Schadenfreude levels maxing out......

So you're happy that potentially hundreds of good people may be out of work soon? ....Nice.

Oh come on. Don't be so naive. Am I slightly tickled that these titans of real estate, modern day heroes that have been held up as role models to emulate, turn out, as a class, to be just as stupid as any other class of people? Yes, I am. Am I more than a bit amused by the fact that by their greed and short-sightedness they will end up with nothing? Yup.
Am I concerned that local builders and resort workers will lose their jobs and what not? No. Because I read the article, especially the part about operations expected to continue. Even if they didn't, we are in the midst of a very deep recession and folks in the construction trade and seasonal tourist employment can be many things, but SURPRISED about layoffs isn't one of them. So I'm sad about their situation, but not SAD sad, if you know what I mean.
My overwhelming feeling is Hope. Hope that the whoever gets the Golf Course for pennies on the dollar finishes it.

Let's do an audit to see if there was any monkey business with these funds. Birds of the same feather flock together. Maybe Timmy was Lee's mentor. They both lived high on the hog for a while. Remember pigs get fed and hogs get slaughtered. Time for Madison County to annex Jack Creek and open the doorway to Big Sky. It has been a long time coming. County Commissioners need to start the ball rolling ASAP.

Naive? Naive is being "amused" by the tribulations of folks you don't even know. Naive is thinking that the pain caused by events like this isn't a big deal and that the referenced employees can just "be many things".
Is the thought of "titans" and big-wigs getting their comeuppance slightly appealing in these difficult times especially if they've made some mistakes? Of course. There are millions of folks in this country who have made financial mistakes over the past few years. Are you then "amused" at the wealthy couple who worked their asses off all their lives who then invested with Madoff and lost everything because they failed to properly vet their investment company? Are you "amused" that the single mother of two busting her ass at the now faltering ski resort doesn't sleep at night because she may or may not get a paycheck in two weeks? Are you even "amused" at the 20 something ski bum who's dream job at the moment is running a lift and washing dishes at Moonlight so he can ride more days that not this winter who now may need to "be something else"?
These aren't just overly dramatized examples, they are situations being faced all across the country right now, not just in Madison cnty, MT.
It doesn't sound like you've been in this kind of situation yourself but if you have then you're truly heartless.
If you haven't then take a minute to consider the broader ramifications of an event like this. Moonlight Basin is a huge employer in Madison county and one of the largest tax generators here. Trust me when I say that Lee Poole is the least of Lee Poole's worries. He came from very humble beginnings and WORKED his way to the position he's in right now by making good and smart decisions as well as surrounding himself with extremely good people. Dislike him because he's a developer...fine, but to be "amused" that this company finds itself in the position they're in now...now THAT's SAD sad...

and as for your shortsighted and frankly mean comment sharkbait...get a clue. You have no idea what you're talking about and you very obviously don't know Lee. Do you have a point or do you just like being rude?

It also strikes me as fairly amusing that both comments here end with truly selfish thoughts. Goeff fervently hoping that the golf course gets finished and sharkbait hoping that the jack Creek road opens...interesting.

M

No one, including it seems, Lehman knows what may happen with the resort this winter and beyond.

Seasonal or otherwise, lifty or manager, would you or anyone be O.K. with the potential prospect of having to be something else in this economic climate?

Naivete Goeff, is not considering the big picture and making flip comments refering to other peoples LIVES that are now and have been in some uncertainty.

M

What amuses me is the surprise of all of this. You think the lifty who took a job for this upcoming winter should have any reasonable thought as to job security? Come on, this bankruptcy filing was telegraphed ages ago. I empathize with the wage workers who are out of a job and due to family circumstances can't relocate if they truly want to work in a resort atmosphere. But COME ON!!! The Big Sky area has been imploding for 18 months at least, and is the best example of bubble economics one could dream of. Moonlight was never a viable business, nor is the Yellowstone Club as presently organized. They both made terrible, short-sighted business decisions that have been well documented on these pages, so when the clock finally ran out on Moonlight, surprise and shock are not credible.

Who said anything about being surprised? I surely didn't. In fact the heading of this article says "as expected"! Your initial post alluded to your satisfaction or "amusement" with the plight of Moonlight, not chiding anyone about being surprised by it.

Just because this has been in the works for a while now doesn't make it any easier for anyone. Most of the folks I know (including the liftys) who work at Moonlight chose this place and this lifestyle for reasons other than employment. Most also consider themselves extremely lucky to be employed at a place that values family and community like Moonlight does (and the Pooles do). Do you love where you work? Do you know how it feels to love a community and have an employer who actually cares? And can you empathize with the prospect of having that rug pulled out from under you, from under a life you are happy and content with? Doesn't sound like it.
No one is denying mistakes were made. As I said earlier, mistakes, both financial and otherwise, have been made time and time again by both dishonest and deeply honest and good people. Is anyone surprised that these mistakes will require payment in some form or another? ...Nope.
No, I agree, shock and surprise are not credible here but you will also not find them here so neither is your amusement in my opinion.

...and for the record. Not bankruptcy filing yet. Lehman has filed to foreclose on Moonlight.

M

Geoff Easton says some funny stuff. "Moonlight was never a viable business", "when the clock finally ran out on Moonlight." A change in ownership will not mean the "end" of Moonlight, college boy. It will mean some fresh new investments, new energy and continued developments...not that a guy who shoots in the 80's at Butte Country Club could hold his own on The Reserve anyway....but that front nine should be nice for the rest of us once it's completed by the new ownership group. In the meantime, looking forward to another great season up on Headwaters!

aahh...the lens further focuses. I was slightly curious as to why his first response sounded suspiciously, if only slightly, Ayn Randish.

...Schadenfreude indeed!

M

Oops....Ayn Randesque is more appropriate.

M

First of all, I will not abide by HWSkier's near libelous slander. Though technically I did shoot "In the 80's" at the Butte Country Club, I shot exactly 80 three out of four days. "In the 80's" could mean, like 87 or something. Took at least an 8 every day, otherwise hit the ball pretty good. But I digress.

The whole Lone Peak area is massively overbuilt and is going to be absorbing housing stock for many years to come. I guess I was wrong when I said it isn't a viable business. It is, on the scale of Whitefish Mountain or Schweitzer. The pretensions to be the next Park City or Vail are gone for good. That money is gone and not coming back because, well, it is is gone.

Here is what I believe and we should wrap up this argument or just bicker about my golf game: When you borrow $100 million dollars, with resort real estate as collateral, at the height of a very obvious housing boom, you are going to get creamed. These folks were held up (especially Blixseth) as these titans of business when they made HORRIBLE short-sighted decisions. So yes, I do enjoy laughing at the zillionaires coming back down to earth.

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it Geoff? Pretty easy to say the things you're saying with 2 years worth of reflection behind us.

If you can look someone in the eye and say "I knew the financial system in this country would implode when it did" or "I knew the housing market was peaking when it did" then you're smarter than quite a few million folks in this country both honest and dis.

Lee Poole is so far removed from Tim Blixseth in honor and philosophy he doesn't even deserve to be referenced in the same sentence. The only people who held him up as a "Titan of business" are folks who didn't and don't know him and make some pretty large assumptions about him.

Blixseth was and is, first and foremost a crook. He basically pulled the wool over Credit Suisses eyes (albeit with their blessing).

Lee Poole is a decent, hard working, regular guy who, yes, along with a select few other folks in the company made some poor (and quite possibly shortsighted) financial decisions and now may end up paying a HUGE price both financially and personally for them.

If that's funny to you then laugh on. Just know that you are laughing as well at the misfortunes of some very good people who had nothing whatsoever to do with those decisions but who are inextricably tied to them .

M

Geoff,

I find it hard to dislike someone just because they have a lot of money, as long as they made it ethically. Motivation and hard work are what this country was founded on. It's sad that some people are just so selfish that, if they don't have money, they hate people who do. I went to college with the belief my hard work and determination will someday pay off (more than just these damn student loans).

OK, I'm going to do something rarely seen on internet comment boards: Apologize. I don't know much about Moonlight, but I have followed the YC very closely. Schadenfreude at those screw-ups is warranted, I believe. I was guilty of too eagerly lumping the Moonlight situation in with that. So I retract my glee.

BUT: The hindsight that is at work on the housing bubble is to say no one could have seen it coming. Many, many people saw it coming from miles away and I read quite a few books on the subject of easy credit and bubbles in 2008. I find the "how were we to know???" defense very dicey.

GE - 80 is in the eighties - sorry, bro. Just keep your head down and swing easy.

Again, you're talking funny when you say stuff like "titans of business" (is that from Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged?) and "That money is gone and not coming back because, well, it is is gone."

People with lots of money still have (and still earn) lots of money. It is on the sidelines for sure, but not gone (and certainly not "is is gone").

MLB has many acres of great lots left to sell to these folks, who will buy them in time, and build their dream ski homes. Many have bought and built, and may more will once the markets further stabalize and credit frees up again. MLB might not be doing as many pre-built developments in the future, but they still have hundreds of millions of dollars of unsold, epic ski property. They can sell that property with very little cost outlay, once the markets free up. Tons of long-term value there.

In time, MLB will be the best mid-sized resort in America, with the absolute best ski terrain. Definitely not Vail or Park City - no one wants that. Just a great small to mid-sized resort where people can have their long-term family dream home and ski the best terrain in the country and hit 450 yard drives on number 17. Just keep your head down and hope for the roll.

In Moonlight's stead, and with no intent of facetiousness, I accept your apology.

Indeed, Tim Blixseth and his cronies deserve all the scorn and Schadenfreude we can muster (as well as, most likely, a good old fashioned tar and feathering). It's his ilk that in some fashion or another put us where we are today.

And yes, you are correct, there were a LOT of people who did see a crash iminent. Unfortunately not enough nor in the right places to stop it. Sadly too many forces were put in play too long ago for that to happen.

Would Lee and Moonlight rewrite history if they could and save some of that money from the fat times to hold them through the lean? You bet.
Are they and have they been fighting hard for two years to make things right? Double you bet.

There are quite a few things that may come to light with this foreclosure filing that may illustrate further iniquities on the part of Lehman Holdings (or whatever amorphous kind of entity they've become). There's never just one side to the story.

You may have, HW, hit the nail on the head with your perceived valuation of Moonlight and it's holdings. Why else would Lehman not only demand it be sold but try and put itself in line for first "dibs" in this still shaky economic climate?

M

Geoff Eastman sounds like the kind of person I'd like to sit down and have a cold one with. Why do so many contributors have to act like they know everything? These comment boards are really something.

I'm proud to say that I could easily get my golf score in the hundreds if I could stomach 18 holes. And yet I'm secure with being an OK person.

So easy there, Shooter McGavin, lest anyone start talking smack about your flopping down the Headwaters. That is HW, isn't it?

I'd like to see newwest expand its coverage on the theme of failed resort communities and put together an umbrella piece covering all the failures from the Rocky Front to the Pacific. The last big resort failure, in 1974, was Stagecoach. A more recent failure is the Idaho McMausoleum 'Tamarack', which, for whatever reasons, has received relatively little press, certainly not much more than a summary in newwest. If you drive the west side of Lake Cascade and look up the hill at Tamarack, three words immediately come to mind: "Who needs it?" Boise's Bogus Basin and McCall's Brundage each offer about 800 feet less vertical, are more conveniently located, and more accessible.

HW, I have no problem with the pursuit of money and being successful in that goal. More power to them, especially the ones that produce and honest product at an honest price and build lasting value.

What has happened in the resort industry is that people were greedy, not honest, and in several cases didn't build honest businesses. Tamarack was NEVER viable (I grew up playing on that Lake, it never had the terrain to be interesting) YC had elements of a scam. Through in Promontory, the Ginn properties and others who took Credit Suisse loans and BILLIONS of dollars was destroyed. Not sitting on the sidelines, gone. If Tamarack was valued at, say, 350 million and now is worth 50 million, that 300 million dollars doesn't have a counter-party, it's not sitting on the sidelines, it is GONE. And a huge amount of that money cannot be gotten back via appreciation.

By the by, I personally believe Tamarack was a way of cleaning drug money, but that is another topic.

This ski mountain is one of the best in the united states, I have seen over 100 ski areas up close and lived in ski areas in Mt, Wy, CO, UT, Ca , I am in my 60's. Excellent snow and no crowds with truly great terrain, I found the employees at Moonlight very pleasent. Like a happy family. I hope the Huge corporate entity that gains control does not ruin a good thing. Is the Lodge and golf course at risk without the ski area? Or is it everything going on the block?/?

Pigs get fed and then they get slaughtered.

The playgrounds for oligarchs are historically profitable--look at Sun Valley. Look at some of the other lodges built for them by the railroad barons early in the twentieth century--some even during the gilded age at the end of the 19th.
But there are nearly 7 billion homo sapiens resident on this planet, now. The hope of the western world--the United States of America--has become concerned primarily with the privilege of oligarchs, and secondarily with the middle class.

Coolies, peasants, peons, and serfs, along with all of the third world, have been marginalized to a level that we haven't seen since the early nineteenth century.
It is only a question of time--unless we find another leader of the stature of FDR--until that great beast rears up to overwhelm all of our niceties in the typical sanguinity of revolution...

That's some good stuff, horst.

But, seriously. I agree with Richard. Having skied all of the top resorts in the U.S., my absolute favorite is Moonlight Basin. Great terrain, no crowds, posh, but not stuffy. The new hiking and horseback trails and golf course make it a great place in the Summer, as well.

Unlike some of the other "development scams by the greedy" mentioned above, Moonlight is a really outstanding family resort and I think it has a strong future. There is nothing else quite like it.

Moonlight is certainly a very nice resort, a favorite of mine, but one has to wonder if it is viable in current form without the development component. I assume Moonlight will continue on as a ski resort regardless of the foreclosure et al. However, what will that look like? Big Sky can get some shots for their "frugal" management, but they manage to keep going. I have to wonder if Moonlight can sustain many of the very nice service qualities that help make the skiing experience many enjoy: few skiers, plentiful service employees, low cost, ... Without a quick local turn in real estate, I doubt anyone can keep that going.

The bigger issue is how will Big Sky change? There will no doubt be skiing, but what will the community become. I expect that those who look backward for an economic model won't be happy for a long time. OK, let's look forward. Hmmm. The crystal ball isn't so clear to this interested party.

I guess what gets me about these types of development has nothing to do with the developers getting rich, or how they got rich. That's great they may provide nice skiing; I appreciate that they keep people away from the home hills of the rest of us. Come to think of it, if the comments showing on these boards are a representative sample of the Big Sky area, I'm perfectly content with that group staying put.

Anyway, my gripe is with the land fragmentation and conversion that takes place for these developments to happen. Yes, trailer parks are ugly. But they can be removed way easier than a failed resort.

Yes, I recreate at resorts. Yes, I will come to Moonlight and enjoy the hell out of it. And really, Moonlight just might have been an appropriate setting for a resort development, all factors considered. Maybe I should just take my comments to the neighbor's discussion board.

Yep Observer, a very legitimate gripe no doubt.

For what it's worth though Moonlight happens to be a bit different in that respect. The property was bought from the Plum Creek Timber Co after logging operations had ceased. That whole NW apron of Lone Mountain looked like a bomb had detonated; nothing but smoking slash piles and stumps. The state of MT actually turned them down when Plum Creek initially offered it to them at a fair price.
Lee and a couple other investors leveraged everything they had to get the deal done. Lee had spent a ton of time in that area hunting and ranching (he worked on a ranch at that time, didn't own one). So needless to say he loved that land (and still does) more than anyone on the planet. He knew they could do some good things with it.

For what it's worth the project is based on very low density development and land stewardship. Something like 83% of the land that Moonlight encompasses will remain undeveloped and protected under conservation easements. They've also done a ton of cleanup and rehab on what was basically a giant clearcut.
Developer yes, but an extremely conscientious and conservation minded one. He has to live here too.

M

I got thinking about that as I wrote the last comment. I actually helped build (lowly laborer) the first condos there in the summer of 1996 for a bit, and that's pretty much what I saw there too. I think of the larger picture around there: privately owned mountain, ski resort on two sides, already nuked etc. That's a rare site that's appropriate for building ski lifts -environmentally and economically. The Beehive basin stuff would have happened regardless.

And really, I'm all for building new ski mountains. I'd like to see chairlifts installed somewhere for the sake of skiing, not as a draw for building condos. We all know how likely that is.

Having met most of the players at YC and Moonlight I find most comments defending them hilarious. Sure, humble beginnings for both, but I am damn sure their assets are greater now than when they started. No one should be able to, no matter how, increase their personal wealth from borrowing money. Strict controls should be placed on these funds! Now, it was well known Moonlight was in trouble before the loans as many accountants and bankers in the valley will agree. In fact many thought it would fail sooner. Previous comments I made a long time ago were right on. I do feel for the employees there and agree that the skiing is awesome contrary to what anyone may think. Regarding Jack CreeK, while I do not live in Madison County I am very familiar with the road as I used it numerous times to get back to Big Sky. It sure is shorter than the Norris route. Always remember, it is not what you know rather who you know! Where did the money come from to get Moonlight?
Did Poole ever go to Blixseth's Mexico place and/or with whom? Were they ever in the same circles? Just interesting questions. How many LLC's does/did Poole have? He knew 2+ years ago that it could not be sustained, so why on earth would he go deeper? It was all about the cash, greed. While I do believe Poole is no Blixseth or even Dolan they need to be mentioned in the same breath because of their lack of morals and ethics regarding business. This type of behavior is what cause the financial meltdown. No accountability and take what I can attitude. If I offended any regular employees I am sorry, but I will not apologize to those who are responsible at both establishments and you know who you are!

Offend?

No.

Display ignorance?

Yes.

Because you have driven the Jack Creek road you feel you have the background to ask questions like;
"Where did the money come from to get Moonlight?"

"Did Poole ever go to Blixseth's Mexico place and/or with whom?"
"Were they ever in the same circles?"

You are priceless.

MLB-employee, if you did not see it coming you must have your eyes shut. That is ignorance! One might have been looking at other employment some time ago. Regarding seed money, do you know who or where most of it came from? I do. My point about Jack Creek is that it should be open to the public and not those pay to play people. It is a beautiful pass that everyone should be able to enjoy! There are a lot of priceless things in this world and I am glad to be one of them. By the way, what did you do at MLB?

Sharkbait,

In many of your posts you "hint" at knowing some privileged information. You slander the management/owners of both resorts with hypothetical inquiries about the source of their money, and now you degrade one of their employees who may or may not have anything to do with the decision making process.

You state you are "glad to be one of [the world's priceless things]" so please, enlighten us, what is your position/interest with Moonlight Basin/ Yellowstone Club. Otherwise, nothing you say has any credibility. You sound more like a burned contractor to me.

By the way, Jack Creek is a private road that navigates through private land. Get over it.

All of the previous articles about this foreclosure cite Moonlight Basin owing Lehman $170M....not $100M Where did that fact come from? Is anyone REALLY investigating this story.

A real estate development with chairlifts...hmmm...no employee housing...a real estate sales staff that lives in Bozeman....leadership who believed they would do a better job than their neighbor who has been in the business some 60 winters...plenty of buyers who bought into the pretentiousness of MLB...no crowds equals no money for skiing...great business model? Maybe all the property owners should divide up the cost to run the ski area and golf course...pay for it themselves to prop up their ego's and property values...and sell before the public finds out that this resort isn't evergoing to payout...kinda like the American Automotive industry....
Montana's always been boom and bust this just proves things have not changed and likely won't...put your footprints in the trail and I'll track you down! Saddle up you tinhorns....the hoodwinkers are getting away! We'll cut them off at their private jets!

I just hope those lifts on the northwest of Lone Peak go in. (Ha!) Like Mt. Bachelor where they can ski the entire volcano. It may be that Leaman Bro may only own the Lodge, the golf course and some lots but not the ski area. Maybe present cabin owners will sell at discount and people will move in and actually live and populate the basin area, now it has this ghost village feel with many perfect log homes with no occupants. If the lifts do run this winter get ready for the least crowded fantastic powder that gives first- track opporunities for days after the storm. Just take a trip to say... the Los Angles basin (20 million people?) and you see the value of an area like this. and they will not create any new ski areas in America for the next 20 years.

For those few that are still reading this thread, specifically Mike. For what it's worth Moonlight did not purchase the property from Plumb Creek, they purchased it from Blixseth. Moonlight closed the deal with him at the same time Blixseth closed with Plumb Creek on their entire Big Sky holdings. The state of MT never was offered the ML property, for any price, at least not by Moonlight or Plumb Creek. Although I would be inclined to guess that Blixseth did solicit them before Poole and friends showed up. The Plumb Creek land, of which Moonlight was just a small part, was up for sale to the highest bidder. Ironically, it's still debated whether Blixseth was the highest bidder. He was however, a string puller. Fronted by Big Sky Lumber, he was able to convince the the board members of Plumb Creek to sell to someone that would keep the lumber jobs around, and the legacy of MT logging alive. Chairmen of the board at that time? Ian Davidson if I remember correctly.
I know it's nice to think that ML was just an impact zone that nobody wanted, but that's about as truthful as Blixseth promising to keep the the lumber jobs around. I wonder, what other facts about ML have been twisted?

MLB-employee, if you did not see it coming you must have your eyes shut. That is ignorance!


I have never said what I have or have not seen coming.

One might have been looking at other employment some time ago.

Why? I like my employers and I like my job.

Regarding seed money, do you know who or where most of it came from? I do.

Nope, none of my business.

My point about Jack Creek is that it should be open to the public and not those pay to play people. It is a beautiful pass that everyone should be able to enjoy! There are a lot of priceless things in this world and I am glad to be one of them.

If you know as much as you claim to know, did you know this. Many years ago The Moonlight Basin owners were offered by the State to have State funding bring the Jack Creek road up to State road standards. At the same time, the State would have covered the costs of power, phone, natural gas and phone/fiber optic along the entire corridor. How much money do you think that Poole and partners would have made if they agreed with that and developed the entire corridor?

This didn't fit with their vision and they declined.

By the way, what did you do at MLB?

None of your fucking business.

What do you do and the Safeway?

Fonz,

First, MLB-employee said" you are priceless" not me. I am just an average guy who by chance happened to meet certain people with lots of legitimate info. Credibility?! Check the facts of many of my statements and you will find credibility. I was never employed by either YC or MLB thankfully. Fonz, good try trying to find out info about me. Blixseth could not do it and neither will you. I am not a burned contractor either.

MLB-employee, have you read anything I said previously regarding MLB? I think not. I have never said or implied the seed money was not legitimate. In fact, I even mentioned, by name, one of the original owners of MLB. As an employee, for how long, did you know who that was? He seems to be pretty proud and not greedy to have gotten out early.

Fonz, do you truly believe the owners of MLB and the past owners of YC do not deserve harsh words. Give me a break! Blockhead was trying to draw my identity out even in his own words. The truth only hurts those who have something to hide! Your statement regarding slander is false. Ask any accountant or banker about MLB or even YC and you will see.

For the record, I believe the state or feds open Jack Creek and there will not be anything anyone can do. Do the feds not control Lehman's assets with the bailout? It would be pretty easy for them to force it to be public. It will happen!

"For the record, I believe the state or feds open Jack Creek and there will not be anything anyone can do. Do the feds not control Lehman's assets with the bailout? It would be pretty easy for them to force it to be public. It will happen!"

News flash genius

Lehman Bros, declared bankruptcy 4 days before the Tarp bailout. They got no federal monies.

"I even mentioned, by name, one of the original owners of MLB."

So? you dropped Joe V.s name aren't you so special, even "priceless".

MLB-employee, sounds like you have some sour grapes! Who controls Lehman's assets now? Sounds to me like like you are determined to defend your old bosses actions. Where does that get you? Oh yeah, I almost forgot you can quote and your are good at one word answers. No news flash just my opinion and you will see. Good luck with your future employment.

"No news flash just my totally uninformed opinion. Good luck with your future employment."

Thanks Sharkbite,

Good luck at the Safeway. Keep the bathroom clean and you will have a job for life.

In regard to the question above about $170 million vs. $100 million, that is a good question. I was given the 170 figure by a good source a long time ago, and Lee has never disputed that number. These things are not easy to find out unless there are legal actions. I asked Lee to clarify the discrepancy after I saw the disclosure papers and he declined to elaborate. I believe there is additional debt on the property based on what I have been told by multiple sources, but I have no clear view on the details at the moment. I hope to soon.

Also, relating to Tamarack, New West has indeed some reporting on that (we broke the original story of their bankruptcy) and there will be more. Thanks everyone.