From the linked story:

"We made the (snare) loop too big, and it caught him around the waist, and he was able to chew it off," he said. "

Holy crap. Imagine the intense suffering that wolf went through before managing to chew the snare off. And imagine what he would have gone through if he had not managed to chew through the snare and instead just had that wire slowly cutting through his abdomen.

And they call this "sport."

What about issuing BOW-only permits ,no electronic calling devices.This would provide a REAL HUNT for REAL HUNTERS and a sporting chance for the wolves.Can it be that the hunters want an easy prize or are they just sporting goods hunters?

These hunts are management tools that biologists depend on to achieve target populations. Last years hunts proved very difficult for hunters, as the quota wasn't met. With this years quota increase, a more liberal season is necesssaey to achieve management objectives.
These hunts are rooted in management, and are not just for pleasure or the enjoyment of killing. Rural Montana and Idaho residents realize the necessity of management, but unfortunately it's very difficult for outsider's to understand the implications of overly-prolific wolves in an area where humans still depend on the land for survival.
It's important to support the management of wolves through harvest, as such protection from Fish and Game agencies ensures long term viability of the species.

Yep, I betcha that wolf was really stressed out having that cable around it's waste, probably not as stressed out as a pregnant cow elk down on the ground with her guts ripped out her belly and her calf ripped out of her while she bled out and struggled for five to fifteen minutes of she were lucky, I've witnessed mangled elk cows and calves last 24 hours in that predicament before dying.. Poor wolves.

Sawtooth-

I always am puzzled by people who try to defend ethical barbarities based on what other animals do. Wolves cannot make ethical decisions. Humans can. For example, I'm not morally justified in torturing my cat because she caught a lizard and took an hour to kill it.

The same people who commit the logical error of the naturalistic fallacy are usually the same ones who most loudly proclaim the superiority of humans over other animals...

Lax: Did you actually read the article before commenting? It seems the whole point is that the hunt is NOT based on biology. As for predator control, that goes on with or w/o the hunt, in a much more targeted manner, so depradation is really not the rationale for the hunt either. Personally, and based on my impressions from talking with FWP reps, I think the rationale for the hunt is that it brings in hundreds of thousands of dollars to FWP while appeasing the perceptions of lazy hunters that wolves are somehow decimating elk.

Chris Waller,

I'm always amazed as well, especially when ethically minded humans fail to use their powers of reason to control predators so as to give herbivores the opportunity to exist as well.

Now I cannot speak for where George is looking from and at what he is looking at, nor for you or Woodman, But I can speak for the Sawtooth and Frank Church Wilderness areas of Idaho, where I live smack between those areas, and it appears to me George and others don't know what the hell they're talking about.

As far as calling hunters lazy... What ever. I'd enjoy watching you two put together a pack string, and keep it together for six weeks while living in the saddle. " Lazy " You betcha.

The main purpose of the 2010 wolf hunt is to decrease the population of wolves in certain places. Claiming monetary gains as the driving force behind such hunts is partially right, but money isn't why these hunts are being held. Biologists wish to see wolf numbers decreased in some areas to relieve pressure on suppressed elk populations and to alleviate higher than normal instances of livestock predation. This is the main reason for these wolf hunts.

There are so many people that refuse to believe that wolves can be managed like other predators. They wish to see wolves protected indefinitely with no lethal means of management, mainly because they are beautiful and majestic. Luckily these individuals aren't in charge of implementing policy and aren't entrusted with protecting our wildlife. Luckily.

Proper management is not only lucrative, it allows managers to ensure that all elements of the ecosystem are balanced. With the capability to perpetuate biological health comes the responsibility to do so. Wolves can be managed successfully if the environmental groups stoo sueing, and if managers are allowed to manage.
(Look at the success of wolf management in Alaska and Canada, where wolves dominate the countryside and hunting seasons are VERY liberal)

Sawtooth rider is a guy by the name of Greg Farber. He is a right wing anti-wolf nutjob. He has said he would like to see all wolves in Idaho exterminated.

Sawtooth rider is a right wing anti-wolf nutjob? NO! Don't tell me that; I can't take it! NO, say it isn't so! I've always so looked forward to his deep probing intellect and witty banter. Right wing? Anti-wolf? Nutjob? I'd have never guessed any of it. From his comments, he's always seemed like just a normal one-eyed, gap-toothed, redneck, illiterate, cracker trash pedophile.

Always nice to see the "rightwing nut jobs" attacked in print by the compassionate, civil left. Intimidated any voters this week, Lefty? Lied about an issue in front of Congress? Gotten enough little old ladies to contribute to your "saving" of the earth this month? Taken any jet flights to rail against fossil fuels? Found any new noses to cut off to spite your face?

The issue with wolves is that they don't have any science to fall back on. Just innate behavior. The dna thing. They kill to eat, kill for sport, and kill just because they are wolves. And they are compressed onto less land than they evolved with because the civil, compassionate left has to have coffee shops, mass transit, green buildings, and a place to crap. Descartes said it pretty well, about our civil, compassionate, environmental protectors, when he said you could doubt it all, including your own existence, but in doing so, you proved it. And by castigating all who provide the sustenance, raw material, rare earths, fuel and food, building materials and clothing, so that the left might find refuge in the universities, NGOs, all those places forgiven the duty to pay taxes to support the left wing government of entitlements and compassion, of give aways and spending money othe people's money, the very foundation of government they don't have to provide for, all that happens is the caring, compassionate left leaves ruin and waste in its path, as sure as those who they hate. Their hate proves their use of resources, their existence.

This deal of standing in your safe zone calling people names is that someday the safe zone won't be there, and you will get your deserved poke in the snot locker. That seems to be the US fate across the world.

I am of the understanding that a duly elected government is in charge of wolves, and the wolves have defenders using tax payer money to protect their every right as a species. This is the government holding hunting seasons to control wolves, to create an atmosphere of not wanting to be social with humans (oh, forgive me Kevin Kostner), to keep wolves in their designated habitat (as a left leaning government feels it needs to do for humans), secure and with food aplenty. It is practical to have the schools open all summer to feed the children free meals. I don't think it is a good idea to invite the wolves. They must fend for themselves, unlike humans. We are entitled, now from birth, to a free lunch paid for by someone else, or paid for by just printing money. Whatever works. Wolves will have to get better representation in Congress. Someone to earmark their nutritional needs in some obscure finance bill.

Meanwhile, in the mean forests, those places of cruelties we only see in humans in third world religious zealots, wolves need to learn to avoid humans, at all costs, because to not avoid them can be fatal. It has worked for the world for a long time. As long as wolves are not eating people or livestock, they are tolerated. Fear is what produces that kind of wolf. Fear of humans who can and will kill them. And it works for livestock and game. The wolves don't get to kill them all. All because of human intervention. Say!!! Isn't that how the wolves got here this time? Human intervention. Planted like petunias in the summer flower bed. Fertilized by legal protections and fed with public game and private livestock. Time to prune. Keep order in the garden of Eden. Even if it is not possible among humans.

sounds like bearbait wants to prune some humans.

sawtooth:
how did herbivores manage to survive for thousands of years before humans had the ability to manage all other predators? you have a lot of empathy for elk. does this mean we should outlaw elk hunting? i'll make a wild guess that many more elk are killed every year by people than by wolves. just a guess.

"make a wild guess that many more elk are killed every year by people than by wolves. just a guess."

Maybe in the past, but not in the very near future.
In SOME areas, wolves are decimating elk populations, that is an undisputable fact.
The wolves need to be managed, they were re-introduced by humans and need managed by humans.
If anyone would take the time to research wolf hunting, when a wolf, or a wolf pack starts being hunted, it/they become much more wary of humans, and will be seen less and less.
A quota of 186 does not mean 186 wolves will be killed by hunters.

"while appeasing the perceptions of lazy hunters that wolves are somehow decimating elk."

Wolves are decimating a lot of elk herds.
Saying all hunters are lazy is equal to saying all on the left are communists.

Wolves are decimating a lot of elk herds.

This is what they are supposed to do. I mean do you have any idea about reality? They are only doing wrong in your eyes because all you care about is hunting an elk.

One way to solve some of the wide gap between those who are paying for the wolf introduction and those who want ever more wolves, would be for all of those who insist on more wolves and full protection to sign up with full info including bank account numbers, then when livestock is killed it will be randomly taken from those who think it is worth it and given to the person suffering the loss, just like the wolves destroy private property randomly.
It is unAmerican to force other folks to pay the cost of your entertainment, and wolves are entertainment, they solve nothing. Maybe the willows do get a little taller since the moose and elk are kaput, but as time goes on and hunter license money dries up because there is nothing left to hunt, who is going to step up to the plate to try to provide money for habitat etc? Not enviro non profits, they file lawsuits to take what little money is left and will probably demand that elk & moose be reintroduced so the wolves can eat & increase.

Dan Johnson,

You have made false accusations.

the real mike.

More falsehoods.

Sawtooth rider is a right wing anti-wolf nutjob? NO! Don't tell me that; I can't take it! NO, say it isn't so! I've always so looked forward to his deep probing intellect and witty banter. Right wing? Anti-wolf? Nutjob? I'd have never guessed any of it. From his comments, he's always seemed like just a normal one-eyed, gap-toothed, redneck, illiterate, cracker trash pedophile.
---------------------------------------------------------

I've read many of Farbers rants and he attacks the right just as feverishly as the left, he has stated many time he does not believe in the false left right paradigm hoax being used to subvert the freedoms of the United States.

"Civilization can only revive when there shall come into being in a number of individuals a new tone of mind, independent of the prevalent one among the crowds, and in opposition to it - a tone of mind which will gradually win influence over the collective one, and in the end determine its character. Only an ethical movement can rescue us from barbarism, and the ethical comes into existence only in individuals."
Albert Schweitzer


"Knowledge makes a man unfit to be a slave." - Frederick Douglass

Since when does truth fear investigation ? If Priest Maughan and company are providing truth, then why the censure via over moderation ? Why the selfish tactics of allowing a public servant to reply at the blog, yet most of us are not allowed the opportunity to question him, (Gamblin) even though we also pay this mans salary, we also have charged this man with the care taking of our wild life. This Censuring attitude of Priest Maughan and company, including being supported by Western Watersheds Project proves they are hiding from the truth, not attempting to reveal truth. As well the continued idiocy (Mike-Jon-Rupers) which is allowed to display itself at that site is rather telling..


The wolves never lie, their actions speak volumes.. To bad some humans infatuated with the wolves could not be more like the wolves..

I'm a plumber’s helper that lives in the Sun Valley area, originally from the Lowman area and a regular contributer to intellectually astute outlets such as “wolfcrossing.org”

I also have this information myself in my Master wolf file Ive been building. Not only that the Largest Elk herd of the North West from the Selway is GONE guys. 26,000 elk in 1996 and four head have been seen at the Winter Ranges along the Clear Water In Idaho. As well the Middle Fork of the Boise River used to have 10,000+ elk Wintering along this River from Atlanta to Lucky Peak, Ive driven this road three times this Winter and I have glassed 160 head. The South Fork of the Boise River should have 8,000 head along that drainage and Ive seen 57 elk in there. The Payette River between Grandjean and Lowman Idaho where I grew up and still spend time at should have 4500 head of elk in those wintering spots, I located 54 cows, no bulls, no calves. I found 300 elk in the King Hill Area South of Bennett Mountain, there should be 5000 head there.

My apologies, I got caught up in the absurdity of the moment.

This is what they are supposed to do. I mean do you have any idea about reality? They are only doing wrong in your eyes because all you care about is hunting an elk.


WRONG!
I care about hunting, yes, I also care about my childrens rights to hunt, I care about livestock, pets, deer, all wildlife.
I do not want to exterminate all wolves.
I want Reasonable wolf numbers, not excessive numbers.
Remember, they were reintroduced,by humans, into an area where there were none, then they killed off far to much of their prey base, we introduced them, when they start wiping out other species, and killing livestock, we need to control them
Hunters, trappers, ranchers, and private landowners do have a say in wolf management whether you like it or not.
The money raised from sales of wolf tags do help other wildlife.
Hunters, trappers, and fishermen have done far more for conservation than the majority of people who belong to groups like defenders of wildlife.
Remember, if it wasn't for Teddy Roosevelt, there wouldn't even be a Yellowstone National park for the wolves to have been released in in the first place.

By Greg Farber, 7-15-10

"I'm a plumber’s helper that lives in the Sun Valley area"

Since you actually live around here (MT, WY, ID), and know what you are talking about from firsthand experience, you will be called a right wing nut job, etc, etc, etc.

Some of the discussions from earlier this year are no longer up on this site, but like me, you will be called names and told you are a lazy hunter who only cares about getting an elk.

Just giving you a heads up what to expect soon.

By eddie, 7-13-10

What about issuing BOW-only permits ,no electronic calling devices.This would provide a REAL HUNT for REAL HUNTERS and a sporting chance for the wolves.

Fine with me, I dont use electronic calls anyhow. A bow gets the job done just as a rifle does, not all that much more difficult of a hunt.
The wolves don't give the elk and deer they kill for sport much of a chance do they? Or when they rip a calf out of a cow elk, kill cow and calf, then leave the carcasses to rot.

"seemed like just a normal one-eyed, gap-toothed, redneck, illiterate, cracker trash pedophile."

If that is normal to you, you must also be describing yourself.

"It is unAmerican to force other folks to pay the cost of your entertainment, and wolves are entertainment, they solve nothing. Maybe the willows do get a little taller since the moose and elk are kaput, but as time goes on and hunter license money dries up because there is nothing left to hunt, who is going to step up to the plate to try to provide money for habitat etc? Not enviro non profits, they file lawsuits to take what little money is left and will probably demand that elk & moose be reintroduced so the wolves can eat & increase."

Must be their plan, sue to reintroduce moose, elk and deer for the wolves to eat, after they kill all the available prey.

Mountain Hunter,

That's not Farber posting those comments. I should know I am he. Typical childishness by others who cannot stand on their beliefs and win and honest open debate. I was a plumbing apprentice over twenty years ago, I am now a retired plumbing and radiant-snow melt heating contractor.

Obviously sharing the ongoing changes occurring in the Sawtooth Zone, the lower Frank Church, and the Boise River Zone are pissing off some persons since the truth coming out does not support their false beliefs.

I have linked to several of my own blogs under this handle, It amuses that some simpleton thinks they are exposing me.

High JEFF E... Still playing your games I see..

" you will be called a right wing nut job, etc, etc, etc. "

I know, it is just another form of censure, to belittle, name call, denigrate, marginalize, in attempts to discredit, or even intimidate. Trivial pursuits. De-humanize others raised differently than themselves..

Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc. etc. did it to.. If this goes beyond fair and open debate it is easier to have us killed and tossed into a hole.

mountain hunter, you have no idea what you are talking about.

President Ulysses S. Grant established Yellowstone National Park, not Teddy. Please, know what the hell you are talking about.

The only targeted, hunted, animal I have read about that went extinct was the passenger pigeon, and that was market hunting, not sporting hunts. The same was almost true for bison, elk, big horn sheep, and pronghorn. There were some isolated species on islands that succumbed to the neat for seafarer's food, and many more that were made extinct by the introduction of the house cat, the wharf rat, domestic pigs, and dogs onto those small island environments. Building cities, complete with homes and streets and all sorts of transportation and other buildings, seems to consume vast areas of habitat each year. I have to assume many animals and plants have lot their habitat to asphalt and concrete, domestic pets, and fouled runoff. And from some of those environs we get the litigants who are out to save the rest of the world, now that they have their piece of heaven on earth. Easy to essay about wolves from the police protected, fire protected, law and order protected, safety of your own domicile. The Russian peasants said that they didn't hate the wolf, but only that the wolf killed their plough horse. The wolf killed their means to survival, to plant and grow food, to sustain themselves. And that is probably at the heart of most of the arguments to control and limit wolf numbers. The wolf is not hated for being a wolf. The wolf needs limits because the wolf will not share, and how could we expect him to? After all, he didn't get to go to kindergarten, and we all learned to share in kindergarten, did we not? The wolf wants it all. It is in his nature. And it is in man's nature to limit the numbers of critters that don't share. Rats, crows, starlings, and even wolves. It is in our nature. It is who we are. Wolf control is part of the social contract. Sort of like dog control in Baghdad now that there are far fewer corpses for them to consume.

The Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission was meeting today to discuss upcoming budget issues. They currently get 7% of their budget from the State General Fund. The rest is all pay to play income, and the directed money from the Feds, for Pittman Robertson, and Breaux Wallop taxation of guns and ammo, and fishing gear. Some of the Fed money you only get in matching funds. Assuming Oregon is representative of most Western states, all this animal welfare, habitat, species protection, is coming from people buying licenses to catch and/or kill fish and game. The lamprey tax. The tick tax. Like that? Tick tax? Bloodsuckers drain the sportsman to protect their special interests but don't pay. The tweetie birds, snakes, and all the non-game protection are paid for by the sporting types, and the wistful observers get a free ride. We really do need a Federal tax on outdoor gear to then distribute to states. pro rata, for all the non-fishing or hunting aspects of wildlife protection and management. If you want someone to protect the wolf, and you are not bellied up to the table paying for it, you should consider self gratification which is an activity in which you can participate for free. Sportsmen and sportswomen are not some Al Gore masseuse to the entitled. They are essentially getting hosed by the freeloaders from the wistful observer set.

I am not in favor of more taxes, but in this case, I am tired of paying the freight for full wally retirements and health care for employees, and I am tired of their being able to cross dress with the NGOs that govern their work at the Federal level. That they are taking money from paying hunters and fishers and spending it on critters that are not hunted or fished, is basically stealing. At least with a tax on REI sales, all the fancy precious metals climbing gear, hiking and camping gear, the chemist based clothing, the NASA inspired ability to venture forth in comfort and style, the high dollar optics and cameras, this spending to give the wolf faeries something to anthropomorphize with and to, would be better funded, and more money could go to the management of charismatic animals that are fished and hunted, as the participants have every reason to expect it to be spent on those animals and their management. All the voles, meadow mice, kit foxes, willow warblers, and LBF's would have much better support for their needs and protections. Let the folks who do the suing either support a tax like that, or at the least, be quoted, and castigated, for not supporting such a national tax. At least we would know where they stood when it comes to paying their tab, bar bill, whatever you could call it.

I cringe when I read the comments of the blustering "Sawtooth Rider". One incurious and ignorant of the biological proof on record of balance and benefits of predator vs prey. He serves his own selfish wants and arrogant cowboy window dressing. And most of all I cringe with his made up his moniker including name: Sawtooth. This a beloved area of ours when we moved to Sawtooth country in 1952 and in 1970 went to Washington DC to defend the Sawtooth wilderness, when Frank Church gave up his property on Salmon above Sunbeam so as not to have controversial interest in efforts to preserve the SNRA and the primitive area along with the White Clouds, Boulders, and Pioneers. I suppose Farber is one of those "lazy" ones who packed horses from Grandjean through Baron Lakes and over the Baron ridge and into the Sawtooth Wilderness. This area is tragically degraded, once beautiful clearings filled with wildflowers are trampled by horse picket lines. Yeah you really appreciate wilderness and wildlife.

Greg,
wasn't me. have not been here for a long time. You still posting the same drivel as always I see.

....I have known for some time that you use sawtooth rider however. came across it in the Mt. Express several months ago and it was glaringly apparent. Nobody does stupid as well as you.

Sunny,
You might want to check that Sawtooth Wilderness Boundary it starts a tad closer to Grandjean, one mile or less rather than as you say here, "Grandjean through Baron Lakes and over the Baron ridge and into the Sawtooth Wilderness ". In order to use the trail you have described one would have been in the Sawtooth Wilderness not approaching the Sawtooth Wilderness. As to my using the route, with back pack and not since the 1980s due to that specific section of the wilderness including Sawtooth lake becoming the granola muncher camera yuppie toilet paper trail..

And how many times does this theory need to be rewritten so us dumb shits can decide to swallow it down jest like you did.. " biological proof on record of balance and benefits of predator vs prey."

I was actually content with the proven track record of eight decades of balance and benefits of predator vs prey under proper management, as well I admired the wolves in the area you claim I decimated in the 1970s-80s-90s which were eventually decimated by the new theory of " biological proof on record of balance and benefits of predator vs prey " when FWS decided to play god, steal funds, and rush the natural process of wolves returning..

JEFF E,

Nice to see you step out from behind you're Idols censured blog site, and pharma dope user for depression Priest Maughan and throw out some more of your courageous name calling, labeling, etc. etc. bs.. I am aware that critical thought is beyond idiots such as yourself. We'll see how you think a couple more years from now, Just try and lay the blame where it belongs for a change Jeffy. Now run along sissy boy and play with your sniper rifle and radar gun.

Bearbait,

That be great stuff, the truth, how horrifying..ha ha

I completely understand that there are people who fail to understand the meaning of men who are capable of the process known as being a sentient sovereign individual capable of critical thinking along with understanding the collectivist propaganda we struggle against, not because we believe you people who are caught in that mind frame do not have the right to dwell in that hell, you do, quite simply you do not have the right to force me to dwell there with you. Now I hope you live long and prosper, God willing you will wake up some day while you attempt to share your prosperity with those of us who are refusing to accept those gifts you offer us..

As to the education of people like the " real mike " and " Dan Johnson " and " JILL E " I find it very strange that you so vehemently attack the " right " part of the democratic party while defending the left part of the same party, is this not a democracy within a sleeping Republic gentlemen ? You both certainly do not behave as democratic persons what with you're continuous slighting of others of your country who also are democrats, of course excluding persons of a Constitutional background such as myself, why would I want to claim to be a democrat or support a democracy which our founders of our Constitution were so strongly opposed to, in fact the Constitution does not call this nation a Democracy now does it. Unfortunately the problem with democracy is that most people, the majority of those constituents consumed with the democratic philosophy are not that smart. Perhaps that is why you three resorted to your libelous and slanderous attack of my character..

I am a firm believer that the democratic party, the more extreme of course being the left, is just like the mule, that symbol of their party, without pride, of dubious ancestry, and without hope of procreation, are now bent on suicide, intellectual suicide and actual physical suicide, unless of course they remove their heads from their backsides, and back off.. Of course they never will, enjoy the ride to the ground gents.

Greg Farber

You can't teach me anything about the Sawtooth Wilderness boundaries. We drew them. We had plans for real preservation of that area. The old black and white photos of what Red Fish Lake was are reminiscent of what it could have been. Red Fish Lake was almost what one could call a wilderness experience for those who couldn't hike to a true alpine lake. Now it is a carnival. Guess you didn't get the meaning of the sentence but that is understandable when all you are looking for is something to pick apart along with inserting your demeaning references.

Sunny,
You must mean the way you picked me apart with your insulting assumptions of my careless wilderness adventures and my down right low life character wandering about laying waste to those beautiful and pristine haunts we all adore according to your very biased and inaccurate assumptions spewed forth from most of that paragraph. I caught your meaning well.. __l__

Greg,
Sorry but your own rhetoric defines how you are seen by others. So I don't mean to insult you but I'm just responding to your blog. So it may be just an exercise in voicing your opinions of those you think of as elitist and highfaluting snobs, rich and undeserving to trek in back country terrain. It may be satisfying and fun to vent your distrust and scorn on those interlopers. But you may make your point better by just toning it down a little. Sometimes less is more. Anyway along those lines there are some I resent because I doubt they really appreciate or respect the privilege of being able to find themselves in such glorious wilderness.

Sunny,

I know, I've seen the type, I watched a non resident hunter tossing his sugar water can and candy bar wrapper into the brush top of Zumwalt Mountain one day, I'll not say what happened next because you'll further me into the barbarian category. If it be any consolation for you, I have picked up and cleaned up my fair share of the trash out yonder in my travels, it angers me to have to pick up after others but we do it anyhow. Just pull off onto one of the many turnouts along highway 21- Canyon Creek, and walk down off the embankment, take a huge garbage bag with you. ( I know you Know). I've filled up my truck many times. Now just relax, I'm the quiet dude you never met. BUT if you have read the debates over the Bill of Rights which lasted from 1787-1792, you would realize I am just a tame and cuddly homely hombre compared to those feisty fellers fending off those who only wanted freedoms for the few and not the many. Freedom of conscience and expression can be a very trying thing for all of us to tolerate, it's just the way it is. These electronic pages de-humanize us all.. Think about that. Unfortunately many of the out of the box political things I say can be proven with little difficulty, it just takes a little effort. I don not appreciate it either but once again, that's just how it is. We need to get back to thinking instead of just blinking.

Greg,
A handshake, if I may, and cheers. We will just keep on keeping on.
The most effective conservation is looking at our own backyard (Sawtooths,etc.) and starting there doing what is right for that environment. We are so lucky to have what we have, looking at blue sky, rushing clean water.... I can't look into a sparkling clean mountain pool, watch the outlet and not feel the magic of H2O. It may be by choice that we live where we do but we are very lucky too.

Bahahahahahah @ Sawtooth Rider Baahhahahahahha!

LMAO at your comments about hunters living in the saddle for six weeks. I probally cover more ground and live in the dirt for six weeks in the fall than you in your posturing saddle.

I know who you are the community of stanely does your the nutter who chases around wolves when you observe them chasing elk.

The fact that your soooo anti-wolf and make up all this BS about the lower frank church prooves your just an out of touch absolute nutball. you may not be left or right but either way your NUTS!

You and bearbait can smooze over a dead wolf, it's probally your fanatsy.

You anti-wolf nutters are absolutley pathetic ,fear and propoganda filled Morons.

Wolves are needed on the landscape period.

you wanna hunt em ok, but they're needs to be decent breeding populations.

Oh the Nutjobs of Idaho when will you learn.

Greg 01/23/09 - 06:41Wolves eliminate deer/elk/antelope/other real native wolves which Idaho had prior to the Canadian wolf being introduced/wolves dig up hybernating bears and kill em/wolves dig up foxes and kill em/ wolves kill cougers when they can catch them/wolves kill wild turkeys/wolves kill coyotes, it is a territorial thing, the fact that wolves kill and exist is not the problem, the problem is idaho has to many wolves. The state admits to 824 wolves and 88 breeding pairs, the original promise and agreement was 300 wolves and 30 breeding pairs..Wolves are wiping out Idaho's elk, fish and game is starting to admit this fact slowly..they are in the process of asking FWS for permission to kill wolves due to wolves decimation of Idaho's big game herds. Idaho's largest herd from the Lolo zone is at 75% regrowth, that is 10% below normal which is 85%..it is called herd collapse. City people see 100 elk in Elk Horn, which is a winter range filled with trophy homes, and they think "Oh the elk are ok" and they see twenty elk by Stanely and say the same thing..BULL, other people deny the facts just to be arrogant and mean...wolves are wiping out Idaho's elk and deer."


Sound familiar Greg?

fact is you foicused on one of the only areas in Idaho (the Lolo zone) that experienced a sharp decline in Elk due to wolves. Every other area in the state has either remained styable ior INCREASED it'sd elk populations.

Talk about ignoring facts and only seeing what you want to.

yopur a hypocritical fear and propagnda filled nutter who thinks he's rational.

Just get back on your stock and continue to ride in the overcrowded sawtooths and claim you know about the lower frank church's wolves.

LMAO @ you sawtooth rider....you really need to get a life and let the wolves be son.

All your gonna say isd "there's TOO MANY WOLVES"

There's too many Greg farbers that's the problem in Idaho.

Why don't you insist on the removal of the lower snake river dams for all the salmon if you really care about wildlife. you won't though you'll continue to pout and cry about wolves and claim there a threat to all wildlife and claim your a saviro becuase your a hunter but in reality you have'nt done jack.

Your obcessed with wolves like todd...get alife you nutters.

By Sawtooth Rider, 7-14-10

"Yep, I betcha that wolf was really stressed out having that cable around it's waste, probably not as stressed out as a pregnant cow elk down on the ground with her guts ripped out her belly and her calf ripped out of her while she bled out and struggled for five to fifteen minutes of she were lucky, I've witnessed mangled elk cows and calves last 24 hours in that predicament before dying.. Poor wolves."


you post crap like this and then claim your a middle ground intellectual wildlife and wilderness advocate. Seriuosly sawtooth rider why don't you get those lower dams removed for all the salmon to return to the headwaters country where you live. You won't you'll obcess about TOO MANY WOLVES! and won;t do a damn thing for real wildlife issues. how about you protest the trapping of wolverines or the baiting of bears in spring and fall in Idaho but you won't you'll just babble on about too many wolves and how people are blinded by prop.

BTW Mtn. Hunter you a right wing nutter becuase that's reality not because you live and hunt in WY ID or MT. There are plenty of people in those states who are not right wing nutter but your not one of em.

and this old Baerh will lumber back into the wilds, say what you will after his tracks have hardened in the mud. It does'nt matter to this old Baerh.

There are enough wolves in Idaho that they are having to look for a place to shit in Oregon. We didn't mind it when the wolves drove the moose across the Snake. We never had moose. Now we have about 100 and they live here, breed here. Right in the middle of where the transient Idaho wolves have now moved to. My guess is that we will lose a lot of elk, and all those moose, in the next few years.

The wolf faeries have their sights set on the Research Natural Area around Mt. St. Helens, which if just north of Portland in WA state. The elk there can't be hunted due to the post volcanic eruption and do nothing management on the USFS land. The PIss Fir Willys don't have enough money to keep up the visitors centers for the volcano. Now someone wants them to import some wolves to deal with a population of elk that has grown larger than the habitat that supports them. The only question a thinking person would have is what do you do with the wolves after they have consumed the elk with no historical exposure to wolves, the consumption of such elk the wolves will do in short order. Who feeds them then? The deer to the west of the Rockies have a hair loss disease brought here from Europe and imported European deer. They are far, far below their former numbers. The elk are in many scattered small bands, and hard pressed right now to sustain themselves against predation by cougars and bear, species that Oregon is a national leader in terms of numbers in the state, and animals per square mile. Our cougars now live in suburbia due to all the better habitat taken by others of their species.

Bears are not winter predators. Bears kick the crap out of calves and fawns for a month in spring, and get more than half the annual offspring of deer and elk. Cougars are getting their share all year long. Add wolves, and game is gone in terms of having hunting and a surplus to harvest by man. You know, man, the predator that is ruled by law and regulations, with punishment for transgressions.

I don't really give a damn anymore about hunting or fishing, because there are too many people, and too little game. And don't give me the habitat argument, because habitat that once served lots of game, plus public land grazing of both sheep and cattle along with a modicum of feral horses, and the sheep are gone, the horses many, and cows under legal attack by urban swells daily and the game is not there anymore. The issue is that selling permits to kill game is the foundation of wolf protection, tweety bird husbandry, all the ESA work, and if biologists have any time, even game animals, birds and fish. I no longer buy a license due to the fact I get one for free for having lived here way too long and being way too old. I get a break on an elk tag. The other tags I have to buy like everyone else, and participate in the draws. But I don't participate because they charge you to apply, and then for the tag if successful. I am not going to pay another dime to support non game wildlife. The wolf faeries, the bird geeks, the habitat protectors, the free lunch crowd cannot find it to appropriate money from the general fund for wildlife management, and that is from a state with liberal Democrat governors for 25 years, and the legislature in their control. They are cheap. Less than 7% of the money for Fish and Wildlife comes NOT from licenses and tags, and the distribution of Federal excise taxes on hunting stuff and excise taxes on fishing stuff. So when the hikers pay an excise tax on sleeping bags, rare earth climbing gear, optics, high tech clothing made using fossil resources and lots of energy, the imported boots and other clothing, bicycles, safety helmets, the whole ball of wax, there might be adequate money for care and concern for wolves, the wolf faery crew having at last contributed to the care of their particular charismatic wildlife. The Free Ride needs to end. We need a horse tax. An annual tax on owning a horse, mule or llama. They use way too much food and energy, and land that would better be used to feed the poor deserved free meals. It is time for the left to be what they want others to be and that is giving. Not to the NGOs using tax forgiven money. Not the mandatory distribution of trust money each year. I mean by having been taxed on their recreation and recreation equipment to "save" the great out of doors. Quit castigating the hunters and fishermen who pay for most of conservation, and expand the role of the taxed participants in resource use. A camera tax. A tax on GPS and other high tech "wilderness" equipment.

And then you can put wolves anywhere you deem them to be. On your dime.

Oregon formed its first government when it was not exactly even US territory. Some trappers and their Indian wives, plus some recently arrived plough boys and livestock raisers, met on Feb 2, 1843 to form a rudimentary government to tax themselves in order to hire a hunter to kill wolves, lions, and bears that were taking a terrible toll on their livestock. The Wolf Meetings. So the very first act of self governance was to establish a tax to pay for a hunter to kill wolves. My, how far we have come. I would advise the wolf faeries to form a committee to petition the legislature to tax them on their pursuit of being the world wildlife conscience, and use their money and treasure to "save" the wolves. Or feed the wolves. Because the people who have critters that wolves seem to find edible will be killing the trespassing wolves like they have done for millennia. It is who were are, and who the wolves are. Our interspecies conflict has been ongoing for centuries. Even the predominant religions are based somewhat on man's dominion over animals. These arguments are not new and specific to latter day wolves.

The old Russina proverb says something along the line of "I don't hate the wolf. I hate that he kills my plough horse." Which translates to the s.o.b. took my means to feed my family and to be able to survive the next winter, not starve. All wolves are fine except for the one who takes my livelihood. And they will if allowed. Just a part of the ongoing conflict for a few thousand years. And it is not about who is decent and who is not. It is about who has something to lose, and about those who do lose something that is center to their survival. The State vs. The Individual..We elected an Administration and Congress that is about the State and not the Individual. We get what we elected. The collective support is for the wolf. Individuals will get hurt by that decision. We will hear from them, and some will act to preserve themselves. What will distinguish us and our government, is how much compassion we will have for the people, the persons, hurt by urban protected wolves.

So the USFS reporting on a Mexican illegal alien caught tending an illegal marijuana grow in the Shasta-Trinity NF, called the individual a "displaced foreign traveler from Michoacan, Mx." A rancher run out by wolves will be "a displaced domestic herdsman from ScabRock, New West." But only after he has been demeaned by wolf faerie writers, and called all sorts of foul and vile names. We have to have all the invective and personal insults because that is how you win arguments in these United States today. At least the gang bangers are honest enough about their differences to shoot each other. Or is it they never learned how to debate? Or read and write? Displaced homie travelers that they are. Or is it they are "confused defenders of their homeland?"

Baehr, protesting does nothing for wildlife, it only makes environmental groupds rich. In fact all of the lawsuits filed drain money from the agencies that manage wildlife into enviro pockets. Ranchers and sportsmen have poured millions into wildlife preservation. Enviros lawsuits are takeing that money away from wildlife and lining their own pockets.
It simply isn't possible to have a wildlife population made up of just predators.

canis lupus

The National Park Service (NPS) is the U.S. federal agency that manages all national parks, many national monuments, and other conservation and historical properties with various title designations.[1] It was created on August 25, 1916, by Congress through the National Park Service Organic Act.[2]

Yeah, I was wrong on that one, but so are you. It is not the point anyhow, point is that hunters have done a lot for wildlife conservation.

I know all the trash I pick up every trip I make is not all from hunters,people leave water bottles, pepsi cans, beer cans, candy bar wrappers, power bar wrappers,ramen noodle packages,plastic bags, foil, food cans. It is disgusting, none of this was happening when I was a kid, It mainly started in the early 90's.

Wolves need to be managed, they are not an endangered species.

Todd-

I don't think you understand my def. of protesting. It entails writing letters, spreading word of mouth and perhaps making signs. no where did I mention lawsuits or env. groups which you obviuosly have utter contempt for.

Wolves are hunted, they needed a reintorduction or they would've gone extinct in Idaho period.

The wolves came back on their own into MT and are completely NATIVE. The Idaho wolves are not the invasive, beheamouth monsters that sites like lobowatch portray them as.

The wolf hysteria amongst right wing hunters is obcession bordering on insanity. They are not killing all the elk or wother wildife, they ARE currently managed so please just stop with the absurd claims that they will kill all the wildlife and then focus on people.