Politics: Commentary
Otter Doesn’t Share Limbaugh’s Wish for Obama to Fail
You cannot be an American patriot, or a decent human being, if your wish is for our leader to fail.By Jill Kuraitis, 3-06-09
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First my hair stylist, a Democrat. Then Governor Otter, a Republican. Within an hour today, two people lit me on fire to finally write about comedian Rush Limbaugh’s despicable statement that he hopes President Obama fails.
“No, I don’t share that,” said Otter.
“I think it’s treason he said that,” said Hairstylist, waving scissors around.
Otter’s statement was heartening. I only wish we’d hear Senators Crapo and Risch and Congressman Mike Simpson denounce Limbaugh’s statement as well.
I thought it was disloyal, too, when Dixie Chick Natalie Maines used a London concert stage in 2006 to put down President Bush – even though I agreed with what she said. On American soil is one thing. Overseas? We don’t do that.
But just so we’re clear what he actually said, this is from Limbaugh’s website:
My hope, and please understand me when I say this. I disagree fervently with the people on our side of the aisle who have caved and who say, “Well, I hope he succeeds. We’ve got to give him a chance.” Why? They didn’t give Bush a chance in 2000. Before he was inaugurated the search-and-destroy mission had begun. I’m not talking about search-and-destroy, but I’ve been listening to Barack Obama for a year-and-a-half. I know what his politics are. I know what his plans are, as he has stated them. I don’t want them to succeed.
I don’t want this to work. So I’m thinking of replying to the guy, “Okay, I’ll send you a response, but I don’t need 400 words, I need four: I hope he fails.” (interruption) What are you laughing at? See, here’s the point. Everybody thinks it’s outrageous to say. Look, even my staff, “Oh, you can’t do that.” Why not? Why is it any different, what’s new, what is unfair about my saying I hope liberalism fails? Liberalism is our problem. Liberalism is what’s gotten us dangerously close to the precipice here. Why do I want more of it? I don’t care what the Drive-By story is. I would be honored if the Drive-By Media headlined me all day long: “Limbaugh: I Hope Obama Fails.” Somebody’s gotta say it.
No, nobody’s got to say it. In fact, having said it was detestably disloyal to his fellow human beings and the United States of America. Limbaugh is un-American and unpatriotic, and his statement is unacceptable.
Theoretically, Fox News’ Bill O’Reilly thinks so too, since he said this in 2007: “Now every American, including media people should evaluate the president and form conclusions. That is our duty as citizens. But this hate stuff, this rooting for the administration to fail in Iraq and other areas is un-American, unbecoming and unacceptable. Like him or not President Bush is the elected leader of this country. He deserves a fair hearing.”
I wish I’d written what blogger Jaime O’Neill did: “You cannot be an American patriot, or a decent human being, if your wish is for our leader to fail. You cannot claim to care about this country if you hope the actions of our new leader don’t succeed.”
The decent human being part must be addressed. To wish for our country to fail is to wish that more people lose their homes, more children go without health care, that families go hungry, that the elderly are left on the street when nursing homes close, that your own mother may end up on the curb with them.
Your. Own. Mother. The family next door. The children of your coworkers, Limbaugh.
Adlai Stevenson said, “Freedom rings where opinions clash,” an important American concept. But this is not about agreeing with President Obama. It’s about giving all new presidents a chance, and not just wishing he succeeds but helping him to.
Raised in a strong Democratic family, I was taught never to disrespect the presidency. When Republican Gerald Ford replaced a disgraced Nixon, my Army-veteran father was clear that we owed Ford our support and loyalty as he took over at a rough time in our history.
Dad said respect meant that if any president knocked on your door, you sprang to your feet and said, “What can I do for you, Mr. President?” You were deferential, used proper titles and protocol, and put on your metaphorical Sunday best for any and all presidents, or Dad would make sure you felt his pain and disappointment.
Not that Dad didn’t rant against the policies with which he disagreed – he was a champion ranter – but it was done behind closed doors at home. Discussing politics in public was done in a civil manner, and if someone got insulting or personal, Dad walked away.
When the Twin Towers fell on 9/11, through the years under Bush and Cheney and what was arguably the worst presidency in modern history, I wished only that Bush would lead the country on the right path. It didn’t occur to me, despite my intense dislike for him, to wish failure on him or our country. The idea is repugnant and shocking.
I sent my only son to war under Bush, because I thought Son could contribute something important in the campaign against terror, a campaign based partly on, we found out later, lies we were told by Bush and his administration. Did I try to get my son out of our military then? Of course not. And I told Son, unnecessarily, that Bush was his commander-in-chief and he damned well shouldn’t forget it.
What could Limbaugh have said that makes his politics clear but isn’t disloyal? Instead of his blog post above, how about “I disagree fervently with President Obama’s politics. I know what his plans are, as he has stated them. I think they will be a disaster, and I’m deeply concerned about our country. Liberalism is our problem. Liberalism has gotten us dangerously close to the precipice here. I don’t want more of it.”
Let’s be clear: It isn’t Limbaugh’s dislike of Obama’s policies which are disloyal. It’s his disdain for respect, his rejection of cooperation and the common good, and his awful wish for his own country and its citizens to suffer under what he hopes is a failed presidency.
President Obama has taken over at a grave and frightening time in our history, a time much more difficult than when Ford succeeded Nixon. He’s asked us to help him fix our country. He didn’t ask us as Democrats or Republicans, he just asked us.
Those who didn’t vote for President Obama: it’s patriotic to give your president a chance. You can’t afford to hope he fails, or so will we all.
Oh, and Limbaugh? Kiss my ass.
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Comments
That's all this is. Geesh, did any of the Bush-haters out there ever wish that Bush would succeed in his economic policies, the war in Iraq? No! They fought him every step of the way and hoped he would fail. Not the country, but his policies. It's the same thing here.
Jill you should do stand up comedy! For the last 8 years all we have heard from Liberals is that "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism!"
I agree! And I agree with Rush. If Obama wants to turn us into France... I object! I hope he fails!
As always being a liberal means never having to say you are sorry.
Oh and Jill the thought of someone kissing your fat ass makes me want to hurl.
America is unique in all the world. If you hate the American way, move to France or Venesuela. There are dozens of countries that bear no resemblence to America. There is only one America. If Obama tries to turn us into just another nondisrcipt European country, I not only hope he fails, I pray he fails. How can you love your country when you support someone who is tearing it's soul out and destroying every good thing it ever stood for? If Hugo Chavez became president,would you cheer for him or hope that he failed? That's how I read Rush's statement.
Why is it that hoping Bush failed was considered patriotic and hoping the worst socialist in American history fails is considered treason?
I argued that we should give Obama a chance. We did. He's hurt this country more in one month than any other president in our history.
All this stuff about who hates who is a load of crap. The information content in a claim that "all you X hate Y" is solely what it reveals about the person making the claim.
Good on our Governor for stating a mature, responsible and adult sentiment on behalf of the people he works for.
Who does Limbaugh work for? I don't know, who advertises on his show? He works for the people who can sell things to his riled up base. As for as they're concerned, there's nothing wrong with a "personality" who never served his country making fun of John Kerry's putting his life on the line in Vietnam, as long as it sells.
As far as George W. Bush and Richard B. "Dick" Cheney... I do wish they had been impeached and convicted for their high crimes and misdemeanors, to protect the honor of the offices they held, and the rule of law in my country. That's got nothing to do with hatred or disrespect; it's got everything to do with patriotism.
Limbaugh responds to what gets attention, so he's thumping his anti-Obama message, to the detriment of pretty much everyone except himself and the people he works for.
We're in desperate times, and if we don't pull together, we will likely fall apart. It's definitely a smaller job to abet failure than it is to cooperate toward success, and Limbaugh has shown himself to be a man for a very small job. If Republicans want to demonstrate that they can do better, I'd suggest Governor Otter as an example, and working toward deserving the voter's endorsement in 2010, rather than subverting the Democrats so they can argue "we're not as bad as they are!"
rush and his followers are like thelma and louise who when confronted with a cliff can only think of pressing harder on the gas pedal. (of course most of them have golden parachutes)
it is about time america had a party and a president who are willing to alter our course. rich fat cats and their little dwindling party have been given way too much leeway in this country for far too long. it is time for middle america to say enough of dirty wars started by liars and hypocrits; enough of an economy based on greed which only rewards the most greedy; enough of a health care system run by crooked insurance companies who milk it dry and deny all our claims...
all the rich fat cats like limbaugh; cheney, bush, rumsfeld, wall street executives, insurance ceo's, crooked wall street traders like madoff should be rounded up by federal marshalls, all their assets should be confiscated and they should be escorted to the border as exiles. if they wish that america fails, then they can go elsewhere to live their crummy worthless lives. they do not deserve any of the benefits of citizenship or our constitution when they have swindled, lied and when they have the affrontery to hope for our failure when they have caused and profited by much of the calamity which we find ourselves in. exile and confiscate - even that is too good for most of them.
He lost that support when he "spent his political capital," invaded Iraq and enacted far right wing policies in every aspect of the federal government.
Now the far right feels left out, and about the only idea they have left is armed rebellion.
When Republicans decided that it would be awesome to invade Iraq, predicted it would cost $50 billion, that Iraq would even pay us back that amount with all the oil money they would have rolling in, and the only thing American could do to support the war was "go shopping", a lot of liberals like me predicted that it wouldn't work it out like that. Saying "I bet this is a screw up of historical proportions", like I did is a lot different than saying "I HOPE this is a screw up of historic proportions".
Of course Limbaugh fans aren't exactly know for their independent deep thinking and evaluation; they aren't called dittoheads for nothing.
You're too heavily influenced by the Marx Bothers.
And Beavis and Butthead. ("Heh, heh, he said pianist. Heh, heh."
You state that Limbaugh said (quoting your paraphrase of his words) "...he hopes this country fails."
That's a outright lie, Jill. A gross, malignant distortion. An embarrassment to NEW WEST. Why do you need to lie, Jill?
Limbaugh said "I hope he [BO] fails." Is that so hard to understand, Jill? Barack is not the country. Limbaugh expounded at length, great, endless length, as to how he wants the country and its people to suuceed. How he thinks, based on examples from history, that Barack's statist policies will not help the country succeed.
This is called honest debate, Jill. Injecting venomous lies into the debate doesn't help. And telling Limbaugh to 'stick it up his ass', well---you're one classy babe. You have set a wonderful example for your son.
At least follow the NEW WEST guidelines listed for those of us who choose to comment. Keep your writing free of gratuitous profanity. Keep the discussions civil. Gross, intentional distortion of words is not civil.
Not to belabor the point, but really...
What is it with this infantile reasoning? Seriously? You sound like my children when they were 4 and 5.
Since when (your father aside) in the history of this great nation has it been a citizen's moral obligation to kow-tow to the whims of a President? Or the local Mayor?
If you knew your history (outside of Michael Moore's retellings), you would know that even the beloved George Washington (he was the first President to serve under our existing Constitution (the one Obama wants to rewrite or otherwise ignore when inconvenient)) was argued against and villified by various factions.
Jill, since when did it become "unacceptable" to disagree with an politician. I remind you 47% of voters voted against Obama. Did his winning nullify their right to disagree with him?
I like being able to "disagree". I don't like countries where people of your ilk get to determine what is "acceptable." I am reminded of Cuba, where over 40 journalists are now serving jail terms of 10-35-50 years for voicing "unacceptable" opinions of El Jeffe. Or Hoxhna's Albania, where the four people who voted against him in the election were guests at a necktie party the next day. Or the Gaza Strip, where, Hamas recently issued an edict calling for the the beheading of any citizen who is not a Muslim.
Our country is great, in part, because we are allowed to engage in the battle of ideas.
You and your statist friends will not make America greater by curtailing, disallowing, criminalizing, culturally shunning ideas with which you disagree. If Limbaugh wants "our leader" to fail in making into law his social and economic ideas, that's his business.
But telling him 'stick it up his ass'? Maybe that approach works on your husband, but really, lets not do that in public.
the question is whose america? the 5% you and rush want to succeed or the other 95% of us who you think should listen to some wealthy drug addicted draft dodger predatory loan peddling fat pig tell us how to think?
but as i said before, i couldn't be happier that the republican party is so bankrupt of decent american values and ideas that they have a power vaccuum so enormous and corrupt that rush limbaugh can be their spokesman. have at it rush. keep it up. the other 95% of america who doesn't listen to your garbage and lies will be happy to vote accordingly.
Really, why the 'kiss my ass' terms? You call Rush a "fat pig" and much more. Show me once where Rush has used the same terminology for any of the people with whom he has intellectual disagreements.
I think both Jill and Problem Bear exacerbate hate speech. Clean it up. Quit the ad hominem attacks. Deal with the ideas. I think both of you will garner more attention from those you are trying to persuade.
Seems like you are the hypocrite doing all the personal attacks
Aroud here, jack.
You should know better than trying to squeeze common sense out of a liberal. They've been so full of hate since the sixties and have indoctrinated their kids and grand children with it that they don't know life without hate for class or poltical party or anyone who doesn't think like them. There is no cure for it. They're on a mission. They don't know what it is, but they're on a mission.
Ask any one of them why they hate republicans. It's either class envy or simply because republicans disagree with them. Very sad reasons to spend your entire life hating someone.
@Tom: In addition to deserving impeachment for his crimes and failure to uphold his oath, yes, Bush was a dismal failure at President. While he was President, I hoped he would do better.
@Jack: Yes, it's easy to understand what Limbaugh said, in the context of it being from a vindictive ignoramus. Otherwise... provide us an alternate explanation. As a rich and famous bloviator, Limbaugh has the luxury of not caring about the common good, and can concern himself instead with ideological masturbation. (And if you're going to complain about misquoting, best not to make stuff up yourself.)
@Tom again: see my earlier comment. You speak nonsense caricatures about all "them." Ask someone here in the discussion if they are full of hate, and if so, then why. Otherwise, make a legitimate case for how liberals are so full of hate based on some observable facts, rather than providing your "explanation" as demonstration.
If Jill had asked my advice, I would have told her the column would be much stronger without that last paragraph. Nevertheless, if I were the parent of someone who had served in Iraq, my attitude toward someone who feels free to belittle the military service of others with none of his own would be more emotional too. The grant of respect for political discourse is not a blank check.
Finally, the self-marginalization of the Republican Party isn't doing we, the people any good either, and Limbaugh provides a disservice to us all. Obama has shown himself to be a thoughtful centrist so far, at a time of crisis that will demand exceptional leadership from many more people than the President.
"vindictive ignoramus"
"help all us poor folks succeed. because that is what rich hogs like rush limbaugh are all about (besides making 40 million a year)"
"rich and famous bloviator"
"it will be a cold day in hell when some dittohead gives me advice about anything "
"Of course he's a big fat, right wing, horses ass, moron attack dog because he makes good money, about 40 million a year"
"Oh, and Limbaugh? Kiss my ass."
Enough observable facts? Absolutely no hate or class envy here.
Don't try to sell your festering hate as righteous indignation.
Why do these liberal supporters of Obama spew so much hate, so much name calling, so much blatant cruel hatred?
Why do they not lead by example? Why not kindness? Why not patience? Why the urgent vile seething hatred (at least as it appears in print).
Really, are these the people Obama wants expounding his cause and virtues?
Maybe my readings are limited, but I cannot find such vindictive namecalling and frothing hatred anywhere on the right (except for Michael Savage on occasion). Nowhere do I find this hateful rhetoric except from the left.
It seems a sort of self-righteous indignation/aggressiveness. I read Jill Kuraitis' words and really, in tone (indignant, self-righteous, vindictive) they seem not so different from the words written by radical terrorist Muslims. Full of hate. Not full of love. Not full of kindness. Not full of reaching out. They are even (as seen in other comments on Jill) very PROUD of their own hate and personal attacks.
This is the face of liberal democrats who support Obama?
Ah well.
Even more disturbing than the frothing hate spewers is the total lack of cautionary words from liberals whom I assume do not have hate tendencies. Are they afraid to caution Jill and Bear Problem re their inciteful rhetoric. Is there no check on incivility from anywhere in the left?
Did you ever read Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous quote to Richard Nixon or Barry Goldwater? "Hey Goldwater! Kiss my ass!"
No, you never did. He had class. He was civil. And he had more to be angry about than a middle-class white mom in Boise---little things like bombs thrown through living room window.
Jill, please. Apologize. Admit your error. Take a lesson from Martin Luther King Jr.
i don't apologize to anyone who worships at the altar of rush limbaugh. tom and jack, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen. working people are tired of your politics. the republican party is quickly becoming more irrelevant the further it swings to the right. i am happy rush limbaugh is your spokesman. he drives more people away from the republicans than he attracts because the american people recognize a hypocrite when they see one.
if you want to keep on pulling your pants down and taking a crap on this post go ahead. just don't expect me to come around and clean it up for you anymore. you and your selfish worthless kind just do not matter enough politically to bother with. we have a country to rebuild now after your guy screwed it all up. your rush wants us to fail. fine. your little hypocritical sermons about civility are transparent as hell. you two are the most mean-spirited couple of cowards i have had the pleasure of arguing with at new west. thanks for the fun times guys and keep right on acting like sanctimonious hypocrites. it fits.
What's next, book burning rallies?
This hysterical hate is what's going to tear this country apart.
This is sheer entertainment for someone that actually understands socialism, communism, marxism, fascism, capitalism and many other -ism's. I've said it before, on different threads, and I'll say it again: You have no idea what you are talking about if you're ranting about "socialism" in America. None. Zero, zip.
Our form of economics in America has never been pure capitalism. Do you get that? Never. American economics has always been a careful mixture of various economic ideologies, just as France, England, Australia and any other European/Commonwealth industrialized nation have been. From the very beginning, when the federal government (and states) have levied tariffs to the reduction of monopolies to the insuring of banks (FDIC), we've always had little bits and pieces of "socialism" in our makeup. Pure capitalism is not a valid form of economics. It doesn't work. Pure socialism doesn't work either. Pure communism is a pipe dream that looks good on paper. All pure forms of economic ideologies bring their own forms of corruption. Only through mixing them do you get success.
America has been different than many of the other industrialized countries, though. We do lean more towards individual successes and failures to determine social class. Capitalism, in short, has been more of the mix than anything else. Now, however, we see the result of too much capitalism: the greed of wall street and the lure of big money by large corporations has led towards a corruption of the system.
Obama's policies are trying to bring the mix back to that careful balance. Are his policies correct? Maybe. Right now, however, the only thing we know is that the tax-cuts that have so enamored the Republicans have caused this country to be capital short. The wars they started to try to increase revenues, as wars in the past did, failed miserably. Revenues kept falling, yet they kept cutting taxes. Now that Obama has put a stop to it, all of those that supported the failing economics of the Bush Administration are caught flat footed and red handed.
Rush wants Obama to fail. You can read into it what you want, but many people see it as a call for the country to fail. To go into a full fledged depression where so many of you capitalists are busy standing in soup lines, shortly after you may have attempted to go "John Galt".
What I would suggest to many of you is that you take a few minutes to learn what socialism means. To stop and look at the history of this country and make the very very difficult attempt to understand how the concepts of socialism have shaped many of our policies throughout our 240 years of being a representative Republic.
Let me quote Problem Bear.
He says I "...worship[s] at the altar of Limbaugh."
So, pointing out Jill's blatant misquote of Limbaugh is worship?
"Working people are tired of your [my] politics."
"...if you want to keep on pulling your pants down and taking a crap on this post go ahead"
So Problem Bear equates the expression of (non-liberal, non-socialist) opinion with defecation. That elevates the conversation.
"You and your selfish worthless kind just do not matter enough politically to bother with."
I'm selfish? Im worthless? Well, now I know. But then why bother with me? Why get so frothed up?
My "... little hypocritical sermons about civility are transparent as hell."
So by trying to talk about the need for civility I'm really spewing hate? Hmm.
"...you two are the most mean-spirited couple of cowards i have had the pleasure of arguing with at new west."
Coward? I'm a coward? Mean-spirited? Who am I afraid of? Who exactly am I trying to hurt? News to me.
"...keep right on acting like sanctimonious hypocrites."
Uhhhh.....I just don't know where to start on that one. Honestly.
But thanks, Problem Bear, for taking the high road in this conversation. And allow me my one "mean-spirited" comment.
If the shirt fits, wear it. I'm sending you a brown one. Very popular in Germany in the 1930's. With other folks who adopted a conversational tone similar to yours.
Yours Cordially, Jack
And thanks Fiftycal, for proving my point that Republicans don't know the difference between hoping someone fails and pointing out, in retrospect, that they were actually a failure. And yes, opining that that the Iraq War is a failure (or "lost" as Harry Reid actually stated) 4 years after the "Mission Accomplished" banner went up, Rumsfeld told us it would cost $50 billion max, and would result in a run on rose petals does count as "retrospect".
i consider bush, cheney, limbaugh, wall street ceos, rumsfeld, predatory loan merchants and other right wing extremists who enriched themselves while bankrupting america traitors.
you have no idea how much anger is out here because you do not mingle with those who are not of your kind. if you got out more you would see the resentment rising toward the greedheads. rush is king of the greedheads. so it is only natural that we vilify him and his corrupt followers. we are trying to rebuild america. how can we feel anything but anger at people who not only contributed to the mess, profited by it and now when the party is over, you and your rich blowhard friends want us to fail.
apparently you right wing nuts can dish it out but squeal like piglets when we dish it right back. life's tough. chew harder.
You know you want to, you're a smart guy, right? Step up!
"Mismanaged wars"??? 50 MILLION people liberated, democracy given a foothold in the middle east, Iran on it's heels and tyrants driven from power. THAT is "mismanagement"? What were you hoping for, other than failure? That the U.S. would make a PROFIT? That the war was REALLY over oil and that oil would make us "rich"?
And Klinton deregulated but Bush deregulated more? Too bad, your statements are hollow and simple a$$ covering. Blame it on Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. THEY kept Congress from making laws that would have reigned in the CROOKS at Fannie mae, etal. And most of them are your socialist buddys.
What was I hoping for? Well, surely not an illegal invasion of a sovereign country and 7 years of internal strife that killed a few hundred thousand innocent people.
And the rest of your statements are nothing more that hearsay. If revenues increased so much after increased tax cuts, then why did the deficit increase with each one?
And you still use that word socialist like it is a bad thing. It makes me wonder if your use of it is out of ignorance or if you're just trolling.
You sound a lot like my mother. I spent my entire childhood having that kind of class envy pounded into my head, but I managed to overcome it and learned to think for myself and became a rich fat cat republican. My last job at the age of 61 was cleaning garbage cans in a recycling plant for $9.50 an hour till I got into maintenance for $11.00 an hour before getting laid off. This after everything from shoveling horse manure for $1.00 an hour to cleaning cespools for $1.40 an hour to 30 years working in foundries for 4 to 12 dollars an hour. Has it ever occurred to you liberals that maybe republicans are people who choose to live like responsible adults and maybe not all of us are fat cat bankers and stock brokers? We're not looking for a constant handout, just a helping hand when we need it and the dignity to get back on our feet and make our own way in the world as soon as we can. We don't want a government that takes away what little we have and gives it to three generation welfare families who are too lazy to work for a living. And yes, I have personally known such liberal waste. No excuse for not working except they can get more on welfare by staying at home and selling their food stamps and getting section 8 housing. All the while whining about rich people driving around in BMWs that they deserve to have too. I have good reason for not being a liberal and it has nothing to do with getting rich or taking advantage of people.
"I have mine, screw everyone else"
Such a low view of your neighbors, Tom. So sad.
Maybe someone should call you a whaaaaaaaambulance. You seem to need it.
Please remind yourselves of our comment policy -- which is nicely laid out here at the end of the comments. Any more violations and we'll have to shut this forum down. Thanks.
Courtney
I think Rush Limbaugh is a warthog.
I think he is a disgrace to this country and has been for a long time, I am disgusted by the thought that people buy into his trash talk.
I didn't care for Bush or the administration policies, but I would still do what I could to support this country. Verbally and otherwise.
Just what do you imagine I have that you want the government to redistribute so badly? Couls it be my job cleaning garbage cans? Taken by an ex-convict so the company could pay minimum wage and the rest of his pay could be made up by the government.
Maybe my mortgage? Now that I'm out of work and competing with college kids for the few jobs left in the valley I may not have that much longer.
What is that you imagine republicans have that you want so badly?
Could it be our sense of self respect from having actually worked for what we have? Our willingness to give each other aleg up when we need it instead of say go to the government and let them take from somebody else to give to you because that's why I pay taxes?
If you really want to help people,reach down into your pockets and give of yourself. That's compassion, not giving them someone else's. What made America great wasw people helping each other, not an overbearing government take from hard working people and giving it to those too lazy to work.
So just what is it that you want to take from hard working people? Their dignity? Their sense of self reliance? Yes, I've got mine, I'm in just as much danger of losing it as anyone else, but I'm not willing to sell my soul for an easy fix. I'll work it out, I always have. It's called self reliance.
Prove it.
Many would say that the American armed forces helped make America great. Where did their financial support originate?
Many would say that the entrepreneurial spirit helped make America great. Why do they need government support in the form of guaranteed banking and small business loans? Why didn't that free market step up?
Many would say that farmers and agriculturalists made this country great. Why couldn't they survive through the Dust Bowl without temporary help from the government? Where were the corporations?
Many would have said that Bernard Maddoff was of the entrepreneurial spirit that made America great. Everything those people had is gone. Think their neighbors are paying their defaulting mortgages until they land on their feet?
I love how people can take a 3% increase on income earned over $250,000 as clear evidence that it is redistribution of wealth, while never really understanding that those making over $250,000 also have far more deductions and abilities to make up for far more than that 3%.
So no, I have no sympathy for those at the top that whine about supporting the communities at the bottom through government programs. Medicare, Medicaid, SCHiP and so many other programs that help people, and then you have Tom that thinks that they don't deserve help.
Nice.
i am neither a republican nor a democrat. i am proudly independent and i think that the annoyance of the far left and the far right will eventually drive the majority of americans to become independents. i think that would be great. because the powerful wealthy and the elite from both parties love to get us fighting each other rather than dealing with the issues. that way they can slip stuff past us that helps them and hurts us without our noticing.
i am pretty sure that if i were to meet the folks face to face here that we would at least tolerate each other politely if not enjoy each other's company. but the nature of the internet seems to spawn a real spiral of (virtual) hatred which just does not really exist between us in the real world. i said stuff which was ridiculous because i thought others got a little carried away in insulting jill here. let's just remember that this is cyberspace not real life folks. i don't take it personally and i hope you won't either. i simply agree to disagree. but if i see cyber folk getting carried away i cannot help but chime in. i guess that is what makes bears imperfect. i have faith in america though. we will get through this better if we pull together. i realize that there will be big differences as to how to approach rebuilding america. we need everyone to keep believing in america enough to disagree even vehemently. anything is better than apathy.
Medicaid is something originally designed to give people down on their luck a helping hand until they get back on their feet, not a multigenerational entitlement. Same with welfare and subsidized housing and food stamps. These things were meant to temporarily help people get through hard times, not support them for the rest of their lives, till they were perverted by socialists to create a state of dependence. The American people don't need a nany state, they need temporary help to pull their lives back together.The government should help where it can and get out of the way.
Reagan's "welfare queen in a Caddy" never really existed. Not in the size that he implied. Nor is there any indication that "welfare queens" have increased as any sizable percentage that your invectives would have any actual target.
Do people game the system? Yes. Are they indicative of the average person that needs assistance? No. Do the upper class game the system? Yes. Is that amount more or less than the lower class? Probably. I believe I have seen the stats about that and the damage that the upper class does to revenues and to class warfare is much greater than anything the lower class could do. I could find those stats given enough time, but right now, Tom has ruined any chance that I'm going to do that.
Do both liberals and conservatives desire a more efficient government? Yes. Do they disagree on how to get there? Often. Do they have to do it with bile and nastiness? Not usually, but then again, not everyone is Tom or Rush, thankfully.
In any case back to socialism and communism ad nauseum. One of the hallmarks of folks obsessed with communist and socialist bogey men is that they prefer to fantasize their mortal enemy instead of doing a little reality checking once in a while. Beginning with Joe McCarthy and Henry Ford who saw Jews and communists hiding in every nook and cranny in America, we've had bare the weight of these right wing nitwits who fancy themselves libertarian philosophers. Basically, Obama is doing exactly what FDR did and had to do in response to a crisis of casino capitalism. He's having to restructure Capitalism in order to save it. Both Obama and FDR had right wing air heads claiming that they were socialists. Let's take the right wing wackos' favorite bogey person, the big fat black or brown halfwit lazy welfare mother who breeds like crazy and has a part time job at Burger King and another part time job cleaning an office building on the swing shift her entire life. What does she deserve if anything other than sterilization? Sorry right wing nitwits, she deserves the basics like every other human being living in an advanced post industrial democracy. She deserves basic health care insurance. She deserves basic retirement and disability insurance and a decent clean place to live. The private sector hasn't stepped up to the plate to solve the problem of services for the low income sector of our population. And they've had nearly a century to do it. Obama's restructuring of U.S. capitalism in response to what will probably become the second great global depression since the beginning of the 20th century is long overdue.
Again, my challenge stands: Name a single agenda item that is based in pure socialism. Someone, anyone. I can think of a few that might qualify, right off the top of my head. But then again, I can also see that the Constitution doesn't guarantee either capitalism or socialism, it is placed pretty squarely in the middle, allowing for gradual changes in either direction as is required at that time.
If Hitler came back and got enough votes, we would have to accept him as our president.
But then the brand of freedom we enjoy in this country is worth that risk. I guess that's why Jefferson said the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
America's Founding Fathers were American patriots and decent human beings who wished for their leader to fail. That leader was King George III of the United Kingdom. They wished for his failure so much that they went to war against him just to ensure his failure. Limbaugh is in great company. The way things aren't going for 0bama its highly likely it will be you who will be kissing Limbaugh's ass before the end of 0bama's 4th and final year in office.
And if you think America needs a fat racist worthless turd of an "entertainer" as a party leader, you really aren't aware of reality, Claire.
let claire hide behind her curtains counting her gold and clutching her ak-15 and praying for failure with rush blaring out of her boze radio about all the things obama is going to do to america. what a sad lonely, paranoid, pathetic, selfish way to exist.
and the last person i would look to for happiness would be a self-loathing blow-hard who is so unhappy and lonely himself that he seeks the solace of prescription drugs just to get through the day.
Nice try, FiftyCal. Please stop lying, though, and do your own homework from now on.
let's hear how you would describe president obama. i really want to know?
Polling data show that Mr. Obama's approval rating is dropping and is below where George W. Bush was in an analogous period in 2001. Rasmussen Reports data shows that Mr. Obama's net presidential approval rating -- which is calculated by subtracting the number who strongly disapprove from the number who strongly approve -- is just six, his lowest rating to date.
Overall, Rasmussen Reports shows a 56%-43% approval, with a third strongly disapproving of the president's performance. This is a substantial degree of polarization so early in the administration. Mr. Obama has lost virtually all of his Republican support and a good part of his Independent support, and the trend is decidedly negative.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123690358175013837.html
the country is sick of it and i am sick of it. i know i should probably just ignore the idiots but can't help it. it's the way i am built.
that is why obama is president. and that is why the majority of working americans support him. the far extreme right has taken over the republican party and driven it over the edge of sanity. the funny thing is the republican party used to have some common sense and decent people leading them. when i see things that you write here and listen to social outcasts like rush limbaugh spout their hate for anyone who does not worship money and power and greed and racism and mysogynism then i am convinced that the republican party is shrinking into itself- essentially isolating itself from mainstream thought and common sense.
i am an independent. i trust neither party entirely. but the way you and some of the far right republicans act only drives me and the majority of americans further away from republican thinking. and rush, a 40 million dollar a year entertainer, telling us that he hopes for the country to fail is the last straw. damn right we are mad as hell when we hear stuff like that from people who call themselves americans. the republican party better get some common sense and steer away from extremists if it wants to ever win another national or statewide election again. you guys who support rush make republicans look real bad. that is just plain old unvarnished western style truth. and if you don't like it too bad.
So this deal is when the left attacks the conservatives, all is fine, and when the conservative minority comments on the left and a President who is waaaaaay left, they are "attack dogs." So who is this James Carville, venal and angry and vindictive, I have listened to on radio and seen on tv so many times doing the eight full years of the Bush administration? No columnists were ranting about Carville's left of center tirades against Bush, conservatives, and the Congress. So why now, when Limbaugh, a conservative talk show host, expresses his wish for the programs of the left, advanced by Obama, to fail, do we hear this whine about treasonous words? Isn't that the whole program of the left during the Bush administration? Were not the last 8 years a lefty rant about conservatives, Republicans, and Bush?
The press, the media, can all be toadies for Obama, but for goodness sake, allow for dissent and counter point from the right, without undue rancor.
If the political reality is that it is necessary and correct to demean, dismiss, and denounce the majority party when in the minority, then we ought not be be even talking about Limbaugh. He has been given traction by the left. The more they wail at the wailing walls of network television news, the more Limbaugh's message is heard. Perhaps he has just worked you like a carnival barker, and you still don't get it. And, by doing so, proving his point about the left not having the moxie to run a bad case of dysentery, let alone the U.S. Government.
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as far as how well democrats are doing i guess using hurricane katrina as a yardstick for incompetence i would say they are doing as well as can be expected given what a pile of debris they were handed to them by bush and that pack of jackals that passed for a republican administration...
Over Spending: If anyone cares to look at a graph of the national debt from 1970 forward the national debt rose from less than 1 trillion to 10 trillion at present. Under Nixon, Ford and Carter combined the national debt rose from under a trillion to about 1 trillion. Under 8 years of Reagan the national debt rose from about 1 trillion to just under 3 trillion. 4 years of Bush I, the debt rose from just under 3 trillion to about 4.5 trillion. 8 years of Clinton increased the debt from about 4.5 trillion to just under 6 trillion. Under Bush the baby the national debt increased from just under 6 trillion to about 10 trillion and rising rapidly.
Socialism & Capitalism Mix: Despite all the heated rhetoric, numbers tell the true story. Total government spending as a percent of GDP for EU countries, about 47 percent. Total government spending for U.S., about 40 percent of GDP and rising rapidly.
The U.S. system is superior to all those F----n Socialist countries: Well let's take Canada for example. In 2008, the World Economic Forum ranked Canada's banking system the healthiest in the world. America's ranked 40th, Britain 44th. Alone in the industrialized world, Canada hasn't had a single bank failure in the most recent global financial collapse because government regulators only allowed Canadian Banks to be leveraged less than 18 to 1 debt to risk ratio. 68 percent of both Americans and Canadians own their own homes. After the collapse, Canadian banks began to grow while most other world banks have begun to shrink or disappear. American car companies have moved so many jobs to Canada to take advantage of lower health care costs that Ontario has become North America's largest car producing region. 120 Americans are forced into bankruptcy everyday due to health care bills. None of the so called socialist countries permit this condition to exist. Yet all these socialist countries spend less of their GDP on health care by far than the U.S. Life expectancy in Canada is 81 years verses 78 in the U.S. In the next decade U.S. government spending as a percent of GDP is due to become the same as the so called socialist countries so despised by Fat Cat Limbaugh, but if we don't get our act together and reform our system, we're going to remain the most dumb ass socialist country of them all.