYI mtn bikers acting like bigots will not get you your way.
"human free wilderness lovers" what are you talking about u dumb bigot?
It shows how little time these dumb bigotes use wilderness areas becuase most are filled with people of all ages, backgrounds and creeds. Most are actually quite crowded with scores of hikers and equestrians users. Too bad the bigoted mtn bikers refuse to walk or they could enjoy some of our awesome wilderness areas.
I mean really arne take your bigoted nonsense back to IMBA u dumb bigot you.
I could easily claim that mtn bikers view the wilderness as their little, scenc playground with no reagrd for beasts or man before them. They have no respect for wildlife or human safety and are a danger to our wildlands.
Look at how they treat the AK bush, an all night bike race in grizz/salmon country .....STUPID.
bikers gain access into all wilderness areas and propose an all night 24 hour bike race in the bob marshall wilderness.
If any grizz attack bikers well we'll kill em all to make it safe for bikers.
how are we supposed to enjoy our public lands with these man eating beatsts attacking US!!!!
The human free wilderness lovers think these beasts havea right to live in the wilderness...it's our wilderness the mtn bikers hoooo!
comparing your mtn bike aspirations to rosa parks
do you have no low?
no you don't
pathetic.
get a life pragmatist you troll
you make me sick you incessant whining, crying acting like your fighting for civil rights while your mtn bike crew spews bigoted nonsense and ahte for wilderness advocates.
This thread has shown how bad the mtn bikers really suck.
suddenly the stock users don't seem so bad minuse their campsite/trail impacts they are a much more worthy ally in wilderness use than these self vicitmizing, ultimatum shoving cry baby mtn bikers.
Text: "do you have no low"
Source language: semiliterate pidgin English:
Target language: standard American English:
Result: "You are currently in a high-pressure weather zone."
OK, got it. In fact that's true. It's pretty sunny here.
sorry for feeding you troll bigot...now run back down your hole.
I see cyclists making thoughtful arguments why bikes should be allowed in wilderness, but few anti cyclists do the same. Why is that? Could it be that cyclists arguments are just hard to refute on a rational basis?
Interesting.
Is that becuase they have no good reason or rational argument to be allowed on every square inch of wildland...interesting.
I love it anti wilderness mtn bikers continually post bigoted claims toward wilderness advocates and then omplain about name calling.
Hypocritical to say the least, willfully ignorant is perhaps the best description.
I used to be pro-wilderness b for bikes, i'm not even sure of that anymore.
One thing is clear the anti-wilderness mtn bikers hate the wilderness act and wilderness advocates and will resort to making bigoted claims about both the wilderness act and it's supporters.
"wilderness advocates don't "favor evolution" and live in a human free fanatsy world in reagrds to wilderness.
pragmatist from 12-29-1o, ted stroll, fenske etc.
keep in mind these are the leaders of the anti wilderness mtn bike movement.
I clearly remember the days before the popularization of the modern mountain bike. The conflict was hikers versus horses. There was serious consideration of banning equestrian use in designated Wilderness Areas. The mountain bike was the best thing to happen for the equestrian: "Look, hiker buddy, horses aren't so bad. It's those evil mountain bikers. They're the enemy."
It always boils down to an immature "us versus them" argument, doesn't it? Unfortunately I will also use this tactic, as it is the only thing that many members of the species homo stultus understand. It is part of the competitive nature of any animal, an evolutionary trait. The strongest survive. In modern society money equals strength, therefore, cyclists have to outspend equestrian and pedestrian interests in order to maintain trail access. Politics has always functioned with the proper application of cold, hard cash. All the arguments I read in these threads and similar babble are just noise by comparison. To over-use the old saying: "Money talks, B.S. walks."
That's factually incorrect. What cyclists do not like is the fact that a bureaucratic interpretation of the Act kicked us out of Wilderness in 84. If the Act was interpreted properly and we were allowed, we'd embrace the Act. But as it stands, we have no choice but to fight it. (sidenote: possessive pronoun is spelled "its").
Here is the thing that puzzles me. A rational human being would think: let's let the cyclists in to get more supporters behind the Act. That'll speed up land conversion to Wilderness status. Their impact on land is minimal, no biggie, and we'll get more Wilderness. Instead, wilderness supporters are telling us 1) to take a hike (pun intended) and 2) to support wilderness as it is because it's good for everyone. Then, you act surprised, shocked, horrified (pick one) because we don't go along. Get a clue!
We don't need bike races through our wilderness areas, although ol griz might enjoy munching a few of the free wheelers as they run rampant through the woods and disturb them. We would begin to find clumps of titanium metal and pieces of cute little helments in the bushes.....
Sorry fellas, but I live here and want no more land designated wilderness (in Montana). We have enough already and more is just taking away jobs from montanans......
But the mtn biker sgo on-line and trash both the crafters of the wilderness act, and the act itself. Mtn bike Zealots endlessly claim it's ot interperated correctly and that bikes are allowed. Similar to the birther movement with obama, no matter how many times you point out that the act clearly states "no mechanized, wheeled equipment" they continue to take the forest service to court and waste taxpayers money.
Your correct arne p ryason, it is all about money. The mtn bike industry/IMBA know they can increas their profits by gaining access to every single, square inch of public land. It's not about what's a compromise or fair, it's about the mtn biking industrey and the money the mtn bikers wild in court.
I've stated i'm ok with wilderness b, which is not exactly a compromise but is closer than what the likes of zebulon, ted stroll, pragmatist arne etc.
They proposed to open any/all wilderness/national parks to mtn bike use, despite it never occuring in the vast majority of these areas. Theyl will use the power of money, industry bacing and publications like outside to advance their goals.
The fact remains there are plenty of mtn bikers who are ok with wilderness and having some remote, wild public land off limits to them. Hikers don't hike in the atv roads, atver dont ridde hiknig trails, horsemen don't ride on certain hiking trails every single user groups has some part of public lands that are off limits to them. The anti-wilderness mtn bikers can't seem to grasp this reality and continue on with their biogted trashing of wilderness people.
They will keep pushing into all public lands, that is their stated goal.
zebulon-
the wilderness community has embraced and tried to reach compromises and shared goals with the mtn biking community.
Many are recpetive of "compromises" such as wilderness b designation for wild roadless lands. It's a shame extremists such as yourself will never settle for sharing or compromise. To you it's an endless war for your own perosanl access into every single square inch of public land. Instead you go on-line and brag about how ride illegally in wilderness areas, and encourage others to do so. The fact remains that many early wilderness areas had no historic bike use and predated mtn biking. This won't stop you from attemting to gain access to those areas. When resistance to your endless pleas for wilderness access are denided you claim that you could be a wilderness ally if you just get your way; which means riding your mtn bike in all wilderness areas/national parks.
bigsky- Your claims about the majority of MT's not wanting wilderness is false. There is a tremednous public desire for more wilderness in MT, we just don't want tester's mandated logging bill.
I'm going back to the snow woods to track more.
Please mtn bikers let's just protect our roadless areas first by deisgnating them wilderness b for bikes if that's the only way you'll get behind protecting our last bits of wild public land.
Don't try to ride in all the old wilderness areas and national parks with no hisoric bike use.
The fact remains that ceratin parts of our public lands are off limits to every user group inlcuding hikers, please accept this reality and let's protect all the unprotected wildlands with bike inlcuded.
arne your the best specimen of homo stultus i've ever encountered.
and BTW your trying to gain access, not maintain it; your trying to INCREASE mtn bike use in all wilderness areas/national parks despite many of them predating mtn bikes and have no historcial use of bicycles.
Continue to spend your money and hire your politicans to accomplish your goals of mtn bikes on every sinlge square inch of public land. Don't expect to gain allies in the wilderness community, and eventually people will be able to see past your "well I could be a wilderness advocate if I could bike there" and see your selfish, demeaning stance towards wilderness people.
Your ludicrous prejudism towards wilderness people is really delusional.
arne p ryason you are a bigot period.
(Also, I prefer backpacking in the non-Wilderness wilderness, because of fewer people and more wildlife. My first rare wolverine sighting was in the SNRA, while pushing my bicycle up a hill on a bike-legal trail, not in the human crowded designated Sawtooth Wildernessland to the west.)
These conversations always turn into the same boring argument. You know what they say about arguing on the internet, don't you?
you live in sun valley or stanley what a surprise ...not.
You live near the largest wilderness area in the lower 48, and the NRA. The vast majority of the USFS is not wilderness. If you live in the northern rockies it's comes wuth the territory. Go to CA or CO if you want more mtn biking and less wildness.
Sadly wilderness designation becuase it's so rare causes areas to become discovered and soetimes overused. If we deisgnated all of roadless lands as wilderness the use would be more spread out, there arne you have to support the preservation of roadless areas in some form.
Idaho does not have that much wilderness and it's almost all in the central part of the state where you live. CA has more wilderness acres that Idaho.
BTW arne I know of plenty extreemly wild areas near where you live that are in designated wilderness.
Perhaps if you hiked into these areas you would know that.
By DEAN RADFORD
Renton Reporter Editor
Apr 19 2010
An 83-year-old Renton woman out for a walk on the Cedar River Trail late Sunday afternoon died Monday morning of head injuries she suffered when hit by a bike rider, according to the Renton Police Department.
Velda K. Mapelli’s death was ruled an accident by the King County Medical Examiner’s Office.
She suffered fractures of her skull, clavicle, ribs and pelvis, according to the medical examiner, and had blunt force trauma to her head and torso.
Mapelli was taken to Harborview Medical Center in critical condition, where she was in the intensive-care unit. Her family reported to Renton Police that she died at about 11:30 a.m. Monday.
She was walking east on the popular trail along the Cedar River about a quarter-mile from Interstate 405 at about 4:50 p.m. when she was hit by a bike rider and fell to the ground. The accident happened near the Cedar River Dog Park.
The bike rider, a 57-year-old man, also fell to the ground and suffered minor injuries. He was treated at the scene by medic units. A second bike rider wasn’t injured.
According to police, as the bicycles began to pass her on the left, Mapelli stepped in front of them and was struck.
The police department’s Traffic Division is continuing its investigation, including
talking to witnesses.
“This is very, very sad,” said Renton Police Commander Paul Cline.
Cline said it’s not known how fast the two bike riders were traveling. The speed limit for bike riders on the trail is 15 mph. They are required to yield to walkers and pass on the left, according to the etiquette rules posted on a kiosk near the trail’s entrance.
“We don’t know if the rules of the trail were violated,” Cline said. If someone was reckless, then charges are possible, he said.
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/south_king/ren/news/91473374.html
OUT!
excuse, excuse
OUT!
Let the bkers stay in california or whereever. Keep them out of our wilderness and out of our forests.
That's funny. The FB page you're linking to was made by no other than MVD. The same guy who's going on trial later this month for attacking a cyclist. The guy is a dangerous loon.
you probably don't realize this but the Trail that the accident occured on is not a Mountain Biking trail and you are comparing apples to bowling balls.
The Cedar river trail is paved. We are discussing riding in the forest.
Thanks for the effort.
This thread is getting stale. Time to read more articles by actual Ph.Ds in environmental science instead of this loony troll bin. I include myself as one of loonies. Proud of it. I'd rather be wild and free than tame and restrained.
PS: Vandeman's trial has been postponed, again, to January 14th, 9AM, Wiley W. Manuel courthouse, Oakland, California at 9AM. I predict he jumps in front of a mountain biker and martyrs himself before the trial. (That's what I'd do if I were him.)
MV is telling the truth -- and mountain bikers are the ones "martyring" themselves as they like to throw themselves and their bikes off gnarly cliffs for a cheap thrillride. Maybe they don't feel they are alive without trying to hurt themselves. Perhaps this is because they are vampyres?
MV's trial schedule can be followed here: http://www.acgov.org/sheriff_app/docket/docketSearch.do
Enter Docket Number 562037, choose the Wiley W. Manuel Courthouse, enter the anti-bot letters/numbers below, then click the "Find Docket" button. The latest is the jury trial should have started today, 7 February 2011.
coverage of the entire thing here
http://peterfrickwright.com/trial/