Do ranchers have a right to predator free landscape?
By George Wuerthner, 11-22-10
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LIVESTOCK AND PREDATORS
One of the unquestioned and unspoken assumptions heard across the West is that ranchers have a right to a predator free environment. Even environmental groups like Defenders of Wildlife more or less legitimize this perspective by supporting unqualified compensation for livestock losses to bears and wolves. And many state agency wolf management plans specifically call for compensation to livestock producers—but without any requirements that livestock husbandry practices be in place to reduce or eliminate predation opportunity.
In a sense, ranchers have externalized one of their costs of business, namely practicing animal husbandry that eliminates or significantly reduces predator losses. Most of these proven techniques involve more time and expense than ranchers have traditionally had to pay, in part, because they have been successful in making the rest of us believe it was a public responsibility to eliminate predators and not a private business cost.
This is not unlike how power companies have successfully transferred one of their costs of doing business—namely reducing air pollution from burning coal—on to the public at large and the environment. Ranchers have been doing the same transfer of costs in the West for decades. And it is not limited just to predator control. When livestock trample riparian areas, destroy soil crusts, pollute waters, eat forage that would otherwise support native herbivores, spread disease that harms wildlife (as with bighorn sheep), and spread weeds, the environment, and ultimately the taxpayers and citizens of this country are absorbing the costs, while the ranchers gets the profits.
And so it is with predators. Killing predators to appease the livestock industry is nothing more than another subsidy to an industry that is already living off the public largess, in part, because most predator losses are completely avoidable with proper animal husbandry techniques.
For instance, prompt removal of dead animals from fields, and burial of the remains can significantly reduce attracting predators. One recent study in Oregon showed a very strong association between wolf packs and bone piles—places where ranchers dump dead cattle. Obviously one-way to avoid attracting wolves to ranches is to bury all dead animals. Predators are attracted to places where they have previously obtained food. One study found that farms that had a predation event were 55 times more likely to have second predation!
In Chile, where the killing of cougars is outlawed, many sheep producers utilize lambing sheds and nighttime corralling in pens to protect flocks.
In Europe where many countries ban the killing of predators like wolves, livestock producers have adopted other measures to reduce predator losses. The use of guard dogs with shepherds is particularly effective, again significantly reducing predation losses. One study found that the combined use of these techniques could reduce predation losses by better than 90%. When you are talking about only several hundred wolf attributed livestock losses a year in each of the states of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, a 90% reduction would bring these losses down to a negligible figure—and one that would remove nearly all demand for any predator control.
In Minnesota where there are nearly double the number of wolves that are found in the entire northern Rockies states of Idaho, Wyoming and Montana combined, farmers there are encouraged to adopt measures that reduce predator opportunity in order to qualify for state livestock compensation. After a depredation, a state official visits the farm, and discusses any measures that could be adopted to reduce future livestock losses. The farmer must sign an agreement to implement any changes in order to qualify for any future compensation payments.
These are only a few of the proven mechanisms that collectively could sharply reduce predator losses, indeed, perhaps to the point where wolves, cougars, and other predators are no longer a significant issue.
Of course, because the ranching community believes it has a right to kill predators, and in fact, believes that society should help them kill predators; there is not much incentive for changing policies.
Ironically one of the best ways to reduce predation losses may be to stop killing predators. There is a growing body of evidence that suggests killing wolves; cougars, coyotes, and bears actually increase social chaos leading to greater predation losses. The reasons include the fact that hunted predator populations tend to be skewed towards younger animals that are less skillful hunters, thus more likely to attack livestock. And in more stable predator populations, older mature animals, and larger stable packs can maintain territories that can keep young and unskilled animals away from livestock operations. Thus predator control often leads to more livestock depredation, and more calls for predator control.
There is good evidence to suggest that if states minimized predator control to surgical removal of proven chronic livestock killers, as well as mandated proper animal husbandry practices, nearly all of the conflicts over predator management could be avoided, including the unnecessary killing of predators.
But until the public and in particular environmental groups start challenging the assumption that ranchers deserve an environment free of predator losses, we can expect no changes in behavior and only the on-going and unnecessary killing of predators.
George Wuerthner is an ecologist and former Montana hunting guide.
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Comments
One of your best columns ever. We Americans have been fooled by ranchers who refuse to pay for the true costs of doing business--they've convinced the public to externalize the cost of predator control.
We know there are so many excellent ways to raise cattle and sheep without killing predators, but these approaches do involve ranchers changing their ranching practices. And most refuse to do this. Ranchers would rather have society pay those costs of predator control than cover those costs themselves.
I really like your research into how other countries handle the issues of ranching with predators. Of course our egotistical American ranchers will say that "we know how to do it better in America," and they'll just ignore the centuries of good ranching practices that have been developed elsewhere in the world. And that's sad.
Instead of demonizing wolves, we need to demonize ranchers who refuse to use the best ranching practices available to raise livestock in harmony with predators.
Keep up the great reporting, George--you always shine a clear light on this topic.
-Jon Cheever
Do Americans have a right to wild places with functioning natural ecosystems?
The biggest problem is the culture of death and a cheapness of life that seems to flood the psyche of many rural Americans.
Steps can be taken by ranchers to hopefully limit predation, but once a predator finds an easy source of food or sport, they will continue to prey upon that source unless eliminated. yes ranchers do have the right to protect their livileyhood and yes they should, and I am sure many do, take preventive measures as well to limit predation of wolves.
Ultimately, the best way to achieve a win-win situation is by managing the population of wolves, which will limit the amount of predation, create a balance amongst predator and prey as well as creating a balance between predator and predator.
it always seemed to me an absurd thing, but probably pretty predictable, that people would point to controlling the wild (and members thereof) as some sort of reasonable solution when conflict with a land-use arises.
it seems to me that anyone - or any group - with any amount of character/dignity at all would look first to alter what they actually and rightfully have control of, namely themselves and what they might be doing to foster conflict, first and foremost - before whining about the injustice of the natural world and holding out their hand in some indignant self-proclaimed entitlement to have the rest of us alter public spaces and wildlife to accommodate them ...
so long as the benefits of self-ascribed victimization (of the natural world) outweigh personal responsibility ~ then why not join the club i suppose, right ?
for my part, that's not the kind of person i want to be - nor would it be the character of any association i'd want to take any part in.
Well spoken.
To the point of social chaos within wolf packs. It is VERY true, and scientifically proven.
MTmuley, what don't you understand.
Do you study wolves, or are you a sympathetic ranch supporter who listens to 1800's mentality in wildlife management?
You need to do some research on actual wildlife behavior, and not at the neighborhood grill, sitting with some of these greedy ranchers over coffee.
Some of the more progressive ranchers have seen improvement using alternative methods rather than killing predators. Only to be shunned, or ridiculed by the other narrow minded fools.
Wolf packs primarily hunt the old/young, weak, sick, or injured.
Thereby keeping herds strong and relatively healthy.
When you fracture packs, the structure goes into chaos, and until that group of wolves either reunite in to a new pack, or find new partners and start anew, the remaining wolves have no true direction. If a Alpha, or older skilled hunting members are not there to guide them, they are unable to hunt properly, and resort to opportunistic kills, such as unattended livestock, sometimes found on public land as well as distant private land.
These ranchers who complain, often times don't see their livestock for days, weeks!
Just as the lie of Bison spreading disease, some politicos like to spread fear, to control the environment for themselves.
Corralling free ranging Bison or Mustangs for their profit, under the false information they spread is the norm out west.
No one seems to get it, or they would see these people are raping the landscape for profit!
Wolves have proven to enrich the land, more so than Humans have. They mostly hunt in a manner that ensures them prey in the future. Human hunters shoot the first animal that comes around the bend!
Responsible hunters , as myself, may not shoot at all if the timing isn't right, or a clear shot can't be made. I too, want to ensure that I can put meat on the table if I harvest responsibly.
I have seen numerous occasions out west where hunters aren't always taking kill shots. Sometimes they don't even follow a wounded animal to put them out of their misery with their sloppy shooting. It's a shame, and gives ethical hunting a bad reputation!
No one is against PROPER management, and we all support or farmers/ranchers, but they don't get a free ride as to wildlife management.
This should be a partnership of the Wildlife biologist community as well as local ranchers, with the goal being education, not eradication of the Earths most valuable asset. It's wildlife.
It is the MAIN cog in the wheel of the ecosystem.
Predators such as Wolves play a vital role.
Wake up people!
Your comment about Defenders of Wildlife will hopefully be a wake-up call to their membership.
“Even environmental groups like Defenders of Wildlife more or less legitimize this perspective by supporting unqualified compensation for livestock losses to bears and wolves.”
It’s obvious that their conciliatory and failed collaborative efforts with the livestock industry, including their failed compensation program has been a disaster and has resulted in the death of hundreds of wolves in the Northern Rockies.
The wolves which I suspect you are so upset over the very idea of being controlled in any way were imported, supposedly to establish a "balance" of ????. The agreement was to kill those imported wolves that killed privately owned livestock (destroyed human food), are you upset that anyone expected enviros to keep their word? Was that just a lie?
I am at a total loss to understand why anyone feels that they have the right to force others to sacrifice for their pleasure. Do you feel you are so special that any cost you demand others pay for your pleasure is to be made without a murmur?
Ranchers have gotten a free ride for a hundred years or more. The standard procedure of killing predators is a big fat subsidy to the West's welfare ranchers. It is no difference than allowing a factory to dump toxic chemicals in a river, essentially using our public waterways as private sewers. For the most part, we now have eliminated these practices, and factory owners have absorbed these costs and pass them on to consumers.
Those eating domestic meats should pay the real cost as well--which among other things should include raising livestock without killing predators. We know it's possible to greatly reduce livestock predator conflicts through animal husbandry. Just as we know how to produce chemicals we all use without poisoning rivers. It's time for ranchers to enter the 21st. Century. Killing predators to enrich your bottom line is no longer acceptable.
The wolves reintroduced are the same species. The Grey wolf and the like were once a original inhabitant of the area. Wiped out for numerous reasons, none sound.
The rumors you continue to spouse are not only false, but incorrect.
And your continued ignorance proves the article correct.
It's the 21st centurt Todd, welcome!
To bigsky...I have read a great deal of articles on the subject, and I don't believe the author to say anything about NOt having management.
Responsible management is what we all seek, and to dispell the childish nonsense of scare tactics and false information the wolf haters spread. It seems as though you side with them..?
So as Todd calls anyone who disagrees with him, a eviro, do you feel the same? Do you feel the wolves don't belong in THEIR natural habitat, or do you drink from the same kool aid todd does?
Their is a great deal of literature out there if you are open to it.
Way to go reality22, you prove to everyone how ignorance spreads.
You obviously were sleeping during school.
Circle of life proves that every animal has it's place, and the land benefits.
No one is saying not to manage, just do it properly. The wolves were here coexisting long before man messed with the diversity of the land.
I have 132 acres in northern Michigan. I hear some of the same uneducated responses there too, only they are debated in to a lather by the progressive farmers that are my neighbors.
again.., as far as I go, being a hunter, I want balance, not predator free environment so guide business can make a living without preserving the land they take from.
Thankfully most have learned the lessons from the past, and are open to a more conservational mindset.
Doing so ensures herbivores as well as other wildlife to thrive.
I'll sit back and read the wolf haters spread their propaganda, as they will prove my point for me.
You hit on a key idea. I am not opposed to "management". I'm suggesting that the ranchers manage their livestock properly and thereby eliminating much of the need for lethal predator control.
It is of course the food producers that I am concerned about, but go to Yellowstoen and see the devastation the wolves have caused there where there is not a single cow or rancher. The early managers of Yellowstone wiped out 56 adult wolves in jsut about the same amount of time the wolves have been introduced to Yellowstone, How many thousand elk have died since so many wolves were brought into the Park? Do you know, do you care?
Are you guys so full of yourselves that you really believe you have the right to use the wolves to destroy private property jsut becaus you happen not to like what they do, which is raising food for hungry people? Frankly I don't like what you do, but never would I try to destroy your property to get even.
I recently hunted Elk a while back. Had not one problem finding them, as it's called hunting.
Spent more than a week in the back country. No one is telling anyone what to do as to their business, except that what you do as a business can not impede the Natural wolf life of this country.
It's not yours or my land, it's our land. Deed means little.
I have to take care of the land I own, and it's inhabitants.
Ok, resume your nonsense Todd, just had to add that.
Happy Thanksgiving all, even the wolf haters!
My wish is that people like Todd just take a moment to understand the big picture, not just what do we personally get out of it.
Todd, please read the other responses and address them, I'm interested in your honest take on their comments, not ramblings about the big bad wolf dressed like little red riding hood.
How bout' them feral dogs out west Todd, they take more ranch animals than all the major predators.
Nite all
I have no trouble finding elk or moose in the Big Horns either, but the elk in Yellowstone are in big trouble. The irony of the whole thing is they brought the wolves in to keep the elk from browsing and limiting the aspen growth, now guess what, the wolves are putting so much pressure on the elk that they cannot graze, especially in winter and so they.....browse! (yes there is a study, do I have to post it) Brilliant, utterly brilliant! I have posted the numbers before, so if they are wrong, please post the updated numbers.
Now are you guys trying to tell us that you allow every insect, mouse, snake, etc that gets into your house live? It is your fault right? You never spray plants for aphids or anything else....under any circumstance? If you do any of these things, you are a hypocrit to feel you can pick and choose what pests you can live with but no one else can.
But since you brought it up, we do need to address the numerous factual errors in your email complaining about wolves in Yellowstone.
The benefits of having wolves in Yellowstone are significant, and all the ecosystem changes have been positive. Tomdispatch.com had a great summary a month ago:
"There was one beaver colony in the park at the time wolves were reintroduced. Today, 12 colonies are busy storing water, evening out seasonal water flows, recharging springs, and creating habitat. Willow stands are robust again and the songbirds that nest in them are recovering. Wolves have pushed out and killed the coyotes that feed on pronghorn antelope, so pronghorn numbers are also up. Riverbanks are lush and shady again. With less competition from elk for grass, the bison in the park are doing better, too.
Elk are the sole species that has been diminished — and that, after all, was the purpose of putting wolves back in the game in the first place. The elk population of Yellowstone is still larger than it was at its low point in the late 1960s, but there are fewer elk today than in recent decades.
Instead of camping out on stream banks and overeating, elk roam far more and in smaller numbers, browsing in brushy areas where there is more protective cover. Surviving elk are healthier, but leaner, warier, far more dispersed."
--
Aspen may not have recovered in Yellowstone as rapidly as predicted, but the recent studies attribute that to the fact that the Yellowstone elk herd numbers are still too high.
Getting the Yellowstone ecosystem back in balance takes time--another decade or so of wolves in Yellowstone should get the elk numbers down into proper balance, and aspens will then bounce back.
-Jon Cheever
President Roosevelt wrote in his memoirs about a conversation he had with the road builders near Tower about the elk migration to the south the previous fall. They described thousands of elk crossing the area and taking days to do so. He wrote this in 1903. This was before the NPS started killing wolves altho Chase credits 14 of the 56 adult wolf kills to the US Army.
Can you name a single report from those early days mentioning wolf sightings? The only one that I can find is Mr. Everts talking about hearing wolves howling the last night before he was rescued after his 30 day ordeal of being lost. On top of the fact he was in a state of starvation, he did not write his memoir of that incident until years later.
Sgt. Gustavus Doane who guided the Washburn expedition kept a great diary of the flora and fauna encountered on the expedition, even to the worms infecting certain of the trout in the Yellowstone River. No mention of wolves, but lots of mentions of lions, as did President Roosevelt mention them.
Good research. But regards wildlife accounts, timing is important. I haven't read Doane's account in a while, so I can't remember what he may have said about predators, but as I recall, he did not see a lot of elk either. The same could be said for many other expeditions.
However, most of these expeditions were in the summer months. In summer, elk are widely distributed in the high country (along with the wolves), and most of the travel was in the lower elevation terrain--the same terrain followed by roads in the park today.
Even when there were 19,000 elk in Yellowstone, I could spend weeks in Yellowstone and see few elk--during the summer months. Winter months were another thing-elk were abundant, but there are almost no early historical accounts from the winter months. Nearly all early historical accounts were by people who visited Yellowstone in the summer months.
I spent several months total time in the Yellowstone backcountry over the past few summers, and did not hear or see a single wolf while traveling in the backcountry. And I look around with binoculars all the time. The chances of encountering a wolf is relatively small.
It's much easier to see wolves and/or elk by driving the roads since you cover much more terrain in a short time. And all the wolves I've seen in the park in the summer months were spotted from the road, not while backpacking or hiking beyond the roads. I have seen wolves in winter while skiing, but like elk, wolves are concentrated in lower terrain in the winter, thus easier to see and/or encounter.
So one has to consider that many of these expeditions into Yellowstone often only spent a few weeks in Yellowstone, and only during the summer months. So the absence of wolf sightings is not an indication that they were not there.
Nevertheless, it's possible that wolves may have been very scarce. The reason--poison. Wolves are easy to kill with poison. They suffer far more from poison than either cougar and/or bears.
The "wolfers" had significantly reduced all wolf populations by the 1870s. The height of the wolfer period resulted in tends of thousands of wolves being killed. So wolf populations were very low everywhere even by the time the first major government expeditions were exploring Yellowstone in the 1870s-1880s.
Geo.
Here are some articles to support my stand:
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2009/11/10/mech/
http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/delisting-peer-review.htm
http://www.idahoforwildlife.com/Websitearticles/GeorgeDovel/TheOutdoorsmanNo.28May2008FWSBiologistSaysWolfNumbersUnderestimatedMechSays3,000WolvesExistinID,MT&WY;.pdf
I just read Mech's piece and generally agree with his assertions. One that hunting probably does not pose a threat to wolves in general.
And that habitat loss is the biggest threat for all wildlife.
Ok but that is not what I am arguing. I am suggesting that most wolf killing is unnecessary and furthermore, may well create more conflicts so that demand for continued killing never stops. That is a different argument from merely saying that killing wolves will drive them from the region.
I also believe there is strong evidence to suggest that other mechanisms like better animal husbandry will do far more to reduce conflicts with livestock producers than killing wolves. If you want a long term solution that makes it possible for livestock production to co-exist with wolves, than changes in animal husbandry are necessary--not more wolf killing.
Now, George seems to think that adding an animal that will consistently kill livestock is his right & George feels the ranchers do not have a right to a predator free environment .
George, If this is the attitude that the anti-hunting groups want to adapt I predict failure on their part. Just like the hunter that came into the land owner & was disrespectful did not get permission! Lately, all I see is these anti-hunting groups (in wolf huggers clothing) come in and push their weight around. And one wonders why the landowners and stewards (hunters) are at their wits end and ready to revolt!
The true wolf huggers want to preserve good habitat for wolves not wait money forcing them upon the rancher in poor habitat! The anti-hunter (in wolf huggers clothing) wants more wolves at any cost to eliminate game for the hunter….. we have all learned that wolves will decrease game to the point of no hunting!
The condos and cows argument is flawed for a number of reasons.
I've written quite a bit about it and you can see it at
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/cows_or_condos_a_false_choice_between_public_lands_ranching_and_sprawl/C564/L564/
But quickly here there are major responses.
First, because the geographical imprint of ranching vastly outnumers the footprint of subdivisions, even if ranching were more wildlife friendly than condos, the vast difference in acreage still makes ranching far worse for wildlife than subdivisions.
Keep in mind open space is not the same as good wildlife habitat. Rangelands grazed by livestock are severely compromised and degraded for many species, including for predators--which is why livestock production is the number factor listed for species endangerment in the West.
Second, demand drives subdivisions, not the availability of land. There is no rush to subdivide North Dakota even though most of ND is private land and very inexpensive. Demand is fueled by amendities like education and job opportunities, scenic landscapes, and recreational opportunities.
Third, other mechanisms like land use zoning are far more effective at reducing and/or guiding growth. Oregon, for instance, has state wide zoning and you don't hear the condos-vs cows argument raised there because it's a non-issue.
http://www.pneudart.com/
Encourage people who love to hunt pay for the privilege to preserve the West instead of engaging in xenocide.
You (or ranchers), want to run things your way only, not caring how it affects the land. You all make these nonsense claims and if you all could actually read and comprehend, you would see that men like me, and the others on here are not anti hunting or anti-farmer/rancher. We are for PROPER management of ALL wildlife.
We see the moronic comments from those of you who are so far out of touch, that your debates turn in to false information and scare tactics as to diminishing Elk herds.
Elk numbers have NOT hit below the lowest numbers recorded, and to not even mention the many Hunting guide business' that ALSO affect these numbers shows your prejudice.
You can't debate facts, so you spread lies.
Then to make the moronic equation to insects in your home goes to show just how "Out to lunch" some of you individuals are!
The mid-west farmers that don't share your views, which is many, seem to understand the balance ALL predators have on the ecosystem. They don't whine about a predator that is native to the land, the coexist.
You choose to call people names (Eviros) because they wish to be "Stewards" of the land, (using your words)..., is childish at best.
The land WE all own is our responsibility to look after.
To make comments that others are telling ranchers how to work the land is pretty narrow minded in the scope of things.
You can't just conduct business as usual, if it ends up having a adverse affect on Wildlife and the very land you work/live on.
As someone said earlier, it's equivalent to a business dumping toxic waste from their business in to a nearby river.
It's almost laughable to debate with someone who is so far out of touch.
but I always wonder how some of you who may claim to be God fearing people, can argue the points you make?
I would suggest you work a better story, since you are going to have to do some fast talking when you meet your maker!
Try explaining to God why YOU felt the need to slaughter(not referring to hunting for food only), the very animals God put on this Earth.
I hunt for meat on the table, and do so with respect of the land and Wildlife that inhabit it. For that, I give thanks.
I rub elbows with many hunters from across the world, and thankfully most don't have your views.
The ones that do, we all consider to be a nuisance to the land, just as you think of the wolf!
Get a grip!
Mike, Where in the world to get this crap that the Midwest is all honky dory on wolves....that is just not true. The resentment and distain for this high maintenance tax dollars sucking animal is growing! Have a nice day.
I, personally, agree with this assessment. Not only do ranchers and livestock owners pass along the costs of much of their business on to the general public, they claim public land as their own and use it and their private without concern for the risks of the real world.
In addition to all the examples found in George's article, you also find livestock owners who see no issue with allowing the birthing of young in areas known for wolf activity. Not disposing of bodies is a key reason for wolf problems. Burying is not enough if the rancher elects to use a shallow grave. Have you ever wondered where dogs get the instinct to bury and dig? Wolves are certainly familiar with the concept. A recent wolf incident which ended up causing harm to horses was caused because wolves came close digging up a corpse.
There are many things which can be done to minimize wolf/livestock issues. One research study is playing a wolf pack howl recording to make incoming wolf packs believe the livestock area is the property of an existing wolf population - this was being tested in Europe.
Another European plan is involves collaring sheep with a wolf deterrence device.
A group called Predator Friendly exists which works with ranchers in states such as Montana to set up many different deterrence methods.
Here's a great idea. Lets lay aside the rhetoric ("rattlesnakes into cities"??? kind of a stretch) and focus on the science and the facts.
For 2005
Five percent of all unexpected cattle deaths were attributed to predators. While thirty-seven percent of sheep deaths were attributed to predation.
That's just predators.
Wolves, which are usually the poster child used to invoke the most fear, account for... are you ready for this?
2.3% of all predation of cattle
7% of all predation of sheep
To put this in to perspective. For every 1,000 cattle killed, 1 was attributed to wolves. Dogs killed 5, Coyote killed 22 and for comparison, 5 were stolen by human thieves.
2005 NASS report
Imagine, just implementing some of the suggestions from George's article in terms of good husbandry would make the numbers unbelievably low and would impact the coyote and other predator numbers as well.
Becky Weed, Thirteen Mile Farm (located on one of the oldest homestead sites in Montana) and early adopter of the Predatory Friendly program
"We donate some of our proceeds to the Predator Conservation Alliance. They are trying to look for ways that the agricultural community and the conservation community can co-exist. I respect their efforts to try to look for creative solutions,"
The numbers I quoted put the predator problem in perspective (one you intentionally skew to your advantage by wanting us to use numbers from a ranch or two in a location of your choosing), George's article talks about solutions, Becky talks about solutions. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem... Better luck next time!
That is the type of attitude which will get things done and solutions found. No one wants to see ranchers suffer losses that can be avoided. The more ranchers like yourself willing to coexist, the more quickly programs can be implemented to give ranchers such as yourself tools to defer unnecessary risk and keep predators at a distance.
Just the introduction of llama into a sheep herd can create havoc for coyotes who seek to get a lazy and passive meal. Llamas, being the way they are, are not friendly to coyotes, and unlike sheep, will fight back aggressively, making the entire sheep herd a risky proposition for a coyote.
Read before you call someone out!
Get back to me when you have read ALL the comments. I know they are absent of pictures, but do your best.
Your arguments border on childish, with NO comprehension of animal behavior.
You and Todd continue to prove everyones point as to no common sense.
As to predation, it's called wildlife, Nature, and there are many animals who kill their prey. They don't ask them if they can eat them, they kill them in several manners.
I can't believe I have to explain that to you!
And to many of us hunters who ARE stewards of the land.
Poacher = target
You are the reason that DNR sets up sting operations to catch poachers.
'See you out there'
Ken, I agree whole heartedly.
You are the Ranchers that are pioneers in this age. You are the ones who deserve resources to make sure your losses can be somewhat resolved, and I personally would go the extra mile for farmers/ranchers like you.
No one wants to lose money, or see livestock taken. Hopefully with the help of both communities, Science and Ranchers, we all will learn from each other and coexist in the best country in the world.
@Howl,
Thank you for taking the time with the research and statistics.
Isn't it funny how some dismiss the stats when they don't favor their argument. (Reality22 & Toddler)
If you see from my earlier post, I support both farmers and conservation and hope that the special interest out west wise up.
The west is some beautiful country, and wolves are to be part of the landscape.
To the haters, yes, some people like you DO exist in the midwest. Not news worthy given they have the same drive you have. Greed, selfishness, and ignorance.
Your swill you spew gets around, and your downfall is logic, compassion for the land, and knowledge.
You will learn one day.
This is so typical of Montanan's lack of education outside their "little world". They don't have a clue that nature provides teeth and claws enabling wildlife to survive instead of a rifle or bow.
Ever witnessed the bloodbath when a pod of orcas attack seals? How about a great white attacking a baby gray whale, or a raptor killing a dove , grouse or duck? Then there are fire ants killing some unsuspecting animal that ventures near their nest. Not a pretty sight
You might want to "google" orcas, great white sharks, raptors etc or have your 3 year old explain predator/prey relationships and survival.
Geez!....There's a whole world out there beyond the boundaries of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming.
You people lead a sheltered life....no wonder your ideas are so narrow minded.
I do know all too well what a wolf does with its pray! Its anti-hunting idiots like you that think the pray wildlife would rather live with wolves than humans! & Old Mike above tried to ride the high horse "religion/sole" to which he got knocked down a few pegs. It's easy to banter with jokers like you when you have the wolf on your side & I have the other wildlife on mine! Thanks again for starting my day with a smile!
Wow, reality, first learn how to spell, then you can debate!
*LOL
Yea, you really showed me, I feel so knocked down...
How big is that rock you live under?
The religion comment was sort of a parable, a metaphor if you will, to try to goose your empty mind in to understanding the totality of your uneducated views on your surroundings.
I don't remember any smart retort, so I'm still waiting for your answer???
So, have you asked someone to help you read the previous post to help you comprehend that we are speaking of proper management. Or are you a a cretin like Fergie, and agree that poaching or gut shooting a animal is the right answer.
If so, that was my reason for the religious statement.
Thanks for representing WI. Forrest.., remember...,
Stupid is as stupid does'
You knuckleheads have been giving me a chuckle for the past few days! Thanks!
http://www.businessnorth.com/kuws.asp?RID=3673
Wolves just plain do not make the world around people any better. It has its place & that is remote area’s away from people! The money spent on this animal would be better served preserving good habitat not being used to force it upon people!
You say people are forcing the animal on society, on the contrary, the wolf was taken because of others forcing their will.
The land is not ours, we lease it in a sense.
Your weak argument can be turned on you with the rationale that humans have encroached on open land, and as they do, they need to understand wildlife and how to coexist.
Obviously you don't get it, and probably never will.
To preach injuring a animal and to call it a high maintenance killer continues to show your ignorance.
Children have a better grasp of this debate than you!
Open your mind in your old age, don't want to be bitter the rest of it do ya?
If you live in a rural environment, deal with it, just as those who live in a city environment learn to deal with their issues.
It always cracks me up when people by houses in rural areas, then complain because the wildlife eats their shrubs, or their UNATTENDED pet!
George originally spoke of coexistence.
That means tidy up your garbage, haze intruding predators so they aren't comfortable coming around, and use common sense.
Pretty easy stuff to do if you want to live near wilderness.
I almost spit my coffee out through my nose on that one!
*LOL
I have found that the best position to start from is the one supported by facts and the scientific method.
The foundation of HOWLColorado is to discover facts, do research, and assume no one is the enemy. Hunters and ranchers are not the enemy of conservationists and wolf advocates, oftentimes hunters and ranchers ARE conservationists and wolf advocates.
George wrote an article which wasn't even all that controversial. The problem with reimbursement-based programs is that it becomes a crutch which allows for the injured parties to not only ignore the problem in terms of avoiding solutions, it's sometimes financially beneficial to not solve the issue. You don't have to pay for the solution, and you get reimbursed for not implementing a solution.
I can comfortably and without concern, handle the angry people - who are easily identified. They tend to rely on tired and overused misrepresentations of truth, and repetitive rhetoric, as the foundation of their arguments. They then get personal, and attempt to dismiss opposing opinions through what is effectively "shouting" over the competition. If they can bring you down to the point of insulting them, they can then ignore the point at hand and focus on attacking you.
That's the playbook. Read it, learn it, know it, and account for it. Stick to the points, have supporting evidence and the 60% of people who are typically "independent" or "undecided" will listen to you. Remember, you are always dealing with the highly verbal and active minorities in this case.
I'm not new at this, I have studied and observed wolves for sometime and try to debate openly, but I'll admit that the constant nonsense and little support has me coming out swinging lately.
Thanks for pep talk.
Happy Thanksgiving!
And I'm pretty sure that most of you "George" supporters have never had to actually work for a living. As for the "greedy ranchers,"..........really????? You people have no idea. This country is already at the point where real farmers and ranchers are being forced out of business, for a whole variety of reasons. And I don't mean the trust-fund "ranchers" who buy a lifestyle for a couple of weeks in the summer and build "McMansions" from which to view the wildlife. Just be careful, if you really think you want the "greedy" ranchers off the land, you may just get your wish.
PS: Elk are in swift decline in Missouri too - but they have no wolves,I wonder who the Sarah Palin types will blame for that fact!!
Yes, it will work for wolves and cougars.
The sad thing above is that its only the Confirmed depredation…….. some experts say the non-confirmed could be as high as 1 cases in 6 can be confirmed! From what I’ve heard from a member of the conservation congress we have recent depredation case in Shawano Co. The wardens / biologist came out and confirmed one calf. The farmer says he has two missing & only found parts for one! The fence was down in three spots where the wolves had run them through the fence. One of the cows had lacerations from going thru the fence….. another heifer was mauled but not killed. The farmer is still fixing fence & has asked some of the neighbors for permission to look for the missing calf! Ohh the fun of having wolves!
Ranchers are the cause for their own problems.
Ray
Your comment reeks of ignorance and prejudice!... to make a general statement like "Ranchers are not making good management practices" is ridiculous! You and George seem to think that the ranchers all have to bend over backwards for “your” cause! You guys won’t be happy until you have every landowner hating your wolves! Great strategy!
Lisa Edelmann you have the most delusional, bigoted comments from all the wellfare ranchers.
Kudos to you!
I post my comments 10 minutes ago and here you are trolling and defending lisa edelmann's delsusional, bigoted comments.
and you have the gall to accuse Ray of posting comments reeking of ignorance and [prejudice?
your the absolute definition of a hypocrite and a cnofused bigoted rancher.
Actually i've lived and worked around ranchers most of my life.
I know what they're about and you've demonstrated that accuratley.
I know I have typos as well, but you obviuosly don't even know how to spell "predators" much less manage them.
all you do is call people nazis and anti-people if they think wolves have a place on the land.
Your an absolute child who resorts to name calling becuase you have no arguemnt.
As I said before, the more they spew the venom and spread false information, the better they prove conservations argument and drive any further support against them from the rest of the undecided public.
I hope you DO post this locally, I will when I get back from WY, to upper Michigan. You all need to be exposed for the backwards knuckleheads you really are!
Thanks for doing the leg work, you make the message easier for the more intelligent people who wish to have balance in wildlife.
Proper Wildlife management comes from education, not eradication.
I am as pro-wolf as they come, yet, I believe a Waterloo situation is beginning to develop in terms of anti-wolf sentiment, and wolf management. Do I want to see wolves killed-no. Must wolves be harvested/managed- absolutely, and this is for two reasons # 1 it is the right thing to do, and probably more important it would remove most of the fuel from the anti-wolf movement.
I have begun writing one group to which I belong and have expressed my feelings on the issue. No not DOW, yet I will continue to contribute to them. That being said, this is probably as close as I will come to agreeing with Reality 22 and the other monikers he uses on the "wolf controversy" sites.
It's not the rancher's fault that he is losing livestock to wolves. People are slow to adapt and change their ways. I do feel empathy for ranchers in general, and those practicing good habits in particular, now that Brother wolf is back. Before wolf reintro in the West, great pains were taken to assure Ranchers that wolf depredations would be few and far in between. With sheep in particular, depredations seem to have increased.
The easy way has been the path taken for close to a century in the West. With close to 22,000 Montanans about to lose their unemployment benefits, perhaps some of these Ranchers who have benefitted from tax cuts can hire a few of the out of work to patrol their herds. Isn't work what the tax cuts were supposed to generate? Gosh, but we know that we can't have a "socialist" means to take care of those out of work.
Hunting? I don't know if it is hunter hatred for native predators driving the truck on that one. Perhaps one of the arguments against hunting is the same one hunters throw at wolves, that it is not the 1800's anymore. There are people all over the place. In the Ely,Mn area, about the only safe time to venture into the woods or walk the backroads with your dog is at night. Here is a website from MN dated 11/18 that provides a few nuggets on what goes on in the world of hunting in MN.
http://outdoornews.com/cuffs_and_collars/article_73b1087c-f26e-11df-9fe8-001cc4c002e0.html.
For all you conscientious hunters, this is not to disparage you, but a call to police your own ranks. I'll do what I can to help wolf management.
Immer
If you had read my post, I never said hunters hated wildlife, but I was directing my comments to the points made by Ron. Please read before you jump to conclusions about what I write.
My posting also had nothing in content about elk and moose. I would be more than happy to debate on these topics with you, but please don't start ripping me for what I did not write.
As an aside, in terms of moose habitat, from what I know about moose, fire does not really "increase" moose habitat. Might help deer and perhaps elk, but probably hurts moose. If you would like, I would be glad to discuss this with you.
I said I had empathy for ranchers, and the plight they find themselves in. I said I was in favor of the management of the wolf population. Where did I say anything that would call for me being addressed by your first fourteen lines. As a matter of fact, I don't think I commented on anything that could be construed as anti-hunting or anti-ranching. And once again, and again, and again, I said I was in favor of management of the wolf population.
If you want to try and form a bridge with us pro-wolf folks, don't blindly attack. I can't control what you think, or interpret, but I think my post was pretty middle of the road, and extending a hand toward common ground on dealing with wolves.
My comment on hunters was only a rebuttal to the anti wolf argument that it's not the 1800's anymore and there are people all over the place. How many folks call in and complain about hunters, how much poaching goes on, and how many shot up animals are stumbling about in the woods. If you had read my post it said it was not meant to disparage hunters, yet you took it that way.
I don't care what % of hunters break the law. Folks on these blogs preach that people are "higher" in the pecking order than wolves. If people are more "responsible" than wolves then people should act that way. You want respect from all pro wolf folks, and those that do not hunt, police your own ranks. Bad apples with rifles are dangerous. That was my point with hunting. I am NOT anti hunting. To return your logic, what % of all the wolves prey upon livestock?
Oh, I also have a pretty good idea of the cost of farm equipment. These big ticket items are driving the small timers out of business.
Last, if you want to throw money away, go ahead and send it to Africa. I'll give my money to the organizations and charities in this country that I choose, Thank you.
Immer
Please don't bash people you know nothing about.
Some of the US's best trackers are from the bay state.
I do know that at one time in Wyoming not that many years ago, the combination of federal Wildlife Services f/k/a Animal Damage Control at USDA working with country predator control boards ( the state funded local equivalent of WS ) were spending north of $ 1,000 per coyote removed , on average ( total cost of coyote control divided by coyotes removed) , pre-Wolves. I'm guessing that in today's dollars that would be closer to $ 1500 or 1800. I'm extrapolating that the cost of Wildlife Services eradication of wolves in Wyoming , 45 last year, probably cost way north of $ 5000 per wolf, maybe even north of $ 10,000 . As of last week , 40 wolves have been removed by Wildlife Services in Wyoming this year. $ 400,000 is not an unreasonable cost figure when helicopters, manpower, and time are factored in .
Of course, WS is on call 24/7 for everything from skunks , crows, and bullsnakes all the way up to wolves ( but not grizzly...the Great Bear took more cattle than ever in Wyoming this past year to make up for shortages of their traditional wild food in the ecosystem ) It's hard to parse out the cost of controlling just one specie, wolves. Coyotes are somewhat easier to quantify .
I still feel a per unit cost of taking a wolf is above $ 5000 of taxpayer cost. An interesting interpretation of those figures is WS at the beck and call of the Stockgrowers are spending 10X-20X in real dollars ( tax dollars) to eradicate wolves than the value of cattle and sheep taken by those wolves. Livestock predation by wolves is actually decreasing in Wyoming even as wolf populations are growing slightly outside Yellowstone , but I don't think Wildlife Services' budget is going down .
How would we know ?
Anyone in agriculture raising any sort of crop, from beans to beef, knows that the actual yield at harvest time is less than what was planted in the Spring. Figure losing 7-10 eprcent of your corn crop to blight , figure losing some eprcent of your lamb crop to coyotes and eagles, figure losing some of your beef and calves to wolves and grizz ----if you insist on putting your animals in the bead of their sharp eyes. It's called " cost of doing business" and it applies to all sectors of the economy---commodity , wholesale, retail , resale , recycle.
It just seems to me that the livestock producer gets his cost of doing business / losses due to preedators paid for by the rest of us. I sure do wish some one or some government agency would cover my losses. There's no predator like a greedy capitalist with a dagger in hand, beady eyes on my throat or my back.
So I'll leave you with two thoughts on this topic:
1. Wildlife Services needs some transparency about what they are doing, how much it costs, and who they are doing it for.
2. A level playing field without taxpayer subsidy would very quickly determine which ranchers are savvy enough and secure enough to raise their cattle for realistic yields and absorb losses and still make some money . It can be done. Wolves are NOT putting livestock producers out of business all by the,selves. Sometimes the rancher's worst enemy is other ranchers and their wretched groupthink that has somehow morphed into public policy and government support. Ranchers may claim to hate the Gubbamint, but they are the most prevalent species of socialists I know...
Bottom Line' they are NOT entitled to a predator-free landscape , any more than I am entitled to being self-employed and having no competitors, predatory or otherwise.
do not forget that on top of all that you have pointed out, that not only will ranchers be compensated for losses by wolves by the state/feds, but all other losses will constitute tax write offs at the end of the year.
How would you feel if you were out walking in the woods with you're children, or grandchildren, and God forbid a cougar or wolf ran out and snatched said child and ran away with it. Would you not raise all kinds of hell with the Gov for not controlling the problem before hand.
What if you and you're spouse were out hiking in the wilderness and were attacked by a wolf pack? Would not your family sue the Gov for not having already eradicated the problems?
You know that a lot of people would.
I live in Washington state, where there are a lot of predators. Less than 3 months ago a hiker was gorred to death by a mountain goat. This is a true event, you can look it up. Should they kill all goats? No, of course not. Every event, though similar, has it's own circumstances and should be dealt with in it's own way.
I spend a lot of time in the wild places by myself taking photos, meditation, or just watching the animals. Now they are reintroducing wolves, which I feel is dumb. This limits how far a person could go alone, and now my wife is worrying even more.
Is there a point to all this? Probably not, but isn't every living thing (human & animal) entitled to a certain degree of safety?
Well, duh! Of course. Nobody is denying the livestock producer a modicum of safety . But to even ask that question says you haven't read the article or grasped the premise. One man's "safety" as in a total absence/control of predators that might possibly impact his stock and trade , is another man's essential biological necessity, if describing the endpoints of the curve. The best fit is in between those points...some risk must be accepted, some losses must e absorbed , in return for the opportunity and framework to earn a living.
Now , that's the broad stroke. I would say a livestock producer has a right to exclude predators from his own property by any ( legal ) means necessary . But no way should that same producer be telling the rest of us that coyotes and wolves , cougars and bears on public lands should be removed for his personal gain at a loss of intrinsic or even real value to the public.
Boil that down and you come to the argument: Should the public pay compensation for livestock lost to wolves if that cow was on a public grazing allotment in known predator country at the owner's wishes, knowing full well the risk went with the rewards ? Especially if he throws a herd out on the mountain in June and only as eyes on it once or twice during the summer and hires no herders or cowboys ?
It's been my regrettable experience that 140 years of the Stockgrowers/ Cattle Barons' empire building somehow became a policy that they WILL be paid for every calf that is born that did not die of a natural cause or accident , one way or another...either in the sale ring or the compensation payment from the state if that calf gets eaten by a wolf.
By demanding the public provide them with predator control towards his bottom line , the rancher is in effect asking us to guarantee his livelihood .
"Why is that ? " would be a better question to be asking, mellorik. It goes to the point herein economically , and I don't even bring up the ecologic case against skewed predator control, which is even more pragmatic.
If you want to go into the woods, go. There are wild animals out there. Half the enjoyment of being in the woods is observing these critters, otherwise it's just trees and rocks.
When I've been in grizzly bear country, I have felt on edge, and a bit less so for cougars. Black bear country, tie my food up properly and no problems. Wolves, I always hope to see them. I've been fortunate to observe wolves quite a few times but I wonder how many times they've seen me, and I've been totally unaware of their presence.
Odd, but I have no desire to swim in the ocean...
Farmers may not be ready to stoop to such drastic means, but be careful what you say. Butch Otter pulls Idaho out of the wolf management business, and then low and behold he fails to file for farm relief from the Feds in time.
I've dug up this one site from 2000, and am searching for others, but it hints farm subsidies exceed farm profits in the West.
http://missoulian.com/article_7237d790-c5ce-53d3-8fda-e89077e3c061.html
Veiled threats carry counter measures. I don't look at myself as an extremist, but if you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks
Some sheriff from Idaho? Who cares. It isn't surprising that some pig from Idaho hates wolves. You wolf haters are a small minority. The goal of wolf reintroduction was to put them back in places where they belong. There is no way in hell extremist nuts like you or your kind are going to stop that. We wildlife lovers RESPECT AND CARE ABOUT WILDLIFE.
150 years ago aspen was the predominant tree species on the Rocky Mountain Complex.
From the Missoulian: "Researcher Christina Eisenberg’s work shows that before wolves were killed out, about one in every six aspen trees grew to reach the canopy. When wolves were absent, perhaps one in 300 made it. Aspen ecosystems are considered some of the finest and richest songbird habitat on the continent, second only to river-bottom riparian zones. Remove the wolf, and you remove the songbirds. Remove the songbirds, and the bugs move in. Everything changes, top to bottom, right down to the dirt."
Spend the money to administer fertility vaccines and Depo with dart guns. States: sell permits and furnish the loads.
I've never said it was welfare to ranchers or farmers. My post's meaning if one is reckless in their comments, Fergie, the probability of an equal and opposite reaction may become more likely.
In a way, that's what the whole wolf issue amounts to. Extremes on either side, and the solution is in the middle. Things we all need to work toward.
Wolves are here to stay. Perhaps we should go backwards and "plant" them where they were last removed and allow them to move East. In evolutionary terms, that is most likely what occurred.
I have repeatedly stated that I am for management of wolf populations along with controlled and fair chase hunting seasons for the wolf. Those who recognize my name on these sites know that I am pro-wolf. I believe that would put me, in terms of those who love or hate wolves, smack dab in the middle.
It is easy to get drawn into name calling and generalizing on these sites, and I try to avoid that, yet I will defend what I do say. I really believe that if more of us get involved, avoid becoming reactionary, emphasize our concerns to the people best able to make the proper choices, not the extremes, consensus on this issue could be reached in the near future.
Immer
If wolves really were the threat Todd claims, surely there would have been "incidents" by now. Where are the people maimed or killed by wolves? Where are the casualties of reintroduction ? Who in fact has stared straight into the eye of a wolf in striking distance and thought his time had come? Whose child has been dragged off by wolves ?
There aren't any.
Nor have any ranchers been put out of business , that I am aware of. That's delusional thinking when wolves took only a measly 45 cattle out of Wyoming's herd count of 1.5 million cows. Nearly every cow taken would still be alive if the rancher/owner had bothered to cowboy them. Instead, ranchers all but invite wolves in to dinner then whine to the high heavens when they do just that . They deserve neither sympathy nor compensation if they do not make efforts to protect their allegedly aluable stock .
Commercial outfitters claims of being denied a livelihood because of competition from wolves need to be taken with a 25-lb. block of salt...outfitters always have excuses for not being able to deliver a trophy bull to each and every client. Outfitters are their own worst enemies, but they get a lot of help from the state Game & Fish departments who also have abrogated their own mission and bought into the Big Bad Wolf delusion , not because wolves alter hunting opportunity but because wolves rob them of money. Money is a p_ss poor criteria for managing a wildlife program. And the rest of the hunting public will just have to learn new and better ways to hunt in the presence of wolves. There is no shortage of elk . That's a myth. Todd will of course disagree, but is standing on thin ice there, blathering. I don;t think he hunts or raises cattle, so please step aside and let somebody who knows what he's talking about have the podium.
The only place where a rancher has a right to a predator-free landscape is his own private property , his own private pasture. Wyoming.Montana, and Idaho are all "Fence Out" states. If you do not want wolves in with your cattle, it's YOUR responsibility under the law to keep them out. Not the government or the taxpayer , your neighbor or me.
Case in point: if your car hits and kills a Black Angus cow that's outside its owner's fence on a dark night, the rancher will make you pay for that cow even though ti wasn't where it was supposed to be, and the law will back him up. But when a wild wolf takes an untended cow off a public allotment, the rancher demands we pay him for THAT , too. What is wrong with that picture ?
Fence Out---it's the law. Applies to wolves, grizzlies, everything. But only on your own spread.
Bottom Line: ranchers and hunters need to evolve and adapt. If they can't , they probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place.
Dewey, we do not know of anyone killed by wolves yet, although people do go missing so who knows? The echinococcus disease takes years to show up. That being said has anyone tested the big horn sheep dying of pneumonia despite no contact at all with domestic sheep, for the echinococcus?
Pasteurella haemalytica cannot be confused with either E. granulosus or E. multiocularis.
Your hyporicisy is showing and you don't like that.
Every dog from Poodle to Pyrenees, from Dachsund to Dane was once a wolf. And is still a wolf in part. They can interbreed
Domestic dogs killed dozens of people last year ; Wolves killed none.
Each belong somewhere.
Wolves belong in the West where the habitat not only can support them but needs them badly. Do Scottish Angus and English Herefords and Spanish sheep belong here ? Are they suitable ? Did we really need to displace 60,000,000 bison and kill off most of North America's big game in part to bring in alien exotic species from another continent ? Do ranchers get to decide this for all of us if they themselves cannot make a living without us helping them and providing them the ways and means to survive, only to have them dictate unrealistic terms with respect to native wildlife ? Dor anchers bite the hand that feed them ? They accuse us of that , but it works both ways if we are tangibly supporting ranchers but they in turn do not support our objectives as well. (Our objectives include equal rights for native predators on open landscapes).
Fair questions .
We need to keep some perspective here.
honey wagon Dickinson will not look at facts. show her any fact you want and within a week she will be repeating the same lies
Hey Big Sky---every darn cow in Wyoming and Montana could disappear into the belly of a UFO tomorrow and the market and supply chain would adjust in a month. Nobody would much miss them , except their owners. You grossly overemphasize the importance of the cattle industry here in the Greater Yellowstone. It's faux economics at its finest.
I have plenty at stake in the issue. Which is precisely why I am on my side of the issue. I realize what the true cost of public lands ranching is. The cost-benefit ratio of making precious public resources like grass and water available on the cheap to such a dysfunctional business model as modern ranching is not justifiable in this day and age.
It was a mistake to eliminate the wolf. But it's also a shame that free and fair markets are not allowed to determine which ranchers succeed and which are just a drain on the economy and resource, because the cattle business is far from being free and fair. It's Socialism in Stetsons.
I believe Georges article and these comments should be printed out and sent to all the ranchers in Western Montana, Northwestern Wyoming and Central Idaho.......We all know that SSS is not going to make a dent in the wolf population but poisoning will. People of the likes of Dewey, Skipa poo poo, Ron and larix just love to add fuel to the fire! If things do not change I believe people will start taking matters into their own hands! In other words they are going to start dumping the tea back into the sea.
Things are spiraling out of control here in Wisconsin. Our buck deer kill will be down again this year in wolf areas. The 9 nine day gun season just ended tonight & preliminary numbers were not good. The wolf pack near our cabin mid state has been up to no good, they killed a dog this summer & a farmers calf , The DNR says its one calf the farmers says two…… the cattle were run through a fence & some have laceration. After the farmers spent the day fixing fence he went to the neighbors to ask permission to look for his missing calf.
bigsky: what do you put in your coffee ? Cut back on the dosage.
I honestly try to see the damage wolves do , and inspect all the carnage they allegedly cause. I live in "Ground Zero" for the anti-wolf pro-hunter activist-rancher sentiment in northwest Wyoming, town of Cody . We have gobs of wolf packs west of us from the Montana line all the way to the Wind River and back into Yellowstone.
Where is all the damage these wolves are doing ? I'm sorry to have to report to you that "our" wolves seem to be behaving...hardly any cattle predation and elk hunting is still good for the hunter wiling to actually burn some calories and use his upper brain instead of the one in his tail. In fact, the wolves are doing what the Wyoming Game Fish cannot or will not do themselves: trimming the herds in a balanced manner. Elk populations have increased far faster percentagewise than wolves, and the wolves of Wyoming are taking far fewer cattle and sheep these days.
I am an environmentalist ( small 'e' --I don't belong to any groups) but I support managed hunts of wolves , and it's time we started hunting ( some) grizzlies, too. Both species need to be managed as wildlife, and that of course includes hunting in the toolbox alongside the other available management tools, including nonlethal.
Moose were declining in GYE before wolves were reintroduced. It's the habitat , stupid! If you or anyone else is leaving your children indoors at night from fear of wolves, I feel sorry for you. We call that ' The Little Red Riding Hood Syndrome '. How sad.
http://cbs4denver.com/wireapnewswy/Program.seeks.to.2.2025776.html
bs, where is this damage you speak of? In WY, few livestock are killed by wolves and still you have 100,000 plus elk in Wyoming. This "destruction" is all in your head because you don't like the idea of wolves being back and killing elk and deer for survival.
bigsky's mom and dad must have read him a few too many stories of little red riding hood.
That's great news about Toby's sight being shut down. I heard he has a new one up. We'll get that one shut down as well. I know it will anger Toby very greatly.
Tony
Tony
Let me put it in English ... if there are both Cattle and Elk on PUBLIC land competing for the finite amount of grass, I favor giving it to the Elk first and foremost .
I did not frame that around wolves. You did, Mr. Blinders-on-the Stetson. I'm talking forage.
*
You may think Toby Bridges will get his website back , but the webhost doesn't need any excuse to disable it . None whatsoever. Refund his money and don't let the cyber door hit you in the digital derriere on your way out. It's an At Will arrangement.
I sure do hope somebody tells the rest of us just why and how Toby got excommunicated. I'm sure it must be a good tale. I presume he abused his privileges or made some threats. The usual .
P.S. I boycott most Wyoming and Montana beef ---if it's even available at all , which it generally isn't ----because the ranchers hereabouts are too hardnosed about wolves , among other things.
Nobody owes ranchers a living or special dispensation. If only the playing field were level....
To Reality, Bigsky, and the rest of the nut job losers....,
You are fading out, and to POS like Fergie, your days are numbered.
Toby is a pansy boy who talks tough from behind the computer.
I am out west quite often, never once did any toothless hickle billy ever attempt to start trouble over this issue when I was around.
I give respect to those who earn it, and most out west with the views of wildlife management these goofs have, I have no respect for.
I took the liberty to forward their post to numerous agencies across the country, to expose the backward thinking that dwells in the mindless there. The reactions were interesting...
The anti wolf people were now distancing themselves from these nut jobs, and some even opened their eyes to alternatives given the REAL statistics. The others will never change, but because they are now in line with the nut job wolf haters on this web, they are outnumbered! So they tuck tail and run!
I'm going to enjoy Jackson hole, and while I'm polishing my backside on the saddle stools at the "Cowboy Bar", anyone feel like a beer, come join me!
I'm hoping for some fake cowboy tough guy locals to talk smack..., It's always fun to see the look on their face when this short former city boy tells them to pound sand, and they realize.., "They ain't so tough " after all!
Priceless.....
Bigsky, Toddler, Toby the douche, and the rest of the our gang comedy crew.., check out the documentary.., "Lords of nature".
If you're family tree actually forks, and your brain has a bit of spark left.., maybe reality will sink in as to OUR ecosystem.
Hey, it's got pictures so you rubes should be able to understand.
You scare no one with your BS, and you WILL be out soon enough. The whole world IS watching!
Hope to see you soon!
Especially you Fergie...
Take this sight for what it is worth. You can dig more if you choose. The thing is, if Big Horn sheep get the pnemonia, they die rather quickly - a few days. Ungulates with E. granulosus cysts, which can build up over a life time, don't die this quickly. I believe Isle Royale moose have been close to 20, all the while being loaded with E. granulosus cysts.
This is not to say E. granulosus is not a concern to people, but folks have been going to Isle Royale for decades, and no reported cyst transmission. If I remember correctly, the indigenous people of Alaska have the highest rate of cyst "pickup" largely because their dog teams are fed raw ungulate "stuff", and then the people pick it up from their own dog's feces. Big dog teams will equate to a large concentration of feces in a small area, coupled with improper hygiene...
http://wolves.wordpress.com/2010/09/29/new-study-comfirms-that-bighorn-sheep-die-from-domestic-sheep-diseases/
Immer
The hilarious but sharp anecdote was of the gated community in southern Utah , mainly retirees behind brick walls in their faux adobe condos. Several instances of tapeworms came to light, and backtracking they found that three infected domestic sheep carcasses had been illegally disposed in the nearby landfill, and the worm cysts were brought into the old folks' inner sanctum by their own pet dogs, once removed, that had obliged themselves of rotting sheep meat .
Any public health worker who has been on various Indian Reservations in the West , especially the Southwest , where sheep and goats are kept nearby will tell you that E. granulosus is a health issue , and dog---> human transmission is not difficult.
Doesn't explain the human-wolf scat relationship in Montana-Wyoming very well though , does it ? Until you consider the source of the rhetoric, that is....
Correct. Not to say people can't get Hydatid cysts, nor discount the potential danger form them, but you would all but have to pick up some wolf scat in your bare hands, pick through it with your fingers, and then chew your nails.
I met a seasonal ranger on Isle Royale who did that the first time she observed wolf scat... all but the chewing the nails part of it.
All wildlife.
Deal ?
You entirely miss the point, as usual!
I don't look for trouble, but I certainly don't back away!
The scenario usually starts with, "you from out of town?"
Then before someone can say "yes, we're in town to see friends..", they start in with the nonsense you all spread.
If these ranchers want to have it better, then do what is necessary to make it happen, learn to coexist with predators, and help us all pass better legislation to help you.
Not preach 1800's philosophy about eradication of a species so YOU can make a living, no matter how it affects the world around us moron!
Believe me, I never have a problem with disgruntled ranchers, or their kin little man, nor do I preach my feelings without being confronted first. I have always supported farmers/ranchers.
That's the point toothless, you all try to force your ways, but aren't intelligent enough to be open minded or debate without confrontation. I have had sit-downs with many ranchers who intelligently express their feelings, and are open to newer ideas, and see the value ALL predators bring to the environment, and understand that THEY are operating in THEIR territory.
It's called common sense boy!
What do you have to say to those ranchers that don't agree with you?
What do you have to say to those ranchers who implement alternative measures to deal with predators, especially wolves, and have been successful?
You probably shun them like the rest of the unintelligent folk like yourself, as the intelligent ranchers go forward!
Your first line in your comment tells it all littlesky...
People ARE in the equation!
People are the ones destroying the land.
People are trying to enlighten other PEOPLE to use their head, and learn to understand how their actions are harming the ecosystem, and to help them along with change.
You are laughable at best, since you think you can preach nonsense to the masses, and expect them to believe your venom!
I'm not trying to talk tough, I'm simply stating the confrontations' nit wits like you start, then when you get handed your teeth in a bag, you cry foul!
Well, you mess with the bull, you'll get the horns!
I see that this article is posted on the “International wolf center – headlines page” so don’t be surprised if you get the likes of Skip a poo, Mikey, Dewey and Old Immer!
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/headlines.asp
Also, these characters said old Toby bridges was shut down…… http://www.lobowatch.org/ Looks like it’s working to me!
Read my past post, all of them, then you can attempt to debate me.
@Reality22.., really, we're on the ropes!?
You two must be from the same family tree that doesn't fork!
The ranchers that you side with don't want you!
The others who simply want PROPER management and respect the land don't want you!
You both and your nut bag peanut gallery are spinning your wheels, and are slowly but surely going to be pushed out.
My comment about confrontations comes from the likes of you starting trouble, not me.
Yes, I grew up in the big city, and did well enough to move out to the country where I spent many years hunting for food on the table, not for "cowboy up" thrill kill.
I'm extremely lucky that I get to enjoy, and learn from both environments. Hunting has been apart of my life growing up, and I was taught to respect the land and it's inhabitants.
Being friends with many farmers/ranchers has taught me a valuable lesson.
Hard work, and the knowledge that some of these farmers don't always play by the rules. Look at one week in to hunting season in Minnesota, and that will show you the backwards mentality of the rural area.
I also learned that those from these areas that have a brain, and compassion enough to not inhumanely kill anything if they could help it, are shouted down and intimidated by the rest of the nutjobs like you.
So my experience with this, along with the venom from your kind on here,shows that ya'l needed to be sorted out.
I'm for balance, and if that meant when being shouted at, and threatened by scumbags like you.., I acted.
I don't feel bad about it, and anyone I dealt with had it coming.
That's as plain and simple as I can put it!
Sorry I have no pictures to aid you, since you apparently can't read/comprehend what someone says to you.
I posted this blog with many agencies to expose the misinformation, Hatred for anything opposite of your demented views, and outright lies you spread.
I'm not a tough guy as in a bully, but I'm someone who WILL NOT put up with bullsh*t from morons like you, and can do something about it. I've seen and dealt with harder people than you'll ever know SKY, and just making it clear you and yours'- tough talk scares no one! Take it for what it's worth!
Thanks though, for doing the leg work for exposing the special interest greed and cancerous behavior some of you wish to continue.
As I said.., the whole World IS watching!
Montana losing one head of domestic livestock a day , and we are supposed to get up in arms over THAT ? When Montana has 2 million cows and hundreds of thousands of sheep , you rail and wail about 365 of them in a whole year ? When 75,000 of them are lost in the same year to all other causes , you wail about a few dozen taken by wolves , usually because their owners were nowhere to be found ?
Somebody is looking thru the wrong end of the spotting scope . When HE should be the one in front of the mirror , actually. There is just no reasoning with the ossified agrarian of bigsky's ilk who wants us all to live in the 1880's like some kind of Groundhog Day
Ken : thank you for the very refreshing and pragmatic comment from a modern rancher who shows tolerance and pragmatism have a place in the business of livestock in wolf country . I'd love to buy a boxed quarter beef from you or refer some folks to you.
I almost spit my coffee out my nose again.., you to mutts are would be funnier than hell if you weren't so dense!
I wish I could provide you with a tutor to help in your reading comprehension.
I grew up in the big city.., you know, where one can not only get a education, but actually learn from diversity of all kinds.
We travelled to the country quite often, and hunted across the country. It's called reading..., you may find you like it, and actually retain some of the knowledge passed on to you here.
I see on this thread, that my children know more about OUR ecosystem and being a "steward" of the land than you could dream, and the fact that you continue to babble on about nonsense is doing wonders for your opposition on this subject.
Your threats of sss goes to prove the hickle-billies in you, and further set you apart from those who once may have been for a more harsher stand on wolves.
Thanks for helping the cause, and for exposing your moron level of intelligence.
The only smokescreen is between your ears!
Hey, by the way, so far, your post have become great fodder at the bar!
Seems there are more that think you lunkheads aren't familiar with ranching, unless you drove by one once!
* hearing the "Three Stooges" theme song every time I read your post
You know drinkin coffee & booze is not good for ya..... How will you enjoy the utopia you enviromental guys are creating Yellowstone if the liver goes? Take care!
Boy, I thought for sure the women out there were much smarter than the men??? Southwestern woman are beautiful, don't ruin it! ; )
It's called nature connie, and if you read back to the beginning, most of us ARE for proper management, not eradication.
Reality.., you got me.., yes, coffee is big for me. I'm impressed, you were able to read/comprehend that sentence.*LOL
But you missed the point that I don't push any agenda, I merely answer to anybody who ask.
Now, the fact that I showed these post to some of the locals, and while many of them said they weren't happy about the wolves being reintroduced.., they did say that people like you give folk that live in predator country a bad name! Sorry, but one old timer said, he would not think twice to look at a poacher through his scope. Don't know if I'd take it that far...hmm
Do you see that the talk of gut shooting and poaching any animal is not only wrong, but sick minded?
That's their words too!
Connie, please don't align yourself with that community. In nature, animals don't ask nicely if they may eat one another. If you ever watched a cat kill a mouse, or feral dogs kill a calf, it's not pretty, but it's what animals do.
We as humans are SUPPOSED to be more intelligent and humane than that.
I once gave a lift to a fellow hunter who tracked his wounded deer almost 3 miles before he could catch up to him to put him out of his misery. He felt horrible, but says he has seen many hunters just let the animal suffer, and wait for the next buck. He gave me a couple of excellent filets for my help as well. Score!
See, that's what true sportsman do. He was a farmer as well, and says his 4 great Pyrenees dogs have chased off a small pack numerous times. These dogs were bred for this, and they usually go after the Alpha, which in turn, forces the subordinates to back off when they see the big fellas' coming. Pyrenees can tip the scale at 150-200lbs., and live with the herd.
They have no want to eat a wolf, just kill it. Since they are brought up with the herd, and that's their pack.
Good luck connie.., hope you at least keep a open mind, unlike mutt & jeff!
Reality, I'm startin' to think you are sweet on me. If so, please tell me you are a woman, or I'm going to have to gargle..*LOL
Ok, sky and reality, time for me to let you ramble on more.
I'll make sure I put my coffee down before I read your next diatribe.
http://timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=6885
It's called Natural Law. The law of consequences.
You gonna blame it on enviros now ?
So you don't think that the wolf huggers flocking to that part of yellowstone to get a glimps of a wolf ripping an elk apart while it is still alive has no comparisons to the guys who go to the Michael Vick dog fight to watch the fight!?
Teh wolves lived in a true wilderness where they killed each other to manage their own numbers, and they were brought into kill off the elk and they kill each other. Since they were brought into ranch country those that survived turf battles in Yellowstone are going out and killing livestock. Wolves take an inordinate amount of animals because they kill as long as there is anything to kill.
Hunting is the ultimate in providing for ones family, an instinct that is a part of man's very nature.
Then go watch those steaks, chops, and burgers get grilled on open flame. This is w-a-a-a-a or a slasher movie . This is REAL !
It's important that young kids know where their food really comes from ...the how and why of the modern food factory process. You can do it with lambs and chickens, too, or those nice young calves that are raised in cribs for Veal and never see the light of day after entering " they system ".
This kind of hands on reality education would do wonders for preserving ranching and hunting, wouldn't it ? You bet. As soon as those kids leave the packing plant they'll be planning a career in ranching or ask dad to take them hunting next fall . Teach your children well. Beef---it's what's for dinner !
Point being: I do not want to ever hear anyone in these comment forums try to lay out all those gory " wolves eviscerate elk " tales , without them also talking about our own live carcass-to-table analogy. Or somehow make cattle ranching in Wyoming Montana and Idaho out to be more than it really is. Or that elk hunters don't leave lovely gut piles and gallons of blood on the ground. Or that packs of domestic dogs don't plunder and leave wanton kills.
Being a carnivore is not a pretty sight, and that very much includes humans and their own style of food sourcing. Don't bring up the unpleasant killing habits of wolves if you aren't willing to stand in front of a mirror and examine your own CANINE teeth ...those two fang-like teeth their on either side of your own front teeth .
( And while I'm, at it , Reality 22 lives in a distortion field, and Todd is one dimensional...as narrow minded as they come.)
I enjoy reading your fiction, any other works?
You haven't the first clue about predation, or predators in general.
Yes, Wolves, like other predators, cull their numbers every year. NATURE.
You left out some real important issues concerning Elk numbers for instance. YOU leave out the upteen ' guid businesses that bring in the many unskilled hunters to bag anything.., and that comes at a huge cost. By the thousands!
The live stock you speak of is largely unattended most times, in avast area, mainly right smack dab in the heart of predator country. Many times on public land that ranchers brokered a deal to use, yet expect to be sterile. It is, nor will it ever be again, just that.
Todd, the spreading of fear of the big bad wolf is over.
YES, they need to be managed.
Yes, EDUCATION, something you anti's (wolf) don't want to except, nor comprehend, needs to be nationally excepted.
Funny that you have switched your gears from plummeting Elk numbers nonsense, to how they take a animal.
Really Todd, I could hit any anti site, and hear the same exact nonsense, without any real stats, (that aren't made up), or common sense.
Lazy hunters who now can't shine, or use their vehicle to hunt will have to actually get their fatbodies' out in the field, and actually.....hunt!
I speak for myself that PROPER management of wildlife is essential, but not by morons like you all that continue to cry.., wolf!
I thought mid-westerners were made of more than that Todd!
@ Beth, excellent point as well!
Dewey, my father did that to us boys, and to see animals still alive, flipping around on the floor just sickened me, or the guys flipping baby chicks by the handful in to the grinder..etc
After serving this country, I never take "thrills" in taking a life, but knowing that the meat we as a family put on our table is only what we need, and fresh of the land, allows true sportsman a chance to be a cog in the wheel of the ecosystem. Heck, we have had week trips where we didn't shoot our weapons at all. No choice buck to be found at the time. Then go out again, and have meat for the winter. It was about taking the "right" one, not anyone!
Great post Dewey.
And Honey wagon dickinson leading the charge. so tell me honey wagon what Carnivore or omnivore species does not eat another species while it is still alive?
I have never accepted the "Disneyfied" version of wolves. As a little kid the only exposure I had to wolves was the typical Three Little Pigs and the Big Bad Wolf, and of course, Little Red Riding Hood. At the age of three, I was hardly a nazi, as prowolf folks are called by some on these posts. I just thought wolves were neat.
As I grew older, I realized there were many who did not hold the same opinion of wolves as I did. As the reintroduction and recolonization has brought the wolf into so much dialog, amateur and professional and everything in between, I become befuddled how one animal can stir up so much animosity. Yeah, there are people who think wolves are warm and cuddly, as there are for almost all living predators. And, yes, there is the antithesis of this in the wolf haters like:.. No need for me to put the names here, because I'm sure you know who the real wolf haters are.
That being said, visit this site, if you haven't already: http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/two_wolves_shot_in_northwest_montana_reward_offered/C41/L41/
and read Bruce from 11-21-10
Eco Nazi supports the wolves and gets into the Michael Vick wannabe mantra. Talk about a rant, which leads me into, Reality, aka nowolves, is that you again, or is that your brother?
One last thing.
Big Sky. Isle Royale has had wolves and moose coexisting for about fifty years. Their population trends usually run inversely to each other. The only time the moose population really sank, was during the mid to late 90's when the wolf population was suppressed for almost a decade due to parvo. The moose population rose rapidly to ~ 2500 moose. They literally ate themselves out of house and home and for two years the population just crashed. This was not due to wolves, but starvation. The question therein is why are there still moose on Isle Royale if they have been preyed upon by wolves for fifty years?
Immer
My drive comes from the destruction of the Northern Yellowstone Elk herd (witness first hand), the stagnant status of the Clam Lake Elk herd & the appearance of wolves in Shawano & Outagamie Co in Wisconsin! My drive comes from the fact that the wolf is currently being managed by the CEO’s of Defenders of wildlife & HSUS. Groups with rich environmental lawyers that could care less about wildlife and only care about keeping their cash cow the wolf in the courts to the toon of 5.2billion dollars in the last two decades!
I have spent the last 12 years in and out of the back country. I have studied wolves, as well as Bear there. I have hunted in each surrounding state there, observed plenty of game, even with the reintroduction.
I am not anti hunting.., if you could read, you would of seen that from my very early post til' the present. You are so full of it, and I've read your other post under different id's.., you fool no one.
You haven't a clue, and it has proven itself time and time again.
You spread false information on every blog you hit!
Talk to a biologist like Dr. Mech, who IS pro hunting as I, and then tell me your opinion.
I have talked to him.
Bulls*t walks, and that's what you need to do!
You pull bogus rumors in to the mix, as if they are real stats.
Talk to the man who has studied them.
Dr. Mech is pretty open, and will tell it like it is.
By calling someone a wolf hugger, proves your ignorance on not only the facts, but your credibility in this debate.
Immer, always enjoy your post, and your information.
Thank you for you that.
Have a great Holiday all, I'm done wasting breathe on tools like Todd, Reality, Sky, and the like.
There's no reasoning with fools. They can have the last word, since it continues to prove everyone's point here.
No mutants making decisions about Wildlife management.
Leave it to responsible ranchers and the scientific community to come together and share the knowledge.
I'll continue to enjoy the great outdoors, and God won't help any gut shooting poacher I ever come across.
Safe hunting to the ethical hunters out there.
* Just to clarify..,There was another Mike who came in after me.., hopefully he'll pick up the torch again.
I'm willing to extend an olive branch, of sorts. We have sparred back and forth on other sites, some give and some take and some rancor. I've decided to attempt to rise above the fray of name calling and generalizing, try and back up what I say with as much fact as I possibly can and strike the correct chord with those on the opposite side of the fence.
Tit for tat won't help with wolves. The extreme pro wolf faction riles the extreme anti wolf folks, and the diatribe from the anti-wolf folks only puts doubt in the mind of the general public that states with wolves will manage wolf populations with any degree of fairness. As rational as SSS may seem to some, with further digressions into gut shooting and poison, it will only serve to further put off anti hunters.
I've evolved, I don't need a trophy mount on my wall, nor do I want to be photgraphed with something I've killed. If I fish or hunt, I do so only for the food. That's all the wolves do.
The problem with emails are you have no idea of tone of voice, gentle satire with perhaps a smile, and one should expect the same in return. Perhaps one of our early contacts there was mention of talk over a few beers. It' as close to you and I will get to calling the shots on wolf management, so we might as well be civil about it.
When the name calling starts, what should one do?
You, I, nor anyone else on these comment sites will have much of any effect on wolf management as we banter back and forth. All we do is drive up our own blood pressure. I have begun writing to the organizations to which I belong to be proactive with the movement for proper wolf management. Wolves are magnificent animals, as are the elk and deer upon which they prey. I don't want them killed, but their continued existence will depend on it.
I've said enough.
I plan to kill everyone that I see. For many reasons.
One being to get ready for when the progressives get guns I will be a better shot!
Two it is my duty before some rural kid gets attacked on the way home from school.
Liberals are the poison/cancer on this planet. They have made a mess of everything they touch. Especially their own families.
So-----Are we supposed to take your Comment seriously ; pity you and suggest counseling; or just ignore you as yet another emotional anti-wolf dunce who brings nothing to the discussion but misplaced anger ?
Yes wolves do kill kids, google it, and of course the two recent deaths of adults.
why do you wait by your computer for people to comment?
why do you lie about wolves attacking children?
why do you continually lie about wolves after being prooved wrong?
Why do you continually post conspricay theories about wolf intoduction?
why do you hate so much?
when will you do us all a favor and stop posting your nonsense?
I remind you yet again that wolf reintroduction was not gestated for political reasons , but to correct the huge mistake of eliminating them in the first place. Wolf eradication from 1880 to 1930 was more " political " than restoring them in the 1990's ever will be. You seem to confuse the issue that wolves have BECOME political , but were not instigated politically. Trying to manage wolves or any other species on political terms is not the way to go about it and quite contrary to ESA.
Wolves are not cash cows for environmentalists. That is just more of your delusions, which I have spent way too much of my precious writing time reminding you and all that your one-dimensional rabid rhetoric that" Enviros are the root of all evil" just doesn't pan out. It's delusional.
Libs think they are not political, they are smarter than the ancient ways that have been handed down, they reject the God of their fathers and turn to foreign gods like the bible tells us about their kind. They swap out the truth for a lie, their men lay with men and woman with women and due shamefull things that are inconvenient. they do not spank kids they may not have aborted, so they continue their corruption on society. They do so much more, they are in every bodys business. It will end in a climax of desctruction like the world has never seen and then the meek will inherit the earth. They even believe that our ancestors came from the swamp just the way theirs did.
This is the closest they will get to paradise, no wonder they are so upset!
Wolves are NOT exploding in population . In Yellowstone, where they have an abundant prey base, they are actually falling in numbers as they " sort things out" between the packs and their numbers adjust for a variety of reasons, including various natural diseases.
Outside of YNP in Wyomng, wolf numbers are climbing by maybe 4 percent a year. Tha's hardly an explosion , especially when you cnsider they a re dispersing over a wider area, which means the denisty of wloves is falling, not rising in some areas. cannot speak to what's happening on the ground in Montana but I have my doubts about your unsubstantiated assertions on that point. A single wolf heard howling twice is not the same as two wolves, for instance.
The Deer not dear) population is not being decimated by wolves anywhere that I am aware of in the Rockies. That's what wolves eat in the Great Lakes, but they have a long ways to go before they reduce the Whitetail population in Michigan Wisconsin and Minnesota to objectives, Wolves are doing their part alongside the hunters.
And you attempt once again to perpetuate or enlarge the long disproven notion tha the wolves brought ehre from Canada are somehow nearly twice the size and weight of whatever was considered a " native" wolf hereabouts. That is totally the result of propaganda. Wolf researchers in Yellowstone and tose who actively manage wolves in Wy-MT-ID routinely weigh all wolves and record those figures, dead or alive. They seldom go above 100 lbs. Females are more often in the 75-85 pound range. Some wolves do in fact reach 140 lbs. in Yellowstone, the Mollie pack that was the only pack in central YNP tha routinely fed on Bison. It takes a pack of outsized wolves to want to do battle with a 2000 lb. Bison. The average northern Rocky Grey Wolf is at or under 100 bs, so don't try to peddle that stuff here, unless you want to confirm your ignorance.
Please try to re-tune your observations and perceptions to accomodate reality.
Your last paragraph is so far out on the fringe and tending to the religious zealot modality that it isn't even worth a dignified response. If I want to hear any rabid prosletyzing sermons today on any topic, I have cable TV channels for that ... the ones wiht the scrolling 800 number a the bottom of the screen , VISA-MasterCharge accepted. But I do not tune in , and neither do most of the informed enlightened commenters herein.
Do try to get more enlightened before you discharge more projectile commenatry
Your experience is the kind of Dan Rather, and CBS or the rags from the LIBS. The truth always wins in the end. But then you libs can right it off as propoganda.
Do you also HATE liberals ? Hate is a strong word, but seems to apply here. If so, why ? And where exactly do "libs" fall in the panoply of wolf management ? Please be specific.
...maybe I'll respond when you learn to spell, and congeal.
you have never seen,shot ,or have knowledge of a 190 lb wolf. that is a flat out lie and you know it.
did you know God hates liars?
The snow is packed with tracks and the grill is shiny.
There are bones and hair of deer kill locations every 1/2 mile in any direction. I grew up in these woods, and have never seen this kind of environmental change happen so fast. Maybe I am just in the middle of the packs, but i am hearing my complaint echo from many other corners of the great northwest as well.
My friends and I have reported it to the federal biologists, and they are saying the same kind of crap that Dewey and Mickey are.
The game wardens from the State of Montana are less indoctrinated with the approved montra.
The long time stable, non migrating Norris Firehole herd is down to 50 from 600-650 historical population. No elk at Norris meadows, none in Elk park, none in Gibbon meadows. There is little left for the wolves to eat, that is why the numbers are dropping. The researchers are hoping that the wolves will finally begin to really prey on buffalo when the elk are gone or so I was told by a ranger this fall!
Yeah right, I call hogwash on this!
This is not the environment of yesteryear, they were killed off for reasons. They are dangerous durring the cold winters when game becomes scarce. I predict that we will here some tragic reports withing the next 5 years of human killings, and everyone reading this blog will remember my prediction. Andy, Can you tell me why liberals all have a problem with their fathers?
Just wanted to explain now, pertaining to MentalMatts moronic bullsh*t fest...
This is why I had mentioned religion before. Read Matts first post about wolf recipes..
He calls out to the founding fathers God...Yes Reality, the coffee came shooting out! *LOL
Would this be the same God who put these animals on this Earth?
Wonder what "our" God would think about poisoning his animals, gut shooting them, or like our founding fathers.., eradicated them from THEIR natural habitat????
Yes, Matt, the Earth is a spiritual place since it was gifted to us by God. (IMO) I guess you aren't a believer.
Would this be the same founding fathers who raped and murdered millions of Native Americans, and made treaties that they later broke? Made trinkets out their body parts?
You must of slept through school Matt!
I'm not Anti American, especially since I fought for this country, but I DO understand my history, good, bad, and indifferent.
I believe in this country, as do others, that's why I'm willing to continue fighting for it.
Matt, you're just another 'Tard who doesn't know his history, and hasn't a clue as to the subject at hand.
Elk numbers are not at a low, they just learned to adapt to the land and the predators.
We have been seeing many of them throughout my stay in WY.
Your just another nit wit with a computer who likes to cry wolf!
Thanks for the material...,you continue to prove to the rest of the educated population just how unintelligent some of you mopes are!
Headed back to Northern Michigan to enjoy some Venison.
Plenty of it in WI, MI as well. So much so, that collisions with vehicles are up. Take away the natural predators, and that's exactly what you get!
@ Andy.., if you read back some of my post, you'll see that I am a Hunter for food, not trophy. Never posed with a kill.
Just want you to know while we fight on the same side, remember that there are some ethical hunters out there that DO NOT agree at all with these anti American, anti Wildlife, and uneducated wolf haters.
Weight of these wolves is largely due to prey it hunts.
That was one of Matt's many lies, as he back peddled after he was called on it.
weak matt, very weak!
Your history of our founders is more of the perversion that shows who the mope is. I would like to recommend the book of history on this country called " The Five Thousand Year Leap".
I can backup every word I have typed. Unlike you blue state over caffeinated Pelosi types.
How did you get along in the military. Must have been before don't ask don't tell.
Center For Constitutional Studies, 1981
ISBN 0880800046 " and maybe we can all start to move back to a united states. I am not expecting it.
Soon the Hybrid Canadian wolf truth will be out, and it may even make it to the CBS (Constant Bull S#$@) network.
The wolves introduced are from Cananda. These wolves have joined with wolves from the yellowstone basin, and other packs in the rocky mountain corridore. That makes them Hybrid.
Having worked in huntng camps and run the front gate of a huge private ranch in Wyoming tha allowed hunting , where I had to personally deal with 300-400 hinters per season and check their game , I can vouch ...99 percent hunters exaggerate , when given cause.
The guy who claims he was big and strong but couldn't quite get a wolf off the ground , then immediately presuming it " musta weighed at least 190 pounds" has obviously never tried to pick up a passed out drunk girlfriend who weighed 113 lbs. sopping wet fully clothed. Said girlfriend had a 120 lb. German Shephard named Gizmo that got shot by a disturbed Vietnam vet ranch caretaker who had flashbacks and was just plain mean on his best day . I am 6-2" and quite strong ( bench 315 ) and I could not pick up Gizmo's carcass that day. Dead weight is much heavier than live weight , for all practical purposes.
Matt is exaggerating , and he knows it. I'll stop short of calling him a liar here, but not quit thinking about it.
*
By the way , with respect to this foofawraw surrounding 200 pound wolves, can anyone report back on the status of that 200 pound doofus Toby Bridges , who also made that disproven claim about monster big wolves ? Toby had his LoboWatch website brought down by the web host last week because he, too, was just plain mean and a liar and exaggerator and libeler/slanderer...it's a long list....once too often. I'm asking if anyone knows what's up with that other western Montana wolf baiter and liar...excuse me, exaggerator...old Toby ? Matt can't quite step up to fill Toby's mukluks.
The wolves you lie about, and I'll say that! He lies about, are ROCKIE MT. Wolves. The ROCKIES extend in to Canada. Same species!
They traverse back and forth, it's called migration.
Some were Bison hunters, thereby bigger, and some were Elk hunters, still big, but not as.
I'm neither liberal, nor Conservative as a label. I'm for the best person to get the job done. Might be conservative on some issues, and more liberal on others. Your neighbors must keep an eye on you.., One could only imagine what they think of you.
What have YOU done to serve this country, other than disrespect the land that keeps you?
Forget it, I wouldn't believe any response coming from you given your track record.
Regarding him taking legal action against his former web host, he has no case. I'm sure he gave them plenty of reasons to snuff out his fire, but they can do it for no reason at all , just because they can." We reserve the right to refuse service..." etc, when Toby reserves the right to serve refuse.
MATT--- our greater Yellowstone wolves are not hybrids nor are they any different genetically than other Grey Wolves. You have to go clear to eastern Canada ( timber wolf) or south to near Mexico ( Mexican grey wolf) or to southeast US ( red wolf) to find a genetic subspecie of wolf that even remotely becomes " different". Never mind that wolves interbreed successfully with domestic dogs and coyotes ( but not fox) since they are all the same genus and very near in specie.
Your biologic ignorance would be appalling, if I cared.
And just to remind all what topic we have digressed from here... Ranchers have NO right to a predator free landscape , beyond their own private fenceline, anyway.
Todd, you are so full of it!!!
245lbs.., maybe a yearling!
I guess the ones I've observed fall under the same example as a side view mirror that states, " objects appear closer than they appear" You are a goof!
400-500 lbs. +, easy!
Get of your Wii virtual hunting game, and wake up Toddler'
Guys like you were called "Hayseeds" when they talked Bulls*t like that. Where I grew up, hearing guns shots was a regular occurrence. Can't stop laughing at that one!
I'd like to see Dewey write a book since he has been spot on. I agree with your view of most hunters as well Dewey.
It would be very interesting to hear what you have experienced during your time working at hunting camps.
You should seriously think about it.
Imagine what you could expose, and that would greatly benefit the ethical hunter out there that sees this when they're out there.
Unsafe hunters are way too many!
<chuck_schwartz@usgs.gov
Now that your sorry a** got called out, you change it to sows.
How about you call your friend, and have him post whatever info he has. I have worked with many biologist, and walked the back country numerous times. Seen many Bear of all sizes.
Grizzlies sows are not averaging #245. Have any ever been the weight, sure, but hardly average.
Since you play with stats, and misrepresent yourself, your credibility is shot!
*LMFAO !!!!!
You are such a bullsh*t artist!
Cheesehead got curds for brains!
Marion Dickinson.........of course.
Hiding behind curtains again?
What a cretin, and further exposes the Bullsh* t and lies you spread!
I'm having a great time on this one!
PWNED
There were seven ( or more) accepted " classifications" of canis lupus grey wolves indigenous to the Rocky Mountain cordillera all the way from the Arctic to Mexico...occidentalis, irremotus, columbiansis, arctos , albus , rufous.....MacKenzie, Victoria, Yukon...I forget the exact names. They are NOT subspecies. They are populations.
The distinctions were pretty minor. More non-specie adaptations to their specific environment, much like you consider a " breed" of dog for their specific traits. They're still all dogs and interbreeed.
They are all Grey Wolves. Genus specie . Same same. The ones chosen for Yellowstone were plucked from packs that were good at preying on elk. That is their distinction.
They are not a special classification of wolves, nor are they even a subspecie. Grey Wolves are Grey Wolves.
This argument has long been put to rest. Skipadodo is incorrect a every bend.
Get over it.
challenges.., you couldn't challenge me at anything pal!
Now, I get pissed when people spread lies, talk about gut shooting, etc... You started calling people "Eviros" or "Libs".., you wouldn't say it to my face, so leave it out of the discussion, and I'll tone myself down as well.
I didn't originally come on here to get in arguments with people, but you all talk smack, then cry about it.
I can care less how many names you use, talk facts that are real, and we can debate.
You want to civilized and talk, I'm willing to start over with you.
Your claims aren't for me to look up, there for you to bring forth.
You say you emailed this person, so copy & paste your correspondence and we'll talk.
You can block out your return email address, I can care less.
Remember Todd, I'm not the warm and fuzzy wolf hugger you and the others are referring to. I don't think anyone on here was.
Everyone I have read, agrees that PROPER MANAGEMENT is what we push for.
Remember also, the topic on here was about a predator free environment for ranchers. Since ranchers normally own thousands of acres, and utilize public lands, having a predator free environment will be difficult.
Inhumane treatment of any animal would be wrong, wouldn't you agree? So that's the debate.
LMAO @ this clown. If you could think for yourslef you would know that the govt. you claim you hate loves bigots like you. They love th hard core partisan right winger who thinks the "libs" are ruining the world. They also love the hardcore "lib" who beleives the opposite. In reality while the two wing nuts are pissig and maoning @ eachother the banksters and real rulers are laughing all the way to BANK. It's called a two party system becuase that's what gives them control, the illusion of choice. They love seeing the partisan hatred from the likes of bigots like MontanaMATT.
LMAO @ his claims that the only people with god are ranchers and military service men and the rest are "anti-christians"
This guy is real a nutjob supreme!
So MontanaMATT has the US Military ever done to "destroy the world?"
I respect all US servicemen, but I don't respect the decisions made by the higher ups in the army. Hillarious how this guy claims he knows history as well.
MontanaMATT just another dumb bigot who falls right into the plan of the global elite. A frothing hater of liberals, who does'nt even know his true enemy..what a dunce.
Hey montanaMATT Try reading "A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn, and no it's not liberla bias.
BTW MATT you don't represent the views or attitudes of most Americans your just a right wing, ex military nutjob freak.
I looked uo the book you reccomended on US History called "A five Thousand Year Leap"
"The Five Thousand Year Leap: Twenty-Eight Great Ideas That Are Changing the World is a book that was published in 1981 by the late anti-communist and conservative author Cleon Skousen. The book asserts that the United States is a Christian nation whose Founding Fathers were guided by the Bible, and that the U.S. Constitution is a brilliant document."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Thousand_Year_Leap
this is where you claim is the real history of the US...WOW
Do yuo even know what the definition of "biased" is MATT?
LMAO @ this biased trash book posing as history, and you claim public schools are biased...wow we're not lost MATT YOU ARE BUB.
2. The founding fathers were not guided by the Bible and specifically designed the constitution to be unaffiliated with religion.
3. The US Constitution is a brilliant document so i'll give ole Skousen that one.
The Faith of our Founding Fathers
By Dean Worbis
No one disputes the faith of our Founding Fathers. To speak of unalienable
Rights being endowed by a Creator certainly shows a sensitivity to our
spiritual selves. What is suprising is when fundamentalist Christians think
the Founding Father's faith had anything to do with the Bible. Without
exception, the faith of our Funding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was
best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke
of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God."
In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said, "Among
all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of
religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based
Christianity
Thomas Jefferson
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."
SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS
By John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short
Jefferson again
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the
first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."
More Jefferson
"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
enslaving mankind and adulturated by artificial constructions into a
contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ."
Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill."
John Adams
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines
and Oaths, and whole cartloads of other trumpery that we find religion
encumbered with in these days?"
Also Adams
"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion."
Here's Thomas Paine
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."
http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/founding-fathers-xtianity.html
"
Bigsky-
do you know that the definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different result??
Some of us actually WANT and NEED wolves. The world does not spin on the axis of the smalltime rancher. Montana and Wyoming and Idaho are not run at the pleasure and whim of cattlemen. We did not reintroduce wolves to destroy ranching. And by the way , you may think you have a " right" to earn a living, but it's actually just the privilege and opportunity to do so, not a mandate. You do not set the terms. The world does not owe you a living. Ranching is a euphemism for risky business.
Nobody is trying to run ranchers out of business . But we do expect them to evolve and change their business models and animal husbandry to adapt to the times. You really can't expect to impede all of civilization here by insisting the entirety of the American West be run on failed 19th century faux economics ; that we have to accept the " traditional ranching way " as the only way to do life in Montana---not! If your livelihood isn't profitable, try a new livelihood. Or modify your way of doing it. Start by factoring in losses towards your annual yields, if necessary. Cows are not sacred. They are cows.
Ranchers are simply going to have to learn to co-exist with predators and share the resources , not monopolize it. There is a whole new school of ranching in and around predators. Maybe you need to go back to school.
Going back a 1000 years would be the morons who almost eradicated the wolves, Bison, and Native Americans.
Where did you go to school.., or did you?
Hey Jed Clampet, open a book and actually read it!
Beginning to think most of you anti wildlife folk couldn't find your a** with both hands in your back pocket!
Still waiting on Todd as well!
I have been out of touch of this blog since Friday & see that I did not miss much! I went up to my property in Shawano Co to do some muzzleloader hunting.. ... My wife & I just got back from church with our two girls. My goal for today was to watch some football while doing some writing gearing that towards bringing to light that certain people were not part of the talks with the Governors & Salazar last week! The Great lakes should have been part of those discussions on the gray wolf and delisting!
I saw your last post. As I said before, I personally would not SSS but will not condemn one who does. This latest round of delays / environmental medaling in the hunting of the wolf has turned the majority of locals to the point of no return. There is so much distain and animosity for this high maintenance killer. Even a blind man can see that wolf policy is being set by people of the likes of Wayne Pacelle & Doug Honnold. People are going to start taking it one step further & start killing wolves in dens poisoning etc if they have not started already. I believe you are underestimating what is going on out in the field, at least from what I see in Northeast Wisconsin, Nye Montana, some of the sites I visit and contacts I've had in other wolf area of the country! You are doing the wolf a huge disfavor & I personally feel the damage being done will be irreversible and may have already been done! If you are looking for me to "police my crowd" you are writing to the wrong person.
I did harvest a ten point buck that is at the taxidermist as we speak & took many picture of the trophy one of my biggest bucks ever! I'm not buying your evolution thing....the disnification of some people are going too far. Hunting & growing meat for that matter is not something to be embarrassed about or needs to be kept from the public! You need some education & need to be desensitized from the anti-hunting fractions warping your mind! Taking a picture of the trophy is a tribute to the animal .... in this case one that had eluded hunters and wolves for over three or four years. He had massive antlers & I'm sure had passed his gene on for generations to come! The meat was made mostly into hamburger. Neighbors trail camera pictures showed that he had spent some time north east of our property & wandered our way during the rut. The hide is going if for another pair of gloves at our local Fleet Farm.
One thing I will admit &(try to correct) is that I have in the past not done any spell checking & sentence structure "etc" on a few posts only because I know it annoys you. :o) I don't need or want your approval in that regard! I've had enough accolades to know that I've done good work on the things I've touched in my day
Have you noticed the name calling on these blogs is almost exclusively by the left?
You NEEDED wolves in Yellowstone because hunting was not allowed.....yet try to hood wink the general public into thinking the rest of the National forest was a complete desert of devastation by prey & that wolves are the knight in shining armor that will save these areas from total biological collapes!
Dewey, Do you "NEED" wolves to push your anti-hunting agenda, for you see that you were successful in many areas in eliminating or curtailing hunting such as the Lolo elk range, the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd, The Clam Lake elk herd in Wisconsin or Moose hunting north of the Park to name a few.?
Do you NEED the wolf to stay federally protect for you fear that States will not have such deep pockets to tolerate the numbers needed to ascertain your anti-hunting goals! Dewey are you JUST needy!?
http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/
You and anyone can go to this site, the one for Minnesota, and the one for Michigan and scroll down to cuffs and collars. It's not the pro-wolf crowd that gives hunters a bad name. "Bad apples" with guns are the true nemesis to hunting. And as I wrote in my last post, all the SSS, gut shooting and talk of poison will do is drive people further into the anti-hunting camp. Even the head of the RMEF could see the potential for backlash, and asked hunters to not shoot wolves. I'll be honest. I have nothing but contempt for
anyone who would stoop to the aforementioned methods, nor for those who would turn a blind eye toward those that do. With your comment, you have only provided more fuel for the real anti-hunters.
The Leading biologists, Mech and Peterson, associated with the International Wolf Center are not adverse to wolf control. There is no disneyfication with these men. And yes, I get most of the site information I visit from the International Wolf Center. One stop shopping. You can see from their long news list that it is not all pro-wolf propaganda.
I need education about posing for a picture with something I've killed, no thanks. I've been there and done that, and from the bottom of my heart, my heart, not yours or anybody else's don't ever want to do it again. As I said before, the tribute to the animal is in thanks for the meal(s) it has given me.
Your ability to spell, we all make spelling mistakes, is no problem, and I never found your sentence structure, or grammar particularly annoying. I just could not understand what you wrote, and said as much. When you and a few others get worked up, both pro and anti wolf, one wonders.
As one said on another post, I'll take no blame for the mistakes you make, nor will I take credit for your success. Your faults, approvals, successes, and accolades are all self derived. But, yes, congratulations on your attempts to improve your writing.
The only thing I find the least bit annoying is continuing to generalize me in the "wolf hugger" category. On almost every site I write, I announce that yes, I am pro-wolf, I have always liked wolves, but that I also am in favor of wolf control. I was aware of the need for wolf management before reintroduction and recolonization of and by wolves. My evolution is to rise above the name calling and blind generalizations that contribute to absolutely nothing. I strive to be clear and concise about what I write, and will try to back my own comments and philosophies with as much factual evidence that I can muster.
• No, of course not. I really don't think well of US Fish and Wildlife Service and the politics of grizzlies and wolves they steer their work by . Private and academic researchers have my regards, usually . Trying to paint wolves as a platform for keeping researchers employed is completely silly . Those same researchers would be out there studying something else. A good wildlife biologist is never unemployed.
I noticed today on another blog that Montana FWP is lowering the boom on Montana State-Bozeman researcher Scott Creel because he, as a highly acccredited neutral wolf academic, researcher is coming up with numbers that show Montana FWP's wolf management is hopelessly off target.
'''Do you "NEED" and want wolves so the rich Environmental lawyers like Doug Honnold don't lose their cash cow.''''
• I know Doug Honnold personally . He lives a very austere quiet life. Far from being wealthy . The " wolf as enviro's cash cow" is a wholly bullshit argument . Capital BS.
''''You NEEDED wolves in Yellowstone because hunting was not allowed.....''''
• I guess you don;t recal or never knew about the Gardiner Firing Line in 1960-64 when professional hunters were brought in to slaughter a couple thousand elk and they bulldozed them into trenches and buried them . The public rightfully went ballistic over that. Yes , we needed wolves in Yellowstone. We also need them damn near everywhere else, too. SO DO THE ELK.
''''yet try to hood wink the general public into thinking the rest of the National forest was a complete desert of devastation by prey & that wolves are the knight in shining armor that will save these areas from total biological collapes! ''''
• Wrong on all counts ( and your spelling, too ). Where did you come up with any and all of that crap, anyway ? I'm starting to see a pattern here.
''''Dewey, Do you "NEED" wolves to push your anti-hunting agenda,''''
• No. I support hunting ; have guided for elk, deer, and bighorn and taken out antelope road hunters ; worked hunting ccamps for years ; ran the front gate of a private 110,000 acre ranch that allowed 300 hunters per year access; checked the game. What I do not support are slob hunters, outlaw outfitters, backcountry pirates and renegades, and arrogant hunters. Same standards I apply to all manner of folk, except the hunting crowd seems saturated wit 'em. It's why quit hunting and guiding..I hated the company was weeping. You can count the honest outfitter and guide with integrity on one hand. My county has 63 licensed backcountry elk hunting camps. I can only recommend 3 outfitters , if asked.
'''for you see that you were successful in many areas in eliminating or curtailing hunting such as the Lolo elk range, the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd''''
• I disagree on all these . ( Can't speak to Wisconsin) . Moose populations were crashjing pre-wolf. Other causes are also in the mix. . Blamecasting and scapegoating wolves is not accurate and certainly not helpful. You've swallowed the propaganda whole, without even digesting it...
''''Do you NEED the wolf to stay federally protect for you fear that States will not have such deep pockets to tolerate the numbers needed to ascertain your anti-hunting goals!
• Again , utter bullshit. I'm not anti-hunting. In fact , most of the environmentalists I know are also hunters , and we all support managed hunts of wolves as a regulatory method ( just not Wyoming's method).
'''Dewey are you JUST needy!?''''
• I resent your accusations and namecalling . You do not know me. Quit stereotyping.
Apologize, or just go away...
A couple of other posts came in between his tirade and my response before posting.
You said you had info, but yet to prove what you said.
To the rest of the anti wildlife community..,
You all seem to make these outrages false claims, are met with real facts, then you go to name calling. And you have the nerve to try to turn it around against those that disagree.
This is why I say you do YOUR side a disservice.
It's like when you don't know what else to say, you try to turn it around.
The threat of opposition to your cause is doing little to stoke any fires since out west, they HAVE ALREADY been taking things in their own hands for decades.
Poisoning wolves, neighbors dogs, other game like Elk because of these actions. Your threats are bullsh*t and you know it. You make them because you haven't a argument.
As I said before, poachers for all animals have been escalating, and it seems thats the type of hunters you all are.
Your talk will soon land you in jail, or worse.
When you have REAL facts, debate, or quit crying like a baby, and do real research!
Todd had made a statement about Grizzlies, then changed his point, but has yet to show proof....
Exactly how you all work.
Your fear based arguments are of the 1800's, and time is passing you by.
Come up with a original thought, and the fact that you all approve gut shooting shows any ethical hunter out there that you are garbage, and unwanted in the hunting realm.
Well, at least by the majority.
How many accidents this year do to hunting?
Someone earlier in this thread posted the first week in Minne, and it seems these people who are disreputable hunters were many!
You are proud to fall in to that category?
I stand by my statements of you all, and have seen some like you hunting.
You are grossly misguided, and unsafe!
It has nothing to do with management, just pure hatred.
I know NO hunter that I run with who would approve of it.
It only goes to prove the kind of people some hunters are.
Your last post was one of the better I have read in terms of point-by point refutation of an opponents/antagonist's post. The generalizing, stereotyping and at times hypocrisy are mind numbing.
I remember a time, I believe early 60's, when hay bales were air lifted into the Yellowstone area for starving elk. The whole thing with wolves, is after the bison were exterminated, all but about 400 or so, and the market hunters got done with everything else, the only thing remaining for wolves to eat were livestock, and that really got the wolf wars going.
Since the time of wolf extermination in the West, and for that part midwest, recovery programs were put in place for all the mammals with the only exception, wolves. That is being rectified, and it is a work in progress.
Mike,
From my last post
http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/
has the full list of this seasons busts and complaints from Wisconsin. Michigan and Minnesota are the same site, just change the state name. Once there, just scroll down to cuffs and collars.
Simply incredible to blame "anyone left on the pro-wolf side as anti-hunting." I am not anti hunting. I commend all patient, conscientious hunters.
Thank you for your info, and articulate debate.
The actions of some of these wolf hating people goes totally against any proper "stewardship" of Wildlife.
Thanks again for exposing these morons to whom they REALLY are.
I Agee with you thatmysrlf, andpeople I associate with Arron the minority, and we're not afraid tocall it like it is when dealingwith disreputable hunters.
It's sad that they dominate thesediscussions, and few like us speak up.
To those that advoocate gut shooting, you will have to answer to that one day, and do nothing for your argument but make fools of yourselves.
My hope is that the two communities work together someday on behalf of Wildlife everywhere.
After this go around on here, and the continued misinformation and outright hatred for a animal, I won't hold my breathe.
Todd, looks like you were bluffing, and now look even more foolish.
I gave you the benefit of a doubt, and you got outed.
And so it goes!
Sky, hope your eyes are open one day, until then, stick to fishing.
Immer and Andy and the rest of the law abiding community, merry Christmas!
Here is a thought to ponder...... If the Federal Government spend 5.2 billion paying lawyer fees for opposition in environmental cases it would only make sense that they spent another 5.2 bill putting on the case "judges" and defending it.... with that being said if the 10.4 billion spent was spent on legal wrangling was spent on purchasing habitat and we spent $2000 an acre could we not purchase 5.2 million acres? (that's two Yellowstone National Parks)
Just so you know, R22 , I do not belong to any environmental organization nor do I give them money , let alone take money from them . Your accusation is both unfounded and egregious.
Then again , the lawyers for Mountain States Legal Foundation , the Farm Bureau , the Wyoming (anti) Wolf Coalition , and the Blue Ribbon Coalition who have gone to court against wolves have done exactly the same thing you accuse the lawyers for conservation groups of doing. I guess that gets conveniently overlooked. Ask Harriet Hageman who's been paying to keep the lights on in her office this past decade....
And before you or Todd utter one more friggin' word about this $ 5.2 billion in legal fees be prepared to provide the source, spreadsheet , and dockets that demonstrate that dollar figure. I personally believe it's bogus and exaggerated by a factor of 10-50X. It's hyperbolic propaganda.
The entirety of the case against Big Tobacco involving 37 states and spread out over a decade only ran up a total legal bill of < $ 400 million
well said, and it's become abundantly clear that these goofs make up stats, distort stats, and prey on the fear of the less intelligent.
They continue to prey on the ignorance of those not in the know, as to wildlife, and proper management that enhances our ecosystem from which we ALL can benefit from.
Great post as always Dewey, and looking forward to learning more as well.
The hunting community needs to put in check. I'm sick of being in the bush with cretins like we've experienced out here.
I already have witnessed careless behavior, not only against animals, but people too. Most hunters of late seem to be unsafe and uncaring as to how they leave the environment.
I was always taught, come out with what you went in with, leave no garbage behind. I find garbage all the time now.
Merry Christmas my friend, and keep up the good work !
*notice Todd has yet to back up anything he's claimed, as these other guys.
Back in my day in the service, we called this FUBR.
http://idahofarmbureau.blogspot.com/2009/10/equal-access-to-justice-act.html
Dewey, This is a start, I know I can find a few more on the subject. This one says it's 4.7 bill in the last few years...... and that don't matter to me. If we used your 500 million that the environmental groups are wasting to do things like cram wolves down the throats of locals in poor habitat that's still way to much & a gross waste of tax payers' dollars!
You haven't spoken the truth since you have been on here Cheesehead!
You and Todd and Sky have been the Three Stooges all this time, without one original thought, and getting your panties in a bunch because you haven't a legit argument to offer, except to gut shoot animals, as if that's a answer to anything other than fines or jail for you.
Dewey speaks intelligently, and you nit wits can't keep up, and we all just have a laugh at your expense.
You seem to make a lot of gay references.., if you are trying to come out of the closet, I'm not interested.
Find another blog for that, we're talking about wildlife here.
You don't realize how stupid you make yourself look by not being able to debate, just attack others that are smarter than you, when you know you are wrong.
Thanks for the fodder though!
I have been speaking about this issue for a long, long time - its good to see that it is getting traction - if tax payer subsidies dried up for established industries just how profitable would they be - even with nuclear power's guaranteed loans they can't turn a profit - our public education system needs the money and our public information system (airwaves which belong to the public) need to broadcast this reality - the low information tax payer is purposely kept in the dark so the stealing of tax dollars can go on by the status quo in an effort to secure their status permanently - its beyond outrageous.
We need to keep talking about it