Hunting and Predators--does it work?
By George Wuerthner, Unfiltered 11-11-10
![]() |
|
Hunting and Predators—does it make Sense?
As many readers may know, wolves were recently relisted under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) removing management authority from state wildlife agencies in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho. The strongest voices opposing further protection of wolves have come from ranchers, hunters, outfitters, and hunter organization like the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. They are demanding that the ESA be amended to allow sport hunting in the northern Rockies.
These individuals and organizations argue that wolves need to be hunted and managed “like other wildlife.” Proponents of wolf hunting argue that wolf numbers are too high and are a threat to the livestock industry as well as elk and deer populations. They also suggest that without hunting, wolves will “lose their fear of man” and rampage through towns and villages snatching up children and adults. In other words, unhunted predators are a threat to human health and prosperity.
Underlying all these assertions is the assumption that hunting will reduce human conflicts. One might presume that given the strong support for hunting that there is a lot of scientific evidence to buttress the contentions that hunting reduces livestock losses, increases prey abundance, and reduces predator attacks on humans. Unfortunately there has been little research to date that tests these assumptions, and is a growing body of evidence suggests that indiscriminate predator control, whether due to sport hunting or by predator control agencies like Wildlife Services, has the opposite effect and actually increases conflicts between humans and predators.
A self fulfilling feedback mechanism results whereby state wildlife agencies institute hunting of predators, creating more social chaos, which in turn leads to greater human conflicts, and more demands for even greater predator control.
For instance, Adrian Treves writing in a review of hunting effects on large predators in the Journal of Applied Ecology concluded “the direct impact of hunting on conflicts with carnivores over game and property damage is unclear and even doubtful given the inability or unwillingness of hunters to remove specific individuals selectively.” In other words, hunting if it works at all is a very blunt and ineffective “tool” for alleviating real and/or perceived conflicts between predators and humans.
Another study which looked at hunting of bears in five states and one Canadian province found that as bear deaths rose as a consequence of more liberal hunting regulations, so did conflicts with humans. As a comparison, the authors also reviewed bear-human conflicts in unhunted bear populations where education and changes in human behavior were implemented such as use of bear proof garbage cans, and found that even as bear numbers increased, human conflicts decreased significantly. They concluded that bear hunting was an ineffective means of reducing conflicts.
Perhaps the best control we have on the effects of hunting on predator-human conflicts is California. In 1991 California voters passed an initiative that outlawed hunting of cougars. Today California has more cougars (about 6000) than any other western state, yet has the lowest per capita rate of cougar attacks in the West. In other words, in states where cougars are hunted so they presumably “fear man” there are far more cougar attacks on people than in California—even though California has more people, and more cougars than any other state—thus should, statistically speaking, have much higher per capita cougar attacks.
California also has one of the lowest livestock losses in the West attributed to cougars as well suggesting that hunting is ineffective at reducing conflicts with ranchers—in fact the evidence suggests that hunting actually increases livestock losses in many instances.
In the latest year for statistics (2009) California Fish and Game removed (i.e. killed) only 42 cougars in the entire state. This is very conservative compared to the hundreds killed annually in other western states that permit hunting yet have far lower cougar populations. For instance, Oregon hunters killed 247 cougars in 2009 and this number does not include the cougars also killed by Wildlife Services for livestock depredation and/or human safety. Yet Oregon with a human population 1/10 the size of California reports far more human/cougar conflicts than California.
Another recent study of cougars in Washington found a similar relationship. As cougar hunting was intensified by the state wildlife agency, and researchers were able to document that the cougar population was actually in severe decline, yet complains and conflicts between humans and cougars actually increased.
What’s going on here?
The answer is that large predators like cougar, bears, and wolves are social animals. And indiscriminate hunting disrupts predator social relationships creating social chaos. Just as humans living in a war zone resort to desperate means to survive including stealing, robbing, illegal trade, prostitution, and what have you, predators respond to social disruption in ways that results in more human conflicts. One explanation is that hunting skews populations towards younger animals. Younger animals are less skillful hunters, and more likely to travel greater distances either in hunting and/or looking for a territory to occupy, thus putting them in potential conflict with humans.
State agencies reassure citizens that they will maintain predator populations, but ignore predator social ecology. It’s possible to have the same number of predators and yet create social chaos by sport hunting. For example, unhunted wolf packs tend to be more stable and have a higher ratio of adults to pups. A stable wolf pack with older more experienced hunters is more effective at finding prey. Plus a larger pack can more easily defend and hold a larger territory which means that overall predation pressure on prey species is lessened since some portions of that territory are lightly hunted providing a refugia for prey.
By contract, in heavily hunted wolf populations, the packs tend to be smaller, with fewer experienced adult hunters, and a higher proportion of pups to feed. Plus smaller packs are less able to defend a stable territory thus are more likely to be hunting in new unfamiliar territory. With more packs you may get a more effective coverage of a limited geographic area increasing overall predation pressure on prey.
To illustrate imagine an unhunted wolf population with 15 pack members consisting of 10 adults and five pups of the year occupying a territory of 100 square miles. The 10 adults can easily provide food for the five pups, plus more easily hold and defend a territory.
In a hunted population you could have the same 15 wolves also hunting the same 100 square miles, but perhaps broken up into 3 packs of five wolves each consisting of 2 adults and 3 pups in each pack. The average age of wolves in hunted populations is considerably younger than in unhunted populations. Younger wolves are less experienced at hunting and thus are far more likely to attack easy prey like livestock. In addition, the three packs may more completely and regularly patrol the 100 square miles of occupied territory thus leaving fewer refugia for prey.
In our imaginary hunted packs, there are two adults per pack. These two adults have a much more difficult time providing food for the pups than the ten adult hunters in the unhunted wolf pack, especially since one adult typically remains with the pups while the other adult is hunting. A single wolf has a difficult time bringing down large prey like elk. As a consequence the hunted wolf packs are much more likely to kill easy prey like livestock.
And worse for hunters, small packs cannot consume an entire elk in one night. And scavengers like ravens, coyotes, grizzly bears and so forth can move in and clean up a carcass in a single night forcing the pack to go out and find another elk or deer immediately. While a larger pack can more easily guard its kill and consume it more completely.
In addition, growing pups are like teens everywhere. They eat a lot of food for their size. The 15 wolves in three packs have 9 pups to feed compared to the 5 pups in the unhunted population, thus ultimately hunted wolf packs may kill more elk and deer biomass to feed their pups than a more stable unhunted population.
Finally the assertion by hunters that predators will “destroy” hunting is overblown and exaggerated. While there is no doubt that wolves and other predators can depress game populations in some places, such population declines are not a threat to hunting. In Minnesota which has more than 3000-3,500 wolves (also protected by the ESA) and where wolf numbers have been consistently higher for a much longer time there are more than a million whitetail deer, and hunters regularly kill between 150,000 and 200,000 deer annually. This despite the presence of more than twice as many wolves as are found in the entire Northern Rockies (approximately 1600-1700wolves spread over three states). Obviously hunting did not disappear in Minnesota as a consequence of wolf predation.
Even where and when predators appear to depress ungulate numbers (elk and deer) it should not be characterized as a “problem” as commonly portrayed by state wildlife agencies or hunting organizations. Recent research on the effect of wolves and other predators on elk and other herbivores numbers suggest that predators can sometimes change game habitat use and numbers, however, the overall effect is often positive for the landscape. A reduction in herbivore pressure results in an increase in browse such as willows and cottonwoods, providing for more songbird habitat, more stream riparian stability and restoration—hence trout habitat—and an increase in beaver.
The presence of wolves can also influence other predators. For example, in areas with high wolf numbers, coyotes are reduced. And since coyotes are the major predator on pronghorn fawns, an increase in wolves’ results in higher pronghorn fawn survival. These positive changes and many others we unlikely do not even know about at this time results from the presence of predators. In other words, if we want wolves to have any ecosystem influences, we must manage predators for maximum populations, not minimum numbers as advocated by many hunting organizations.
Furthermore, when state wildlife agencies increase hunting effort of predators by adopting more liberal seasons and take of animals in an effort to reduce human/predator conflicts, they ignore the geography of hunter effort. Hunters generally do not target the very animals of most concern—i.e. those animals habituated to life near human communities and/or preying on livestock located on private lands. There is a logical reason for this. Hunters tend to hunt the larger blocks of public lands, not the fringes of towns where one may find habituated predators as well as the private lands where livestock killers are likely to roam.
To sum up hunting is an ineffective means to reduce human/predator conflicts. In fact, a growing body of scientific research (largely ignored by state wildlife agencies) suggests standard wildlife management predicated on sport hunting increases human-predator conflicts and threatens long term ecosystem health. You cannot “manage wolves like other wildlife.” Indeed, the best way to “manage” wolves and other predators is not to kill them at all, except perhaps for the rare surgical removal of a few chronic livestock killers or the occasional animal that become habituated to humans.
Like this story? Get more! Sign up for our free newsletters.





Comments
Can you cite where you get information on per capita rates of cougar attacks in California and Oregon?
I'd also like to know your source of information for livestock losses being lower in California than other Western states. Are these per capita rates or a total number of losses?
Thanks!
Luke
I like wolves better than I like most politicians.
This is the case in Idaho's Sawtooth Zone, which includes the Sawtooth Wilderness Area, several hunt units surrounding that wilderness, including the Boise River Zone. This section of Idaho is very vertical, but holds thousands of meadows, wooded slopes, lakes and rivers..
This area is as large if not larger than YNP.. I live in the middle of it and frequent all of it annually. What George describes in his article is flat out not happening in this section of Idaho.. The wolves have pounded the elk, pounded the deer, and other predators have suffered because of it. Many businesses are failing in parts of this area, the Lowman Lodge sits vacant and bankrupt, once a thriving lodge depending on hunters dollars, for lodging, gas, foods.. etc. etc..
Instead of 3/1/2 months of revenue during the archery, rifle, musket seasons, we have a ghost town now.. Not only are the elk and deer suffering collapse in this area, the cougars and bears are, and the wolves, after reaching population climax have moved on..
The hunt units involved are 33-34-35-36-Boise Zone -39.. Migrations from the Frank Church out of units 25-26-27 and 34 are seriously depleted, thousands of ungulates are not arriving to the southern sections of the Sawtooth Zone. As well, the lower hunt units below the Sawtooth Zone are showing serious drops in those migrations coming out the Sawtooth Zone, into units 43-44-45-48-49-50- And the lower sections of the Boise River Zone.. Unit 39.. George may be right in some aspects of his analogy, but I think terrain plays a part as well.
The resource for the hunting community is not what it once was..Not even close.. And IDFG has cut tag opportunity in the Sawtooths by 50% or more.. Cow elk hunts during the rifle season are canceled. The open tag for the area is limited now, where it was once non limited. And those tags are not selling out because finding elk in the toughest hunt in Idaho went from doable to near impossible. The wolves which were once very visible, many wolf tracks and scat, and listening to them howl was frequent, this is not the case anylonger. It's mostly sterile here in the forests.. Some people call this a normal or natural balance.. I call it a crash..
Elk numbers in the Lolo and Sawtooth elk management zones are seriously depressed -- by wolf predation. The science (years of high quality elk and wolf population radio-telemetry data) is clear. Wolf predation is depressing elk production well below what we should expect for the habitat quality in those zones. Elk habitat quality was following a natural, declining trend after the 1910 fires. The depressed elk production and the factors contributing to that depression is a combination of habitat quality AND substantial wolf predation on productive cow and calf elk.
---Mark Gamblin--South West Director Idaho Fish and Game..August 15, 2009, 2:40 pm
The Lolo and Sawtooth Zones the recent, sharp decline in elk productivity and recruitment I referred to is due to wolf predation of productive cows and their calves, not hunting mortality. The radio-telemety data we have for cows and calves in those zones gives us the fate of each collared elk and allows us to accurately estimate the wolf predation rate of cows and calves. Having good baseline data for these elk populations from previous years, including hunting harvest data, we can say with certainty that wolf predation has pushed elk production and recruitment in these two zones below levels that have required substantial reductions in the elk hunting opportunity that was allowable with essentially the same habitat when wolves were introduced. HOW we manage this new wildlife population dynamic (elk-wolf) and the necessary changes in public uses and benefits of those resources is of course our challenge.--- Mark Gamblin -----South West Director Idaho Fish and Game..August 15, 2009 4:08 pm
George, could I ask you, what are your credentials... No offense mister, but you're wrong, at least concerning where I am looking from..
The author needs to know as well as the public, that destroying a wolf in a livestock issues also causes chaos. Why? Destroy a wolf, the pack is left without an individual in it, and it makes hunting harder, and makes the slaughter of wolves continue since they will go after livestock. And after the wolves are slaughtered more will come in to replace them in that area anyway. It's been proven more effective to use non-lethal methods and to make it unattractive for wolves to come near livestock.
http://www.heartofthewolf.org/source.html
We do agree on the hunting part though. Sport hunting of predators is wrong and unethical.
Mike Wagner
Founder and Executive Director of Heart of the Wolf Organization
" Alaska had more than a million caribou during the 1920s. Three decades later, during the 1950s, caribou numbers were at an all time low of only 140,000. Wolf predation was probably the primary cause for the decline; human hunting didn't cause the reduction. The Nelchina herd was hard hit by wolf predation. For a time there were only seven calves per hundred adults in the fall counts. Bob Burkholder and Buck Harris both federal predator agents started trapping and aerial hunting wolves in the Nelchina country. Over a three year period the killed more than 300 wolves there. The number of calves per hundred caribou jumped to 15---more than double the previous figure .As caribou increased in response to wolf reduction, the kill by human hunters doubled. With good numbers of caribou in the herd, wolf hunting was stopped, and wolves also gradually increased in the area. " ---Frank Glaser--Alaska's wolf man.
Oh look, management by man works, both man and wolf can eat together..err live together ! This wolf war amounts to one group wanting exactly what Glaser describes, men and wolves sharing the herds.. The other selfish group wants to over protect the wolf, allowing the wolves to over predate the herds and end up starving to death, as many will and have.. IDFGs director has stated wolves are starving to death in parts of Idaho. This same selfish group also could care less about ungulate herd populations which sustain the wolves, and supply some Idahoans with meat also. I only want one elk a year, one wolf needs one per month. To destroy hunting the pro wolf side is willing to destroy more wolves than the management of wolves would kill. The bottom line is both sides kill wolves. And to many wolves destroy the family type fabric of individual elk herds by wiping them out. I hunted the Archie Mountain elk herd for twenty years, harvesting ten elk out that herd over that time, then the Archie Mountain wolf pack arrived on scene. The Archie Mountain elk herd is completely wiped out. The resident bears and cougars are gone as well. The bobcats are gone, the wolverine is gone, the deer also.. And the Archie Mountain wolf pack is no longer here either.. No elk winter at the base of Archie Mountain any more.. I still do though..Nice natural " balance " now..
" Another area that suggested itself for reducing wolf numbers to benefit caribou was the treeless arctic slope of Alaska's Brooks Range. Wolves existed there in large numbers, and caribou had decreased alarmingly. In March, 1952, the Fish and Wilflife Service organized an aerial wolf hunt there. Seven predator agents in the territory gathered at Umiat on the Colville River, our main base, with three airplanes. We killed 161 wolves in the first three weeks. By May wolf numbers had thinned and we were only killing three or four per day. To my knowledge, it was the largest scale wolf hunt ever conducted in the United States, and with the possible exception of modern Russia, probably in the world. The results ? There were still plenty of wolves on Alaska's arctic slope. Wolves are among the most prolific of Alaska's animals and those that survived our hunt soon repopulated the area.. By the time the wolf population had rebounded, caribou numbers had also dramatically increased." ---Frank Glaser--Alaska's wolf man.
Bullshit walks when history talks..
Add the "Salmon Zone" to your list as another area whose wild ungulate population has been decimated by wolf predation. I live year-around inside the National Forest in Idaho's Area 21, and can state with absolute certainty that the Elk population in this zone has dropped by over 50% in just the last five years. As was commented by you earlier, the forest is "sterile."
A National Forest road runs through our property not far from our home, and during this past season only a single bull came out in the back of a truck. More than that and as much as "opening day" was not exactly welcomed by me due to the traffic interrupting our normal serenity here, what a change from the past! In contrast to the formerly "normal" traffic of 30-40 vehicles lumbering up the road before daylight, this year it was a mere 5.
The place has no elk population to offer the hunting public and Lemhi County is suffering dearly as a result.
Certainly the red riding hood rhetoric about these being a "different species" of wolves than "native wolves" is ridiculous, although clinal differences are likely across the geography of the wolf's range. Also, the vast majority of hunters were not coming home with an elk before the wolf was reintroduced and using it as an omnipresent reason for hunting failure is wrong. There are cascading effects on the ecosystem from wolves, some of which are positive and some of which are negative, depending on the species and ecosystem you're in and the case specific facts.
No disrespect intended, but your "scientific" observations ("can state with absolute certainty") are anything but: I know both of you probably dispute IDFG's survey efforts, but they spend way more time, effort, and money to systematically count elk (and wolves) than either of you, so I would tend to believe the data rather than your speculation ("The Archie Mt. elk herd is completely wiped out"- come on!). Yes, there may be fewer elk in the areas you mention, but RMEF came out with news a few months ago stating ID's overall elk population was higher now than it was 25 years ago (and I bet they got this information from IDFG surveys). Are they full of crap, too?
You all have had some thoughtful comments. Keep in mind that in any essay one can't mention all the qualifiers and exceptions, and the same is true for what I have written. But let me address a few issues.
There are several things going on with wolf predation. I never said that wolves would not affect prey populations. What I said and seems to be acknowledged by one of the commenters is that predators can shift animal use and cause periodic declines in populations.
The Minnesota hunting example where wolves are not hunted, and are at much higher numbers than in the Rockies, and hunting has not disappeared is important. Sure there are places where deer numbers are in decline for some time, but in the state as a whole, there is still plenty of hunting.
The same is true for Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. There are places where elk and deer numbers have declined, but the states as a whole have surplus animals. The overall report for all states is that elk populations are at or near objectives and only a few units are below what is considered ideal.
As to make that point I bought two surplus deer hunting tags this past fall for units near Bozeman that has been occupied by wolves since the 1990s and there are still enough animals for the MDFWP to sell extra tags, including elk tags. But just down the road is another area where elk numbers have declined significantly. Which makes the point that predation effect is highly nuanced and even areas more or less side by side can experience different consequences as a result of predators.
And for those in Idaho, I have hunted elk on and off in Idaho for the past ten years--all in occupied wolf territory including in the Boulder White Clouds, mountains north of Challis, the Caribou Mts. near Gray's Lake and elsewhere. Our party never failed to see and kill elk. 'I was not able to join the hunt this year, but our party--hunting in the Lemhi Mountains south of Salmon, Idaho--also killed elk. So while elk numbers may be lower than in the past, it just requires more effort to hunt--something that perhaps a lot of hunters are unwilling to do.
I believe that those who want wolves managed start with an assumption that wolf predation is not acceptable if it means fewer elk and deer for hunters.
That is one assumption I'm trying to call into question. The elk and deer do not belong to hunters. Hunters don't have ownership of the prey animals. And legally Fish and Game departments should be considering all citizen's desires about wildlife. And the general public likes predators and wants more of them.
And the occasional decline in prey populations whether due to wolves, harsh winters, fires or whatever cause, is actually a necessary culling of these herds so other species s can flourish. And wolf populations are the same as other animals and will expand and drop depending on prey abundance, disease and other factors. We have seen this in Yellowstone, Glacier area, Isle Royal in Michigan and so forth, where wolf populations have expanded and then declined.
This results in a shifting mosaic of prey abundance and prey declines that gives plant communities a chance to recover, as well as other species that may benefit such as the example, I mentioned of pronghorn fawn survival that is increased in the presence of wolves.
One of the problems I see with modern wildlife biology is that it suffers from the same mentality that characterizes foresters with relation to forests, engineers with rivers (dams) and so forth. It's the idea that we can have a steady stream of elk, deer, wood, water or whatever by minimizing the natural oscillations that occur.
However, my main point is that hunting wolves may result in unintended consequences and increases in conflicts.
As for the idea that wolves that are hunted are more fearful of people, there is no doubt that animals may learn they are being pursed. Obviously elk move on to private ranches to at least avoid the human activity that comes with hunting as just one example of learned behavior.
But who is supposed to be the smartest animal here--us. And we know that we can protect livestock with many different techniques that research has shown significantly reduces livestock losses. But ranchers do not want to "learn" to use these techniques because it means changing "their" behavior.
The other major point is that state agencies do not acknowledge that hunting may have many intended consequences for the very reason that they are rely upon hunting license sales to fund their operations.
As someone once said, it's difficult to educate a person who's livelihood depends on not understanding something.
The winter ranges tell the tale, the herds and the snows don't lie. I've traveled to the Southern Idaho wintering ranges consistently for thirty plus years, observing elk herds, glassing antlers, and eventually collecting antlers. Most winters I will put on 800 snow machine miles, and 10,000 miles on the truck..
It is known that IDFG examines five units every five years and bases their findings, estimations on that data. To expect this type of data finding to extend beyond those five units to a statewide estimation cuts no ice with me. The department was recently shown up for presenting 16 year old data, concerning elk numbers.. Neither IDFG nor the boot licking politically correct RMEF have any credibility with this hunter. I stopped associating with RMEF in the early 90s..
Let us not forget IDFG is a business, and to show data not representative of a good opportunity to have a chance at harvesting is not good for business..
I did harvest elk as well. Even at fifty one I am considered to be in amazing physical condition. With bow and backpack I hunted the rifle season and killed a bull.. After leaving my boned out meat in a tree, all of it, my return trip on foot with mule to recover the meat took three days..
Most people have been removed from the possiblity of harvesting during the hunts, I personally think this is unfair. Crippled vets, senior citizens, and youth hunting is just that, hunting for nothing.
I'm not fooled. The Sawtooth Zone does not become this over predated by wolves without the surrounding units being involved. If I want to know what lives in unit 39, I travel to unit 43-44 and the lower portion of 39 near Boise and Mtn Home in winter. The Same goes for units 25-26-27, I go to unit 33.. And right on down the line.
In other words I see their data, but I don't take their word for it. I go hunting for evidence. That evidence is not standing on winter ranges where it was once very obvious.. And knowing these mountains like I do, the evidence in question has no other options. Move to low ground or die. Winter snows don't lie.
The situation in Yellowstone is anything but good with the elk becoming extremely scarce. The early road builders remarked on thousands of elk migrating south in the fall, taking hours for all of them to pass. You enviros fixed that didn't you?
http://www.safariclubfoundation.org/predator/predator/14-PredatorPreyManagement.pdf
The Study is very worth reading and here’s a grocery list of some of what is discovered:
1. Wolves destroy 90% of the elk populations.
2. Elk slaughter by wolves increased in proportion to the severity of the winters.
3. 60% of the elk stopped migrating.
4. Wolves destroyed 56% of moose populations and nearly eliminated calf recruitment
5. Wolves decimated woodland caribou, bringing that species to ultimate extirpation.
6. Wolves stole 57% of prey kills by grizzlies
7. Any attempt to manage ungulate numbers anywhere near pre wolf times is a “fantasy”.
8. Increasing quality habitat for elk had no effect on increasing numbers with wolves present.
9. To begin replenishing ungulate populations, wolf numbers need to be reduced every year by at least 70%. The reduction has to be ongoing, forever.
10. Wolf hunts utilized to control wolf populations are ineffective.
Conclusion; If states choose to replenish wolves, there will be no hunting left. Wolves will destroy the ungulate populations and we’ll have more singing birds flitting about the vegetation normally eaten by ungulate species.
Comparing Canadian data to USFWS and IDFGs data, and visually seeing the results, The Canadian data best represents the result we have here, in Idaho..
I know Mark H. and others who participated in the study you cite. And there is nothing inconsistent with what I have said and what was reported in that study.
One thing to keep in mind, however, that may influence the Canadian findings is the topography. As you may know the Canadian Rockies are extremely rugged and steep. There is not a lot of winter range, and what winter range that does occurs is limited to the same valley bottoms where nearly all human activity is also located including the Trans Canadian Highway, Trans Canadian Railroad, and communities like Canmore and Banff.
Thus the dramatic declines witnessed in Banff may not be applicable to other locations. That said, the author of the paper you placed above notes all the same positive ecosystem changes resulting from wolf predation and reduction in elk including greater food for scavengers, greater aspen and willow recruitment, more songbirds, and beaver. These habitat changes may be necessary for long term ecosystem health, and the influence of wolves is critical to creating these conditions.
As for carbiou decline, that is part of a long term decline that has been on-going for decades. I first saw caribou in Banff in 1971 and even back then, the herds were in decline for a host of reasons, including logging, oil and gas development and other habitat quality issues outside of the park which affected the overall caribou numbers.
The point of that comment is the same as for other noted declines in prey such as the Lolo Pass area (another area I know well) where regrowth after the 1910 fires have reduced habitat quality. Just as with caribou in Banff, elk in the Lolo Pass area were already in decline prior to reestablishment of wolves. Now wolves may exacerabate the decline, but in general prey living in high quality habitat can maintain their numbers in the face of predation pressure. Marginal habitat quality leads to declines whether there are predators or not.
Do you get that Marion Dickinson? Elk and deer DO NOT BELONG TO HUNTERS.
The spread of brucellosis is generally the result of elk. A recent paper that looked at brucellosis found the majority of recent outbreaks in livestock were attributed to elk.
As for CWD. One of the benefits of wolves and other predators is that they can reduce the effects of disease by quickly dispatching infected animals, thus reduce the spread of disease.
Of course the big problem in Wyoming are the feedgrounds which concentrate elk and facilitate the spread of disease.
Studies comparing infection rates in Montana vs. Wyoming show a marked reduction in brucellosis among Montana elk vs. Wyoming elk which is presumed to be the result of Montana's policy of using natural winter range instead of feedgrounds.
I know. I think we have different wolf predation results between the three states due to differences in terrain/topography. Idaho is not unlike the Banff study. If so then it kinda blows the YNP eco system theory up..
Paul, I don't hate wolves, that would be a waste of energy. If the hunting community funded game management which built up herds of ungulates, preserved other species such as wolverines etc. etc. And provided funding via a federal account from excise taxes, and used those funds for the wolves themselves I think they have every right to voice their opinions. Especially when the large cuts concerning hunting opportunity were not mentioned at the starting gate of introduction.
Telling us to go away and shut up cuts no ice with me.
http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=5957
"For these reasons, wildlife managers should consider an animal infected if blood tests indicate antibodies for the disease, the report says. Up to 40 percent of the approximately 2,000 bison in Yellowstone -- and as many as 77 percent in the Jackson, Wyo., herd -- have tested positive for brucellosis antibodies. Of the 120,000 elk in the greater Yellowstone area, 37 percent of those that frequent winter feeding grounds test positive. Only 2 percent of elk that do not use feeding grounds test positive."
I do not believe there is a feed ground near Meeteetse, nor one close to whre the Montana herd became infected last year, nor close to Turner's buffalo herd that just tested positive.
The elk herds are severely diminished in the area by the wolves. Wildlife is generally considered to belong to the state where they reside, at any rate hunters will quit buying licenses when they can no longer harvest ungulates. We can be 110% certain that enviros are not going to invest one penny in restoring the populations.
Thsi link has a list of times brucella remains viable:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QQFDHBpNnTQC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=brucella+viability&source=bl&ots=WjNEtjUE3B&sig=fvZM4NhrLsaC2ZWZTnhCNd5bxm8&hl=en&ei=9wTfTO74G4u4sQPe98XrCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBoQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=brucellaviability&f=false
Direct sunlight 4.5 hours
Dry soil 4 days
Moist soil 66 days (what does that tell us about the chance fo picking up infections along the river bank?)
water...drinking 40-150 days
polluted water 30-150 days
Not sure what you mean by suggesting Idaho is similar in topo, etc. as Canadian Rockies.
I would suggest that Idaho is far superior to Canadian Rockies for elk. It's not that surprising that Alberta and BC has far smaller elk herds than further south. The harsh winters up there really restricts elk distribution. One could argue that elk are confined to more marginal habitat up there.
Idaho, by contrast, has a lot more winter range. Milder climate. And less snow in many area occupied by elk than most of Alberta. It is really colder up in Canada.
Interestingly the biggest elk herds are in Colorado which is not what one would expect given the fact that there is far more development in Colorado than say Wyoming, Montana or Idaho.
I have never been able to account for this other than the fact that the climate is generally milder in Colorado. But that is pure speculation.
The former consider predation to be an ecological process and essential to the ecosystem . Therefore, wolves are necessary . It can certainly be argued that in the 75 years since wolves were exterminated, management of ungulate species ( primarily as a farmed huntable crop ) pretty much went off the rails. Don't let the numbers of elk out there decieve you. It's not about numbers, it's about populations and balance.
The latter group, those opposed to wolves, use the definition of Predator that better suits lawyers and accountants , not scientists. It's the economic definition of predation ---that a predator is a cost and an economic impediment. This definition treats wolves , coyotes, etc as a cost of doing business factor by virtue of being a nuisance animal or varmint.
Money has almost no defensible role in wildlife management. It is the primary factor in nuisance animal predator management.
Both the extremist views about wolves need to use both definition all the time, not just the definition that suits them or the circumstance that fits their ideology. Ecologists/ conservationists / wolf advocates need to stand their ground that wolves are wildlife, but be willing to accomodate the economics of wolves to an acceptable ( read: sustainable) level.
Wolf Haters need to quit branding all wolves everywhere are nuisance animals and a threat to their livelihoods or sport hunting, and accept that wolves have a role as wildlife, too.
If both sides cannot take both views, resolution of Grey Wolf management in the northern Rockies has nowhere to go.
Coming from the hunter side, I am asking that the wolves be managed to a population that is in balance with prey to sustain healthy populations of ungulates. It is not in balance with the current state of wolf population.
the enviro's and wolf lovers state that we need to let nature take it's course and man needs to be uninvolved,..well, that is a huge mistake as the human population, naturally, has progressed and the encroachment upon nature/wilderness requires us to "manage" our remaining wilderness and wildlife. This means managing wildlife at a level that will enhance the health of the species to a level that matches predator to prey ratios. Not to mention Predator to predator ratios as we now see that due to the wolves introduction, bear and human encounters have increased. Bear wakes up in the spring,..no carrion to feed off of, limited calves and fawns due to down populations of ungulates as well as the wolves have already got'em. Fall, comes along and the bears are in a frenzy to put weight on before the hibernation begins. The bear needs to feed and will find the most easily available food source, which this year it seems to me, no research done, but the reports of bear and human encounters have increased. Talking encounters in human habitat.
to sum this up, it is a fact that human progress requires us to manage what is left of our wilderness and wildlife. Allowing the Wolves to be unmanaged, especially a species in which the population is increasing at a +24% rate annually and is NOT endangered, will alter negatively everything that we have done for wildlife. If you really want to see the population of wolves increase,..please let us know where you live and we will start a fund to relocate some wolves to your neighborhood,..or should I say your condo and gated communities.
When I made that trek and drive last Friday, with 4 or 5 inches of fresh snow on the ground and roads...I came across a grand total of 8 or 9 sets of deer tracks. Not one elk track...and not one moose track. However, I did see a half-dozen sets of wolf tracks...two of which were following the tracks of a doe and her fawn. (Note: That one fawn track is the only fawn track seen all day.)
I also crossed the tracks of one large mountain lion.
So...is this the mythical balance you wolf lovers seek? If it is, then I say forget hunting wolves...and start eradicating wolves - using any method possible.
The wolves here may be slightly different than the wolves in Alaska...across much of Canada...in northwestern Europe...and in Russia - but they are still wolves, and they certainly do not follow the script greenie wildlife researchers keep on try writing for them. Stop watching old Walt Disney films or reading the fictitious novel "Never Cry Wolf", and read something with more than 20 years of research (from the studies of Russian wolf scientists) - Will Graves' book, "Wolves in Russia - Anxiety Through The Ages".
This book takes a look at what lies ahead, unless we take control of wolf populations here right now. Without any wolf control during WWII, with the soldiers all fighting Nazi troops on the front, wolf populations in Russia exploded - to more than 250,000. With so many wolves, as many as 1,000,000 head of livestock was lost annually (starving a starving populace even more). Likewise, one of the great Siberian reindeer herds that numbered more than 500,000 was decimated to fewer than 150,000. Following the war, the Russians had to fight another war - against the wolf. In 1946 alone, government wolf hunting brigades culled 62,600+ wolves. In fact, during the 10 years following the war, more than 516,900 wolves were killed in Russia - and they still did not gain full control. Through the 1970s and 1980s, as many as 30,000 to 40,000 wolves were culled each and every year.
And the cost of such "Wolf Control" has been $35- to $45-million annually.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
We are helpless to save the Yellowstone herds and of course when they are gone, the grizzlies, but the states themselves must have the ability to salvage something outside of the NPs.
Your experiences only confirm what I am trying to suggest--the presence of predators can have a positive impact upon excess elk, deer, and other ungulates. We need periodic reduction in big game numbers to benefit other wildlife.
The current system is skewed towards production of species favored by hunters. It is not ecologically informed management.
You might have to hunt in another place for a while. You might actually enjoy getting to know another place.
What "my expereince" (and very similar experiences by hundreds of others who have e-mailed me this fall) confirm is that there is no "natural" balance in an ecosystem where wolves are allowed to populate and expand their range uncontrolled.
And that is exactly what has happened here.
When I stated that the environment I walked last week was sterile...I mean strerile. Not only did I fail to see any elk tracks in
the snow...or any moose tracks...and very, very few deer tracks - what else was missing were tracks of smaller game - namely rabbits and grouse. I saw no rabbit tracks, only a couple of sets of grouse tracks...and only one grouse.
In the 25 or so miles I covered on foot and slowly in my truck - it was extremely evident that the game was gone.
And you feel this is good?
Management is skewed toward species that are beneficial. Despite what you state here and in the article...wolves have no beneficial reason for being here.
Man is not going to simply disappear to please the greenie groupies who want all of the Earth to return to being totally wild. After all, we are an animal too, and we have evolved just like all other animals. And, like wolves that have absolutely no qualms about killing their own (even their own offspring) to eliminate competiton for food sources, we are ready to kill wolves to protect the beneficial species of wildlife which can be very succssfully managed (yes, by man, the intelligent mammal that walks upright) to insure a harvestable and renewable resource.
As for how Missouri receives funding, the sale of hunting permits is still their No. 1 source of funds. No. 2 is a 1/8 of 1-cent sales tax that is imposed on every container of bottled drink sold in the state...and while that money is used to support all wildlife, the majority goes to purchasing additional wildlife management areas for public hunting. I lived in Missouri for about ten years, mostly while working as the Public Relations Manager for Bass Pro Shops - where part of my job was working with conservation programs and with game departments.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
Don't you think the sale tax funding scheme was a positive change for Missouri--buying land for wildilfe is a good thing? Even though license fees may still fund the agency, that does not mean other funding mechanisms could not be increased.
Anyway, I think ideas like that need expansion and could help to fund wildlife agencies.
As for your own experiences, I can't deny them. But I have many different experiences in wolf country from you. I have hunted for the past decade in the heart of wolf country and never experienced the absence of game and/or game sign.
I am not invalidating your experience, but just suggesting that it does not apply universally to all areas with lots of wolves.
Plus as I argue periodic reductions in game animals is a positive thing for vegetative communities. If you take a holistic viewpoint on these issues, one can not deny that managing for abundant big game in all places at all times is not a good strategy from an ecological perspective. It is exactly the kind of management that Aldo Leopold, the father of Game Management, called into question in his essay "Thinking like a Mountain."
I would make the analogy to a river. Rivers benefit from floods, though many engineers try to eliminate the extremes in flows. However, we have found in places where dams now restrict high flows there are fewer cottonwood and willow. There are fewer beaches. There is more sediment covering fish eggs, and so forth. Floods are a good thing, though they may inconvenience fishermen, adjacent land owners and so forth.
However, just as a river does not experience a severe flood every year, predation does not affect big game everywhere at every time.
Again i would ask you to consult Minnesota's Fish and Game web site where they brag about the 150,000-200,000 deer shot each year, despite the presence of well over 3000 wolves. Or take a look at California where cougar hunting has been outlawed for decades, and you will find that there are still deer and elk roaming the Golden State.
Your personal experience can not be generalized to states as a whole. As I suggest, perhaps you need to either learn to be a better hunter or perhaps go someplace to hunt where there are fewer wolves--and every state has these places.
You stated..."You might have to hunt in another place for a while. You might actaully enjoy getting to know another place."
Hey man, I always enjoy hunting "other places". This fall, I've also spent time on the Montana side of the Bitterroots...along the east slope of the Mission Mountains north of Seeley Lake...and on east of Lincoln. Guess what, the game is gone there as well. But I always managed to find quite a few piles of wolf scat - most of it filled with elk and deer hair.
Face it, you guys have been trying to make up all new wolf management as this disaster has gotten worse and worse. And it has gotten worse and worse because you and others like you really don't know squat about wolves. Ed Bangs' USFWS Environmental Impact Statement is filled with lies and false claims - and THAT 414 PAGES OF HOGWASH missed the very negative impact of wolves here by several country miles. Likewise, the Northern Rockies Recovery Plan, drafted by our own disingenuous Dr. Robert Ream and other new-wave greenie biologists, is also riddled with "facts" that the wolves have proven wrong. And greenie groups like Destroyers of Wildlife have even been attempting to hold backdoor, under the table negotiations with game departments - in order to hang on to their "Cash Cow"
Equal Access to Justice Act. And this is just a small part of the lies, deceit, fraud and theft that plague this entire fiasco.
Perhaps it's time for good ol' lil' Donnie Molloy to get off his derriere and go after all that is wrong and illegal about the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery Project...or does he too have a different agenda? If so, what is his incentive?'
A lot has surfaced in the past year or two...and there's a lot more to this iceberg than what meets the eye. Things are going to just keep getting more and more interesting - as more and more of the lies and false claims are exposed.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
Bob Ream was my advisor when I studied wildlife biology at the U of Montana. Great guy.
That's the lesson I've learned from thirty years of working and living in the woods. In Northeast Oregon, at least once a year, is an article in the local newspaper about someone who reports that they had to kill a mountain lion with their rifle because the mountain lion was stalking them. Never, never has there been an article about somebody being stalked by a mountain lion who doesn't have a gun.
It would certainly make for a much better article if somebody reported they had to fend off a stalking mountain lion with their pocket knife, or with a stick, or rock. The only conclusion that I can come up with is that mountain lions will only stalk people with guns. Be safe in the woods and don't carry firearms.
Somewhere earlier in this comment section, someone accused you of cherry picking your points.
Yes, Minnesota does have "at least" 3,000 wolves. Actually, the sportsmen of that state feel it is more like 4,000 wolves. And that would account for the drastic drop in the deer harvest where those wolves are found. Last year (2009), hunters took upwards of 60 PERCENT FEWER deer in the counties where wolf numbers are the highest.
The same is now happening across northern Wisconsin and in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan - where wolves have decimated deer populations.
You failed to mention this.
Wolves are not the sanitarians of nature...they are destructive predators that must be controlled.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
I figured Bob Ream may have been involved with moulding your view of wolves.
It shows.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
Yes hunters do pay the bulk of state agency funds at present, but that should and must change in the future. I would certainly support greater wildlife funding--but not to kill more wolves or stock exotic species like pheasants, etc.
Secondly,regardless of who pays for management (most of which I think wildlife would be better off without) wildlife does not belong to hunters. Wildlife belongs to all citizens whether they pay for its management or not-just as public schools are open to all students regardless of whether their parents pay the bulk of the costs or even no costs at all. Schools are "managed" for all citizens. Ditto for wildlife. And the more equitably we spread the funding for maintaining wildlife in our lives, the better. So I definitely would love to see other ways of funding wildlife conservation beyond the sale of hunting and fishing licenses.
a little backround on toby bridges
You can quit beating that horse to death...Savage Arms has officially ceased production of the rifle.
Seems that, with 9 or 10 of the rifles exploding and injuring shooters, it has gotten too expensive for them to spend all of that time in court.
I was just glad that I could help get this dangerous product off the market.
For those interested...here's why ol' Jeffie Boy is off the mark here...as usual...go to this link:
http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/
And scroll down to the two "Muzzleloader Alerts" links on the menu of articles and reports.
Toby
http://lobowatch.com/KillinTime2.html
Any thoughts on this?
I don't post that in reference to savage arms; I could care less.
I post it as a very succinct insight to your character. And it speaks volumes.
If you could not locate any elk, you should hook up with ol' saveelk.
seems you two hunt about the same
Seriously? Mountain Lions only attack people with guns???
Maybe you should check out http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm
2010-3 attacks (babysitter walking home, man working on his house, man hiking)
2009 - 7 attacks (man walking on road, 3 year old picking berries with her mom, 7 year old boy hiking with family, man while camping, man while cutting wood at vacation site, 5 year old boy while hiking with family and a 7 year old while sledding with his sister)
2008 - 6 attacks and 1 death (10 year old boy playing in the sand, 5 year old while hiking with family, man attacked and killed 60 yards from his home, 11 year old boy playing hide and seek in his yard, man hiking, woman checking on her dogs barking)
None of these people were carrying guns.
Here is what has happened to a few areas where the wolves have been introduced.
Lolo Elk Herd, Idaho Before Wolf Introduction: 20,000
After Wolf Introduction: 1,700
Yellowstone Elk Herd Before Wolf Introduction: 20,000
After Wolf Introduction: 6,500
Jackson, WY Shiras Moose Before Wolf Introduction: 1,200
After Wolf Introduction: 120
Gallitan Valley Elk Herd Before Wolf Introduction: 1,500
After Wolf Introduction: 200
This is extreme predation, beyond control.
Extreme predation on adult elk females and calves means not enough calves survive to replace the adults that die each year. Is this what you want? Do you dislike elk and deer so much?
look beyond the tree (errr,...I mean latte') in front of your face and view the forest.
...
God makes it clear in Scripture that deaths of people and livestock at the hands of savage beasts is a sign that the land is under a curse. The tragic thing here is that we are bringing this curse upon ourselves"
Toby, Todd, MtMuley, BS, etc. if you actually got a rise out of reading those words above and truely believe man isn't the biggest and worst predator on this planet, please raise you hands and respond.
Inquiring minds want to know.
The Lolo herd has been in decline for decades. Even when I was in school at Missoula that decline was occurring and this was long before wolves. It is a consequence of forest over taking browse that was created by the big fires in 1910 and 1919.
Furthermore, there has been a tremendous amount of logging in that area, especially the Plum Creek lands, but also FS lands. The roading has reduced security cover for elk. As many studies have demonstrated, elk avoid roads and that in turn, also reduces available habitat. Habitat quality has declined.
And I recall there was some studies back in the 1990s (prior to wolves) that suggested that black bears were taking quite a number of elk calves.
This is not to suggest that wolves haven't contributed to the observed decline, but it would be incorrect to just blame wolves.
Regards Yellowstone, the 19,000 was seen as far too many elk. Back in the 1960s when the park service used to shoot elk, it was estimated that the carrying capacity for the northern Range was something like 6000 elk. I don't know what is the "right" number of elk here, but I would suggest that Nature does. And it lies somewhere between those two numbers. Keep in mind that wolf numbers have declined by a third from their high point, demonstrating that wolves do not grow endlessly. And there are a number of studies that demonstrate that the vegetative communities, particularly the riparian areas are seeing significant regrowth.
Such periodic respite from herbivory pressure is a necessary feature of natural systems and vegetative communities. Just as I suggested rivers need floods, forests need wildfire, continents need earthquakes, and so forth, all of these things are what keeps things working.
Finally the Gallatin Herd was in a similar situation as the Yellowstone herd. People for decades criticized the park for having too many elk in the Gallatin Herd. In many cases, the same people now upset with wolves are the same ones that said there were too many elk. In any event, there are a number of studies that document significant growth of aspen and willows due to the the decline of elk herbivory.
One more comment. This past year you could buy "surplus elk tags" for the Gallatin Range in the hunting unit south of Bozeman just over the mountains from the Upper Gallatin herd. This suggests that such declines are very localized and not a general feature of the landscape.
Your "nature's balance" went out the window when man walked across that land bridge from Asia some 20,000 years ago. But, then, it likely did not exist even then.
If you put all of your esteem in nature's balancing ability...then you must be in full support of the so-called Wild Lands Project...which is aimed at pretty much removing all human inhabitants from a sizeable corridor running from Alaska to Mexico, along the great Rocky Mountains. You know, to rid the land of the human element, and destroy man's infrastructure (i.e. cities, roads, bridges, power supply lines, etc.) .
As long as there are "us", we have to be factored into any "new balance". But, that is all part of natural balancing, always has been.
Take the wolf, for instance. It is not a native North American species either. Those wolves migrated here from Asia as well. So be it, maybe 400,000 years ago, well before man. Still in the "natural balance" you seem to seek, they are an invasive species as well.
I have hunted in Idaho off and on over the past 30 years...and know the Lolo unit very well. How much time have you really spent in that area?
I agree that more needs to be done to enhance wildlife habitat there. But you're wrong about the herd "declining for decades". It was actually doing quite well, and was quite healthy, before the idiotic transplant of wolves. What has killed the Lolo herd has been the loss of calf recruitment...due to wolves.
MT FWP kept on selling tags for a number of units even after the wolf impact was being realized. And when it comes to their elk numbers, who believes them any more? They sure can't count wolves, so what makes us believe they can count elk. I recently read a comment from an official from the MT Attorney General's office, in regard to FWP's ability to count wildlife populations. His remark was that they were accurate to within "+/- 100 percent."
I've also read a report that stated there has been no significant improvement of aspen growth in the Yellowstone area - even though the wolves have had elk populations in a serious nose dive for most of this decade. How many people do you think will keep on visiting Yellowstone when there are only beavers and willows to look at? Hey, don't those darn beavers destroy a lot of willows?
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
I started visiting the Lolo unit in 1970, about 4 decades ago. In fact the second day I was in Missoula to start college, I did a hike up the South Fork of Lolo Creek. I have subsequently spent a lot of time hiking, skiing, hunting, and camping in that Lolo area on both sides of the state line. In fact, I was there as recently as this summer, so I have a long association with the area. I might add that I also shot my first elk in that area.
One of the things NEVER dealt with is the fact there is no evidence at all of the huge herds of buffalo that now range in Yellowstone. The only actual evidence of poaching of them was Howell, who was arrested and even he apparently only got a dozen at the most. The native buffs were mountain buffalo, the imported (gotta fix soemthing before it breaks) buffalo were plains buffs.
The native buffalo inhabited Pelican Valley and were not even seen, only their tracks by the Washburn expedition. They had NO impact on the northern range until tehy were imported and planted. Then over grazing was interestingly blamed on elk. And like the plains buffs were imported to "fix things" so were wolves.
The wolves have been a huge money maker and power grabber for environmental "non profits" and researchers, transferring millions of dollars from our pockets to theirs, and confiscating private property as well as ungulates to feed them.
There are many out there that wish to eliminate all wolves, I am willing to have them managed to a balance of predator to prey as well as predator to predator. If they are not managed for optimum balance, this predator, the wolf, will decimate the prey in its area and then move onto the next area and the next and the next. Where will they go? cities, plains, further south along the Rockies? By comparing the Wolves of the past with the implication that they were in balance with nature back then and will be again is perposterous. As I said previously, nature is not the same as it was 100's of years ago, nor will it ever, therefore we need to assist nature. Turn the management of wolves over to the states. These animals ARE NOT endangered, look it up.
I correspond a lot with respected wildlife professors Dr. Charles Kay, of the University of Utah, and with Dr. Val Geist, of the University of Calgary.
Thank the Great Spirits Up Above that all of our wildlife academics are not of the same mind set. These two wildlife experts disagree wholeheartedly with any notion that wolves are good for the environment, that they are the sanitarians of nature, and are a cure for all that ails the wild world. More realisitically, they see the wolf as most of us who spend great amounts of time in the out-of-doors see the wolf - as an extremely destructive predator with one role in life...to kill.
We now have a new generation of wildlife manager/biologist who seems driven to rewrite wildlife conservation - which was doing just great before they came along. George sure skirted around the Wild Land Project topic didn't he? Well, if we think dumping those non-native and non-endangered Canadian wolves into the Northern Rockies really has anything to do with "wildlife conservation", these greenie geniuses have a project they would like to sell us. And that pipe dream is the so-called Wild Lands Project. Likewise, if we feel the devastation of our big game herds by wolves is a real disaster, excuse the English..."We Ain't Seen Nuttin' Yet!"
The goal of this greenie take over is to remove us from the land...to destroy our western lifestyle...force us into cities (outside of the Wild Lands Corridor)...eliminate ranching in the West...and simply turn a strip of North America that's roughly 4,000 miles long and maybe 500 miles wide into one great big wilderness - void of humans, and any sign of humans...with extremely limited access for humans.
Sounds crazy doesn't it? Well, it really is no more crazy than dumping wolves back into an ecosystem where a hundred years of real wildlife conservation had provided us with an abundance of big game and other wildlife - a renewable and harvestable resource which is now being destroyed.
We're now seeing how well "their" wolfie thing is working out aren't we?
And if we think the lies, deceit, fraud and theft used to shove wolves on us was bad...wait until they get started on the Wild Lands Project. Fact is, they already have started - and that's what the wolves here are really all about.
To everyone reading this...make it a point to read Will Graves' book, "Wolves in Russia"...and learn the truth about wolves, the wolf damage recorded in Russia over the past 150 years...the psychological impact of high wolf populations on people...the diseases carried and spread widely by wolves...the physical threats of wolves...the severely negative economic impact of wolves...the manner in which wolves can destroy livestock production...what it really takes to gain control (if possible)...and the cost of such wolf control. It's not a pretty picture.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WACH
and you hurt your cause more than help it.
How is Toby crazy ? It is because he mentions the Wild lands Project ? Is it because you have never researched the Project, plus United Nations Agenda 21, Sustainable Development ? The Earth Summit Agenda 21 - The United Nations Programme of Action From Rio ? - ISBN; 92-1-100509-4 United Nations Publications.. In depth research proves They have the intent to do exactly what Toby has said.. Will they pull it off, that remains to be seen..
http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/res_agenda21_28.shtml
The Wild Lands Project is a large part of this Agenda. I happen to disagree with U.N. think tanks deciding how the Nation I live in functions. The ideals expressed don't line up with the Constitution, nor the Declaration of Independence, nor Democracy where we the people are the ones who decide how to manage ourselves, lands, rights, and especially private property.
A Republican President ( Bush Sr) signed the treatise in Rio, and a Democrat President (Bill Clinton) issued and Executive Order which caused the actions of the Treatise to be installed in our States and County governments..
It appears to me the American people missed that vote.
I am amazed at how much credit you give the Wildlands Project. And how much fear the mere name seems to generate in some circles.
I suppose it will not surprise you but I was one of the original founding board members. Much of what you suggest was never advocated (like pushing everyone into cities, etc.) by the Project at any time.
Rather it was an intellectual plan that used the best science to come up with a mechanism that might stem the loss of biodiversity based on the idea that protecting large core areas (most of which already exist like Yellowstone NP) with corridors that link these together like a string of pearls across the landscape could potentially protect wildlife for the long term.
The plan was never going to be forced on anyone and it acknowledges that most of the landscape would remain in private ownership where it already exists. (Much of northern Canada is Crown land, thus public).
The idea is a suggestion not a mandate. If society wanted to maintain biodiversity, this is what might work.
It was not a UN plan or sanctioned by any government agency. But if the American people think that protecting biodiversity and future options is important than this is how you can accomplish that goal.
You need to go to the source and read what is proposed, instead of relying on what other people tell you is proposed and/or reading things into statements that are not there. http://www.twp.org/about-us
The ultimate objective is to convert as much as half of the land area of the United States to "core wilderness areas," which are off-limits to humans, with government management of most of the remaining land "for conservation objectives." This leaves only "sustainable communities" for people, which are described by Science magazine as "islands of human habitat surrounded by wilderness."
This scenario is not idle speculation. The plan is well documented in the 1,140-page U.N. publication Global Biodiversity Assessment, which names "The Wildlands Project" as central to the management scheme required by the Convention on Biological Diversity. The Wildlands Project, developed by Dr. Reed F. Noss, under contract with The Nature Conservancy and the Audubon Society, calls for "at least half" of the lower 48 states to be set aside as wilderness. Through an incredibly well-orchestrated campaign, hundreds of foundation-funded so-called environmental organizations, assisted by federal and state agency personnel are working to see that land is converted to wilderness, corridors to connect the wilderness areas are developed, and regulations are put into place to control the use of "buffer zones." Still, there has been no congressional debate or approval of this land management regime.
Of course non willing participants via economic strife willingly sell off private properties which conveniently end up in the right hands. Works well eh George ? Let economics win the war rather than a large scale brute force campaign.
As I said before, we'll see how far they get with it.. I can add that thousands have been removed from several rural area's in Idaho, and moved to cities seeking work..
I'll have to be surgically removed, ha ha. ;)
We believe you about the Wildland Project about as much as we NOW believe the lame brains who compiled the original recovery goals outlined in the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery Project.
Did you play a part in that big lie as well?
I encourage everyone to spend some time researching the Wildlands Project...it is a scam on the grandest scale. Hit Google, and type in things like..."the truth behind the Wildlands Project"..."official Wildlands Corridor maps"..."statements made by those involved with the Wildlands Project"..."goals of the Wildlands Project"..."who will the Wildlands Project affect most"...and similar search engine phrases.
George, if you indeed did have a hand in originating this idiotic plan, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Larix said I was crazy. Do some research and you'll quickly realize that ol' Larix is the one who's pretty much a full bubble off.
Hey Mike, for every action there is a direct and opposite reaction. Your type forces wolves on us...my type takes care of the problem. I hear the culling is going along quite nicely this fall.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
I just took your advice, and nearly all the google searches on the Wildlands Project were written by others and subject to their own spin and interpretation. I suggest again that you go to the Horse's Mouth and read what the Wildlands Project says itself.
Relying on Property Rights or Montana Multiple Rights or whatever is hardly going to the source anymore than one would want to listen to the Al Qaeda to interpret what the US policy and plans for the Middle East. Of course many in the Middle East only listen to Al Qaeda, but they present a distorted view of US policy just as these other groups are distorting and exaggerating what the Wildlands Project is about.
I was stating facts, not offering advice.
I must respectfully disagree with you..
Interesting how the U.N. Earth Charter, U.N. Earth Summit Agenda, U.N. Sustainable Development, and your Wild Lands Project objectives are fully in line with the goals and ideals enshrined in the constitution of UNESCO, ( United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.) Coincidence I suppose ? Yes, I've fully studied these claims and they are in fact the sources of many of the programmes being implemented into our "American " Society.. Believe it or not.. Approve of it or not, I personally do not approve of it.
If you do a blog concerning the issue I will be glad to go into greater depth, including Congressional Globes as evidence. However, I do not wish to change the direction of this topic, I'll be back soon with some habitat questions and remarks.
From the Missoulian: "Researcher Christina Eisenberg’s work shows that before wolves were killed out, about one in every six aspen trees grew to reach the canopy. When wolves were absent, perhaps one in 300 made it. Aspen ecosystems are considered some of the finest and richest songbird habitat on the continent, second only to river-bottom riparian zones. Remove the wolf, and you remove the songbirds. Remove the songbirds, and the bugs move in. Everything changes, top to bottom, right down to the dirt."
Mycologists report disruption in the fungal communities associated with aspen: the oyster mushroom, pleurotus ostreatus, is in steep decline. The saprophytic mushrooms often associated with human consumption are the most important bioremediators of toxins presenting on the Forest. Morels fruit after fires in mixed pine/aspen habitat to entice animals to deposit organic material; bison and elk will crawl on their knees and loll their long tongues for morels growing under dead-fallen pine trees. The suppression of fire threatens that relationship, too.
What if hunters were trained to administer specially-designed darts loaded with DepoProvera to chemically spay or neuter a cougar, or wolf, for a year, maybe longer?
Include a microchip to better track individuals. Encourage hunters to pay to manage wildfire through wildlife in a more holistic way.
Somehow, I don't think you are being real honest about the Wildlands Project.
Seems a lot of folks sure disagree with you. Could it be that you are truly a socialist? The Wildlands Project is a big part of the U.N. Agenda 21...and the goal of that idiocy is to pretty much destroy the rights of property owners...and to use one of our lame President's claims "to spread the wealth" around the world to eliminate poverty everywhere...and to "rewild America" by seizing around 50-percent of this country to insure the connectivity of "wild areas".
Kind of sounds like communism on steroids, doesn't it?
To all who have been following this shift in topic, from "George's World of the Wolf"...to the "Destruction of America by Greedy Greenie Environmentalists"...please do as George states...go and (try to) read the complete text of Agenda 21 at...
http://www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/index.shtml
Then, as I indicated, be sure to go to Google or any other major search engine and do the Googling I indicated in my earlier post. George and other greenie groupies DO NOT WANT YOU TO READ WHAT OTHER ORGANIZATIONS HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS PRIVATE LAND GRAB. The website of Property Rights of Montana is a great place to start.
Also, Google..."YouTube Agenda 21"...and "YouTube Wildlands Project".
Keep in mind, it was folks like George who outright lied to us about the wolves, giving us the old sales job that "the recovery goal was 100 wolves per state"...that "once the recovery goal was reached, wolf management would be turned over to the states"...that "wolves would have minimal impact on wild ungulates"...that "wolves only kill the sick and the weak"...that "wolves would not negatively impact our state's economy"...that "wolves would not pose any threat or harm to human inhabitants"...and one heck of a lot of other lies.
Listening to George, or any other over zealous greenie environmentalist defend the Wildland Project/Agenda 21 would be like listening to Osama Bin Laden 's take on peaceful coexistence with white infidels.
One take I've read on the Agenda 21/Wildlands issue went..."Agenda 21 elevates nature above man and is based in its entirety on socialist control mechanisms".
When you do some research, be sure to look at all those maps showing the Wildlands corridors...and you can clearly see the big land grab these would be World Dominators envision.
Sorry George, go sell you snake oil somewhere else.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
Toby, Todd, etc. still waiting for you to raise your hands on my last comment.
You made a comment? All I saw was a bunch of rambling.
Jeffie...Now if you could only show a spark of intelligence.
Nancy, want to hear something realy, really scarey...I use to fly on Air Force One...with a gun!!!
Toby
Is the Air Force One reference suppose to make me feel "tingly" all over or just fightened about how low security must of gotten, allowing someone like you onboard?
Probably doesn't take much to get you "tingly" all over.
I wasn't just "onboard"...I was actually in charge of the Marine Corps security detail when AF1 was on the ground when away from Andrews Air Force Base. You know, I too thought maybe my clearance was kind of rushed. In less than a month, I went from no security clearance...to a confidential clearance...to a secret clearance...to a top secret clearance...to a White House clearance.
Have you ever done anything of note in your life? It's hard to tell from the meaningless posts you make here.
Toby
I agree with you,..there is no balance,..without management. that is why I am advocating that wolves be managed to a level that is in balance with prey/predators. We have spent millions of dollars on habitat and wildlife, to allow one species (a predator no less) to be unmanaged is idiotic. you mention 7 billion people,..umm,.in the Rocky Mountain states of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming? there is a balance here, unless of course you are one of those anti-human and anti-progress followers. Managing the population of wolves will ensure a sustainable population of prey and other predators. It just boggles my mind that you and the other anti's would rather see populations of other species be wiped out for the sake of one species,..I find it odd.
yes, I love hunting elk, deer, antelope, pheasant, grouse, ect,..and yes, I will do what i can to ensure their survival so that my great great grandchildren will be able to enjoy our hunting heritage. I love all animals, except snakes,..don't like them.,...anyway, I enjoy the opportunity to observe bears, coyotes, elk, deer,..they all have their place but left alone in an environment that we have now, that we have dictated, yes,..we need to manage nature to ensure sustainable healthy wildlife and habitat.
Mike, Nancy, Heffie Jeffie, and even George who wrote the article we are commenting on have absolutely nothing when it comes to defending the entire Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery Project.
It is hard to defend a lie, especially one that has been carried through by nothing more than more lies...fraud...theft...and deceit.
With so much about the Wildlands Project now coming more and more into light...perhaps we now can better understand how a federal judge like Donald Molloy has been enticed to continue siding with environmental groups like the Defenders of Wildlife and the Center for Biological Diversity, and other groups who are strong supporters of turning much of northern Idaho and western Montana into a humanless wilderness - where wolves (and grizzly bears) can roam freely. Maybe some of the same incentives are why Montana Governor Schweitzer has remained pretty much spineless when it comes to this issue as well.
Hopefully, by now, many of the pro-wolf idiots understand we are not going to just lie down and let them steam roller over us.
But we do owe them a debt of gratitude. Their misdirected attempt to destroy this country through their greenie agenda is now awakening a public that will rise up and squash their stupidity.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
Thanks for opening my eyes to the ultimate agenda of these wolf lovers, anti-hunters & ultra greenies. It is too bad that a middle ground cannot be met, at least not with people that place nature above human life (except Nancy). It was pretty wild to see what took place here the past two days, a real eye opener as to the true agenda.
(posted on 2-25-2010 @ 11:07 am)
"The one thing that can be stated with 110% cetainty is that Toby Bridges is a proven and documented liar, thief, poacher, and wife beater. His word, written or spoken, is wisely taken with ah very healthy dose of skeptism and suspicsion, as it is most of the are likely to be a flat out lie. Toby has been fishing on the internet for a single photo of another blown Savage 10ML-II, besides the one he intentionally blew, in an attempt to exort myself and Savage Arms. If you think this is bravo sierra, I would be more than happy to display the e-mails and faxes from Toby Bridges's to back this up."
herve leger dress
herve leger dress
We have gotten very side tracked here in this discussion and you are missing my major point. You advocate management of predators. But my major argument is that the assumptions made by many state agencies and hunting groups that hunting will reduce conflicts may be incorrect.
At the very least state agencies need to explore that as a possibility--i.e. that hunting predators creates social chaos which leads to greater conflicts with livestock producers and perhaps even greater predation on elk and deer--the very opposite of what you desire.
The second point I made is that periodic reductions in ungulates like elk and deer has benefits for other wildlife such as songbirds, trout, beaver, pronghorn and so forth.
The evidence suggests that sport hunting of predators is not necessary to preserve either huntable populations of ungulates or to protect livestock. Though there is no doubt that predators can change prey populations and distribution, hunting isn't going to disappear.
Where art thou brain Romeo? Never been accused of any of what you are stating. The source of that post, Bill Ball or Greensboro, NC is kind of the same mindset as you. And that is, when you cannot defend what you say with facts, you simply try to discredit a person through personal attacks.
Fact is, Bill Ball stands to lose a great deal of money if the Savage 10ML II were to be taken off the market. His daddy devloped the design.
Truth is, Savage has now dropped the rifle from production...due to numerous rifles exploding in the same manner. It has gotten just too expensive (legal expenses and injured shooter compensation) for the company to keep on building the rifle. I know of at least 9 or 10 of the rifles that have exploded and injured the shooter. Just two weeks ago, I heard from an Oklahoma shooter (and received photos) who had one of the rifles blow, injuring his left hand. So...I have plenty of photos of exploded rifles. In fact, I will be the "expert witness" for several lawsuits, should they go to court.
But thanks for showing what little ammo you and other pro-wolfers have to fight the wolf battle.
When you can no longer substantiate all of the lies used to dump wolves into the Northern Rockies, all you have left is to revert to personal attacks. I'll weather your personal attacks, you are nothing compared to the personal attacks I received when I first blew the whistle on the dangerous Savage Model 10ML II design. And, I've kept the spotlight burning on that issue since late 2004...and as I predicted back then, more of the rifles would explode. If I know of at least 9 or 10, what's the real nubmer that Savage has paid off the kept covered up?
Enough that, as of last month, the company has ceased production of the rifle. And there will be more of these rifles fail, since there are about 40,000 to 45,000 of these flawed muzzleloaders still in use. Could the company remedy the problem? Sure, with a modification of the current breeching design. Will they? Probably not, unless ordered by a court to do so. To recall all of those rifles, fit many with a new barrel, retap the breech plug recess, and install a proper breech plug would easily set Savage back $10- to $20-million.
As for Bill Ball's claim that I intentionally blew up the rifle that exploded on me...there were about 20 Missouri conservation officers on the range at the time of the incident who can vouch for the fact that Ball knows about as much about how this rifle blew as Romeo does about wolves.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
History proves your theory wrong. Again, forget all of the malarky that Dr. Robert Ream pounded into your head. Forget trying to write a new script for the wolves we wrongly now have here in the Northern Rockies.
They are wolves, and will do as wolves do. And that means they will kill indiscriminately just about all things they consider prey...which is just about every other living animal. It has happened on islands off the Canadian and Alaskan coasts...and in many areas of Russia. In fact, they kill off so much game that it becomes impossible for them to subsist...so the wolves are forced to kill their own kind...move...or starve. To reverse the decline of the prey base means reducing the number of wolves...dramatically. Even your own Dr. L. David Mech has stated that it takes a 70-percent culling of a wolf population, annually over an extended period, in order to reverse wolf numbers to the point where prey animals can recover from a predator pit situation.
The Russians have proven that over and over and over again. When wolf control there dramatically pulled down wolf populations, game populations recovered and depredation of livestock was greatly lessened.
Do us all a favor...and stop experimenting your new wave wolf management theories on our wildlife resources. We are not the "Clan of the Gray Wolf"...we are not servants of the wolf...and we've grown sick and tired of those who place the wolf above all else.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
This Social Choas created by hunting of the wolves is a weak argument, seriously, you think that if we hunt a predator that they will lash out!?!? Comparing their actions to that of humans in a war zone?!?! Wow,...that is a typically pro-animal/anti-human stance of assigning human emotions and motivations to the action of animals,..isn't this Anthropomorphism?
I cannot find any legitimate scientific evidence that social choas will ensue upon the hunting of wolves or any predator. We have been hunting bears and mountain lions and there is no proof that livestock predation increased due to the lowering of predator population. naturally, there would be more opportunity for the predator to kill and consume its natural food, ungulates and other wild prey, as there would be less competition and a higher and stronger population of ungulates. I feel this arguement is very weak and has no scientific data to prove this agruement.
Mike; If you want to call my desire to hunt and the desire for future generations to hunt an agenda,..well I guess so. In your extremists mind, it is the cake and eat it too mentality. the hunting organizations that I am a member of and work for have in their mission the conservation of their "species" and habitat for that species. the work and monies that are applied to their mission positively effects all wildlife. We work closely with the federal and state agencies, in this way, all that is being done meets all federal and state laws and regulations. Your anti hunting agenda is one of "because I don't like it or do it, nobody should be allowed to". What we, hunters and our organizations, are asking for is the ability of the state to manage the wolves, simply to a population that is in balance with its prey and other predators,....what is the fear that you and the wolf lovers have in this,..you got your cake (re-introduction of wolves, yes, "Re-" as corrected by Mike earlier) but now you are unwilling to share. You are so set on your goal of protecting the wolf that you don't even care about any other species,..course this is part of the anti-hunting agenda,..eliminate the sportsmen prey down to a level that they are not allowed to hunt them and once again the anti's have their cake and eat it too! Unfortunately these same people are willing to destroy an entire ecosystem to reach their agenda.
Please, go back to your condo in NY or what other large urban center you are from. Leave the management of wildlife to those that know what they are doing. lastly, if you really love wolves that much,..please,.please join me in establishing a fund to re-introduce some wolves to your posh neighborhood.
you always want to side track the truth and talk about this rifle thing. how about the part that you are a "proven liar, thief, poacher, extortionist and wife beater". let's talk about that part. That is at least two sources, one a copyrighted article. With your propensity to file lawsuits like they were Halloween candy being handed out it would seem you would be all over that............unless it is all true. I myself caught you in a boldface outright lie right here on this forum not long ago. Remember that one Toby. the one you swore up and down about the "200 lb wolf" on your little immature website.
Maybe whoever is thinking you are some kind of "expert witness" needs to look into your character a bit more.
should not take long.
As for predators, it is pretty clear you are basically afraid of being in the same landscape. Not surprising for the coward that it is being increasingly shown that you are.
You can't even catch a cold. The comment I made was 175 pounds...with some maybe going even heavier. Do some research...I think since those days of your super slueth detective work...there has now been a documented 179 pounder taken in Alaska.
If anyone is the king of getting off topic...it has always been you.
So, do some sluething, and find a link or any evidence of me ever filing a lawsuit against anyone. You can't. But i have been called on a number of times to serve as an expert witness on muzzleloaders. You know, I have written 10 books on the topic of muzzleloading and muzzleloader hunting...plus more than 1,000 magazine articles...and I own and host the No. 1 muzzleloader hunting website on the internet.
Hey, Jeffies what are you an expert at...what are you known for...other than taking comment sections off topic?
Oh, by the way, LOBO WATCH is now being followed by about 4,000 people each and every week...and the traffic keeps growing. Seems there are a lot of folks looking for the truth when it comes to countering the lies of pro-wolfers such as you.
Again, here is another typical tactic of wolf lovers who don't have any real facts or any real ammunition to defend wolves...just a bunch of hogwash and misinformation.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
Read carefully how little Mikey commented about your last comment...
You are absolutely right...he is definitely a city dweller, and it shows.
One thing is for certain, he sure hasn't been in any of the mountains or woods in Western Montana...or maybe, just maybe, he really does not know what an elk looks like. Hey Mikey, here's a clue, they don't go "Mooo".
MTmuley...he's out of live ammo. He's only firing blanks now.
Toby
I still have the hard copies. time and date certified.
We can also still pull up that thread.
Perhaps you need some new reading glasses. No where did I say there were 200-pound wolves in Montana. What I said was that where the wolves that USFWS illegally dumped here came from, wolves of 175 pounds have been killed...and that heavier specimens are very likely to have been killed...since many hunters/trappers there do not bring out many unskinned animals. Most are skinned where or near where they were taken.
Mikey...in fact, I did help weigh one wolf in the Northwest Territories that tipped the scales at just over 150. And two other hunters brought in hides from wolves that they shot. And those hides were larger than the one that came off the wolf we did indeed weigh.
I guess you've never weighed a wolf. Heck, you've probably never seen a wolf in the wild...just at the zoo or on television. Probably not many running around the city block where you live.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
I am content with shooting my one elk a year, one or two deer, several pheasant, the occasional bear. I love the wilderness as I go out and hike, fish (ohhh is fishing bad too?) as well as camp. My most enjoyable moments are watching wildlife interact with other species. I like the taste of wild game, and it saves those poor cows, pigs and chickens,..species that may have pet names, from my freezer. Again,..falling on your deaf ears, I am for managing the wolf population for balance with prey and other predators. Wolves are not only hurting ungulates (yes, my beloved Elk and Deer) but they are also hurting Bears, coyotes, fox, wolverines, cougars, ect. Hate is such a strong word and I feel sorry for you that you have trouble with your emotions. Most hunters love wildlife, they donate back to their communities, environment and are law abiding citizens. There are idiots out there that do not respect wildlife, but I would bet that they do not respect anyone or anything, including themselves. The Anti-hunting element has such idiots as well.
Anyway, I am done with this blog.
My educated guess would be there's alot of self esteem problems going on in your life (parents alittle too rough on you growing up?) since it doesn't take much to set you off, criticizing and belittling people....... YOU don't even know.
Your website (which I wouldn't waste time visiting) must go along way towards stroking that bruised and battered "inner child"
You do realize (although for someone like you, it will be much later, or too late in the game, to actually comprehend) that there are entire species dying out, because humans are just to busy ripping up and tearing down whats left of the landscape to benefit OUR growing populations.
Got any words of inspiration in that direction Toby or is your mindset (encouragement, etc.) all about "gettin" that next big rack?" to hang on the wall.......... and DAMN THOSE WOLVES for interfering.
Have you seen all the hoopla over the 200 (well 197) pounder killed in Canada?
Nancy...
If that's your "educated guess"...then you're not very educated. So, I guess your answer to world's woes is to allow wolves to destroy all other living things.
Thought so.
Got to go...have a couple of days to get out and hunt. You Children of a Lesser God play nice and have fun. And for Pete's Sake...don't get run over by the Metro bus when crossing the city streets in whatever hell hole city you live in.
TaTa,
Toby
Forgot to throw in...on the evening news tonight (Missoula, MT)...two more wolves found dead here.
Whoever did it...good shootin'...reload and get back out there. Lots of targets of opportunities.
Toby
Keep spewing your bigotry and hatred, Toby . You keep the Pro-Wolfers well stocked with ammunition every time you shoot off your own mouth or deliver a blunderbuss of words on the forums. I can't believe you haven't been taken to the woodshed by your " peers" and told to tone it down about eleven notches.
Toby is so full of himself , though , I fear if he ever explodes all that bile , stomach acid, and pus will create an environmental disaster . Is Missoula ready with an emergency response plan and Haz-Mat teams for a toxic Toby tsunami ?
your just as crazy as toby, thanks for proving that.
Right wing nutjobs period.
I'd rather be just a little crazy that a whole lot stupid like Huey, Dewie, and Louie...I mean Mikie, Dewey and Larixie.
How about you?
Toby
PS - Mikie...the photo was not photoshopped. Other shots of the same hunter and wolf have already been published in several magazines. A 197 pounder. Nice try....well, not really. Just thought I'd say it. Well, got to get back out hunting...I think the deer will move just before the storm rolls in, and I have a hankerin' for fresh grilled backstrap. How about you, do you think the deer will move? Oh, I forgot, you're clueless when it comes to wildlife.
They're gonna remove us rom the lan...it already happened here in Idaho...the greenies are gonna take your property!
LMAO @ these right wing losers.
Consider this, for one to believe in either the left or right dogma, paradigm, one must take note of the National Deficit in the trillions, and one should wonder at the sanity of individuals clinging to either political dogma, which in the case of these two parties ruling this nation, there is not a dimes difference between the two.. I'll not take the bait and lower myself to your apparent pre-school mentality.. That would just be crazy.. That said, I will add this, there are many cases of economic strife forcing land owners to sell far below the real value of the property, most often environmentalist groups have been involved in the purchase, and then the resale of the property for a handsome profit, most often the government using tax dollars is the purchaser.. Klamath lake comes to mind, and then there is.... many others.
You leftists followers should write a book, you could call it, name calling, marginalizing others, catcalls, jeers and other ways to insult while hiding behind false intellectuality. Might be a best seller, maybe even get you out of debt, you know ? Debt is when you borrow using credit.. Best keep making them payments folks..
Now how does that go, " sticks and stones may break my bones.. Aw hell with it..
A quote from Maurice Strong ......
"isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse?
Isn't it our responsibility to bring that about?"
What do you support ?
It is time for the environmental groups and their woefully inadequate wolf philosophy of self management to fall to the ground once and for all, it will never work, has already failed.. And it is time to make adjustment's to the ESA which these same groups have abused, time to junk their rhetoric into the trash bin of history, time to take back our lands, forests, streams, and wild life from these small scale Hitlerian type anti hunting anti gun American hating crazies, who have nothing but name calling coming from their lips, because they have got nothing at all to validate their dogma..
But not you real mike... Don't cry...
y2y.net
The deer did move tonight...arrowed a nice, big fat doe for the freezer...one the wolves won't get.
Keep in mind, those who can't impress you with intelligence (fact & figures)...can only revert to trying to razzle-dazzle you with bull hockey! Well, that and personal attacks. They sure as heck don't have any "facts" that support the ignorance of the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery Project.
Larry...George tucked tail and ran many posts ago. History and facts say he doesn't know squat about wolves. And if you think he "nailed it"...neither do you.
http://www.lobowatch.com
The tide is turning...REAL Americans have had enough of the greenie hogwash.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
you want to force others to live according to your philosophy, dogma, religion.. We who oppose you only want you to go away, you are manipulated by fixed up sciences intended to control human actions which has only a slight bit to do with eco system health or management if at all.. Science is nothing more than group thesis, theory, idea, etc. etc.. Todays biologists are as accurate as the weathermen predicting future events.. Witch doctors at best mixing truth with falsehood for the agenda of human control and human thought alteration.
You guy's yourselves are constantly bitching about the dumbed down among us, yet you never take a hard look at who dumbed them down do you, you never want to consider that perhaps you have been delt a dumbing effect either.. Man is the most manipulated creature on this Earth.. Only a very small number of people really figure out what is going on, who is playing the game and screwing with humanity's heads. To assume it is all just coincidence is crazy. You can change the effects of being dumbed down, ignore the witch doctors and the banking cartel controlled political hacks.. And take charge of your brains, take your brains back from the liars, after all your mind is yours not theirs, and you know a mind is a terrible thing to waste. Figure it out now, or not, but count on this, you will figure it out later on..
Right wing fascist fake christian collectivist capitalists created the environmentalist movement you have bought into.. Their members of the Club of Rome.. Knights of Malta, Sovereign Millitary Order Of Malta, Bankers...
"Democracy is not a panacea. It cannot organize everything and
it is unaware of its own limits. These facts must be faced squarely.
Sacrilegious though this may sound, democracy is no longer well
suited for the tasks ahead. The complexity and the technical nature
of many of today’s problems do not always allow elected
representatives to make competent decisions at the right time."
- Club of Rome,
The First Global Revolution
"The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another
United States. We can't let other countries have the same
number of cars, the amount of industrialization, we have in the US.
We have to stop these Third World countries right where they are."
- Michael Oppenheimer,
Environmental Defense Fund
"Global Sustainability requires the deliberate quest of poverty,
reduced resource consumption and set levels of mortality control."
- Professor Maurice King
"A reasonable estimate for an industrialized world society
at the present North American material standard of living
would be 1 billion. At the more frugal European standard
of living, 2 to 3 billion would be possible."
- United Nations,
Global Biodiversity Assessment
These elite loons are crazy, and their very real..
In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
The real enemy then, is humanity itself."
- Club of Rome,
premier environmental think-tank,
consultants to the United Nations
Maurice Strong, a Canadian OIL BILLIONAIRE, was also the Secretary General of the 1992 United Nations Conference on Environment and Development in Rio de Janeiro where the unveiling of Agenda 21 occurred. He said,
“It is clear that current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class—involving high meat intake, consumption of large amounts of frozen and convenience foods, use of fossil fuels, appliances, home and work-place air-conditioning, and suburban housing—are not sustainable. A shift is necessary towards lifestyles less geared to environmentally damaging consumption patterns.” (1992 Rio Earth Summit --- Knight of Malta Maurice Strong--- The author of Agenda 21..
David Mech admitted he was responsible for resurrecting the " balance of nature" myth as a graduate student and wrote "Far from being 'balanced,' ratios of wolves and prey animals can fluctuate wildly - and sometimes catastrophically." He illustrated the necessity to dramatically reduce wolf numbers whenever their prey declined and Fish and Game agencies in the Northern Rockies promised wolf numbers would be carefully monitored and controlled if they were introduced.
umm actually you sound like the one resorting to name caling because your delusional right wing extremist dogma is laughed at by anyone with an ounce of intelligence.
Wow delta no one even said anything about anti-gun or hunting, you really shpw your triue colors.
A right winger calling people who disagree with him nazis..oh never.
delta you may just be the most dleusional, hateful, insane, lying right wing crazy out there.
Please just stay in Idaho your a bad american period.
Your the def. of a hypocrite, liar, bigot etc
Delta you rep. Idaho well
thx
the more you poach, the less of a chance you'll ever have to hunt wolves again. Same goes for proposing Shoot on sight/varmint status plans which are not sound predator management.
http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-scientists-significantly-publish-fake.html
Environmentalism is the pseudoscience aimed at "improving" the eco systems by self managed manipulation of animal species populations by animal species.. The experiment is intended to replace mankind's well established management system to sustain a resource for mankind, and wild predators.. It will be a failure of epic proportions with massive crashes of wild life.
Historical Facts, The most common definition of Sustainable Development given by its proponents is a statement found in the Bruntland Report, Our Common Future, released during the 1987 United Nations World Commission on Environment and Development: " Development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." Even the term " sustainable" must be defined, since on the surface it appears to be inherently positive. In reality, sustainable development has become a " buzz" term that refers to a political agenda, rather than an objectively sustainable form of development. Specifically, it refers to an initiative of the United Nations (U.N.) called Sustainable Development Agenda 21. Sustainable Development is a comprehensive statement of a political ideology that is being progressively infused into every level of government in America.. The Interior Department, the USFWS, USFS, State game departments are no exception..
Keep denying it, its not like any of us have any powers beyond playing keyboard commando anyhow.. Thats what really scares you self proclaimed god like leftist intellectual super minds, with no mental depth beyond preschool personal attack's..
"Excluding revolution, there are basically two ways to initiate the kind of sweeping change (Western Watersheds Project Executive Director, Jon) Marvel is seeking: politics or litigation---and he has clearly opted for the latter. In a one-party state like Idaho, there’s little choice, he says. Lawsuits may not be the ultimate answer, Marvel concedes, but they are an effective way to focus public attention on an environmental problem, bring about change and, equally important, increase the cost of noncompliance for violators. “There just aren’t any significant examples of environmental laws being enforced without litigation or threat of litigation,” he says."
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/the_guy_idaho_ranchers_love_to_hate/C619/L619/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+newwest/main+New+West+Network+Front+Page
Mail Western Watersheds Project a check.
Natural law as applied to humans is myth and superstition. The only inalienable rights are those that do not exist. Even the "right" to self-defense is codified.
marvels accountability is in the courts. If the law wasn't being broken he would not win. period.
on a side note I'm opening a contest for your next screen name.
I vote for honey wagon dickinson, due to the fact that the manure you spread is just non-stop.
"Wolves as a species aren't endangered"
Big whoop. Some of us care about individuals, not just species. I don't give a hoot for the fact that there are thousands of gray wolves in Canada; I still want to protect the ones we have here from killers whose only real motive, in many cases, is greed. Animals are not mere resources, and a form of management that ensures species don't disappear is not good enough. Animals are individual sentient beings that deserve our compassion and respect. While I don't have a problem with hunting as a means of food gathering, I oppose any hunting whose sole intent is human amusement or profit. I don't think that's worth the life of a wolf, deer, or what have you. And ultimately, killing wolves to preserve ungulates (for hunters) is hunting for human amusement, because we aren't going to eat the wolves and we have other food resources besides wild game. We could eat with a lower death toll, and when we can, I believe we should.
"Hunters have more of a right to say what happens with wildlife, because they pay for wildlife conservation"
No, they don't have more of a right. Hunters are required to pay for tags because hunters consume wildlife. Deer, elk, and moose belong to the general public; when you buy a tag for one, you're purchasing the right to hunt it from the rest of us. Since you get the benefit of consumptively using the animal, you pay to ensure that your consumption does not damage the wildlife population or the ecosystem. It's a fair trade. This doesn't give you a right to have the biggest voice in wildlife management, any more than patronizing a business gives you the privilege of ordering the owner to run his business a certain way. You can starve us for money by refusing to purchase licenses if you want, but buying licenses doesn't give you some sort of divine right to tell us what to do. It's also our decision whether we want to sell our wildlife to you or not. If we'd rather give deer and elk to the wolves than sell them to human hunters (who, again, are quite capable of finding other food sources, while wolves are not), that's our call. Hunters should have a voice in this sort of debate, but no more voice than any other citizen. Besides, pro-wolf people are quite willing to pony up money to care for wildlife, as evidenced by the dollars that flow into the various wildlife advocacy organizations. They don't give money to state game agencies, but there's a reason for that: they suspect that any money they gave would be used to kill wolves, not help them. So we end up with a vicious cycle: hunters fund wildlife management, wildlife management panders to hunters, other potential donors withhold their funds because management panders to hunters, and on it goes. If you don't think you're getting your money's worth out of your tag and license fees, support some kind of legislation to change the source of agency funding, because I think that's all that will break the cycle.
"If we don't hunt wolves, they'll just kill each other or die of starvation"
Intra-species conflict and starvation are two tools of natural population control, it's true. However, wolves also control their population in other ways. If an area has a large number of wolves and food is scarce, the wolves will have fewer pups per litter and may not even breed as often. If the area has few wolves (due, for example, to hunting pressure), the wolves have more kids in an attempt to get their population up. Hunting, as a method of population control, requires that you kill every individual that you wish removed. Natural population control allows some individuals to be removed by simply ensuring that they are never born. And when nature does kill, it prefers to kill the old or the weak, leaving the survivors with a better chance at life. Human hunting, in contrast, is more or less random, and may even select the largest and strongest individuals for death, since they make the best "trophies." I'm not convinced that this sort of "population control" would save any wolves from death by starvation. Killing one or two random individuals in a pack leaves them with fewer mouths to feed, but also makes it harder for them to bring down prey, so they might actually become MORE vulnerable to starvation, not less. Killing one of the stronger wolves in a pack also leaves them less able to defend themselves against incursions by other packs, and may result in the deaths of additional pack members at the teeth of other wolves. Take a look at this study, which suggests that wolf hunting is not compensatory and that human kills do, in fact, increase the total mortality rate: http://www.physorg.com/news205058936.html
"Wolves are horribly destructive predators"
I suppose any predator is destructive by definition, but are you really trying to tell me that wolves are that much worse than other top-level predators? Wolves eat about 10 lbs. of meat per day, which is comparable to the amount consumed by mountain lions. Grizzly bears can eat 30-40 lb. of food per day, some of which is meat. Outside Montana, Siberian tigers need about 20 lb. of meat each day, and great white sharks and killer whales can eat up to 500 lb. a day! What's so awful about wolves again?
And just so you know, I am not some greenie liberal city-dweller from the east coast. I live in Montana and my home is the tiny town of Fort Shaw, in the Great Falls area. I am currently attending MSU so I also spend a substantial amount of time in Bozeman. I'd be quite happy to see a wolf in either place; this is not a "not in my back yard" sort of thing. I also consistently vote Republican and hold a conservative position on most major political issues. I even watch Fox News. *Gasp!* However, I find the attitudes toward animals that my fellow conservatives generally express to be deplorable. I'm a big believer in the protection of individual rights, but I don't think we have the right to (ab)use or kill any and every animal we want, in any fashion, for any reason. In our mastery of the earth, we should conduct ourselves as caretakers, not tyrants, and I think the law should ensure that each human treats the lower forms of life around him with due respect. Such a position is not anti-human, it just recognizes the fact that other creatures have worth.
There is another " Todd who has frequented forums as a rabid anti-wolfer. He would be Todd Fross, and outfitter from Lander WY , but he seems to have turned tail in recent months. We don't hear much from him these days. That Todd is affiliated with www. savewesternwidlife.org , a rabid website whose vortex swirls around Scott Rockholm and his awful videos. I actually saw an article this summer that listed Rockholm and Toby Bridges as " the two most important weapons the West has in combatting wolves". That article was at the repulsive rhetorical blogsite that gets entirely too much bluster: Maine Hunting Today's " Black Bear Blog". Some serious self promotoin and fluffinfing up the flannel underwear going aorund....
The Two Todds were often confused. Interchangeable 4-letter words, too.
I'm going with the experts rather your novice wolf people and their rhetoric.
This is a critical point / issue at a critical time. as we approach HB 6028 being debated and voted sportsmen have to make 2 points to the public and Congress.
1. it’s not "sport hunting " or "blood sport" it's about harvesting meat. Food.
2. Jim Rearden, professor U. of Alaska "Wolves of Alaska" and Alaska's Wolf Man shows that;.
a. 85% of all ungulate mortality is due to predation.
b. only 3 to 7 % of ungulale mortality is due to human hunting with the vacillation due to weather conditions .
c. the remaining 8 % to 12% of ungulate mortality is due to accident and disease.
Rearden and Bobby Fithian , Executive Director of the Alaska Professional hunters Association also reminded us that the Alaska Department of Fish and Game has 60 years predator prey management and experience versus just 15 years "learn as you go " science in YNP and the State Fish and Game agencies.
Kurt Alt , Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks the Region 3 (Yellowstone Ecosystem ) senior supervising biologist, tells us that he has Will Graves book "Wolves in Russia " and is now reading it. I suggest that all the supporters of HB 6028 do likewise.
A wolf hunting season without the back-up of State Government control methods by any means necessary excluding poisons,will not protect the elk and deer herd growths by returning us to a positive cow to calf ratio, it will remain in the negative.
The crashing of all wild life would, and will continue. T.R. Mader, Val Geist, Charles Kay, Will Graves, Frank Glaser, and the records during the early Twentieth Century kept by USFWS files concerning wolf control in Alaska proves it, and the last 15 years proves these people were spot on with their claims and predictions..
This wolf is severely under estimated by those blinded by rigged up sciences to fit up to their agenda.. And I no longer support a managed wolf hunt, give em predator status and shoot em year round.
And of course Canadian and Russian Biologists have several decades of wolf expertise far and beyond the pathetic 15 years level of the USFWS and the states of Idaho/Wyoming/Montana..
You guys can keep pointing to your mythology all you want. What we see in on and around these lands where we live, myself right between the Sawtooth Wilderness, and the Frank Church Wilderness, visual evidence fits up to the professionals listed in this reply, not with the constantly pushed emotiona myth of the wild predators can manage the eco system.. That idea is so disproved at this point, that some still push it is laughable..
You might want to stop listening to FAUX and DRAMA fake news feller, oh and the FAUX Maughanite wild lies and agenda pushing every science study which appears to support our agenda is the gospel horse excrement blog as well..
And you yourself have disproved nothing here.
Does the political will exist for the preservation of the Intermountain West?
I can only conclude that most you of wolf huggers lack even a reasonably literate knowledge of the other kinds of general facts respecting our national history, worlds history, established religious psychopathic history, and including those religious zealots behind the science paradigm who invented the evolutionary joke hoax theory, and the think tanks which delivered to the world their environmentalist theories which they have implemented world wide via United Nations Agenda 21 Sustainable Development, (gosh man, it's so nice those elitist European super wealthy rascals love us Americans so much that they are looking out for our future generations), and the real reasons behind actual current events. That is why you defend the lie and fight the truth.. if it be any consolation for you at all, your opponents in this wolf war will never repair the eco systems, but then of course neither will the wolf nor your side get it done either. We cannot stop mans destiny at all, a total chaotic wreck. But hey dude, enjoy the hyperinflation.. I can pass along some great dog meat recipes if like.
The Russian people have had numerous problems with wolves, especially when those wolves were allowed to over populate. Graves does an excellent job bringing these facts into the discussion concerning how to handle wolves in the Rocky Mountains. I guess most of you are unaware that the still untamed Siberian Wilderness is massive, larger than any wildernes we have in North America, and Russians still must manage those wolves to protect other species of wild life, and to protect the villages around that Wilderness, a place once and forever primeval in its arctic desolation, still one of the most uncharted wilderness areas on earth, void of the mass of public travel and the like such as we enjoy here in the states, a real wilderness, and the Russians still must cull the wolf populations in order to preserve a wild life balance. The Siberian Wilderness is still the frontier compared to what we have around these rural areas in these three states which are failing miserably at the moment concerning wild life management, the truth is the environmentalists are not conservationists, and are responsible for massive crashes taking place among the wild life populations, and to hear or read of you spouting off about protecting eco systems and wild life would be laughable if this mess you fight to support were not so ugly to look upon.
And you guys sling out arrogant attempts at claiming a higher intelligence than us lowly peasants.. How pathetic ! You'll never win minds breeding your version of hatred because hatred only foments hatred..We don't hate wolves nor predators, we hate INCOMPETENT Boffoons with nothing to say.. People who are lead around by the nose expressing others opinions which emotionally match up to your identity while you attack others who differ from you belief. Your evidence is tainted !
" For many years I have read about wolves in Russia and talked at length with dozens of Russian hunters, state farm workers, game managers, biologists, zoologists about wolves. All of my research indicates that wolves kill wantonly in heavy snow and in periods of crusted snow. It is inconceivable to me how anyone could call wolves sanitarians of nature." -- Will Graves, Wolves in Russia.
In Idaho the majority of our elk wintered in heavy snow.
" Wolves destroy many valuable game birds, especially during winter and in the nesting seasons. The wolves usually kill the nesting hens, which sit firmly on their nests. In Russia wolves kill capercailzie, hazel hens, and grouse. These birds often sleep buried in snow during the winter months, and the wolves smell and kill them." Will Graves, Wolves in Russia.
Sage grouse in Idaho are hurting. Wolves smell out hybernating bears and kill them.
" Wolves do much damage to the hunting economy in every part of the USSR and to the northern livestock industry. From 1945 to 1954 there were about 75,000 reindeer lost to wolves in northern regions. Here the polar wolves are the actual herders of reindeer. There have been several cases in the Tajmyr region where wolves killed some 30 reindeer in one atack. The problem is compounded, for not only do the herders loose the reindeer killed by wolves, but the wolves scatter the herds far and wide, causing much additional work and loss of time for the herders." --Will Graves, Wolves in Russia
There is no way hunters could do this themselves. Since they probably only count from 1/3 to 1/2 of the wolves, even if the money was spent for this, it woudl not have an overall impact on them.
Shots of Depo cost $50 and dart delivery systems already exist. Since many hunters tend to xenocidal tendencies, let them shoot as many wolves with darts as they can afford. Employ aircraft where realistic.
The historical evidence collected is from the USSR prior to it's collapse.
Russia is not the US or Canada.. Wow, now thats some refutation of true wolf science and behavior, does that mean if we ship Idaho wolves to Russia they'll act different.
Sheet, we better do a study to find out, I'll apply for a federal grant in the morning, I here tell those guys will pay for anything.
Dearest Dewey, transplanted to Cody. You have NOT refuted with factual; evidence one of my posts.
Why don't you rascals just come clean and admit you are Globalists in support of all of the United Nations Treatises and Mandates which are subverting the Constitution and Declaration Of Independence of these United States..???
If those at the BBB are so dumb, stupid etc. etc. Then why not come crush us in debate ???
It seems to me some person calling themself Anthony even has the true defintion of coward backwards, Tom Remington holds and open to all forum, no censoring no deletion..
Ralph Maughan cannot make that claim..
Now run along back under the safety and protection of Maughans censored umbrella..
honey wagon dickinson is in fact female
Then we can say, The USA no longer exists, since we no longer exist our sciences like the USSRs sciences won't matter either.
Then it will be the U.N.s science.. Lol.
Mech could learn a whole lot from Russian wolf biologist/expert Biblikov...who spent 50 or more years and learned about wolves from where there were tens of thousands of wolves...not just a small northern Minnesota population where Mech spent most of his time.
Biblikov and Graves were good friends...and much of the research data in Graves' book "Wolves in Russia" came from Biblikov and his associate scientists. I speak with Will Graves at least two or three times weekly. In fact, he called yesterday.
Apparently you consider yourself a wolf expert, where did you get your degree in wolf biology? Do you actually spend time communicating with L. David Mech and talking with him on the phone?
Didn't think so.
Hey Delta, scroll back through the posts the last couple of days and see just how many "facts" the pro-wolf armchair scientists who are defending wolves here have shared.
They Don't Have Any...
Anyone seen ol' George Wuerthner lately? Even he can't defend the nonsense he presented about controlling wolf numbers in the article this comment section pertains to. But then, he was a student of Dr. Robert Ream...another academic who never let real wolf truths get in the way of trying to rewrite the script for wolves to follow. George tucked tail and ran nearly a week ago.
Big sky, I make no claim to represent anyone but myself (though I do happen to know of other pro-wolf people in Montana), and neither should you. And I do, in fact, have a job -- I work half-time in a lab as a research assistant. I'm thinking you could use a little time in an English class yourself, while Delta could stand to brush up on his Spanish -- between the two of you, you've managed to misspell "captain" in two different languages.
Delta -- there are plenty of experts on the other side too. In 2006, the American Society of Mammalogists passed a resolution expressing concern about the scientific basis of Alaska's predator control programs. An additional letter stating similar concerns was signed by 172 individuals, a number of whom are university scientists and wildlife biologists from around the nation (you can see their names here, if you're interested: http://www.alaskawolfkill.com/Palin_Letter.html). Does that give you no pause?
Also, what about Isle Royale? Wolves and moose have lived there together for over 50 years, neither species is hunted, and the island is isolated -- migration of animals into and out of it is fairly limited. Yet the wolves have not eliminated the moose. Furthermore, wolves did not exterminate ungulates on the North American continent in prehistoric times, when it is estimated that 400,000 wolves lived in what is now the western US alone (see http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/wolf_legacy.htm). So whether you look at a very small habitat area and a small population (Isle Royale) or a huge habitat with a large population (ancient US), you don't see wolves destroying their prey species. It would be ludicrous for a predator to completely kill off its own natural prey; such a predator would go extinct from starvation without any help from humans Maybe they have trouble maintaining "balance" in Russia without wolf control, but if so, I'm curious what they mean by "balance." Predator-prey populations do fluctuate over time; no one's denying that. But such fluctuations are natural and do not cause harm to the ecosystem over the long term. If ungulate populations are truly "crashing," let them crash; they'll pull up before they hit bottom.
"wolves kill wantonly in heavy snow"
Sometimes this does happen, but there's a reason for it. Wolves don't know where their next meal is coming from, many of their hunting attempts are unsuccessful, and they can be injured by kicks from their intended prey. So if they come upon a situation that sees their prey at a disadvantage and allows them to kill multiple animals at once, with less risk and expenditure of energy, they jump on it. The surplus carcasses provide a cache which they can later return to feed on. Surplus killing is probably motivated by survival, just like normal wolf hunting behaviors.
that's funny you post all day every day all over the Internet with poison ,hate ,and lies ad you will council someone else on spirituality??
boy we got the full line up today, liars, poachers, tin foil hat specialist, on and on. is there a full moon or somthing?
Greg does not hate Ralph Maughan. Does not care to reply at a censored and over moderated blog. Does not spread lies. Does not have a wife. Has not been employed since 1989 but worked as and independent contractor. Has been retired from contracting since 2008. Has never borrowed, loaned, stole, mooched, free loaded, from anyone.
Someone has no morals, scruples, integrity, nothing, no conscience to post such false filth about another using anothers name. Some one so filled with vile hatred to resort to such evil tactics.
The majority posting here use handles, including the coward resorting to this personal attack which is meaningless crap.
The Big Lie, Federal ownership of public lands
http://candidconservatives.com/the-big-lie-federal-ownership-of-public-lands-2/
"One of the wierdest government programs is the federal government paying environmentalists to sue the federal government to get rid of you," Budd-Falen said. " The whole system is totally amazing to me."
In the end the Federal government gets what it wants, how convenient.
Thesis; A problem is created; The immorality of cattle using 1.7 million acres of Idaho "federally owned lands" next to private lands..
Antithesis; Opposition to the problem is created ; Agenda 21, Sustainable Development, wolf wars, " environmentalist conservationist " movement..
Synthesis; The desired result is the "solution" using WWP and friends under color of law the removal of another public use option.
When accomplished will they stop there ? Absolutely not. They want hunting ended, they want back country travel ended, they want any thing which is in the U.N. Bio-Diversity Treatise which is un-sustainable on public lands ended..
Now that is going to be some legacy in the future for you Maughanites to be so proud of..
Ranchers using 1.7 million acres is causing harm to the other 34 million acres of federally controlled public lands in Idaho..
Sure ! What ever !
You get the horse excrement award..
JEFF E
Ya know, perhaps it is time I shared your name, place of employment, home address, and family members names with the blogosphere. I've held it back for two years to respect your wishes to remain anon.. Whatcha think JEFF E are you ready for that blog about you, I bet the governor would like it.. Your supervisor might just like it, or perhaps his supervisor..
You've gone to far this time.
The object will be to isolate all environmentalist dissidents from the mainstream and frighten everyone else who might check their evidence into remaining silent. It is always possible to find a few genuine crackpots; and, even though they will constitute less than one percent of the movement, they will be the ones selected by the media which is in favor of the environmentalist Agenda 21 actions to represent the dissident viewpoint. A little bit of garbage can stink up the whole basket.
In spite of that, responsible dissenters of the unfounded scientific environmentalist measures will still be heard. If they begin to attract a following, they will be accused of hindering the environmentalist Agenda 21 effort, committing hate crimes, poaching, terrorism, tax evasion, investment fraud, credit-card fraud, child molestation, illegal possession of firearms, drug trafficking, money laundering, or anything else that will demonize them in the public mind.
The wolf protecting mass media and the environmentalist DoW and Maughanite soldiers will uncritically report these charges, and the public will assume they are true. There is nothing quite so dramatic as watching someone on the evening news being propagandized, demonized and even thrown against the wall by a SWAT team and hauled off in handcuffs after being framed up by the Environmentalist nuts. TV viewers will assume that, surely, he must be guilty of something. His neighbors will shake their heads and say “… and he seemed like such a nice earth and predator loving person...
I'm gonna keep on bringing it. You clowns have got nothing beyond your fabrications.
I'm Fascinated actually.
Apparently you didn't read my first post carefully enough, big sky. I said I don't have any problem with hunting for food -- as long as we don't have to kill additional, non-food animals to facilitate it. I have no desire to ban deer and elk hunts, but I also think that we don't really need them, so I don't support the killing of wolves just to provide more prey for hunters. And that's assuming that killing some wolves actually *would* provide more prey for hunters; as expressed in George's original article, it might not.
Yes, hunting has an economic impact, but there are other ways to make money. If not as many hunters can hunt every year, they'll buy food from other sources and come up with other ways to entertain themselves, which they will pay for, and that will generate money too. And tourists who come to Montana to look at wolves bring in a lot of money in their own right. In any case, I don't think we should be sacrificing animals that we don't really need to kill on the altar of economic growth. Sheesh, I bet the slave trade generated a lot of money too, but I don't suppose you want to bring that back. I'm not saying that killing a wolf is equivalent to enslaving a human, but I think they're both unethical; it's just a matter of degree.
Anyway, my point about Isle Royale was this: unmanaged wolves do not destroy their prey, even when the amount of available habitat is small. You said that if we shot and trapped some wolves, we'd still have wolves and we'd still have elk. Well, let's say we don't shoot and trap any wolves -- we'll still have elk anyway! Your implication that wolves will eat all the elk if they are not hunted is flawed. The fact that Isle Royale has no people and Montana does makes no difference -- we still have more elk habitat here than the Isle has moose habitat.
"The small insignificant number of wolves that are shot in Alaska are done so mainly to boost ungulate populations in areas with severe predator problems."
"small insignificant" in whose opinion? There you go, treating them like commodities again. To me, every wolf is precious. And part of the criticism that has been leveled at Alaska's predator control initiatives stems from the fact that not enough data had been collected to ensure that removing predators would actually increase game populations, or that the desired game populations were not so large that they would damage the habitat. The scientists who sent those letters felt that other factors (such as habitat reduction) affecting prey populations had not been adequately addressed.
As for livestock: predation is part of the cost of doing business, and should be reflected in the price of meat, rather than externalized by killing the predators. (Again, this comes down to killing animals we don't intend to eat for the sake of money.) The impact wolves have on ranching is small anyway, compared to the death toll exacted by disease, severe weather, and pregnancy complications. And if more ranchers chose to adjust their husbandry practices to incorporate wolf-friendly protection methods, the number of livestock killed by wolves would drop even further. Non-lethal livestock protection methods are not 100% effective, of course, but neither is random hunting of a portion of the wolf population. We've been doing murder on coyotes for a long time now, and they still make away with some sheep and calves.
Delta -- what do globalization, hyperinflation, runaway government spending and tinkering with the economy, public land grabs, and any number of other things have in common? They all have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it's ethical to hunt wolves. Some of the environmentalists might have a sinister secret agenda for all I know; but my agenda is respect for all animal life, as individuals and as species, and for the natural order that God created. We are perfectly capable of having a free, sovereign, capitalist nation that does not kill wolves, and that's what I fight for. I am happy to ally with enviros as long as they support *my* agenda, and abandon them when they do not. As Abraham Lincoln said, "I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong."
Start with livestock. "Predation is the cost of doing business?" I am no rancher, but have worked for more than a few and know a bit about costs. The wolf huggers love to say that less than 1% of all losses are caused by wolves. Hmmmm, they must think that part of that "loss" is coming from taking the animals to the market where they are turned into hamburgers, etc. I know of no ranchers who lose cows or calves on purpose. Yes, some are lost during calving. Some are lost to disease. Some are lost to shipping. In every case, the people involved do everything possible to stop the losses. That is money lost in a private business. Along comes the wolf. Once in awhile (depending on where the producer lives) a cow or calf is killed. More often they are just maimed and have to be put down. The other costs are the loss of fencing due to wolves running cows (or horses) through fences, and the overall loss of weight on cattle due to the wolves presence in the area. This has been shown to be a large factor for many producers. The point being that if the wolves were not there the problems of this nature would stop. I realize you care little for these people. So be it. But I care alot about them and their livihoods. The states number one industry is livestock. Live with it.
"Small insignificant" is exactly what how many wolves are being shot in Alaska. "Every wolf is precious". Really? Is Eddie Gains precious? Ya know, the serial killer they based some of the texas chain saw movie on? The fella who killed several people, robbed graves and wore peoples skin? Not much difference here with some wolves. Ask the fellas who were hunting a few weeks ago and had the wolves stalk them (in Montana, no less). Luckily they had guns. Otherwise ol Mr. Wolfie mighta pulled an Eddie Gains on em. Guess we were lucky some environmental granola eater was not out backpacking that day.....you put wolves on equal footing with people. Good luck with that. It has been shown time and time again that removing some predators from an area increases game populations. Turth is truth whether you believe it or not. Of course, with DOW and EarthJustice controlling some of the research, any conclusion from any particular source can be stated as fact. How about just using a little common sense? Wolves are commodities to some folks. They provide a renewable resource for the people of Alaska and they make good coats. My friend in the North West Territories gets about $550 per wolf pelt. (Thats how he makes his living, with a renewable resource). You bambi people comparing wolves to people is beyond ridiculous. A little reality check is in order.
Your point about Isle Royale was also mute. It has nothing to do with our situation here. Domestic livestock is found here, and a viable hunting industry is found here. Not on Isle Royale. Read the data. In any area where wolves have been found for more than a few years, elk numbers plummet. Moose become nonexistant. Yellowstone moose numbers, 1995, 1200, 2010, 114 left! Will they become extinct? There are still about 100 wolves in yellowstone. We need a moose nonprofit foundation.... In my area of western montana, the moose tags (permits, you have to draw) went from something like 10 in 1990 to 1 bull in 2010. Most people there tell me why bother to put in? They don't think that there are any left to hunt anyway....that is a good point in itself. At least hunting is regulated. Wolves hunting ungulates is not and destroying our game herds. Much data on this in canada and alaska, much less the demise we are witnessing now around yellowstone and in the lolo region of Idaho.
Oh, yea, your "tourist dollars" brought on by wolves is almost nonexistant. Hunting brings billions to the state of montana. Wolves or hunting? I vote hunting. Puts people to work, helps the economy, and is a renewable resource. Perfect match for our state.
As far as the wolf being used as a political football to wreck hunting, the levels of dot connecting to the very foundations of the ESA agenda have everything to do with the lives and protection of all wild life, not just selected members of that wild life. Death is death and whether it be by bullet to cull in order to sustain a resource or self destruction by over population and starvation, which historical evidence supports, and my own experiences support, your arguments are null and void. Death is death no matter how you slice it and dice it. Just because many here are over protecting the wolf, for good reasons, their still being manipulated for a purpose. And as you say this nation can be a great sovereign nation with wolves, no shit sherlock, BUT that will not be the case, regardless if we have wolves or not. We are not sovereign individuals via contracts now, and this nation is not sovereign via U.N.Treatise and banking cartel frauds, and that is the point.
As far as your recent link;
Every single name on that list and their sciences is politically agenda driven ideology with only Isle Royal to point to, and that study hardly warrants changing management issues based on those findings claimed resulting from Isle Royal. As well most of them are relying on data by others that they simply agree with, most of them are far removed from the locations where the crashes are taking place, for example Bruskotter is in Ohio, indoctrinating up and coming young fools such as himself. We have studies from Russia, Canada, -Vancouver Island, Alaska. in fact to many to list which refute the ongoing experimental sciences which as of today have not proven your case. The U.N. and the U.S. government benefit if hunting loses. The majority of this new science is U.N. driven, and they state out in the open their intentions to disarm the world, small arms included. The destruction of real science based conservationism is with rigged data is key in the meatless and gunless society they wish for. Their own damn words not mine.
Funny how the data from this article leads one to Europe.
http://westinstenv.org/wildpeop/2010/10/28/the-secret-world-inside-the-animal-rights-agenda-—-part-one/
not sure what got your knickers in a twist this time but if it was the post of someone else using your name, wasn't me. Don't care if you believe that or not. It can be confirmed by management using I.P. # I believe. Not my style anyway. I use one screen name here. period.
After that you go ahead and do whatever you think you need to.
Marion,
please don't pray for me. I do not want to be linked to a serial liar such as yourself in anyway. particularly in the eyes of God who hates liars.
And right now? Wolves are, and will be at the top of that list, because there isn't much in the way of entertainment out there, or coming their way to keep them entertained.
You are the first person to claim I am a plumbers apprentice helper. Which was a lie when you did so. Funny how that keeps coming up in these belittling fests between three places that has been posted, including by you at Maughans..
Little white must get you past those pearly gates eh amigo ?
As far as the disrepect, denigration of others, petty bullshit attempts at discrediting, you and yours win first prize.
Congrats - :)
Jeff E at his judgement before the white throne of the Creator, Christ as his Judge asks, " Jeff, did you lie ?'' Did you attempt to stop others from tellign truths ?
YES !
I have never said you were a plumbers apprentice. I have said you are a plumbers helper however. completley different terms.
Like I said, wasn't me. Not my style.
I've taken econ classes, as a matter of fact. One in college and one in high school. I had conservative teachers for both of those too.
I am by no means making wolves coequal with people. However, you don't have to be as valuable as a human to deserve better than being made into somebody's coat. You tell me who is more deserving of being compared with a serial killer -- an animal that kills on instinct, for the food and territory it must have to survive, or a human capable of making moral choices, who kills to fatten his wallet. I find it ironic that you mentioned this Eddie Gains wearing the skin of his victims; wolves don't wear the skin of their prey, but that's exactly what fur trappers and their customers do. This is blood money, not an honest living. And certain people who have actually spent extensive time living with and observing wolves recognize that they have individual personalities and form social relationships with other members of their pack. They have all the intelligence and social capacity of domestic dogs, if not more; and, like all animals, they are vulnerable to suffering. "Raincoast Conservation Foundation large carnivore scientists Drs. Paul Paquet and Chris Darimont have written that 'wolves have complex social traits . . . they are keenly sensitive and caring animals and are known to mourn for extended periods when a group member is killed.' " So maybe you're the one who needs a reality check, rather than the "bambi people." Have you ever observed a wolf pack up close for an extended period of time, or read the work of those who have? Wolves aren't people, but neither are they biological automatons that can be "harvested" without regard, like blades of grass. And anyone who shuts himself in at night for fear of wolves would do as well to fear his neighbor's pet dog, or maybe those moose you love so much. Even DEER attack and kill people sometimes, not to mention the number of people who die in deer-related car crashes. I could count the number of humans known to be killed by North American wolves in the past 100 years on my fingers.
Explain to me exactly how the fact that Montana has livestock and hunting industries invalidates the Isle Royale analogy. Livestock take up some of the habitat that would otherwise be occupied by elk, moose, etc., but we still have enough habitat remaining to sustain an ungulate population far larger than the one on Isle Royale. So I don't see why the presence of livestock means that un-hunted wolves will drive the ungulates extinct here, even though they don't on Isle Royale. As for hunting, the renewed presence of wolves *might* require a rethinking of our quotas, but that doesn't mean that we have to either stop hunting ungulates or watch them die out. At the end of the day, if we do things right, our hunting impact can just be like that of an additional natural predator. If wolves, cougars, and bears can all have a share of the prey herds without driving them extinct (as they did for centuries on this continent before we got here), then we can too. We might not be able to have as much as we want all the time, but oh, there's that greed thing again. In any case, there is neither hunting nor livestock in YNP, so why are the moose declining there but not in Isle Royale? Could it be that other factors besides wolf predation are involved?
Don't dredge up that Canadian super-wolf thing unless you have some actual weight/size studies of our reintroduced Montana wolves to prove it. The average weight of male wolves taken in Idaho's hunt was 101 lb., females 86 lb.; in Montana, adult wolves taken in the hunt weighed 97 lb. on average. According to Niermeyer, records pertaining to wolf hunting in the Northern Rockies in the 1930s show that the body weights of the wolves that were killed then were similar to those of the wolves we have now.
"In any area where wolves have been found for more than a few years, elk numbers plummet."
Please show me where you got this. You tell me to look at the data, and then you say nothing about what data I'm supposed to look at. A study done by Idaho's own Department of Fish and Game shows that 1) the elk population in the Lolo region has been dropping since before wolves came on the scene, due to habitat deterioration, and 2) elk are only declining in six of the twenty-nine management areas in the state. In three of those six areas, other causes of death claim more elk than wolves do. Human hunters were the biggest cause of death in two of the three. And the Idaho DFG is one of the last organizations I would expect to have a pro-wolf bias, so if you question the validity of this study, you'd better have a mighty good reason.
Economic impact: I think you're overstating your case with those "billions of dollars." A 2006 USFWS survey estimated that hunting contributed $315 million to Montana's businesses that year, and a lot of that is coming from resident hunters, not people bringing in money from outside. Wyoming only makes $138 million, and again that includes residents. This study (http://www.georgewright.org/251duffield.pdf) estimates that tourists coming just for wolves (i.e. wouldn't have come if wolves weren't there) spend about $35.5 million a year. That's small compared to the hunting revenue, but it's still a tidy sum -- enough to make up for the loss of a few tags each year.
how about the non-stop assertion that the # of wolves were supposed to be only 100 per state. you are still telling that one. Right now on the other thread you are saying somthing about some agreement made between enviros and the states. In both cases you have been showen time and again that those two assertions are not true. you keep saying it. it's a lie when you continue to do that, to me and everyone else. you are pathetic.
I could go on but I probably won't live long enough to document it all.
"Death is death and whether it be by bullet to cull in order to sustain a resource or self destruction by over population and starvation"
I dealt with this contention in my very first post, and you completely ignored it. Please rebut what I said there before bringing this up again.
"And as you say this nation can be a great sovereign nation with wolves . . . BUT that will not be the case, regardless if we have wolves or not. "
Then why in the world is the wolf issue such a big deal to you? If America is going down the tubes no matter how many wolves we have, why are you in such a sweat to have them hunted? To hear you talk, "overprotection" of wolves is the lynch pin of the great enviro-globalist conspiracy. If it's not, then why don't you go deal with the real problem and stop bothering us?
"Every single name on that list and their sciences is politically agenda driven ideology"
Oh, really? Are you telling me you sat down and researched EVERY SINGLE ONE of the 172 people on the list, to check their academic reputation and see what agenda or ulterior motives they might have? Or are you just making an assumption? Because I could just as easily make assumptions about the wolf experts you put forward. I could say that they're all a bunch of control freaks who get a thrill and a feeling of power out of killing animals for fun and bending nature to their whims. I could say that all their science is driven by a secret agenda to enable the slaughter of as many animals as possible, without arousing the suspicions of caring individuals, under the guise of maintaining "balance." (I don't need to invoke some major conspiracy to make this assumption, either; the quality I describe just naturally arises in human nature sometimes.) But I won't say that, because I have no evidence. I will allow that your people may well be perfectly sincere, and even that many of their observations may be correct (though I question the conclusions you draw from them). Until you come up with some solid proof that the scientists and professionals on my list are engaging in or blindly parroting shoddy research, I'll ask you not to impugn their reputations.
I'm also really getting tired of the "they don't live here, so they have no right to judge" line. You don't have to be right in the middle of a situation to understand it or appreciate both sides. Reasonable people in ALL parts of the US, and even in other countries, are capable of reading the full spectrum of arguments, doing research, consulting the scientific literature, and forming their own conclusions about the wolf issue. I don't have to actually touch a hot burner to decide that it would be a bad idea, and I wouldn't have to live in Montana to decide that hunting wolves is a bad idea (it just so happens that I do live here).
One final thought. You claim to be a champion of freedom. You say that you just want to live and let live. So how come your camp are always the ones using words like "manage" and "control"? I'll live and let you live the way you want when you extend the same courtesy to wolves and other predators. Let wolves be wolves, let coyotes be coyotes, etc., instead of taking the attitude that they must adapt themselves to human desires or die.
naww honey wagon, I don't have any anger issues where you are concerned. I find you're continual lying disgusting and I, and apparently others, will continue to set you straight, lost cause as that may be. But the problem gets to be that the casual visitor that does not know any better may actually think you know what you are talking about due to the sheer volume of horseshit you put out. So i will carry on.
Another thing you are trying to pull is the victim card. What a load. I am sure you use that one all the time and is typical with those from the livestock industry in the west. poor me, poor me. bottom line is you are certainly nothing to waste an iota of anger on, pity being more appropriate.
You call me names, threaten me, try everything you can to intimidate me, and you can't believe I won't go away so you can spew your hatred unabated. You are such a brave soul yourself that you hide behind a pseudonym for yourself.
You don't research much...do you? Congress did cnduct an inquisition into the theft of Pitman-Robertson funds (which Jim Beers did blow the whistle on)...and found that USFWS did indeed embezzle tens of millions for funding for totally unauthorized projects...including bonuses, contstruction of a new (unauthorized) office in California, travel, and "other projects". And one of those "other" projects was the wolf project in the Northern Rockies. The only defense that D.O.W.'s v.p. Jamie Rappaport Clark gave was somethig to the effect of, I didn't know that I could not use the money for that." She was the Director of USFWS at that time - when the theft was discovered.
Also, for the record, Jim Beers is a biologist...also served as a USFWS Special Agent...was the Chief of National Wildlife Refuge Operations for a period...and headed dispersing the Pitman-Robertson funds to the states at the time he discovered that Clark and her crooked associates had been dipping into the monies collected as excise taxes on firearms, ammo, fishing tackle, archery gear, etc. that sportsmen willingly paid - since the money was supposedly to be used exclusively for wildlife habitat and fisheries improvement...not for building a new office, travel (much of it non business related), big bonuses...and dumping non-native, non-endangered Canadian wolves into the Northern Rockies.
Jim Beers served 32 years with USFWS...and was one hell of a lot more than an "animal control" agent as you insinuate. But then, you guys have never once let truth get in the way of you telling your false stories - have you?
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
PS - If you do decide to break free from the phony pro-wolf mold, and do some research...please try to find documentation of when and where Congress approved funding for the start of the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery Project. I and many others would love to be proved wrong on that one.
Did the sentient animal beings get together and draw up a constitution putting them level, or equal with man. Or, did a group of human control freaks using think tank strategy do it for them. You and your 172 opinions are pushing people control, not eco system or animal protection. You are pushing an unproven ideology period. It has been the hunting model of conservation since the 1930s, which stopped commercial hunting, year around hunting, established predator protections via limited predator take seasons. And prosecuted violators of those rules of management. And an excise tax funding base to be used to manage wild game and other forest creatures in these land locked scenarios settlement has created and established.
The thesis being pushed might work in some places in the west, but certainly will never work in all of the west. Or for that matter in the entire country. As a matter of fact it failed here where I live. Yes, I do pay attention to those 172 opinions and a lot more than those, and it is merely and attempt to remove the excise tax, or to include the management of wild animals and fishes into a general funds tax, thus justifying more control measures.
You and yours are not talking about self management by animals, you are talking another type of management system which removes me as a predator from the picture at your whim. Might not be your personal intent, but I am not talking about your intentions. I'm pointing out the aspects of this nightmare in which you either choose to ignore, or have " accidently " over looked. I find your justifications for arm chair opinions amusing, and yet you folks constantly toss out the evidence coming from those on the scene with eyes on the factual actions and results as mute because your arm chair science gospel could not be in error. Reminds me of a famous fake christian man claiming to be a god and that he is infallible. Thanks for the laughs.
The bottom line is no management as has been established historically, there can be no hunting by humans any longer. And that is in the studies of the documents at the foundation of these so-called science and environmentalist new models being pushed by your side. To allow those upturns and down turns in the predator prey wild animal world cannot sustain modern hunting practices. Modern Hunting according to Agenda 21s Sustainable Development is un-sustainable. Your thesis does not support my lifestyle.
" A revised recovery plan was approved by the Service in 1987
(Service 1987). It identified a recovered wolf population as being at
least 10 breeding pairs of wolves, for 3 consecutive years, in each of
3 recovery areas (northwestern Montana, central Idaho, and
Yellowstone). A population of this size would be comprised of about
300 wolves. The plan recommended natural recovery in Montana and
Idaho. If two wolf packs did not become established in central Idaho
within 5 years, the plan recommended that conservation measures other
than natural recovery be considered. The plan recommended use of the
Act's section 10(j) authority to reintroduce experimental wolves in
the Park. By establishing a nonessential experimental population, more
liberal management practices may be implemented to address potential
negative impacts or concerns regarding the reintroduction."
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/FR11221994Yellowstone.htm
Congress did reprimand USFWS Director Jamie Clark...and she mysteriously was fired (voluntarily she claimed)...and went to work with the pro-wolf, anti-hunting evironmental groups.
Seems she used her stolen money to further her career.
Ms. Clark loves the money associated with wildlife. By fighting wolf management, and promoting the ongoing destruction of elk, moose, deer and other big game species (by wolves)...it is very apparent that she cares more about her $300,000 annual salary than she does about wildlife welfare. She's a phony. So, hurry up and call Defenders of Wildlife and pledge another $1,000 to their "Great American Wolf Scam Job".
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
thx 4 playn
Actually elk within the Stanley basin are within objective levels.
Oh I live between the sawtooth and frank church theres no elk left wahhhhh! cuz I say soooo!
Wolves are in fact wildlife. They are "big" game. They have an essential role in the andscape, and they are also a very huntable trophy species.
If the the Don Peays and David Allens on the "A" List and the Toby Bridges' and bigsky and Todd's ---the usual suspects, as reckoned by monogrammed barstools ---and all the other rabid mouthblasters beyond count would only get educated, enlightened, and have an epihany ---you would all get right behind this noble notion . Protect wolf habitat; assure their numbers, and their prey ( elk) ; then hunt them right along side grizzlies , black bears, and cougars ( and even coyotes) and be all macho and braggadoccio about it and put them red feathers in their Cabela's caps and have your annual banquets in Missoula or Cody and big drinks and mosh in Reno.
Its all the same thing, guys. You cannot parse out wolves from the rest of the North American wildlife panopply ...not from other carnivores or the herbivores and ungulates you so dearly love to shoot.
Wolves are not wiping out the livestock industry and they ferdamnsure are entitled to just as many elk , deer, and jackrabbits as any of you. It's time you threw out your 19th century B.S. and rhetoric and wholly embraced a real 21st Century Big Game Conservation Model that includes the Grey Wolf.
Would anyone like to help start a chapter of the Rocky Mountain Grey Wolf Foundation ?
You sure are one lazy human being. Get off of that big fat duff of yours and do some research.
You act as if you know it all...and all you're showing is that you know nothing...and are too lazy to look for the facts yourself.
Does your momma still feed you and change your britches???
Congress did indeed call ol Two-Faced Clark in on the carpet over the misappropriation of Pitman-Robertson funds...and she was dismissed from her position shortly thereafter.
So...in a way...I guess you could call Chief of Operations for the National Wildlife Refuge System "animal control". Sorry pal...you don't know squat about Jim Beers...and your ignorance is showing...so please pull up your pants. We've all seen that side of you...every time you post.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
You cite something and can not even understand what it says. Hint:look for the two words "at least"
or here from the same document, look for the word "minimum".
"In accordance with the Act, delisting may occur
when analysis of the best available scientific and commercial
information shows that gray wolves are no longer threatened with
extinction due to: (1) Loss of habitat, (2) overutilization, (3)
disease or predation, (4) inadequacy of existing regulatory
mechanisms, and (5) other natural or manmade factors. In addition to
the above, the final EIS, states that the following criteria must be
met: (1) For 3 consecutive years, a minimum of 10 breeding pairs are
documented in each of the 3 recovery areas described in the revised
wolf recovery plan (Service 1987);"
I tell ya honey wagon you get more pathetic by the hour.
so keep on lying, i'll keep on keepin on.
And we all know who appointed USFWS Director and misapropriations of funds criminal Jamie Clark, Mister law breaker Billy Clinton, Slick Willy. Who violated the very defintions of a Democracy with his reign.
One of Bill Clinton's most insidious Executive Orders ( i.e. a dictatorship measure) was EO 12986, which was issued on January 9, 1996. The decree extended immunity from lawsuits to the International Union for the Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources, IUCN, which is an accredited scientific advisory body to the United Nations. The IUCN has more than 880 affiliates in 133 countries, including scores of state and federal governmental agencies and non-government organizations in the U.S. that seek to promote "alternative model for sustainable communities and lifestyles, based on ecospiritual practices and principles." Toward that end, the IUCN created the "Wildlands Project," a scheme to transform at least one-half the surface area of the continental United States into a vast "eco-park" purged of modern industry and private property. The leading way to bring about that cause is through American Academics. Thus the training and beliefs of your 172 scientists has been seriously influenced by these goals. Their not thinking for themselves their programmed to install this ideology.
The Wildlands project was to be incorporated as part of the United Nations Convention on Biodiversity, which was signed by Bill Clinton in July 1995. One month later, the Environmental Protection Agency issued a directive instructing "Natural resource and environmental agencies" to develop "a joint strategy to help the United States fulfill its existing obligations (e.g. Convention on Biodiversity, Agenda 21 ). Agenda 21, it should be noted, is the Mammoth blue-print for global eco-socialism produced by the United Nations at its 1992 "Earth Summit" in Rio de Janeiro. In September 1994, the Senate refused to ratify the Biodiversity treaty when it was discovered that its "binding Protocols," which had been devised by the IUCN, mandated the implementation of the Wildlands Project in order to conserve "biodiversity."
Mr. Clinton, as his custom, simply ignored the Senate's refusal to ratify the treaty. Through EO 12858 he created the President's Council on Sustainable Development, which coordinates federal efforts to "Harmonize" environmental regulatory practices with UN directives. His subsequent decrees regarding "roadless areas" and new "national monuments fit perfectly into the Wildlands frame-work, which is built around a net-work of existing "core .protected areas" - such as the Grand Canyon - which are surrounded by "buffer zones" and then connected by "wildlife corridors." Former Earth First! eco-terrorist Dave Forman, helped concoct the Wildands Project, urges ecoradlcal groups to "look for gaps between wild lands or public lands" for future acquisition "by public agencies or private groups like; the Nature Conservancy." In this way, private lands abutting federally designated "protected" areas can be pried out of private hands, until (in Foreman's words) "the matrix, not just the nexus is, wild." With two strokes of his proverbial pen, Bill Clinton has placed millions of property owners in the path of the Wildlands juggernaut - and through EO 12986, he placed the IUCN beyond civil accountability for any injuries sustained by private property owners.
What the f*^K do we need laws for anyhow..??
========
Larix, tag opportunity in the Sawtooth Zone has been reduced over 50%, that includes unit 36 of the Sawtooth Valley. No one said elk are gone. But cow to calf recruitment is still below the requirement to sustain herd growth.
========
" as per United States Department of the Interior,Ed Bangs, NRM DPS Wolf Recovery Coordinator, Helena, Montana, April 26, 2010
115 packs met the definition of “breeding pair,” (packs containing at least one adult male and one adult female and 2 or more pups on December 31) (Tables 4a, 4b). Minimum recovery goals (an equitably distributed NRM wolfpopulation that never goes below 100 wolves and 10 breeding pairs in Montana, in Idaho, and in Wyoming and is managed to consistently maintain over ISO wolves and IS breeding pairs per state) have been exceeded in the NRM DPS every year since 2002
Conclusion: The status (as demonstrated by increased pack distribution and numbers of wolves, packs, and breeding pairs in 2009 compared to any previous year) of the wolf population in the NRM DPS exceeds recovery levels. Dispersal and breeding by wolves traveling between the recovery areas was documented in 2009 further proving the meta-population structure of the NRM is being maintained solely by natural dispersal. No threats were identified (A. The present or threatened destruction, modification, or curtailment of its habitat or range; B) Overutilization for commercial, recreational, scientific, or educational purposes; C) Disease or Predation: D) Adequacy or inadequacy of existing regulatory mechanisms; E) Other natural of man-made factors affecting its continued existence (including but not limited to-public attitudes, genetic considerations; climate change; catastrophic events; and impacts to wolf social stmcture) that could threaten the wolf population in the NRM DPS in the foreseeable future. Delisting has not threatened the NRM wolf population nor increased threats to it.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/post-delisting-wolf-monitoring/doc20100428072425.pdf
The Lolo Wildlife Management Zones 10 and 12 in Idaho elk populations have been officially counted. Zone 10 counted 1,473 elk, while Zone 12 tallied 705. So how does this compare with previous years when aerial counts were done? Zone 10: 1989 – 11,507 1992 – 7,745 1994 – 9,729 1998 – 5,079 2003 – 2,643 2006 – 3,452 2010 – 1,473. Zone 12: 1989 – 3,763 1992 – 3,452 1994 – 3,315 1995 – 3,832 1997 – 2,667 2002 –2,048 2006 – 1,658 2010 – 705
Wolves were reintroduced in 1995. Any idiot can see there is an elk management problem---more like a wolf management problem.
What we hear perpetually from the wolf advocates and environmentalist is how the elk counts in Idaho show the number of elk growing or holding steady. What they refuse to tell you is that in those areas where the wolves are flourishing, we see numbers just as are shown above. When the wolves have eaten everything in sight in the Lolo Zone, they will move on to find more prey and destroy it as well. Only until they have completed that task will we see the “natural” management kick in where wolves will starve to death and/or die of disease and cannibalism.
Allowing wolves to grow in these numbers such that they virtually wipe out elk herds, deer herds, and eventually even themselves is not good wildlife management and contrary to what we all hear this is not the kind of Utopian “natural” wildlife management any of us should aspire for. It’s irresponsible.
And once again you are pushing your defintions of management by your theory which go's against established and succcessful management by a proven record of over 7 decades. Thats what this boils down to, another type of human interaction with wild life. My way allows me to eat. Your way kills wolves eventually anyhow..
Why should wolves starve to death ? During these crashes you approve of. Your sciences and your arguments are broken.
It is unfortunate because in my opinion if we had that part in hand we would be looking at the rest of it in the rear veiw mirror by now.
As an aside have you ever seen an elk with a white body,black head and neck/
been driving any north Idaho roads lately?
Nope...been busy hunting close to home here in Montana.
Jeff E...you remind me of someone who is too busy talking to listen. What you post here is probably about as close to being a writer as you will ever come...and you fall way short.
If you would read more...perhaps you would already know that U.S. district court judge Alan Johnson, of Cheyenne, WY ruled (last Thursday) that USFWS had no reason to reject Wyoming's plan. And, in a round about way, it says that Montana's federal judge Molloy wrongly relisted wolves.
Gettin' real interesting...isn't it ol' man. You are a man, aren't you. It's kind of hard to tell.
just wondering. seems to fit your style
no the records are not clear. keep on lying
Since you seem to know so much about Jim Beers, perhaps you can show up at the next hearing that takes USFWS to task over the theft of Pitman-Robertsons funds. And you can present all of your testimony and proof that there was not theft of those funds ($60- to $70-million).
Rest assured, there will be one.
Toby
It's because you guys have got nothing. And your phony little world...childish name calling...bashing...and outright lies mean nothing. Your world in imploding on you.
Me, I've got better things to do. In fact, I've just gotten a book deal out of all this. So. I want to thank you "unreal mike"...Will...Dewey...Jeff E...Nancy...Larix...Andy...and a few others.
I couldn't have done it without ya'.
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
Most books are self-published these days...digital one-offs printed as needed for unit price , usually paid for by the author. A lot of Vanity press these days. Too much . Anybody can publish a book, just as any incompetent can do a blog or website. You stand in your own shadow. In the last year that statistics are availabe for, 2008 , there were 275,232 new books published in the USA alone; one year. You'll get lost in the background noise and that bizzard of BS pretty quickly .
But then again , you may have some access to the Black Bear Blog mailing list to bolster sales of your little brown manifesto. Why we may even see sales of Toby Bridges Greatest Hits topping 500 on the Maine Hunting Today bestseller list, right there alongside " How to SH_T in the Woods "
So tell us about your big book deal, Toby .
And will we be seeing you on Oprah's couch ?
No, I don't think so, because you obviously are not intellectually qualified to write a book on wolves. Judge Molloy's decision was based on points A, B , and C, while Judge Johnson's decision ruled on Points D,E, and F of the complexities of wolves. I'd be willing to bet you have not read either decision in full or compared and contrasted the two. ( HINT: take off those polarized sunglasses when reading legal rulings )
You've done nothing but prove my point. You keep assuming that all the researchers on my side are biased just because they are on my side. You're doing exactly what we've been accused of doing, and discounting any science that doesn't happen to support your viewpoint. If the science supports an unmanaged wolf population, then it must be part of the grand conspiracy! If any biologist dares to disagree with your favorite experts, then he must be part of the grand conspiracy! You've provided absolutely no proof that I've noticed of the "rigged data" you allege (beyond some personal anecdotes), and your assertions verge on being libelous. And again you go on about wolves starving to death if not hunted, without addressing what I said on that topic up above. I'm about done with you, I'm afraid.
Anyway, if US academia is corrupt, why should science from Canada or the USSR be any better? The USSR was a Communist country, mind you, and Canada is probably more liberal and globalist than the US is at the moment. And while it's possible to indoctrinate people through academia, growing up in a rural town where most of your family and neighbors are hunters provides its own kind of indoctrination. EVERYONE brings personal biases to the table, scientist or not, but you've provided no proof that my experts are any more likely to have given in to those biases than are yours.
Your lauded "hunting model of conservation" can effectively preserve *species* if executed properly. It isn't very kind to individuals. I don't care how long it has worked or how grand its successes have been, it's time to move on from the good to the better.
"Your thesis does not support my lifestyle."
Ah, so is that what this is really all about? Tell me why I should care. Lifestyles aren't sacred and disapproving of someone's lifestyle is perfectly acceptable, as opponents of gay marriage (myself included) are fond of pointing out. Sorry buddy, but in my opinion, your lifestyle stinks. It undervalues animal life and enshrines unnecessary killing as a human right. You claim that conservation is your real motive and that pro-wolf plans are against conservation; but if you're arguing from a conservationist standpoint, it shouldn't even be necessary to bring your lifestyle into this. Come back when you're really ready to put animals' lives first and your entertainment choices second, and then we'll talk. Besides, you're not the only one who matters. My lifestyle includes watching wildlife, especially predators, and I desire an increased wolf population to enhance my lifestyle. So YOUR thesis doesn't support MY lifestyle, how's that?
As for whether it's a good idea to delist the wolf, I'd like to point out D): threatened due to inadequacy of existing regulatory mechanisms. Many fear that the existing state regulations on wolf hunting are inadequate, and that the quotas being proposed, coupled with the number of wolves killed every year in control actions by Wildlife Services, will have a severe impact on the wolf population and its genetic connectivity. We have some connectivity between the different wolf populations, but there's no guarantee that will continue if the states are allowed to implement their desired management plans.
let me guess the title; The Life and Times of a Poacher. with a forward by Tony J. Mayer
Do you remember that spokesman for Saddam Hussein back during the early part of the Iraq War, the guy who said Iraq's Republican Guard was everywhere victorious and there was no way the Coalition could enter Baghdad? I believe he became known as " Baghdad Bob" during the news cycles. He was a godsend for fake news industry , and even Jon Stewart couldn't touch him when he was hitting on all three cylinders.
I always wondered what happened to ole B. Bob , that colorful piece of propaganda in khakis and black beret . I think he moved to Missoula and changed his name to Toby Bridges....
On this auspicious day of feast and celebration , we should all pause and give thanks to Toby Bridges for providing us the lowest common denominator and such a tempest of noise in a crock pot. He teaches us all how NOT to advance one's agenda . There is much we can learn from Toby . Just not as he professes it himself.
Can't wait for that book... get cracking , Bobbalobo
Fertility vaccines: The BS, RN, MS, CNM, CNP, PhD with whom I live administers it to women. 100% safe and effective.
http://www.fwhc.org/health/vaccine.htm
Let's preserve the West.
I'm sure your wife as a medical professional would not be happy with you spouting off erroneous information more or less attributed to her. I sure would not.
Here is more on PZP. http://www.pzpinfo.org/pzp.html
I've studied those scientists writings, those sustainable beliefs are not their own, in the end the sustainable sciences will sustain nothing. It's a pipe dream. We shall agree to disagree, good luck believing men of failure. We will not stop or fix this disaster. We will Keep watching, we await your predicted success.
The governments of the world, the United Nations, and especially the u.s. corporate government, cannot balance their financial matters, cannot live within their means, proven by massive debts. These same governments, led by the most bankrupt and puppet of the U.N. government in world history, the u.s. corporate government, are claiming they know how to balance nature, thus saving natural resources for future generations. If they fuck this plan up to, billions of people are going to starve to death, probably your kids, and grandkids. How many Phds does it take to kill 5.5 Billion people ? Only 545 Phds crashed our American economy and lead us to massive debts. Phd= Phoney or duped Hegelian Dialectical Shits.
As you can see I have little faith in the failings of men. Now here is my prediction;
Agenda 21s Sustainable Development is telling the truth when those sciences lead you to believe the object is to protect resources for future generations. Just not your future generations.The resources are being preserved for the future generations of the elites, and their slave populations once they remove 5.5 Billion humans from this earth. The goal is to have a world population of 500 million, working for the elite bloodlines whom own the majority of the worlds wealth. That is the true objective behind the Aldobrandini's UNICEP, United Nations, Agenda 21s Sustainable Development. Humanity is nothing more than a herd to be culled to those elites. You're not human, you're their chattle. Stop helping them to accomplish this goal.
I also am done with you Cap, good luck.
Jeff e- as to your question to IDFG traitor Gamblin..
=In all of the land mass you mention, are those lands to full ungulate carrying capacity at this time?, were they ever in our established hunting model history? Are those 50% of lands you decided can handle wolves to what you guys deem wolf carrying capacity surrounded by rural farms, ranches, homes, livestock, towns, communities? Would you explain to me what those wolves are going to live on? Rabbits and ducks ? Voles ? This is not about acres and square miles, this is about existing elk herds sustaining wild predators, and the modern era hunting model combined thus allowing us the chance to live with and hunt with the additional predator this politcal wolf war is about. If those acres, have no prey you have no predators. The predator prey cycle might return and start over, in the mean time no humans will harvest prey.= This is why we who oppose you do not buy into your ideology. The land mass in question cannot handle 5000 wolves. And we are far beyond 300 wolves. That arguement is pissing in the wind. Hell, the Sawtooth Zone including the Boise River Zone is four plus YNPs, I doubt that land mass had 25,000 elk, now it is a shambles, won't sustain wolves much less hunting by man, which has been reduced by IDFG pulling tag opportunity and creating a limited over the counter quota system, and no one can tell us with out guessing how many wolves are in there, or were in there. That country was a decent elk hunt, and trophy class buck hunt, and that country was not to ungulate carrying capacity in our fifty plus years of living here. You want to turn 162,706 sq. mi. or 104,131,840 acres into the same thing, and elk herd cow to calf ratio disaster area. Not to mention thousands more angry people. When those trophy Utah hunts for bulls and bucks are ruined and nothing is left but dog turds, more people will turn against you guys. And even though you left out those massive herds in Colorado, with the landscapes there those elk are sitting ducks for unlimited over protected wolves to devour right into herd collapse as well. Your blindness blows my mind dude.