Trapping in Missoula
My Dog in a Trap on Thanksgiving Day
By Jonathan Weber , 11-27-09
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| The trap that caught my dog. | |
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It’s a walk I’ve taken hundreds of times, a trail that runs alongside the Big Flat irrigation ditch near the confluence of the Bitterroot and Clark Fork rivers. My nephew, in his first year at college in Portland, is here for Thanksgiving, and we were wandering along the riverbank just off the trail, with our two dogs nosing about nearby. Suddenly there was an odd “thump” followed by frantic yelping. My dog Rontu, a sweet and shy Norwegian Elkhound, had gotten caught in a leg-hold trap.
I quickly realized that I knew nothing about such traps and didn’t immediately know how to release it. Rontu was thrashing around hysterically, biting the trap and biting my hands as I tried to hold him still so I could see how to open it. I told my nephew to go get help, as I figured at a minimum we’d be dealing with a broken leg.
After a couple of minutes I managed to calm the dog down, and I stared at the trap for a bit and figured out how the mechanism worked. I released it, and quickly carried the dog the short distance from the thicket to the trail. I put him down, and he ran off towards home. Remarkably, he seems to have no broken bones, only a serious sprain and an ugly memory.
It could easily have been much worse. If it had been our other dog, a little Schnauzer, who knows what would have happened. If Rontu had stuck his nose in the trap, rather than his foot, he’d be in bad shape indeed. And who on earth would put a trap in a spot that’s frequented not just by dogs and horses, but by people too? It wouldn’t have been a stretch for one of our kids to have stepped in it.
After we’d gotten back to the house and made sure Rontu was okay, we returned to the scene to investigate. We found the trap - and, incredibly, it had already been re-set. It was no more than 10 feet from the trail, and about 10 feet from the river, below the high-water mark. It was probably set for a beaver, or maybe a coyote, but there was no tag or identification on the trap. It’s not entirely clear whether the piece of ground in question belongs to our homeowners association or to the property owner next door, but hopefully I’ll be finding out more about that soon.
There’s a fierce debate about trapping in Montana, and especially whether it should be permitted on public lands. Honestly it is not an argument I have paid a lot of attention to one way or the other.
I will, however, say this: whatever the broader legal or ethical or moral issues, whoever set that trap definitely violated the one rule that’s crucial to any and all accommodations about how we inhabit the outdoors. That is, don’t be an asshole.
You don’t need to a dog-lover, or a PETA member, or even unappreciative of Montana traditions to believe that setting leg-hold traps next to trails frequented by people and their pets is nasty, selfish behavior. In this case it was almost certainly illegal too, as traps are required to have identification, and contrary to what some people seem to think the stream-access law does not allow trapping below the high-water mark unless you have permission of the landowner.
It’s a horrible shock to see your dog caught in a trap, and at a minimum I’d suggest dog-owners need to be sure they know how to release them. What the appropriate rules are for trapping is a question I’ll leave for another day.
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Comments
What folly for us to allow trapping anywhere in Montana, but especially in public areas near trails where domestic dogs can easily fall prey to the traps. There is no trap check requirement in Montana. Trappers may not check their traps for days at a time. And traps can be set within 100 yards of a public trailhead. Your dog could easily run that distance in a few seconds, and be trapped within minutes of you leaving your car for a hike.
I really like the Footloose Montana group and what they’re doing to change our cruel trapping regulations in Montana---www.footloosemontana.org
-Jon Cheever
Let me know if you want help staking out the unmarked traps to identify the poacher and turn his ass in.
The trap is brand new out of the box, not dyed or waxed.
And as such, had it been set and exposed to the elements for even a few hours it would show signs of it. Particularly on the pan and the edges, which appear pristine.
Not buying your story.
Animal rights types have a long and documented history of engaging in such behavior to advance their cause.
I'm glad to hear that your dog survived the trap incident as some of our Footloose Montana members have not been so lucky -- they've lost their dog to a snare or a Conibear (a trap designed to break an animal's spine).
You may know that there currently is an initiative to end recreational and commercial trapping on public lands -- the Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Initiative. Call (406) 546-9945 for more information on how to sign the petition and/or help with signature gathering. It's now or never to put an end on trapping for fun!
Journalistic Research, a process whereby the journalist cites other journalists who site leftist academicians, and journalists, as evidence of facts...
My definition of journalists is people who say things they know to be wrong on the mistaken assumption that if the lies are repeated often enough the people will come to accept them as truth.
"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it.
"There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.
"The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press?
"We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." ." – John Swinton (former Chief of Staff for New York Times) 1880 speech.
Using your journalism "integrity" as and example of honesty is stupid. As well you should have reset the trap, stuck a stick in it, and then observed it until the person who left it there came for it.. AND then released the article once you had verified the fact it was set up by others...
Now the person will retrieve it in the dark, because they probably can read..
And on a final note journalism has not improved in integrity since 1880..
Any responsible trapper would share my indignation at an illegal trap set next to a riverside trail frequented by people. It's interesting how eager some people are to blame the messenger and the victim, and even event scenarios and allegations out of thin air, rather than acknowledge bad behavior and its implications.
Why not when it has happened with other journalists ? I've seen it firsthand.
Jonathan, the trap is too clean to have been set. I have 35 years experience both in the field and in policy forums. I can see that just from the condition of the trap that it wasn't in use by a trapper. It has not been treated nor is there any residue on it at all, such as dirt.
Dogs do get caught incidentally, but I'm not buying your story.
In fact I'd recommend an investigation from the MT DNR.
Then to have the trap RE-SET within minutes of the incident would strike me as somewhat sinister. Yes, sinister as in EVIL. I would hope that the person responsible would come to his senses and remove such dangers from the area.
Bill Taylor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU-KnolBrgw&feature=related
Why don't you brave journalists do and article about this nations let it burn policy, and how many of these same creatures in the thousands die by fire. Including birds, ungulates, predators, and all the little creatures, how about the bugs and snakes..
Environmentalism's agenda has dirty hands as well...
How about ski mountains, and trails, all those trees chopped down so people can slide on the ice for self gratifying entertainment. All those little creatures lost their nests and hide outs, oh the terror...
I worked special operations for 12 years.. If I wanted to attack and activity by people, I would take up that activity, and punch it in the mouth every chance I could..
Civilians are so easy to manipulate.
This blog is a soft attack against and activity.
The trap shows no evidence of being used in a set or having made a capture.
There's is no soil on the trap, particularly not on the pan or the levers.
It appears to be a new trap used for a photo op.
For those of you who cant see rust on the trap I urge you to put your glasses on and take another look. Believe what you wish but realize that you undermine your own agenda by making such crazy and irresponsible statements.
While I fundamentally disagree with trapping, I absolutely support the right of responsible trappers to continue their tradition. Extremists exist on both sides of the issue - but my guess is that the vast majority of people - both trappers and hikers alike would appreciate some mutual understanding and respect.
My dog cant read. What about a sign or a brightly colored flag to give notice to those who use the land that traps are in the area? As a trapper I would be outraged if one of my fellow hunters showed such grave disrespect for the rights of others.
We were not trespassing and in fact were opposed to the recent installation of gates and private property signs installed by the homeowners association. Incidents like these only support the argument of those who wish to close off private land to others.
We have informed the authorities and for anyone with the time and paranoia to investigate I imagine there is a record of our report....
I find it funny that some of you, would believe that a little boy (My brother) and a grown man, would make something like this up.
If you looked closely enough, you would see that the trap clearly has rust marks on it. What person would waste time to buy a trap, just so they could take a picture and write a article about it?
I find it low, rude, and disrespectful to put something up like that.
I'm 16 and I have more common sense.
Think before you speak.
I would suggest going to the next homeowners association metting and discussing putting up no trapping signs as well as no hunting signs.
Not everyone has a whole lot of common sense.
You were lucky your dog wasn't seriously hurt. I wouldn't wait for one of your kids to catch a stray bullet from some fool shooting at a bird or something.
How the hell would you know ? You been living in the u.s. corporation of depends for your lifetime.. This nation was built on Individuality and Capitalism, which has been sabotaged by environmentalism and corporatism...
Then what do the little sheople do, they curse their own Liberty. Damn the individualists and honest capitalism...
Who gains by the loss of Liberty-Individuality, power hungry governments do..
You might give the Declaration of Independence another shot jed...
Karl wrote the Manifesto of Dependence, seems you are confused..
PS. By your reasoning, if "Weber" is leaving all the supporting comments himself, he also must be writing the opposing comments just to get people all stirred up and keep the story alive. It would be somewhat reassuring to think that you don't actually exist.
So what if its my right So animals suffer so what?
(2) WOMEN WILL STOP BUYING ANY FUR PRODUCT!
You can COUNT ON IT!!!
If anyone reading this wants to help call the number that Anja has put up(above) and sign our petition! Join us and get more signatures, WE NEED YOUR HELP!!! We MUST stop trapping on PUBLIC LANDS EVERYWHERE IN MONTANA!
Tell your friends and tell them to tell their friends and sign the petitions. HELP US STOP THIS NOW!!! Copy this and send it to everybody you know...get your hunter friends involved. These traps are taking out deer and elk too, don't kid yourselves. Every animal in the wild is a target! Go to the Footloose site and get educated!
Ther's nothing wrong with making a little extra money trapping if your not to lazy to check your traps every morning and every evening, but who is dumb enough to trap in a residential area?
I'm not even going to dignify the accusations that the photo was staged with any response. I'll let the clearly evident patches of rust and dirt and grass on the trap speak for themselves.
I'll wrap up with a comment on what I took from this whole experience. Whatever side of the issue you're on, it comes down to respect, and whatever side you are on it should be clear that whoever placed this trap showed absolutely no respect for anyone who lives in the area or regularly uses the trail. This is even assuming it was legally placed, which at this point seems dubious. I'm from New York, so I really have no strong opinion either way. I do, however, have a very strong feeling of outrage at, to borrow Jonathan's word, whatever asshole put that trap there. It was an ridiculous show of disrespect, and that's what people should take from this.
This bogus story of 'my dog getting caught in some mean trappers trap' is a big bunch of poo. Then, to a humorous degree, I'll get my 'Republican conservative pappy and my wife and kids to post that 'Hey, this actually happened to Peaches' is a poor attempt to cover up the real agenda. These people not only want to stop responsible trapping on public lands but also on private lands and as a follow up they intend to stop all hunting. They start small with trapping on public lands but make no mistake these 'members' are out to take your rights to hunt and fish as well!!! Do you read me Ben?
Someone from footloose is.
I love preconceived notions and blame, I don't trap. A non trapper placed the device in this location..
Now I better keep and (eye) on my Broccoli pie and fried egg plant...
Please read the article again (or for the first time)
This article wasn't written to "take out your rights to hunt and fish." It was written to discuss the lack of respect that particular trapper had for the individuals that use the trail.
I can't believe that you continue to insist that this incident was made up. Perhaps you'd like to pay the vet bill?
As for the worry of a child getting caught that's just ludicrous if you ever saw a trap or where it might be set.
Also the same old lines of the animal suffering for days have been trotted out. Well if this is true the dog sure wouldn't have been in the trap long as apparently the trapper checks his or her traps on an hourly basis. Otherwise it wouldn't have been reset.
Mo Villa-Hidden agenda...starts small with public land trapping and ends big with anti-hunting/fishing. Read my posts. This is a fabricated attempt by a 'member' to conjure sympathy prior to the footloose initiative hitting the poles. Let me guess...Mo Villa are you poor Johnathan's niece that is just writing in to defend your valiant uncle?
Realize this Montana...these 'Members' are looking to stop you from ever trapping, fishing, or hunting again. They try to make cases and conjure sympathetic support by fabricating stories on small controversial issues such as 'Peach got caught in a mean trappers trap' so they can divide trappers from the rest of MT sportsmen and women. If they succeed, next they go after bow hunter because they wound more animals than do trappers. So they try to separate bow hunters from the rest of the sporting community with BS stories of how 'Peaches got shot by a mean old bow hunter dressed in camo'!!! Next it is the muzzleloaders or shotgunners.
These 'members' know better than to attack the sporting community as a whole so they try to divide us. Support each other is what I say to MT sportsmen and women. Vote no!!!
god has plenty to do with it. your a discrace to all us trappers and your trying to divide us. your not a real trapper. your a want a be.
I've heard of the traps that were set in the s. Kalispell area also. What a disgusting hobby. Thanks for the information and phone # for the initiative. I will definately call them, and pass this # on.
Forest terrorism, that's exactly what this behavior is. Hey we're fighting fanatics just like you boys overseas!
Don't go off getting whiny about the violent lefties or whatever you learned on Pox News. You know Obama's probably behind this anyway.
Your very presence in the forest is a great danger to all other users, watch out. You've pissed off WAY too many others.
" The Indian [was thought] as less than human and worthy only of extermination. We did shoot down defenseless men, and women and children at places like Camp Grant, Sand Creek, and Wounded Knee. We did feed strychnine to red warriors. We did set whole villages of people out naked to freeze in the iron cold of Montana winters. And we did confine thousands in what amounted to concentration camps. Wellman, The Indian Wars of the West, 1934" WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND.. It just takes governments longer to do it these days...
Today gatherer harvester humans are considered to be less than human.. Because they trap, hunt and fish.. While those "Advanced Degrees" and technologically University trained and "Superior Intellects" frown down their long noses at them... To funny..
Nothing ever changes.. Society self destructs and takes the real naturalists down with them... See real history, not your government public indoctrination tainted versions..
To who ever set up this little trap sequence to sabotage others, nice try.. Liars win in America today..
i continue to await comment from the Trappers Association or other trapping defenders that will acknowledge the obvious - traps in places that are frequented by people and pets are not appropriate. And/ or, perhaps some kind of notification system so that people know traps are in the area? Why can't we talk about solutions?
The point of sharing the story was to raise awareness of the issue, because I think most people are not aware that their dog could be caught in a trap and would not know what to do if it happened. I'm not against trapping per se, though this thread may be convincing me otherwise.
I hope we can have a conversation about these issues. If not, we're going to shut the thread down.
I think the practice of trapping and hunting will end, but it will not end because of someone sitting in Washington DC, or because of those of us who are against the use of guns by irresponsible, uneducated and inexperienced fools. A couple of days ago a slob shot a deer at the intersection or Conrad Drive and Willow Glen. Didn't hear yet if they caught him, but they did get a good description of his big red truck.
This will be why you will lose your "hunting/trapping rights". When you know of incidents like this, and those who have committed these acts and do not turn them in, well, you're aiding them in ending your sport.
Footloose can advertise here, and that is ok. Any defense of a centuries old practice is considered to be lunatic paranoids and sociopaths.
Then "American" Mr. Weber threatens censor, even offers to take his ball and go home because he don't like the game...
Why are you removing individual's posts from this thread? Several posts have disappeared and interestingly enough they are ones which are not supportive of you. Interesting to say the least. Are you going to remove this post as well?
It is difficult to talk solutions over a staged event. You want real dialog, next time present a real story. You are a footloose member and supporter who fabricated a story for the political purpose of conjuring support for the public land trapping ban initiative. Real solutions come from real people who present real information.
The idea that the event was staged is exactly what I am referring to above - lunatic, paranoid conspiracy theory. If you want to argue the issues, great. But if you start by calling me a fraud, well, hard to have a conversation around that.
By the way, how about some real names here from people who are so eager to slander me?
Hardy har...
http://trappingtoday.com/index.php/category/fur-prices/
I don't doubt you and your dog are victims here.. But groups historically use such tactics to sabotage one another. It could be a novice beginner as well.. The problem is this is a very hot topic, both sides are passionate, both sides are right and wrong..Ultimately more laws and restrictions end up being the answer, then agenda types seek another form of human activity to attack, a few screw ups cause some problems so lets punish everyone who partakes in the practice at hand, that is unAmerican and stupid to fall for this and allow it to happen.. Conspiracy's per say are not theory's they in fact are reality. Lets not forget you are a journalist, unless you are a licensed shrink you might stop jumping onto the band wagon that others are insane lunatic paranoid types leaving comments, just because you lack knowledge in those areas expressed does not mean they are to be slandered either. You are a journalist, I am a historian and political scientist with over three decades of research, Congressional globes, annals and records of Congress, and thousands of books you likely have never seen nor heard of in my Library.. I suggest we hand cuff ourselves to our homes, then we can all find something else to bitch about..
Big beautiful dog, out on a walk on a perfect Flathead Valley day with it's two companion people. Dog died a horrible death before his people could get him free.
Does that ring a bell Hawk?
I have not set foot in Montana since the early 1980s. I also said here I don't trap. I rarely hunt any more. I live on the edge of the Frank Church Wilderness.
I have a friend who drives a very nice car, a jaguar, over to the Sun valley area, he is and animal rights activist, I am amused by him.. His car has and all plush leather interior...
Look around your house and personal belongings Mitch, own any leather articles, how about those shoes.. How many of your items are made from oil ? How many birds have been killed by your car while traveling down the roads... Even found one your grill...
Ringing any bells there Mitch..
Rings no bells for me, I don't believe in blood sports.
He did it to generate a story to garner support for the Footloose anti-trapping initiative. Footloose is an organization that is not only anti-trapping but also anti-hunting and fishing as a whole. Really they are anti-Montana traditional values. Unfortunately, situations like this have happened but it is a very rare. This story however is a timely fabrication with a political spearhead. The proof is in the photo...
We were just walking our dog - he got caught in a trap and we had no idea how to get him out. The trap was set illegally and frankly scared the hell out of us all.
I can assure you I am "Real" and so are our children. We are not journalists or associated with Footloose or any other anti-trapping group. We are just a family whose dog was caught in a trap- Please keep that in mind when you comment on this story.
I wish that someone from the Montana Trappers Association would weigh in on this discussion.
To Hawk and Coyote Trapper I have a few very real questions: What is your position on people who set traps illegally? What is your position on how far traps should be set from trails? What about hiker beware signs?
Hawk - my husband is a journalist who also happens to have gone to Columbia for a Masters in political science.... I hate to wade into waters that are apropos of nothing but it's hard for this wife not to take things a bit personally.
http://www.footloosemontana.org/
NO FREEDOM, how about posting a list of your largest corporate financial contributors, HSUS ? Sierra Club ? WWS ?
Mitch, I am not threatened by anyone, I have nothing to fear.. I did read the article.. Fascinating how you have zero impact on our world..
We know you are "real"...and even the idiots that are attacking and accusing you know this.
There is no defense for the trap that caught your dog. It makes all trappers look bad. The idiots know this, too. So all that is left to do is to attack you and your story. You will be discredited for having an agenda...all the sudden you will be painted as anti trapping, hunting, fishing....anti-Montana.
A lazy, irresponsible trapper screwed up...putting innocent pets (and perhaps children) at risk - and you called them on it. Now they need to attack you. It's almost like a desperate rape defense (you should not have dressed so suggestively and should not have been walking in that neighborhood that time of night)
These people are dumb and scared. No one believes their attacks. They don't, either. When behavior is not defensible, then all that is left is to attack the person that points out the behavior.
I am very sorry to hear about your dog, and hope that he and all of you recover quickly.
It's moronic to jump to the conclusion that the author staged this. He has an injured dog and multiple witnesses to back up his story. The rants about "why should we trust you, since Stephen Glass & Jayson Blair fabricated stories" are utterly absurd. (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html)
Maybe it is a brand new trap. Maybe it's some 12-year-old boy who bought a couple traps at the hardware store and is putting them out there to see what happens. My own brother did that a long time ago -- caught our poor old tomcat by mistake. The cat lost a foot, and my brother learned that regeneration doesn't happen for cats. (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/)
Seems like a far simpler explanation than the "it was put there by Sasha Obama to discredit trappers." (SEE http://www.galilean-library.org/manuscript.php?postid=43832)
Since you are one of those "part time" trappers Tom K. "to make a little extra money" do you honestly believe that makes you ok? You have said what no one else on here has said, its all about money! "
First of all, I haven't trapped since the mid 1960's when the fur buyers stopped paying and wanted to trade traps for our furs.There was no longer an incentive to get up at 5 every morning and go trudging through the ice and snow and go back again after school and supper and homework and chores to check again.
YES. Of course trapping is about money. Why else would anyone go through all that? Do you have a problem with capitalism? Is that what this about for you? Someone making money doing something you choose not to do?
I too have a problem with people trapping and shooting in areas where they can hurt someone, but I have no problem putting food on my table or money in my pocket as long as it's done legally and safely.
http://fwp.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=31413
Send the photo to Bud Moore, Coyote Forest, Swan Valley,MT.
As a trapper for over 60 years, a long time Forester and a Conservationist he will tell you that the trap was nearly new , probably set by a newbie that didn't know what the hell he was doing. Bud will also comment if the Trapper's Association doesn't.
Any violation afield can be reported to TIP-MONT on 1-800-TIP-MONT, that is 1-800-847-6668.
====================
Hiking, walking the dog, skiing, spending time in our forests has it's risks, we can run into one another at times and politely wave and smile, or grab our dogs who seem to want to rumble with one another, that butt sniffing can get risky at times, some people, though rare, get tangled up in some dudes trap line, usually their dog finds it, Dogs can run into other things out there while exploring as well, porkupines offer your dog a face full of quills, occasionally if not properly treated the dog can die from that as well, coyotes and even wolves have been known to entice your domestic dog to come away with them, once led off far enough they kill the pet and eat it...
Then there are also the occasional bear encounters, most turn out good but that risk factor is there, then we have the cougar, they like to sneak around and on occasion will kidnap the pooch. We meet horses on the trail, I have seen dogs stomped and killed by a horse and mule, There are several risks while enjoying nature, there is the rabies virus, tape worms, and other parasite risks out there, of course a little management control by furriers can keep this threat down..
Maybe we should ban all human interaction with the wilds and we can all be safer.. Oh yes I almost forgot, there is this possibility as well... Echinococcal disease in Alberta, Canada: more than a calcified opacity
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/5/34
This one is a threat to humans, although rare. The Echinococcus Granulosus is relegated to the areas where dogs or wolves or foxes are eating the intestinal remains of infected herbivores and then passing it on the eggs in feces which, in turn, the herbivores eat inadvertently, Man gets into the picture when dog or wolf feces are infected and wind up in his food, OR when he eats infected herbivores.
I hear tell them Idaho/Montanan wolves been meeting up with their Canadian cousins for a pow wow and little bartering now and again...
Big problem is when deer wind up with it, or elk as well. Evidently, the wolf is passing it on to elk and deer. Hunters, does this make you concerned about not only is the wolf decimating the deer and elk. They are also infecting them with a parasitic host that is deadly to man. Of course, this does not concern most of the non-venison eaters who are the wolves bed-mates, and would like all hunters out of the woods.
.And then there is that Wolverine, WOW, my favorite Predator, no really, I think their the coolest little bad ass walking around out there, you just never know what the dog is going to find out there...
Gawd those woods are just scary...
Your chosen handle says it all.
Never heard of the Beacon and I am not in Washington.. Apparently you don't believe in open boarders, you know, that's me looking over the fence into your backyard and complaining about how you keep your backyard.. Now when you shut down trapping, and move to hunting, and shut that down, are those nasty fire wood cutters next? You know those dead trees feed the eco system valuable nutrients and those wood stoves are stealing them.
And as for nuthin to do, I am tending to a wounded horse and trapped here so I can care for him because I kinda like him and he needs me to save him. Nope, a trapper or hunter didn't do it..
Woops
You said earlier that you only wanted to stop trapping on public lands...now your Freudian slip says you want to ban trapping altogether.
'Footloose' is an organization that is out to ban trapping, hunting, and fishing on public and private lands across all 50 states. You're proving my point and I thank you for it. Footloose wants to start small with public lands trapping and try to separate, what you feel is the weakest part of the sporting community, from the rest of the heard. Then, if you are successful you move to ban trapping on all lands, public or private. Next you'll start on something else, maybe it is bow hunting, or rifle hunting or more specifically bow hunting bison on public lands. Responsible trapping serves a much greater need than simply selling furs. Basic examples are ungulate and predatory game management (both of which are extremely broad topics), protection of human life, protection of livestock, disease management, ecological landscape management and the list goes on.
This story was based on the concept of an irresponsible trapper placing a trap where they should not have. The concept is real, (although I disagree with the validity of this story) and situations like this happen. Last legislative session a bill was introduced to make mandatory trapper education through FWP. Unfortunately, it was killed in the house fish and game committee. No matter what you do in life (play tennis or trap) laws are made for the minority. The vast majority of trappers (99% +) are individuals who have a greater love and passion for wildlife than to members of Footloose.
What should be done about this particular incident is up to law enforcement. The trap was not tagged, according to the story, so right there the individual was breaking the law. Did the trapper have permission? No one seems to know or care. Was the author trespassing? Again, no one seems to know or care. The bigger question is how to prevent the majority of future occurrences? This is best handled through education and regulation of all parties involved. Are the regulations on trapping near public trail heads and near public roads, etc. adequate? How could they be improved? Should dogs be leased on public lands? At all times or during certain trapping season? The list goes on for pages...
The solution does not lie in banning trapping and supporting the anti-trapping, -hunting, and -fishing agenda of Footloose and their parent groups. Rather it lies in the same direction of game management as a whole. To generate interest in conservation of our publicly owned lands and game we need to generate interest in the people. Legitimate, responsible trapping serves a legitimate game management need that cannot be addressed by alternate methods. Above all else it is a valid and legitimate avenue to introduce our youth to the principles of conservation and generate their interest in the public trust doctrine, the north american model of game management, and ethical, fair chase animal harvest.
I support trapping not as a method to line my pockets but to conserved our lands, wildlife, and traditions for generations to come. I also hunt, fish, identify butterflies and wildflowers, photograph all aspects of nature, educate my kids on conservation issues, and fall asleep at night dreaming of leaving a better place for my children than was left to me. I do all this though the concept of the north american model of game managemet of which trappers are an integral and needed component.
And with that I'm finished with this thread...
HAWK - I'm sure there are responsible trappers -- and hunters and fire wood gatherers. Unfortunately, this appears to be a case where the trapping advocates should be jumping all over the person who set this trap rather than the owner of an injured family pet.
The world is dangerous, therefore placing leghold traps where people walk with their kids and dogs is not objectionable. Fantastic reasoning.
One can only hope that you are indeed the spokesperson for trappers, because if you are, trapping's days are limited.
So sorry about your dog (glad he's OK), and thanks for a thoughtful essay ... followed by lots of thoughtless responses. It's indicative of the Knee-Jerk Nation that you can't post a personal, moderate story without being pounced on and piled on with ridiculous innuendo.
It seems like a few of these readers missed the main point, so I'll reiterate it again, and suggest that we follow it online as well as outdoors: Don't be an asshole.
Hawk, it doesn't matter where you are, you are not in Montana!
Still waiting for that list of parent donors to your cause I requested.. Sierra Club ? HSUS ? WWS ?
I might take up trapping some day, who knows, I may wish to make myself some new moccasins or gloves...
Hey and thanx for the elk and deer this last season, I enjoyed spending my bucks and time in Montana..
Many hunters oppose trapping for several reasons, including the non-existent fair chase, and the cruelty inherent in the practice of setting baited, indiscriminate traps that catch anything that is unfortunate enough to step into them. There is no mandatory trap check, which means an animal caught in a trap may linger for seeral days and nights before the trapper returns and blodgens the animal (if still alive) to death, stomps, strangulates or shoots the animal.
Everyone, call (406) 546-9945 to get involved and help to end this travesty!
To claim a factual story was faked is not only slanderous but dispicable. Fabricating lies and attacking the author is the right wing crazy way though. If you trappers want to keep trapping your going to have to protect some real habitat and dare I say Wilderness to ensure these species have enough habitat to remain at trapable levels.
every1 in the USA is growing tired of your fear-mongering and spread of lies and propoganda. This is not remotley about fishing and hunting rights or acess rights or gun rights or any of the usual squealing. Eberytime someone tries to stop a destructibe practice pn public lands you rightwingcrazies divert the issue at hand to a whole different realm. No noe is trying to ban hunting or fishing on public lands. It's like everytime one destructive, seldom-used logging road is brought up for closure you nutters act like they're trying to close ALL you roads and acess. Stop exageraating and crying wolf your pathetic.
I wish New West had been more active in the anti-trapping, anti-poisoning topics we might see more progess on this.
I don't trap now but did for many years as a kid. I would not support a bill that banned trapping on public lands, but I have seen enough to understand why a reasonable person might. My dad would contact trappers not checking their sets, or spring them if they were untagged or unsafe. He knew 20 years ago that the bad apples would eventually ruin it for the rest of us.
I'm sorry about your dog. I hope he has a short recovery.
I also appreciate the comment above from Seth, and Tom K.'s and other comments that take a common-sense approach and point to possible solutions. I was interested that Hawk mentioned that in Idaho, "those who practice trapping place signs, with trap design and time periods which the traps will be present."
If there were more common sense rules/ regulations in place, there would be far fewer pet/trap incidents, and there probably wouldn't be a ballot initiative to ban all public land trapping. But as long as trappers respond to incidents like this in the way that many have on this thread, their views are ultimately going to be written off by most people. Although I have never spoken to anyone from Footloose Montana, my sense is this ballot measure it driven in part by frustration over the "I'll trap wherever I damn please" attitude and contempt for the very legitimate concerns of many Montanans.
For the record, I did call FWP enforcement before I posted this story and an officer will be coming to look at the site and the trap soon.
In the case of Wolverines and Pine Martens it should be banned. How can you have a species on the threatened list and continually up for endangered species status the Wolverine and justofy trapping five wolverines. The biologists know it's dangerous to even have a trapping season on a species with such low numbers and densities but Fish and Wildlife are spinelss cowards who cater to and fear the various, powerful MT trapping groups. I dont care if you support banning all trapping in MT or favor absolutely no regualtion on trapping; nobody can justify to continue trapping Wolverines and Pine Martens in MT.
your a pathetic poacher.
If Wolverines, Pine Martens and Fishers are still trapable at MT despite their extremly low numbers then obvioulsy some trapping reform is needed.
i got claude dallas's number maybe you two could hang out, poach some sheep and wolves and then bitch about how restrictions are made and how they're trying to lock you out and how theres no gmae left cuz o dem wolves.
Hmmm could it be becuse of illegal, spineless poachers breaking the laws and destroying habitat and game alike.
Come on dude you admit to being an illegal poacher and then you wonder why people get upset at right wing nut gun toting morons in the woods shooting and trapping like it's 1850. Your not helping your cause.
Grand theft of a legally set trap line is perfectly alright though.
By Mike, 12-01-09
I take every trap I find in the forests and recycle them.
I knew you sucker fish would take the bait..
I was hoping I wouldn't see you here Kokanee, you are a thorn in everyone's side with your ridiculous rantings. Oh and Hawk, you still haven't seen that doctor have you. Please do so you can carry on an intelligent conversation.
We do not have to tell everyone what kind of people trappers are, you are doing it quite well. Carry on boys!
Trapping is one of the few if not only ways to control some animals and is a great way to get fur for coats, gloves, etc. It is also one of the oldest “hunting” methods that humans have practiced for generations. It is unfortunate that dogs sometimes fall prey to traps, but it is interesting that if wolves killed “cupcake” the dogs owner would not get much sympathy from footloose. Regulations should be stringent regarding trapping near trails, but trapping itself is a great way to enjoy the outdoors and should not be banned. When you take your pets in the wild you incur some risk, wolves, traps, etc.
Contrary to the views of Footloose and the theme of their ads, traps are not strewn all over the countryside like landmines. Trappers choose their sets carefully and prudently, and don’t want you to see their traps any more than you want to see them. Also, trapping does not occur at all times of the year. Even though predator trapping is open year-round, pelts are worthless in the warm months. This means few will trap during this time except for damage trappers, who are licensed professionals.
Also, according to FWP, only six dogs have been killed in traps in the last DECADE! Think of the number of pets killed on the highway in ONE YEAR and then try to tell me that trapping is a major threat to dogs.
where I can and cant pursue my sport as long as I am in my legal boundaries.
You have both hung yourselves. I have nothing further to say.
How childish.
first of all, here is the response from Brian Giddings, FWP's Furbearer Coordinator to my question as to whether there is a positive correlation between fur trapping and disease control: "Neither FWP or I have made claims that there is scientific information that addresses the relationship between recreational trapper harvest and disease control... FWP regulates furbearer trapping seasons for recreational harvest opportunities. Montana's harvest seasons are not based on reducing or controlling diseases."
Secondly, Footloose is the only organization that actually keeps record of pet-related trap incidents, not FWP. We have documented 20 cases over the last three trapping seasons, out of which 6 dogs DIED in traps or snares. These reports are only the tip of the iceberg and were made by people who knew about Footloose Montana and knew that we care.
Our experience shows that the more we talk with people, the more stories (some are quite gruesome!) we hear shared by people whose dogs went missing and came back a few days later with a chewed off foot; we have heared from folks, primarily hunters, who have encountered wildlife in traps and decided to shoot the trapped animals to put them out of their misery!
Footloose doesn't care about hunting but TRAPPING HAS TO END!
NoFreedom, do you also intend to stop others from using those mice traps, and rat traps when they invade folks homes, and pantry. Or are deer mice going on the endangered list as well...
We'll all likely hang together since we are so divided in this nation..
Call (406) 546-9945 or (406) 274-7878 for info!
Anja
We have also assisted many local communities and state legislators in introducing legislation to reduce or eliminate the dangers posed by body-gripping traps.
Traps are notoriously indiscriminate and pose a serious hazard to non-target species, including family cats and dogs and threatened and endangered species. Despite years of research, there have been no significant advances in reducing non-target captures in traps. In fact, research has shown that for every target animal captured an average of at least 2 other non-target animals are caught.
For more information contact us by visiting http://www.bancrueltraps.org or http://www.bornfreeusa.org
Pretty pathetic.
How could some group see this as a way to justify their agenda?Kind of like how PETA was found guilty of euthanizing puppies and dumping them in a dumpster, a year or so ago...all the while decrying the plight of unadopted animals. Sick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwYz_3VKWFo
This is why pets should be banned from public lands, they harass wild life and interfere with nature..
Thanks for weighing in with a reasonable response and a link to your web-site.
For example, in Arizona there are rattlers, right? And there are classes that responsible people take to train their dogs that rattlers are not to be messed with. The training takes. And can be refreshed from time to time.
This comment line is all hype by folks more against trapping than they are for protecting and training their dogs to be trap-safe.
No matter what kind of creature gets caught in them, traps are terribly cruel and inhumane.
For God's sake, be a real MAN and stalk the beast and kill it with a gun or crossbow.
Losers!!!
out of the 20 reports Footloose Montana has received since we started keeping track of pet-related trap incidents, 19 (!) were set illegally!
Interestingly, we always hear the same lame arguments by trappers when pets get injured or killed in traps: "The trap incident was STAGED....", or "This must be the work of an inexperienced trapper who doesn't know what he is doing..."
Reality is however, like Monica pointed out, that traps are indiscriminate, and will catch any animal unfortunate enough to be lured into them.
And THAT is the reason, Dave Skinner, why dogs can not be trained to stay away from traps and snares -- the bait has always a different bait (depending on the species the trapper wants to kill).
Finally, does everyone know how trappers kill wildlife still alive in traps? The trappers' killing methods of choice include bludgeoning or stomping the animals to death, strangulating, or shooting them in the head or in the anus.
If one of us were to treat a domestic animal the way trappers treat our wildlife caught in traps, we would be prosecuted under Animal Cruelty Statutes.
Think about this and then SIGN the "Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Initiative"... Call (406) 546-9945.
So why bust the people operating legally?
Anonymous accusations come from cowards.
... if the MAJORITY of trappers we have heard of are setting traps illegally, how do you suggest, we should know that there are trapper who are actually operating legally?
Besides, the public has never had the chance to decide whether trapping should be legal or not. This is what the "Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Initiative " (I-160) is aming at: To give the public a voice to decide an issue, that it is in my opinion, an anachronism of society and should end. The time for trapping is OVER!
I mean before you started ranting your self-serving, overly dramatic nonsense?
Weber's original bit on his dog getting trapped was thoughtful and reasoned. He actually laid aside issues of whether this was legal a trap. He was more interested in asking, "what kind of asshole sets a trap this close to a highly trafficked public area where kids and dogs play?"
What kind of asshole indeed. Perhaps the kind of asshole who mindlessly quotes snippets of right wing theology and silly aphorisms he got off some whackjob, fake faux patriot Web site.
Hawk the 90s called and they want your Montana Freemen membership card back.
Douche.
I just love the U.S.A. The United States of Assumption..
I mean before you started ranting your self-serving, overly dramatic nonsense?
Weber's original bit on his dog getting trapped was thoughtful and reasoned. He actually laid aside issues of whether this was legal a trap. He was more interested in asking, "what kind of asshole sets a trap this close to a highly trafficked public area where kids and dogs play?"
What kind of asshole indeed. Perhaps the kind of asshole who mindlessly quotes snippets of Footloose theology and silly aphorisms he got off some whackjob, fake faux animal rights, anti hunting, money grubbing Web site.
Footloose advocates the sucker donaters called and they want their donations back.
Footloose Douche's.
I like this rewrite to.. Thanks Mr. Robinson, of course my point is, only footloose has the right to use Mr Weber's thread for self serving overly dramatic purposes.. All others should crawl under the supper table and shut up unless spoken to..
Freedom of expression be damned..
Montana's trapping regulations allow traps to be set:
* 30 feet from the centerline of a public road.
* 50 feet from a public trail.
* 300 feet from trailheads (for non-lethal snares and leghold)
* 1,000 feet from trailheads (for lethal neck snares and Conibear)
Of course, these regs only apply to "furbearers" and not to coyotes, weasels and skunks, species that can be trapped year-round. NO regs apply to the trapping of these species!
Inate is a good word for so many of the Montana outofworkers who post to this forum. It actually appears that they have not formulated a new idea since they were born.
That is the nut of RightWingCrazy...
your heritage is poaching and killing of all predators.
Sounds like pioneer and now far right culture all right.
Great job with the war metaphor. Totally, um, relevant.
Can you honestly say you didn't vote for the guy who just got us into the nonsensical war for oil you seem to be (sort of) alluding to?
The only way I believe that a nutjob troll right winger like you didn't vote Bush is if you just didn't vote. Maybe you were counting your stockpile of MREs or tending an imaginary wounded horse?
Anyway, it's 2009. What kind of asshole sets traps, period?
"Ooh look at me, I'm a grizzled mountain man! See my traps! See my, um, giant pickup truck and my beer belly! I couldn't walk more than a mile or two without losing my wind, but I shore do like to pretend I'm a big man and wear my dumb hat while I watch ESPN4 sport fishing shows. I've got an ATV. I am like Lewis and Clark. Except stupid and lazy! And I work at Schucks Auto Supply. I am a retard!"
But to your earlier point:
"What place is it yours to decide where I can and cant pursue my sport as long as I am in my legal boundaries."
That's the idea. We want to revise those legal boundaries so you are only allowed to trap on your private land (in your case, probably a trailer park?). It is our right as citizens to advocate such new law.
On public land, weigh the rights of a handful of deluded, dorky Davy Crockett wannabes who seek to inflict pain on animals for sport against the rights of gazillions of dog owners who just want to let their dogs run around off-leash?
And I still bet Hawk is an out of shape beer guzzling smelly smacktard.
These other ways do typically require you to engage in cardiovascular exercise and not rely on your machines to move you around, so I could see where you don't know about them.
Skiing is one great way. The great thing about skiing is, when you're done for the day and warm at home at night, there aren't any beaver or coyotes freezing to death in a trap somewhere out there or gnawing their own leg off.
Although, you're the trapper--do they really gnaw their own leg off or do they just suffer for 24-36 hours before dying of exposure? Which is liberal hyperbole and which is true? You tell me.
I do talk a lot of Internet smack.
It makes me laugh, and then I get to read the convoluted responses from halfwits like you. Honestly, most of your points don't even logically follow. It's just word soup, like your girlfriend Palin.
Mondays are my extreme cardio day I have a 12.1 mile loop I do, walking of course knees are shot it takes 3 and a half hours give or take some days are better than others. The rest of the week I alternate between the stationary bike and weights.I coached wrestling for about four years while my sons were in school then it did not appeal to me as much when they graduated.
I vote Democrat but not the ones you follow you see democrats used to stand for something other than "free willy", we actually worked hard and played even harder.Excuse my digression, I am not going to let you do what you want on these forums without some grief. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge can see where you are taking us and the road will force restrictions on you as well. The group as a whole is too nearsighted to understand this you may win the battle (not) but you will lose the war that I promise. Enough with the name calling, you cannot even see that we could be allies but you choose to alienate everyone that does not agree with your exact agenda. So good luck with that.
Turns out you value education, fitness, and traditional Democratic party values. Sounds like you raised three fine kids.
I just don't understand how tricking small animals into getting their legs snapped in steel vises, to die slowly and in pain fits into the worldview you've described, but I am sure it somehow makes sense to you.
You didn't answer the question about the gnawing off of the leg or the just dying slowly from exposure.
Is it especially sporting on those times you come upon the animal still alive and struggling in panic?
I consider a careful aim at range within my abilities fair chase. Trapping is just sadism.
Some people call cockfighting "sport" and "tradition" as well.
You ask callous questions and expect me to entertain you! what is that will it further your cause get, off your soap box you are not above me or others, given the right circumstances you would do the same. You are only human!!
If you believe we are part of the natural order of things then surely you can see that there are herbivores,carnivores and omnivores you fall into the category of ? Trapping is simply another form of hunting that you feel the need to attack because it does not align with your beliefs. This country was founded on being able to enjoy our freedoms. In knowing that there are inherent risks to letting your beloved dogs run loose are you not just as much to fault as the trapper ? I know I live in grizzly country so I carry pepper spray but I also know that this may or may not be a deterrent yet I still go forward. I accept the fact that I may not return home one day and still find my hikes enjoyable.
First off I don't vote, because I am not one of the fools who thinks the Republican Party and the Democrat party are two separate parties. Those two wings are attached to the same socialist bird and have been since at the minimum 1868. Now we find ourselves on the verge of National Financial Default.. Brilliant..
I agree the death of any creature including the human is brutal, no matter the circumstances involved. I have spent a lot of time in Wilderness places watching life go on, predators kill and eat baby fawns, elk calves, they rip them to pieces, eating them alive, it is nature, and any where in the wild world nature is violent. Every time we step into those places we risk any type of natural death.. Man being a part of nature has devised survivalist techniques, those techniques are brutal, but no more brutal than nature itself.
I use ancient techniques of trapping myself, game trail set snare type, dead fall type, stout snare type, etc. etc. I have eaten pack rats, mice, bugs, rabbits, fowl, upland, dog, muskrat, spider, badger, squirrel, deer, elk, buffalo, the larger game I took with my own bow and arrows, hand made them myself.. I respect and have used these types of systems most of my life. I was taught them by my grandfather.
The white man has always hated me, I am used to it.. I am Apache and Lakota. I moved to Idaho after my 12 years in the Navy keeping you safe, or so I thought. I made special operations for eight years and did Hell Week Twice.. I gold mined with a friend in South America after words and became wealthy, I now live on my 200 acres in Idaho. Hunting, trapping occasionally, and training horses for white people who do not understand their horse..
My son has been killed in Afghanistan, he was a Ranger, I tried to keep him from going into the Military, but he had the way of the Warrior about him, unfortunately inherited from me, and he ignored his father, My daughter is a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine, 18 years now. She curses my hunting as well..
I left the Arizona home behind many years ago, they hated my as my mother was Lakota. The Lakota hated me because my father was Jicarilla. I hated them for being lazy drunken fools with pot bellies.. I joined the Marines.. I am also a mechanical engineer, specialized in miniature hydro electric plants. I retired at 48.
I never drink the white mans poisons known as beer or whiskey. I am a lean 180, and six foot.. I have traveled horse back in three Wilderness Areas covering 40 thousand miles in twenty years.. Now since I spoke of my son the tears still streaming down my cheeks, I must go sit at his grave.. Finish off my ancestors ways if you please.. The white man destroys every thing he touches.
It was not I that resorted to words of violence in this thread. I hope you all find peace..
Anthropomorphism is giving animals human attributes it has been around for a long time and is rooted in paganism. Some of the very people that are trying to protect the animals from humans want to give them lawyers by proxy how is this not insane. You simply cannot put human emotions into animals consciousness.
"It was not I that resorted to words of violence in this thread. I hope you all find peace.."
Kokanee writes:
"Another point you dog lovers seem to forget is how cruel it is that you feed your dog what. Dog food"
Okay so (a) my words are violence and (b) dog food is cruel.
Ummmm... Earth to Hawk and Kokanee.
But inflicting pain on little mammals is part of the great wheel of life or what the hell ever?
You guys are just out to lunch. Hyper dramatic, silly, and deluded.
I also think you're mostly lying about your biographies.
You're wasting time debating us in this absurd little comment thread.
Dudes who have done what you said you have done would have much better things to do.
This doesn't say much about my life, or lack thereof; but I'm not claiming to be impressive and dramatic.
Just a geek pointing the pointless cruelty of trapping.
By NOFREEDOM, 12-08-09
OH JAMES YOU ARE WONDERFUL.....no one could have said it better!!!
James you liken my trapping to a sadistic killer who does it for the sheer joy. Yet you cannot admit you are human and no doubt have used animals in cruel countless ways albeit unknown to you.
I believe that most hunters - trappers and fisherman are enthusiasts of nature. Many know more about the natural world than the average Joe.
Laws will never be effective for those who choose to ignore them, are ignorant, or are otherwise assholes. They're certainly useless if they cannot be enforced.
I wish half this much attention was focused on the abuse of PEOPLE. In Montana it is a felony the third time you hit your dog, but you can hit your wife four times before it becomes a felony. Why?
Most of you would be appalled by the things people do to their own children. Most of these crimes are pleaded out and the offenders are never sent to jail let alone put on the violent offenders registry.
I have been witness to children forced to wear dog collars and eat out of bowls, beaten, burned, tortured, abandoned, and starved. Thrown in bathtubs with live eels, raped as babies or young children and unlike trappers, I guarantee you that everyone reading this knows someone who has participated in this behavior or has been a victim themselves.
The debate on child abuse rarely garners as much attention as the abuse of animals. What a shame.
Happy Trails and Holiday Greetings
If this trapping issue ever gets on the ballot I have enough faith yet in the human race that I will give $500 to the first "footloose" clown that shows up on the courthouse steps in Hamilton the morning after if this turkey passes. In the meantime this thread needs to die.
I did read your post. I also happen to be the owner of Rontu who was caught in the leg hold trap and is the subject of this story.
What upsets me is the rabidness of the extremists on both ends of this argument and the vehemence that I rarely see exhibited when it comes to the abuse of children.
I apologize for offending you, but you do yourself no favors by your rude generalizations.
If you really want to make a difference it might behoove you to listen to the "Enemy".
Oh, and I happen to be a middle age woman who does not hunt or trap. I also happen to volunteer for the Humane Society.
Even to a casual observer, they argued, the actions of trapper Bill Hawk were hard to justify.
Hawk claimed to be using the trap for pine marten, a small, almost catlike mammal found in forests around the West. But seasoned trappers like Krause and others say a Conibear 220 is a beaver trap or a raccoon trap, too big for marten. Moreover, 220s are typically set in or under water for beaver. They are not used with bait to entice an animal, but rather are placed along the path where a raccoon or beaver might pass. Hawk had placed his trap, baited with chicken, less than a dozen paces from the middle of a popular public road.
My reaction is that this trapper was either inexperienced, unethical or ignorant," says Krause, who has an estimated 44 years of trapping experience. Each year, he takes 50-60 pine martens in the Bridger Teton and Shoshone national forests near his home in Riverton, Wyo.
"It was the wrong trap, wrong bait, wrong place," he says.
Pine martens are typically trapped with a Conibear 120 - a much smaller trap than a 220 - in old-growth forest far from development. Krause says he's invented a system of trapping marten that avoids catching dogs, magpies, jays and scavenging raptors. He sets traps in an 18x8-inch box with the trap at the entrance and bait inside the box. Perhaps most importantly, this system is intended to be used in remote locations.
You catch marten 50 miles from town," says Krause.
Not only should you not be trapping martens Hawk but your a lazy, lousy trapper much like claud dallas was. You guys have so much in common. Not even other trappers can justify your illegal, lazy approach to trapping. Your pathetic hawk you really are.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/152/4917
As for Jed...here is what I have to say to you: I was in the Air Force probably before you were born. In Charleston South Carolina. My best friends were black and we couldn't go anywhere together in town accept the dress shop! If we went thru a drivethru like MacDonalds in those days, she had to duck down on the floorboard of the car so she couldn't be seen, they wouldn't serve her. I could go to the BLACK restaurant in town but they could not go anywhere with me except to the bus station and even then we were looked at with disgust! My commander tried to force me to stop being friends with them and when i would not, they gave me an article 15 and i lost a strip! I didn't care!!! They were from Detroit and I even went and spent New Years with them and had a ball. So buster, don't tell me about Jim Crow...you have no idea what it was like seeing "WHITE MEN" "WHITE WOMEN" "COLORED" restrooms! It was as disgusting as trapping is today. And shows nothing has changed!!! Laws protect the blacks from discrimination but NOTHING protects animals and children from abuse! Wonder how many black trappers there are today????? That would be interesting to find out.
Since my dog was trapped I have gotten quite an education on the subject of trapping in the state of Montana. I visited the Footloose website as well as the Montana Trapping Associations web site, which frankly has more horrific video and pictures than Footloose.
In addition to educating myself on the internet I have personally spoken to several game wardens, as well as others. I would never want anyone's animal to suffer such a horrible death.
I was indeed naive about Montana's trapping laws and certainly the issue should be addressed. However -
Your statement to me was:
"Go back to your little holes and stay out of it. You are both rude and whinny."
C.J. your patronizing comments and lack of manners, as well as your inability to know when an apology is called for sadly undermines your position of strength and tells me you lack the integrity to move your position forward.
As Kokanee said, "you cannot even see that we could be allies but you choose to alienate everyone that does not agree with your exact agenda"
A wise man once said, "An eye for an eye will leave us all blind".
I believe that most hunters - trappers and fisherman are enthusiasts of nature. Many know more about the natural world than the average Joe.
And lastly: "you lack the integrity"
Since I did not know who you were and you had the audacity to say the above AFTER having your dog caught in a trap, I do not feel I owe you an apology. I am against trappers. I am against any being (not human) that abuses animals or children. If you find me to "rabid" for you so be it. I do not find this a pleasant way to spend my aged years having to go toe to toe with knuckledraggers, but so be it. I am sorry you find me offensive but in order to communicate with these cavemen, I am from the old school, you get in my face and I will get right back in yours. I am an old lady, yes a lady, but by GOD I will not back down from putting these idiots in their place....so having said all I need to say, I am done with this thread. I can only hope that the many of you that support this issue will sign the petitions so this bill, that is badly needed, will get on the ballot. May you all have a peaceful Christmas, I know I will and I know I am doing my best.
I had not read you last post. You remind me of my good friend George a combat vietnam veteran, gold miner, Mtn Man in the Feather River country. A good man and outdoorsman, who volunteerd in the draft after his best friend was drafted; but thats not the issue here. The issue is trapping reform in MT which is badly needed. We both like Wolverines, in Idaho there are still a lot more than in MT, i'd like to still be able to see on in MT some day as well as pine martens,fishers and lynx.
Second of all Johnathan I don't believe your story. C'mon I mean an unmarked trap, a trap not dyed, a trap reset before you even returned.........Man this has all the makings of a Hollywood PETA movie.
I have trapped for 32 years now in Montana and yes Johnathan even in your county. I have seen the debate coming from footloose montana and yes I know about the up and coming trapping ban to be voted on this next election. Yes I know the person who typed it up. Yes I know the secretary / treasurer of the footloosemontana organization.
This story of yours is nothing but a ploy to gain support leading into the elections.
I still say your story is bs.....but then again I trapped for 32 years so I know the mindset of a trapper......however I will give you this. In most cases excluding you letting your dog roam free it is a beginner trapper at fault. Just like Montana implimented an archery training course back in the late 90's and just like we have to take a bear identification test, I think we ALL should have to take a trapping ethics, rules, regulations and proper setting procedures and placement course before we can trap. I'd back you 100 percent on that but this crappy dime store novel of yours about your experience with your dog in a trap just ain't going to cut it with me. Your dog could just have easily had a run in with a wolf, coyote or other free roaming dog looking for a fight. Just remember that next time you decide to take your dog off the leash
I hadn't paid much attention to trapping as an issue before this incident. Now, though, I understand very well the vehemence of Footloose and other anti-trapping activists. If PJ and JH and some of the other cowardly, anonymous "trappers" on this thread are remotely representative of trappers - and I honestly hope they are not - then they surely deserve to have their pastime outlawed. The eagerness to blame the victim, to make this about the hazards that dogs encounter in the woods, to accuse the reporter of being a fabricator - all shamefully irresponsible reactions.
It's really pretty simple: there is no defense for traps set next to trails that are frequently used by people & their pets, or for traps set illegally (this one was both). Anyone who can't get that common-sense concept through their heads needs to take a long walk in the woods and try to figure out what is wrong with their brain.
With that, I am shutting down this comment thread. Anyone who wants to discuss this further is free to email me at or call our office. I'm tired of providing a platform for people to call me a liar and advance nonsensical arguments that insult the intelligence of any thinking Montanan.