Diary of a Mad Voter: Joan McCarter
Fear and Loathing in the Immigration Debate
By Joan McCarter, 12-18-07
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The polls keep coming in on immigration, and the polls keep showing that the message the GOP Presidential candidates (as noted by Richard Martin at New West yesterday) is far harsher than American attitudes on the issue, and the GOP is losing Hispanic voters in droves. Could Republican voters in Iowa really be so concerned by the 3.7 percent of their population that’s Hispanic really running everyone else off?
Martin notes a new Pew poll that found “Hispanic registered voters nationally favor Democrats to Republicans by 57 to 23 percent, a 34-point gap that has increased by more than 10 points since 2006.” And how about this LA Times poll
that shows 60 percent national support for an earned path to citizenship for the 11-12 million undocumented immigrants in the country. Remarkably, this poll shows 62% support for this earned path with Republican voters. And this poll, like almost every other poll taken in the last few years shows immigration to the be the top issue with just 15 percent of all voters (see this new memo from the National Immigration Forum summarizing dozens of public polls on immigration). [Emphasis in the original.]
It could be voters have a much more nuanced and sophisticated approach to the issue than the pundits and politicians give them credit for. Wouldn’t that be a surprise. That more nuanced view could come from actual experience. Consider what’s happened in Arizona since the state passed a new harsh law that cracks down on employers who hire undocumented workers, as reported by The Wall Street Journal.
PHOENIX—Arizona businesses are firing Hispanic immigrants, moving operations to Mexico and freezing expansion plans ahead of a new law that cracks down on employers who hire undocumented workers....
Arizona’s law, believed to be the strictest in the nation, is shaping up as a test of how employers will react when faced with real sanctions for hiring undocumented labor. It is being closely watched by businesses across the country. While proponents say the crackdown will save the state money on services for illegal immigrants, some businesspeople fear Arizona’s economic growth may be at risk.
Under the law, people will be encouraged to contact a county sheriff’s or county attorney’s office to report businesses they suspect of employing an illegal immigrant. After the sheriff investigates, the county attorney can then seek to suspend and ultimately revoke the business license of an employer who knowingly hires an illegal immigrant. The measure would also require all Arizona businesses to use E-Verify, a federal online database, to confirm that new hires have valid Social Security numbers and are eligible for employment....
About 500,000 undocumented immigrants live in Arizona, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, and independent estimates suggest about 350,000 of them are working. Immigrants, both legal and illegal, account for 14% of the work force. The state enjoys one of the fastest-growing economies in the nation, and its unemployment rate last year was just 3.3%.
A University of Arizona study released earlier this year concluded that economic output would drop 8.2% annually if noncitizen foreign-born workers were removed from the labor force. Researchers estimate about two-thirds of the workers in that category are in the state illegally.
That’s the part of the debate that all too often gets left out when cynical politicians try to exploit the unease and the fear so many feel when the economy is faltering, the national mood is uncertain, and people are worried about the security of everything from their jobs, to their homes, to their kids’ schools. The problem is, when politicians run on promises of cracking down on illegal immigration, they end up with results like those the Journal reported: businesses closing up and jobs being lost. By increasing the burden for businesses to prove they are only employing documented workers, government is just shifting the economic burden that’s one of the primary costs of our broken system.
There’s no question that comprehensive immigration policy reform has to happen in this country, but the strategy we see in the GOP candidates of appealing to the worse emotions of their base is doing nothing to advance workable solutions. Immigration could be one of the most significant political and governing opportunities for Democrats in the coming years, and should provide a true test of whether they have what it takes to lead.
Editor’s note: Joan McCarter’s weekly blogs are part of NewWest.Net/Politics’ “Diary of a Mad Voter” feature, a group blog, published in partnership with the Denver Post’s Politics West intended give a glimpse into the hearts and minds of several independent-minded voters and thinkers in the Rocky Mountain West in the ‘08 election cycle. For more columns check in with www.newwest.net/madvoter. And for more information on each of the bloggers, click here.
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Comments
There is "fear" as you put it. Largely that fear is over people coming here a caotic ways that do not sift out undesireables that the legal immigration process does. I don't know anyone could call M-13 gang members merely 'undocumented immigrants,' unless, of course, those criminals are seen as potential D voters.
Take a look at the collection of news articles here that give a small snapshot of the size of the problem: http://www.alipac.us/article-topic-23.html
Then there is this from City Journal: http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_3_immigrant_gang.html
>>>>>>>>
Prosecutors in formerly crime-free Ventura County, California, sought an injunction this May against the Colonia Chiques gang after homicides rocketed up; an affidavit supporting the injunction details how Chiques members terrorize the local hospital whenever one of the gang arrives with a gunshot wound. Federal law enforcement officials in Virginia are tracking with alarm the spread of gang violence from Northern Virginia west into the Shenandoah Valley and south toward Charlottesville, a trend so disturbing that they secured federal funds this May to stanch the mayhem. “This is beyond a regional problem. It is, in fact, a national problem,” said FBI assistant director Michael Mason, head of the bureau’s Washington field office.
Open-borders apologists dismiss the Hispanic crime threat by observing that black crime rates are even higher. True, but irrelevant: the black population is not growing, whereas Hispanic immigration is reaching virtually every part of the country, sometimes radically changing local demographics. With a felony arrest rate up to triple that of whites, Hispanics can dramatically raise community crime levels.
<<<<<<<
I live in a very diverse community. Just yesterday I spoke with a neighbor about her efforts to bring her parents here legally. I offered her my assistance and wished her good luck. I support legal immigration.
More importantly, it is the opponents of legal immigration – including Americans for Legal Immigration PAC and certain folks at the Manhattan Institute/City Journal – who are preventing a legal immigration system that vets prospective immigrants from being implemented. Their strategy has been to make legal immigration as difficult as possible for everyone (and remember, legal immigration is not even an option for most people), then to rail against the illegalities as a way of turning folks against immigrants (with added counter-factual hysteria about crime and disease courtesy of Leprosy Lou Dobbs and others thrown in).
If we can get the vocal minority of immigration absolutists – no legal status for anyone here illegally ever – out of the way, then the country could move on to solve the problem and have a tightly regulated legal immigration system where everyone is subjected to criminal and health screening and everyone is 100% tax-compliant.
doing everything it can to create a
MEXICAN NATION and SHADOW GOVERNMENT
within the borders of the USA!
To focus on the individual illegal aliens
who are just pawns in a larger long-term
strategy OPENLY promoted by the last
three Mexican Presidents is missing
the fact on the ground that Mexico is
using illegal human waves in a race
war against the USA and all its Laws!
WE Are All Minutemen Now!
The Dems are pandering to the Hispanics and it has already bitten them. They are passing laws that benefit illegals and harm Americans. They risk losing the Black vote and many Dems ( this 20 year plus, phone banking, precinct walking, money raising Dem included) are fleeing in droves.
Watch out for the polls. Before the amnesty vote, all the media was touting one poll that said a majority of Americans supported it. Problem was, that is NOT what the poll found; only 24% of Americans supported it. I have checked polls cited my major newspaper supporting illegals and found the poll said not one word about immigration. I have written the journalist of one article asking for the name of the polls he cited... no answer.
So.. I have not checked this poll, but polls can be manipulated. It depends on the question, the options given, and who they poll. There are "push" polls, where the pollster sets it up to get the answer they want.
This poll result is really strange since Zogby and Ramussen polls since July have been pretty clear that Americans want deportation. Why the sudden switch?
And who cares if there is some economic disruption to cleaning up our society and riding it of criminals. The economy will bounce back. Dishonest business will pay a price for having been cheating. So what.
By the way, any amnesty which primarly benefits Hispanics and gives them preference over all other Americans is RACIST, and violates the equal protection clause of the Constitution.
Why do business, politicians and the media never ask for legal immigrants to replace illegals?
Because they just want Mexicans to further their goal of an integrated North America with huge windfall profits for the elite.
The real agenda here is the creation of a North American Union. But rathter than take it to the people, the “elite” are trying to hide it from Americans and “sneak it by us”.
Check out David Brooks' article last week criticizing Lou Dobbs for screwing up the “elite’s” bipartisan agreement for free trade and NAFTA. He mentions the huge profits, but forgets to say they are going to the “elite” while poor and middle class American is dissimated.
Check out Jeff Hoards videos on the North American Highway, showing politicians lying to us.
Check out Judicial Watch’s web site with the documents showing meetings for infrastructure integration and mentioning “open borders”, and the document that says since Americans will resist North American integration policy has to be set in secret and implemented by “evolution stealth”.
Check out http://www.stopnorthamericanunion.com
The "elite" is fighting with everything they have, the latest being a campaign to show that amnesty, they now call it legalization, is reasonable and is the only option reasonable people will consider. The present article is part of the propoganda war they are waging.
If they win, we have lost the rule of law and our Constitution, and all that remains will be to ask the last person in the country we once called America to lower the flag forever.
Spin away, Betty, but don't think you're getting away with it.
R politico's tend to gravitate to 1. while D politico's tend to congregate near 2. The rest of us walk by and see all of the contortions, hear the speechs and rhetoric, and view the fancy dance steps and wonder who represents us that want an orderly and healthy immigration process?
Does that mean that the majority of the construction industry, meat packing plants, landscaping companies, etc. are actually ran by Democrats? I used to work construction, and I don't remember any of my bosses being bleeding heart liberals.
See illegal aliens aren't coming here to rob houses or wait 8 hours in our living rooms, or because they want drivers licenses. They are coming here because Republican businesses like to hire illegal aliens for their low paying jobs. Arizona passed a law taking away the business license of firms that knowingly hire illegal aliens. Republican businesses are in Federal court TODAY trying to get the law thrown out
And look at your solutions. Big walls and private security firms with permanent contracts to drive around in dune buggies and shoot at Mexicans. Sure do love the smell of corporate welfare and no bid contracts in the morning!
Meanwhile the Republican businesses will encourage their "employees" to paddle rafts to CA and TX and dig tunnels under the mighty wall.
Party. Of. Principle. Hilarious. How's David Vitter and Larry Craig these days?
Illegal immigration is a big problem, and we need to get a grip on it isntead of name calling. And yes some of them come here to commit crime, there is more money to be stolen here for one thing.
And yes, Democrats were upset by those raids you mention. That is because there were cases of babies being left at home while their moms were hauled off. It wasn't because the meat-packers were closet Democrats (insert Larry Craig joke here). I think that is one of the fundamental "principles" that has come up lately. Republicans are more than happy to punish children for things they have no control over. They've shown this in immigration and SCHIP debates. I am not that callous or hateful.
Hey, we got a debate going!
Yes, there are Repubs who are for amnesty, heck it was Bush's bill. All the Neo Cons are behind it. And of course, big business, whether Dem or Repub are pushing like mad. But of the two parties, there is a core within the Republican party, ie most who are running for President, except McCain and Huckabee, who are standing up for the American people.
Just like there are groups within the Dem Party that are anti illegal and fighting like mad to stop this stupidity.
Before the amnesty vote, I checked the web sites of all the candiates.
Richardson and Hiliary were for open borders. Hililary's site now says something like secured borders (what does that mean? Secured against terrorists, and/or illegals/?). The reason Hiliary stumbled on the drivers license was that the Dems had just gotten their internal Democratic poll results and she found out that their spin (which it look like she actually believed .. that it would all blow over when people's emotions calmed down) was way off. A large number of Dems were anti amnesty and thought illegal immigraition was a huge problem.
No, this one cuts across party lines. But the GOP took it on chin in terms of the Hisapnic vote. Imagine if both the Dem and GOP candidate were pro amnesty. Thank God for the GOP.( Trusting McCain and Huckabee will wash away.)
At least this Dem who is anti illegal will have someone to vote for even if I have to hold my nose while doing it.
But the Dems may lose the Black vote, and they have their own supporters like myself walking away. And the Hispancs are ticked because the Dems have not yet delivered amnesty. Their sense of entitlement is unbeliebable. At one debate they demanded to known from HIlialry if she would pass amnesty within 100 days of being in office. HIliary said she could not promise anything.
There is a reason that legal immigrants are the forgotton ones in the debate. The pro illegals really do want only Mexicans. Read North American Union. You really have to read the things I mentioned, check our Hoards videos on this and you will clearly see the whole picture. "The Elite" as they call themselves have decided for this, and we the people are to be kept in the dark until it too late to do anything.
The latest proposal is that amnesty be given to some long standing illegals, and then the others get guest worker status.
No mention of legal immigrants. Again, it is all illegal, about 90% Mexican. And I bet there will be a provision that guest worker can become a citizen after x number of years.
It is still racist, discriminatory and violates the equal protection clause of the Constituiton. As well as violating the rule of law.
But it looks like there is another battle coming up to preserve our country, our culture and our language.
Big business wants North American Union. Period. The money involved is huge. Politicans and media are backing them. It is all part of the globalization process that they have decided to endorse, and they want to do the way that most profits the elite.. not the way that would profit every one.
Actually, I am in favor of a North American Union, IF it is done as the European did it. Step by step with a referendum by the people on each step. It was created to benefit all within the union, not just big business. And they provided that no country could enter until their social, political and economic status was equal to the members. Spain and Greece had to clean up their act and changew from third world countries to 1st world countriess.
Mexico would have to do the same. It could not come in until it was a real country, with its own strong economy, and clear corruption free politics, with American type values. Otherwise, live lava flowing down a mountain, all of Mexico will empty out in the USA. Which is what is happening now.
Don't forget the number of times in the last 6 months that President Calderson has addressed Americans, or Bush or the presidential candidates and made comments or told them what they should be doing. No a single word of protest from the USA!!!
That is a huge violation of our sovergnty!
Nope, this NAU is for real. Watch Jeff Hoards videos and see Bush being caught in lie about it.
Bush's aide went to Congress and was asked about the North Amreican Highway. He denied that it existed. Then literally one minute later he outlined exactly where the highway from Mexico to Canada would go. The newspaper said the Congressmens jaws hit the floor.
No, we are being lied to. We are being manuplated. And we WILL end up losing our country if this is not stopped NOW.
You're a simpleton, Betty. The Repubs have lied through every single election and you continue to fall for it.
Your diatribe was nothing but conjecture, by the way. You have no proof of Hillary's plans, you have nothing but the crap you read on LGF and other "white power" hate sites. Go somewhere else and peddle your lies.
As well, one of the local odious trolls said "I seem to remember a meat packing plant that was invaded and illegals arrested, and as I remember libs were screaming their eyes out about it."
Do you know why the libs were screaming about it? No? Do you know why you don't know why? Because you don't care, because you are an empty Republican, devoid of compassion for basic humanity.
But keep spouting your hate and lies. It shows the rest of America and the world what Idahoans have to offer them.
How exactly do neocons figure into this debate? This is about the moneycons, who really run the GOP. Do you think think they care about your ten bucks while Richard Mellon Scaife can dump a few million bucks into any astroturf organization he wants at any given time and get what he wants?
And does giving telecoms amnesty for the warrantless spying they started doing in 2001 (pre-9/11 I'll add) also violate the equal protection clause according to your esteemed legal analysis? I didn't get the anonymous e-mail with the equal protection clause argument, my crazy uncle is really dropping the ball!
I have to laugh at your contention that you are a Democrat. I want you to look up the term "concern troll", 'cuz that is what we are dealing with here. See there are certain "tells" that give you away as a member of the least informed group of nativist Republicans. Saying things like "preserve our country, our culture and our language" and ranting about the North American Union and NAFTA superhighway are dead give-aways. I can go to any number of white supremacist websites and hear this stuff. Tell me how scared you are of "Aztlan" and the reconquista? I am sure you are big into this stuff, that you know, was invented solely in the minds of racist groups like American Patrol and the Council of Concerned Citizens.
You are the very sort of person the (corporate welfare) border fences and fear of brown people driving cars arguments are meant to distract, while the real GOP agenda of instant low-wage employment that sinks all the boats (like liveable wages, social safety nets, and economic security) carries right along.
I don't even know what sites you are talking about.
You should check out the references I gave re the North American Union. You can decide if Bush speaking, PM Harper speaking, and the throne address in Manitoba is all make believe in Jeff Hoards video. You can check out the actual Bush documents re North American integration. Don't be lazy. Afraid? You should be. This is a really, really, really serious.
Re GOP: true the GOP may be lying. Besides not all gop are for the rule of law. McCain and Huckabee are amnesty, anti legal immigration, pro illegal candidates. But considering the number of Americans who are irate, if a pro rule of law GOP candidate is elected, it will be darn hard to go back on it. Especially as AZ is showing us right now that enforcement works. Take away jobs and freebies and illegals leave.
What is true is that Hiliary's two campaign aids are Hispanic and one used to head up La Raza and the other Mecha. Care to learn about these wonderful little organizations?
The real problem is if the illegals leave, the Mexican economy, such as it is, collapses. Ten per cent of their revenue is from oil is about ended, 20 percent from tourism, and the rest from monety sent home from USA.
So we are going to have to do some sort of Marshall type plan. I personally prefer mico loans directly to the people who self deport. Give it to the Mexican elite and it diappsers into their corrupt wallets. We may even need to station Marines in Mexico for many years to clean out the drug cartel and the gangs.
Re Hiliary. I read her "open border" statement on her web site before she changed it. I have heard her say she want a "secure" border whatever that means. She is equivocating also on amnesty, saying it should be for "some", which sounds like a limited number. But the problem with HIliary is NAFTA is Bill's baby. She will not want to destroy it. And that means continuation into a North American Union.
Don't forget Hiliary's campaign managers used to head up La Raza and Mecha, those charming neo fascist organizations. Care to read about their views?
"MEChA's founding principles state: "In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny...
Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and no to the foreign Europeans...
"For La Raza to do. Fuera de la Raza nada."
That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."
These words don't come from a fringe radical element. These come straight from the official MEChA sites at Georgetown University, the University of Texas, UCLA, University of Michigan, University of Oregon, and many other colleges and universities around the country.
Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, founder of La Raza Unida Party, Director of "Movimiento Latino USA de Los Angeles", has proudly said:“We have an aging white America…. They are dying…. They are **** in their pants with fear! I love it!” He then demands:“We have got to eliminate the gringo, and what I mean by that is if the worst comes to the worst, we have got to kill him.”
http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/JoseAngelGutierrezQuote.html
Richardson is at least a La Raza member. And he parots President Calderon every time Calderon makes a statement about the US Presidential race. I really wonder where Richardsons loyaties lie. My suspicion is that he is a ANIO - American in Name Only.
There is huge Hispanic push to have Hiliary accept Richardson as her VP.
Over to you Jay.
Re your second post:
Sure Repubs lie.
So do Democrats.
Remember 1986? " There will never, ever, be another request for amnesty, quaranteed". LOL
The meat packing plant - Swift isn't it? Yep, and the little kiddies who missed their mommies. Give me a break. Was there any kids left without an adult? If I am a murderer and I get picked up are you going to go all teary eyed because my kids have to spend a couple extra hours with the sitter?
If you are illegal in the USA and have not made arrangements for your kids if you are picked up by ICE, you are severely negligent parent and probably should have the kids removed from your home. I mean, how dumb can you be?
Nope, the only haters in this debate are the illegals and their anarchist supporters.
They hate whites, blacks, asians,.. etc all non browns.
They hate the rule of law.
They think they are entitled to prefential treatment above everyone else, probably because of their theory that they are the superior race.
They hate the English language and are refusing to learn it.
They hate American culture and are refusing to assimilate.
Time for them to go home.
Richardson is a La Raza member? Where is the proof? They back him, which is about it.
You give small movements far too much credit and ignore the racist element that you are supporting with your BS. What do you really fear? Brown people or just those "beaners" as you probably refer to them often enough?
I've stated before that attempting to make this a For/Against argument is pathetic and ignorant of reality. There are many realistic options for creating a secure border and none of it begins with a wall or guns. Unfortunately there are people like you that believe that there is an instant solution to an incredibly complex issue and you're unwilling to even listen to others ideas.
So what happened? A Mexican national step on your puppy? What creates such an obsession for a simpleton like yourself?
A small minority of EVERY race believes like you have in your last post, of that I don't disagree. Just like Michelle Malkin hates asian people, just like the South still treats blacks like secondary citizens, just like you hate Mexicans, Mexico, and anything associated with it.
Change a few words in your hate rant and it is true for Arabs, Jews, Caucasians, Blacks and just about any other identifiable class/race of people.
And yet you don't even see that your screed applies to you just as well.
You are misreading my posts. Drop the stereotypes. There are many like myself, long standing Dems (yep 20 + years) who are sick to have to vote for a Repub, but have no choice because this immigration issue is so important.
Whether this is exact or not I do not know, but I read in one month in CA the Dems lost 200,000 members. It could be from what I am seeing iwth my friends, again life long Dems who are FURIOUS about this total disrepect for the rule of law, the obvious racism, and the creating of a merged state without the people's consent.
And I am totally appalled at giving the telecom companies immunity. They should continue the lawsuits, we should find out exactly what our government did (I bet it was REALLY BAD), and the companies should pay up. That will teach them not to bend to the government in the future. I do not see how the Constitution's equal protection clause applies here. You do not have two groups being treated differently. Just Americans getting screwed by our politicians.
I am also appalled at Congress that in the Military Commisions Act gave immunity to all government employees for their torture. It makes me wonder what ever became of American values.
Frankly I am totally ticked at the Dems in Congress. They should NOT have funded the war. They should start to stand up to Bush but are too afraid of being called soft of national security, or racist or whatever. They could not even get a rational farm bill through.
On the North American Union, you better wake up. Have you gone to the sites I mentioned? Scared?
The policy re Aztlan is real. I have spoken with Hispanic friends who are for and against it. Wake up. Of course, when talking to them, I always ask if they are really going to take on the entire US military. There follows a dead silence, they had not considered that aspect of it!
They think if they have a vote, that will be it. Obviously they are illegal and know absolutely no US History! Then I ask what they think about Sherman's march through Georgia, and the fact that the USA War College still cites that tacit with approval. Again, they know nothing about it
It is rather naive. But if with North American integration, Hispanics become the majority in America, the whole country will be Aztlan.
And you can bet that it is the Neo Cons are partially behind it. It is a group of the "elite" of both parties, plus big business. This will make the rape of Iraq by our corporate sponsors look tame. It will also destroy America as we know it.
That is why you are getting so many people defecting from the Dems and defecting from the Repubs. There is a real middle section of the country who has had it with the venality, the lies, the greed, the disregard for our Constitution, for the rule of law, and just for common sense, and the way the elite (both Dems and Repubs) is pushing NAU.
Why do you say I hate Mexicans? Actually, I enjoy my friends.
You are the one with a problem. The anti rule of law crowd has no argument so all they do is say the other side is racist, nativist etc. Boo hoo hoo. Since I am not, and neither are 95% of the rule of law people, such allegations are just amusing, and show how desparate the ilegals are.
The La Raza / Mecha neo nazi groups re in most schools, from grade school onwards. There is a very serious racist problem within the Hispanic community. Also check out the Hispanic/Black problem in LA.
La Raza/ Mecha is rather like the KKK, all over the place, but it is much, much larger, and has a greater percentage of the group as members. The ACLU is going to have to go in and shut them down at some point. I was going to say after they start kiling peole but I understand that has already started in LA with the blacks.
I actually wonder if your Mexican friends pity you. You need some hobbies, get off the internet and stop obsessing about something that the President of the US has little control over. We have a system of checks and balances, or we did until the neo-cons took over. That system of checks and balances has to be restored before anything can be done about illegal immigration. Unfortunately we have people like you that will take up arms against an imaginary horde and the border will become a full blown battlezone.
But I'm sure you'll just blame it on the Mexicans. People like yourself are nothing if not predictable in your actions.
What are you talking about " take up arms"? I am a total pacifist and would never, for any reason, even self defense or in defense of my family, pick up a gun. Wow, you really have no arguments so you are using your imagination to find fault.
How about using reason and logic?
Is it against the law to come to a country illegally, work without right, steal others ID and ruin their credit and rack up huge bills in their name, ignore court orders, drive without a license,evade taxes etc?
What happens when you break the law?
You must pay the stated penalty.
And that is deportation.
Easy. Clear. To the point.
Ignore the rule of law = you have a third world country lke Mexico with corruption, crime, and a non functioning government.
Our government while not perfect, is functioning. And the American people still can roar when are politicians made idiots out of themselves like with the amensty bill.
There is a bipartisan bill right now in the House, SAVE, with enough sponsors from both parties to pass it. It provides for enforcement through the work place.
And I probably hate the neo cons as much if not more than you do. I spent three months of my life in 2006 walking up and down hills, and I am old, to go door to door to raise funds for Kerry. I racked up about $50,000. Not that I thought Kerry was great, but I despise Bush/Cheney/Rove/Wolfowitz/Perle/Mehlman etc.
There is no way I would vote for the Neo Con candiates Rudy and McCain.
You, being for amnesty, are the racist. You should rethink your position. What if the amnesty was being offered to 12 million whites? Get the picture? That would be racist. So offerng it to 12 million HIspanics is racist.
But you should really check out the NAU info. When I first heard about it I though it was a crock. But then I did some research, saw the original documents, spoke with friends in Canada, ( they are ahead of us on this one in terns of public awareness - their government is also refusing to talk to them and they are protesting) and realized there is something to this.
The more I learn about it, the more I realize it is a huge movement, part of the globalization movement, and it is not being structured to benefit the people, but just the elite.
The champion of THE PEOPLE has gone, but not forgotten!
You lied about Richardson, you conjectured about Hillary's thoughts, you operate from a realm of fear.
You claim I am for amnesty, when I have said nothing of the sort. I am against the knee jerk reactionary crap that you are spewing. I want a complete and total response to this issue, you want instant action against imaginary monsters that only exist in your tortured brain.
And then we have trolls like Britt there that think that Tancredo and his racist agenda is something special.
The things you guys spout are no different than has been done to other minorities across history. The results at the end will not be any different than history has shown because humanity lacks the visionaries to make the truly remarkable changes that are necessary for something different to happen. Sad, really. Instead we just get more "they're comin' to take our jorbs!" kind of fear and loathing that creates the conditions for violence. A sort of self-escalating idiocy that keeps society from being truly progressive.
I'm done here, Betty. You, like all the other trolls, have no intention of reading what I've written and you take everything I say and read into it what you want. Just like you've done with Hillary and any other politician except those that have directly played on your fears. I really do suggest you find a hobby and get off the internet before it becomes too late.
The brown people will to restore Aztlan, where everyone will be forced to gay marry. Once the sanctity of marriage is effectively destroyed, all will be impregnated by force (even males, through the evil powers of stem cells) only to be forced to undergo abortions. Then Al Gore will step in and steal everyone's monster trucks and snowmobiles. Then when everyone's guard is down, the Islamofascist paratroopers will swoop down in the night and cut the mens throats and force the women to wear burkas. Anyone who somehow survives this ordeal will be forced to pay for health care for children.
You are the troll.
You are the racist.
You are against the most fundatemental basis of America, the rule of law.
You have given up the debate because you have ZERO arguments to debate with.
You really do believe in make believe. And YOU have not read one word of my posts because the way you catagorize them are all wrong.
1. I am for the rule of law.
2. I am against lawbreakers
3. I am for immigration reform - only people who can come into the USA are legal immigrations, in the number and with the skills that best help our country.
4. I am for ALL races coming to the USA.
5. I am against only ONE RACE (Hispanic) being allowed to immigrate and to do it illegal in preference above all other people.
6. I am against La Raza /Mecha and their idea that the USA belongs to them, and that they can kick all non Hispanics out or kill them off.
7. I am for enforcing the law and requiring the illegals to return to their home countries
8. I am for a Marshall type plan to help the illegals who return to their home countries start a business and create a real economy there.
9. I am against violence, including the Latino Intifada being treated by the illegals.
You, Jay, have given up the debate because you have ZERO arguments to debate with. You just type what you "think" I should "think" according to your own limited stereotypes, and it is nonsense.
You, Jay, should examine your own prejudices.
You, Jay, should actually listen to what other says, and not put words, and ideas they never expressed in their mouths.
You, Jay, need to re-think your view on immigration.
You, Jay, really have no idea what you are talking about.
You, Jay, should learn to distinguish between propoganda and reality. You are buing into the propoganda. That means you will be easily led by those who want to manipulate you.
Sorry for being direct, but you really have not come up with FACTs in all our correspondence. It is all supposition, and name calling, and viterol, and stereotypes, and flat out fantasy ideas.
It might be the first time you have come up against a person with the facts who has taken the time to counter your propoganda slogans, and as seen from your posts, you have become more and more frustrated.
If you are frustrated ask yourself why? Maybe it because you are wrong, and don't have the facts, and the people who are for legal immigraton are actually right, are not in the least racist, and are thinking about the best interst of the whole country, not just Hispanics. While the pro illegals are only thinking about one race, are racists, are not thinking about the best intesest of the country and have an ulterior agenda that has nothing to do with America.
Give it some thought
Now I will vote for that!
Lol ^5.
Betty, I'll bite to your ignorance one more time:
1) You lied about Richardson and ignored my pointing that out. You didn't use any proof, just slander.
2) You don't know what Senator Clinton is thinking, you don't know what her final stance on immigration is, you are unwilling to accept at face value what she has on her website, why?
3) The Republicans are the ones that have voted FOR amnesty, that have introduced all of the bills for amnesty and yet you think that any single lying sack of crap Republican that promises you a quick fix on illegal immigration? Who is the gullible one?
4) The words you have used echo the words of countless generations of racists. The Black Panthers were used to slander all blacks in the 50's and 60's. The "they're breeding faster than us" has been used by Nazis and Conservatives alike against most other races at one time or another.
5) This is the first time you've mentioned a Marshall type plan in any sort of serious way in this entire debate.
6) Marion has cooties.
7) I am NOT for illegal immigration you stupid twit. I have never said I was. I am for a compassionate solution not for knee jerk reactionary racist bull solutions that will only make things worse for everyone. Tancredo is a racist ass that has no capability to accept logic or compassion in a plan.
8) I'm the one looking for a wholesome solution and suddenly I'm a racist? Nice proof.
9) You're a conspiracy nut for believing the Mecha and or Aztlan BS.
Facts. Nice huh? Marion being an odious troll has been proven over and over in countless other threads, so I count it as a fact as well.
Right Ms. Anti-wolfer?
Bettybb in fact wants to reward big business for their illegal behavior by giving them a bloated and permanent contract to build a huge wall and then permanently staff it. This is actually worse than amnesty, Bettybb want to reward people who are really good at breaking the law.
Imagine Bettybb using her tactics on drug use. She would be for over the top punishment for petty drug users while encouraging importation of drugs by the big cartels. Then she would award the cartels after that by paying them to act like they are stopping their own business (while ignoring the fact they kept on doing business).
1. Marion ^5.
2. Flounder - sorry I am NOT and have never been for amnesty/pathway/legalization. Please reread my posts. You must have me confused with Jap.
3. Flounder - I am anti big business in this Nafta/free trade/NAU problem. Please reread my posts. You must have me confused with Jay.
5. 6degrees:
That is the NEW La Raza web site, the cleaned up version since they went to DC and started playing politics. I read the OLD VERSIOn several years back.
They had their motto " For The Race Everthing, For Other Nothing", and a very nice map of what they called Aztlan, and detailed their plans for reconquista. They also had a direct link to MECHA, which is the group that promotes genocide of non brown people. Also, while I have not researched this myself, I have read that LA RAZA financially supports MECHA.
I have also spoken to La RAZA members within the past year who make no bones about what the goal is, take back of the USA, kick non browns out, or kill them.
LA RAZA members have been told by the group not to mention their motto (gee just because it is totally racist, why shouldn't the mention it?), and I read that LA RAZA is telling its members NOT TO LEARN ENGLISH.
5. Jay: Here we go:
1) You lied about Richardson and ignored my pointing that out. You didn't use any proof, just slander.
No I did not. Richardson is a member of La Raza. I read it in our newspaper about 6 months back. You want to check it out. Do so. You have not provided any facts at all.
2) You don't know what Senator Clinton is thinking, you don't know what her final stance on immigration is, you are unwilling to accept at face value what she has on her website, why?
Reread my posts. Aout six months ago she had " open borders" on her web site. I read it with my own eyes. Then she switched it to "secured" borders, whatever that means. It seems to me that her natural inclincation is towards NAU, especially as NAFTA is Bill's baby.
So, what is your point? What do you think her views are?
3) The Republicans are the ones that have voted FOR amnesty, that have introduced all of the bills for amnesty and yet you think that any single lying sack of crap Republican that promises you a quick fix on illegal immigration? Who is the gullible one?
Well, I am not a Repub. Never have been.
And it is split, some Repubs voted for amnesty (basically the NEO Cons), and some Dems voted for amnesty. Check the vote totals.
Which Repub are you referring to when you say that I believe they will provide quick fix to immigration?
I never said there would be quick fix.
Where do you come up with this stuff?
4) The words you have used echo the words of countless generations of racists. The Black Panthers were used to slander all blacks in the 50's and 60's. The "they're breeding faster than us" has been used by Nazis and Conservatives alike against most other races at one time or another.
??????
What words?
The USA Constitution? Preferences? Discriminiation against non Hispanic Americans? Racism against legal immigrants? Equal protection under the law? The Rule of Law? Deportation?
5) This is the first time you've mentioned a Marshall type plan in any sort of serious way in this entire debate.
Please go back and reread my posts. I wrote a quite a bit on the Marshall type plan I was proposing.
6) Marion has cooties.
Mrian rocks!
7) I am NOT for illegal immigration you stupid twit. I have never said I was. I am for a compassionate solution not for knee jerk reactionary racist bull solutions that will only make things worse for everyone. Tancredo is a racist ass that has no capability to accept logic or compassion in a plan.
What is your plan?
I presume that it will work, is economically sound, respects the rule of law, is "compassionate", and provides a long term solution.
8) I'm the one looking for a wholesome solution and suddenly I'm a racist? Nice proof.
What solution? You have not mentioned a single idea. Any proposal that prefers Hispanics over Americans of all other races is discriminatory. Just a reminder.
9) You're a conspiracy nut for believing the Mecha and or Aztlan BS.
You have your head in the sand if you are so unaware of what is going on. I would suggest you google the marches of a couple of years ago. There was one devoted just to Aztlan, with banners, and signs and Hispanics spitting on non Hispanics. I believe it was at that march that they peed on the USA flag and then burned it.
I look forward to your well thought out ideas.
Cheers! And if I am not back on line before Christmas, Happy Holidays to all of you!