The usual suspects. More interesting was who was not on the list.
Ws and sierra as well as their legal arm earth justice among several other "main stream"
ho hum.

Yes, Twister,
More of the same old, pretty much Earth First and it's zero-cut dregs. Andy Kerr, Dave Willis and so on. Thanks, anyway, Bill for at least presenting this so I can file it for later multiple use.

Here's one more for the list: Don't appoint Ken Salazar to Interior! What an insult to wildlife and wild places.

Mr. Twister and Dave, I think what might be "more of the same old" are knee-jerk comments from "the usual suspects."

I'd be really interested to know your specific problems with this list of priorities. Please, have at it....

Protecting old-growth forests and roadless wildlands on federal lands, developing a comprehensive climate policy for forests, increasing funding for watershed protection and restoration around rural communities and creating a special fund for fire fighting expenses, so large-scale forest fires won't drain discretionary agency budgets are, in fact, "main stream" ideas that are hardly radical.

Regarding the issue of what organizations are not on the list. It would be a mistake to assume that since the Sierra Club, or another member of the Big Green Groups, isn't on this list that they don't support these priorities. Often, these large groups like to do their own thing (likely so they can take credit and fundraise) and so they very rarly ever show up on big sign-on letters like this one.

This letter is thoughtful and the issues are certainly ones that everyone should be clearly looking at and taking action on. However, this list of signatories doesn't include any of the major players from conservation, fish, wildlife or recreational users. Conspicuously absent are Trout Unlimited, Sierra Club, Natural Resources Defense Council, Wilderness Society, American Rivers or any key national player of any reputation (good, bad or otherwise). Also absent are any credible Idaho groups, including the Idaho Conservatin League, Idaho Rivers United, TU chapters, Audubon chapters, Sierra Club chapters. Only Greater Yellowstone Coalition signed on. And what about all the Tribal nations of the Pacific Northwest and their interest in Salmon recovery. It's a start, for sure.
And I'm with the person who also questions the wisdom of Ken Salazar. One will hope he surrounds himself with good quality people. His record in Colorado at best is mixed.

The letter has a solid foundation, but why try to bully a new president right away? I work in the woods, and I haven't seen much in the way of rape and pillage related to things the letter states as needing amendment. Environmental regulation isn't being ignored right now, and a list of demands seems like it will foster continuing polarization amongst those who have to both work for conservation and live where they work.

They can't log anything except burned trees anymore, so where will they log if that is inhibited by clamping down on the CEs? Why not put out a list of new ideas, or ways to alternatively address problems, rather than pulling on one side of the rope because a big guy showed up. If the trees burn or die to insects, and we need logs, then we can try and import them from some third world country that doesn't care what gets cut.

FS lights backfires that take down more old growth trees every summer than any logger has taken in the last 5 years. There is no list of demands for how fire operations behave with the environment, old growth, riparian areas, or watersheds. 1000 plus miles of dozer line anywhere fires are burning.

Salazar is a rancher from Colorado, and everyone seems to think that makes him suspect. I think an urbanite with an activist background would be much more of a problem in the West, and I applaud the pick, particularly if it makes varied westerners sit down and work together.

I find it interesting that the groups want to tear apart existing legislation and start from scratch, taking up valuable time instead of starting with where we are at and making progress with that. Also, it seems to me that the Americans - green or not - are going to have to make a choice between renewable fuels and anti-logging legislation. Isn't wood, hence logs, a source of renewable fuels?

Additionally, if you take recreation away from the mountains and parks with the strict rules restricting off-road travel, what do you intend for the American public to do to enjoy these areas that their taxes pay for? I for one would like to be able to ride the trails.

Matthew, I don't need to answer your cheap shot...the last 2 posts did a better job than I could. That whistling sound you hear is the public support blowing away from vanity non-profits that accomplish nothing.

Mr. Twisted: Telling you that "I'd be really interested to know your specific problems with this list of priorities" is something you consider a "cheap shot?" Well, so be it. You failing and refusing to provide any substance regarding your problem with the list of priorities for the first 100 days is also quite telling, don't you think?

Also, while I appreciate that montana voice and Shannon have taken a look at the list and provided some feedback, I do not believe that all of their comments are an accurate reflection of what is contained in the list of priorities.

Matthew,
What i found to be a cheap shot was your suggesting that I somehow don't care enough about the world around me. Tell me again how sending you money will save the world. Please stop taking credit for the efforts of others trying to solve the problems you mentioned. Lots of people are working on solutions, you are working on publicity hoping all the while for more power in the new administration. Your distane of the larger groups speaks volumes.

Seriously, Mr. Twister, you're making stuff up or listening too carefully to the voices in your head. Please point out where I have suggested that you don't care about the world? Or please point out anything I said along the lines of "send me money to save the world." And where in the world have I "took credit for the efforts of others trying to solve problems?"

And where did I demonstrate anything in the way "distane of the larger groups?" I simply pointed out (based on about fifteen years of working with environmental groups of all shapes and sizes) why, in my opinion and based on my experience, the big groups often don't put their names on sign-on letters like this.

If you don't like the recommended list of priorities that nearly one hundred groups from around the country came up with, that's fine with me. I asked you to provide some specific examples of your concerns and you've refused to do that. Our organization is just one of the many groups who signed onto the list. However, I think the list of priorities is certainly "main stream" in what it is advocating for. Making stuff up about me or my motivations is another story. Please stop doing that. Perhaps if I was anonymous poster like you I could get away with saying anything. Thanks.

So, "voices in your head" isn't a cheap shot, Matt? As for making an argument here, why bother. The release was made in late November and it's only now hitting the "airwaves" -- so you obviously got next to no pull or play, being coopted in a way by the 318 page "Here's what we want" wish list from the, um, "mainstream" Greens. Which pretty much covers your bunch's main points. The larger question is why this latest thing was even necessary unless of course the second group was left out deliberately.
So no, I'm not going to respond to your question about what is wrong with your "priorities."

Ok matthew, here goes.
You imply I don't care by saying something like "why would'nt i be for watershead protection, firefighting funds,...blahblahblah. well who wouldn't. That's a little like saying "I'm sure so and so is not a wife beater", its a negative. I need to be more clear...you are right. Ex. dirs of fringe vanity non-profits take money from people to accomplish nothing...in my opinion. what you actually said was often, these large groups don't sign...because they do their own thing (and take credit for and fund raise), or close to that.
What i don't like is the transportation section down near the bottom of your hot list (among others) of very important things to do in the first 100 days of the new administration. I'm so glad to see the happy hundred have such a clear mandate for important change. Why don't you just call the letter "Give us what we want or we will sue". I'm sure Obama will give it all the attention it deserves.
As I said, that whistling sound you hear in your head is public support blowing away from vanity non-profits.
My name is Michael Gregston

If it weren't for cheap shots, the anti-enviro crowd would have nothing to post.

hi jedediah,
give my best to bambi.

The letter and discussion is revealing. First, not a lot of new ideas out there. The concern for global warming/climate change becomes yet another reason to not cut down trees. The Idolatry of the 2001 Roadless Rule continues unabated. Those crappy ESA regulations get called out. The less than crappy forest planning rules also get panned.

Seems to be some of the standard bayoneting the wounded in the old growth discussion.

The sign-on letter is an interesting study in group dynamics. For these grassroots groups (who complain a lot about the national environmental groups getting most of the money) to get their voices heard they decide to take collective action. The outcome is diversity of opinion gets subordinated to positions on a few broad issues, and more extreme positions win the day (see for example discussion in The Big Sort). Also, it gives conservation group leaders a chance to talk to and collaborate with one another, and getting groups to sign on via email is free.

The most outrageous actions of the Bush Administration have been with oil and gas leasing and associated road building and other developments. Secondly, the agencies have been starved through flat budgets as discretionary spending has been cut for agencies not involved in military and homeland security missions. These problems received secondary attention in the letter. True enough there was recognition of the fire suppression costs eating up now half of the Forest Service budget, but one of the driving factors has been the overall agency budget is flat while fire fighting costs escalate.

There is little that the Bush Administration did that I can support. But I think environmentalists would be wise to not revert to the methods employed during the Clinton era, because I don't think the Obama Administration is going to be so prone to pander to these groups and attempt to curry favor.

To the victor belongs the spoils. The issue is power politics. And we have seen that power politics has done little to preserve rural jobs and livelihoods, nor has it done much to preserve physical resources and aesthetic values.

More old growth has been lost to poor fire fighting strategy and insane backfires than would have been logged in the same decade under old logging regulations. Of course fire fighting has gotten too little money. Poor public policy cannot be cured by pouring cash into it. That is the national education model and has yet to work for any other benefit other than to increase salaries and benefits for educators. As Wall Street has proven, poor cabinet level direction, poor enforcement of existing law, political appointments to professional jobs, all take their toll. And this green group wish list is just more political pressure to do for one group, and not the whole of the nation. They want their people to push their policy, and anytime it is a one-sided deal, it is not good for long.

The headline in my paper today says people who invested in the State of Oregon run College Investment Fund, 70,000 investors trying to secure college for the benefit of 100,000 kids, kin, have lost 38% of their investment while similar plans have a 4% gain. 24 years of political back slapping by the same party, rewards for political support, have once again hosed the people who elect these idiots. Close examination of environmental "gains" will reveal that some are losses, and it is political pandering that is at fault. If you think Democrats are the answer, you are mistaking party political theory for practical experience and ability. Oregon, and metropolitan Portland, has had Democrats running every facet of State Government for 24 years. That explains the biodiesel contract for $7.35 per gallon fuel. That explains light rail taking up freeway lanes at a cost of $45 million per mile to build WITHOUT LAND ACQUISITION COSTS. That explains tree choked State lands unthinned (common school lands dedicated to education). A good social service agenda and support is not a guarantee of natural resource protection or wise use. Being against a war is not a guarantee of homeland security, or even a lasting peace. Stuffing fingers into the dikes of excess in the financial world is not a guarantee of financial solvency and health. Bush inherited neglected problems, and chaos in the intelligence agencies. He got 9/11 out of that. And for all his faults, and they are legion, we did not get hit again by fundamentalist Islamic terrorism again in his tenure, and did get a measure of justice for the world, like it or not. His natural resource agenda was overtaken by terrorism and porous borders. That we have insane fire policy out of that is to be expected, I suppose. I see nothing in the green agenda to stem those losses or even recognize them as losses of watershed values, aesthetic values, visit opportunity, and air quality. Painting those losses as a step forward in forest health is Potemkin at his best.

A lot about America right now is not on a correct course. And if the wheel is swung too far in one direction, we will only pass by the correct course as we swing too far the other way. Our government was designed to be like a "hunting" auto pilot, like the old Doc Freeman kind on fishing boats. The cat whiskers on the compass serving the reversing motor tending the wheel would allow the boat to go just beyond the set course, and then it would automatically turn the wheel the opposite direction, and your straight course would actually be an endless series of short zigs and zags. We have lost the short zigs and zags and now have to deal with long zigs and zags, and the trip takes longer to reach the destination, with a lot of anxiety as we know when we are off course and the correction seems to be not forthcoming. The fear that the "brain box" will fail, and the wheel will go hard over is there. And we can end up going in the opposite direction in heavy seas, a dangerous and frightening circumstance. Somehow, when that happens, you have to come about, again, in a tough ocean, and get your bow head on to the problems thrown at you. Our Constitution and democracy should ensure that it does. If not, and if it has become one sided through endless litigation from one side, there will come a time when the other side of the equation ponies up with the dough to litigate at a more frequent and intensive rate. And forces government to litigate as well. Be the plaintiff, not the defendant.

I write this as the sun comes up to reveal 3" of new snow, an infrequent event in our marine climate, and another indication of how serious global warming is, another colder than usual day for this year, with 12 more days of cold predicted, and 12 more days to pull the average temperature for the year down. Another foot or more of new snow in the mountains for summer water, and more water to grow more trees, to add growth to trees, all of which become more fuel for ignition in the time of summer drought, which we do have every year, except this one. This year, 2008, it rained on the day in July that had never before recorded rain. End to that annual one day drought, too. Just another anomaly. Hot days, dry days, are not anomalies, but cold and wet ones are. That, folks, is the new science. Bush did not address our climate, and what we have done to it. Now, magically, with a Democrat President elect, it is cold and snowing. Go figure. Vindication for the Greenies!!! We are having a $600,000,000 snow storm!!

Matt,

I have to admit I'm amused to see you getting picked on. I know you changed your organization's name to appear more mainstream, but just because you're the WildWest Institute, doesn't mean we're going to buy it. You're playing the moderate in this particular thread, but in other's you compare an actual mainstream (i.e. has members who are allowed to disagree with each other) organization's television show a "giant blow job for budweiser."

http://www.missoulanews.com/index.cfm?do=article.details&id=225FC849-14D1-13A2-9F11CE706EF92EF8

As an individual who slams attempts at constructive collaboration and said it was no longer necessary to collaborate since Bush will be out of office soon, you are one of the reasons "greenie" is a bad word in the West. You have accused The Wilderness Society of not being a good enough conservation organization. There's a reason you're personally known in Seeley Lake as a "bomb thrower" and have lost credibility with all but the knee-jerk environmentalists and armageddon minded misanthropes.

hey wait! I thought I was the one getting picked on. One thing for sure, I am way out of my league. Bud will never be the same.
Thanks Matthew.

Pissy,

I stand by what I said about the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation's TV show that I tuned into recently. Thanks for providing the link to my comment on the Missoula Indy site, as folks can see that I'm hardly the only one who feels that way. Speaking of the Elk Foundation, I'd highly recommend that folks read Hal Herring's recent commentary in High Country News called "Trashing the earth, and the truth." I'll let the article speak for itself, but it's related to the Bush Administration's energy development plans and the former RMEF CEO's (Peter J. Dart) efforts to silence criticism of Bush. It's worth a read.

Pissy, you continue a long tradition of anonymous posters criticizing me and making stuff up in the process. For example, where have I ever said "it was no longer necessary to collaborate since Bush will be out of office soon?" I've never said it and truth is our small, grassroots organization (the WildWest Institute) is deeply involved with a number of collaboratives on the Lolo, Bitterroot and Salmon-Challis National Forests and with FireSafe Montana, among others.

Besides, I don't slam "constructive collaboration" that is open, honest and inclusive to deal with public land issues. What I slam is something that a recent timber industry partner told me were these "selective collaborations" that deal with public land issues, but are not open and inclusive. Clearly the Beaverhead-Deerlodge Partnership is one such example and if you look at Wild Bill's numerous articles about this "selective collaboration" you'll see, again, that I'm hardly the only person who has concerns about this approach. The Blackfoot-Clearwater plan for the Seeley Lake District is another example of "selective collaboration." Just ask the Sierra Club or other mainstream groups if they've been included, invited or their concerns listened to. Thanks.

WE got our answer about our government last night on the news. GoldmanSachs, Paulson's outfit, got $10billion in the bailout. New money. From taxpayers. And everyone in this country who earns an income gets the first 6.25% of it and matched by his employer, taken out of the first dollar of income. SSI. Sloppy Slushfund Income. The poorest who work pay as much as anyone else in earned income. Up to the limit, of course, which precludes the millionaires...and that includes the big bonuses....And yesterday, GoldmanSachs, asleep at the wheel in the Wall Street debacle, wrote $10.38 Billion worth of bonus and benefit checks to employees and executives. Yep. We the taxpayers underwrote million dollar plus bonuses for Wall Street bankers who have screwed this country into deep recession.

MY ass burns. MY head spins. I am so frigging angry I don't know what to do. And don't give me any reason or support for one political party over another. They both are in on it. We have lost control of our government. It is over. We have been subdued. We are now slaves to the oligarchies of Wall Street. The Chuck Schumers and the Bushes, the Dancing (banking) Queen Barney Frank, all are against working people, US citizens, the poorest of taxpayers.

In the real world, it would take great effort to keep Paulson and GoldmanSachs, et al, from being lined up against a wall, given a cigarette and a choice of blindfold or not. In the real world. This is no longer a real world in these United States. The GoldmanSachs middle finger to Joe Sixpack has been seen, understood, and we now know where we stand.

I am now firmly for no more bailouts. None. Survival of the fittest. You fail, it is your fault, and too bad, so sad. It will be a deep and long dive to the bottom, and will be quick, and the time to recovery will be a lot shorter. Let's get it over with. Bring it on. If it is a good deal to burn an old growth forest so that it might renew itself, no matter what is lost forever, then so must it be for our economy. The rebuild will give us a better deal. More energy efficient factories, or cleaner ships to bring the goods here from overseas carbon puker factories. People will have to stay in school or starve. We can buy them tickets to jobs on other continents if they can't find work here.

If we are so stupid as to put up with giving people food stamps to buy processed food and unhealthy sugar laced convenience food, thus eliminating even working to feed themselves other than using a microwave, then we should expect to pay the bonuses of the people who have stolen our immediate future. We are getting what we tolerate or want or are unwilling to change. And don't expect the new crew in D.C. to change anything about enriching themselves and hosing you. Only we can stop that. And we have not indicated to anyone we are willing to even slow it down.

This Green "wish list" is not timely, nor is it obtainable at this time. Unless, of course, there is a path to personal enrichment in the deal. Not NGO enrichment which has been the case for the last 20 years or more, but personal enrichment. Musical chairs between NGOs boards and Administrative jobs with government has to stop. Sweetheart deals with business and government and sweetheart deals with unions and government, all have to stop. If there is to be "change" in government as promised, this crap of personal enrichment has to stop. The taxpayers can no longer pay for personal enrichment.

My particular beef is with retirees able to contract back to keep on working for government. No more of that. Once you retire on a government retirement at any level, you are done working for any level of local, state, or federal government. You have a retirement. Let some young person have a job. That is what retirement is about, the freeing up of a job for new blood. No payroll or personal service contracts after retirement. And I won't accept the argument about talent and knowledge. Teach someone else. There are more people, and therefore more smart people available. That is what population growth is about. Ask India. Or China. If you can't afford to retire, then keep on working. This having your cake and eating it, too, has to cease.

We no longer can hand out money to "save" our economy. If it is a lost cause, then we need to lose it and rebuild it. We have before, and we can again. We can no longer ask minimum wage earners to pay taxes to buy luxuries for Wall Street screw ups. That has to stop. Right Cod damned NOW!!!

Unless we do something about the egregious size of our global population, most of our efforts to reduce carbon in the atmosphere are doomed. We must continue to pursue energy efficiency and renewables, as well as eliminate the use of fossil fuels (particularly coal), but the big population elephant in the room cannot be ignored.

So how do we control AND reduce our global population? Here are some of ideas that may seem obvious but I’m sure will be very tough to convince people to adopt on a voluntary basis:

First, we all must resolve to limit our families to no more than two children. Having more than two children will result in the loss of tax deductions and maybe even a head tax for each child over the limit. Very large families need to become a thing of the past and all peoples must adopt a global birth control initiative. As the saying goes “the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”.


Second, we all must realize that we have a “duty to die” as coined by the past Governor of Colorado, Richard Lamm. What he was generally referring to in his statement was that people who have very debilitating sicknesses have a duty to die and not needlessly prolong their life all at the emotional expense of family members as well as the huge cost to the medical establishment. People MUST say enough is enough and bid farewell.

Third, all people worldwide need immediate access to education to help them understand our worldwide predicament (especially the crowded part) and learn how to create businesses and life styles that will support them and their families without destroying the rainforests and at the same time keeping them in their communities. And it's clear that more educated people better understand the value of contraception and small families. Montana author Greg Mortenson’s book Three Cups of Tea is a superb example of how a committed plan to educate the less fortunate can dramatically change the fortunes of people. Everyone should read that book.

-Jon Cheever

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