Reflections on Wilderness and Mountain Biking
By George Wuerthner, 12-09-10
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| Mountain bikers ride a trail in Montana. | |
I’ve had debates with mountain bike supporters over the question of whether bikes and, by extension, other wheeled vehicles, should be permitted in designated wilderness. The mountain bike crowd feels their activity should be allowed in wilderness areas.
Many mountain bikers oppose any wilderness that does not permit biking and/or at least if wilderness designation closes a trail that mountain bikers have come to use. Since by definition of the Wilderness Act, mechanical access is prohibited, any lands designated under the 1964 Wilderness Act is automatically off limits to mountain biking. I ride a mountain bike on trails. It’s great exercise. I like the challenge. But I oppose mountain bikes in any designated wilderness and/or areas under proposal for wilderness.
Many mountain bikers react to the exclusion of mechanical transport, including mountain bikes, in wilderness with indignation. Wilderness designation does not exclude them from wilderness. They, and all people are welcome in wilderness. What is not welcome is many modern forms of transportation. One is not being denied access to wilderness by a ban on wheeled access any more than someone who like to ride on dirt bikes are being denied access because dirt bikes are also banned.
Mountain bikers can walk which is the most equitable and democratic form of access. Walking requires little more than a pair of sneakers. In a sense, the ban on wheeled access equalizes access for everyone. All people are welcome in wilderness, just not their bikes—and that is how it should remain.
Such exclusions are no different than the ban on smoking implemented across the country. One can’t smoke in public libraries, on planes, in many restaurants, public schools, and so forth. People who smoke are permitted to enter these public places; they just can’t smoke their cigarettes in such places.
Unfortunately some mountain bikers react to this ban on mountain biking by opposing wilderness designation if it curtails present or perceived future mountain bike use. If they can’t access it on a bike, than they are not going to support wilderness designation. In some ways this shows better than I could explain why mountain bikers as a group (and there are exceptions) are not wildlands advocates. They are recreation advocates—and a very specific recreation advocates—wheeled access.
There is nothing wrong with being an advocate for a sport you’re passionate about. But just because you’re an advocate doesn’t mean that your particular activity is appropriate in all locations, including in all public holdings.
I know many passionate hunters. But hunting, with just a few exceptions, is not permitted in national parks. Yet many of the avid hunters I know still support national park designation even though they cannot enjoy hunting in those places. They appreciate that national parks preserve many public values, including protection of watersheds, wildlife habitat, and scenery.
Yet the distinct feeling I get from mountain bikers –at least the mountain bikers who I hear from—tend to put mountain biking first. They cannot accept that there are public lands where wheeled access is restricted.
There is an unfortunate context to this issue. Many trails were “captured” by mountain bikers without any formal discussion or public review. Basically mountain bikers just started riding those trails and over time established a use as other thrillcraft (ORVs) did. There were no public reviews as to whether that use was appropriate. There was no environmental review. Now mountain bikers feel they are “losing” access that was never formally granted.
As mountain bikes have improved, more and more trails can be ridden. Places that twenty years ago would never have been traveled by a bike are now regularly traversed. Just as with other thrillcraft, mechanical and design improvements have allowed mountain bikers to access more and more remote country. And I have no reason to believe that this trend will not continue.
The Wilderness Act explicitly excludes “mechanical transport”. That is why not only mountain bikes, but other recreational pursuits like para-gliding, snow sailing, and so forth are also excluded from designated wilderness.
Though mountain bikes may be the machine of today, who knows what kinds of new wheeled vehicle will gain popularity in the future? I can envision muscle-powered four wheelers, backcountry skate boards, and what have you. Human ingenuity is endless and new technologies and materials may make it possible for many new kinds of wheeled machines to be invented. If mountain bikes are permitted in wilderness, then how can other muscle-powered wheeled vehicles be denied access?
That is why wilderness designation is so important. Wilderness designation is an act of humility. With the designation of wilderness, we as a society are saying this is a place that is different. It is not like all other public lands. It is a place where we don’t do the same things we might find acceptable elsewhere.
We are implicitly saying that wilderness is a place set apart. To the degree that we have any kind of sacred ground in America, wilderness and national parks and other special land designations represent “hallowed ground.” While certain types of recreation have always been practiced in wilderness including things like hiking, fishing, cross country skiing and canoeing, the primary purpose of wilderness designation is not to provide recreational opportunities. If that were the case, there would be no reason to designate a wilderness.
One can hike, canoe, and so forth outside of a wilderness and for that matter one can mountain bike outside of wilderness too. And we have many, many more acres of public lands that lie outside of wilderness and/or any potential wilderness where mountain biking as well as many other recreational pursuits are acceptable.
Organizations that are wilderness supporters do not make recreation the main goal of wilderness designation. It is the Wilderness Society for instance, not the Backpacking Society. And that’s one of the differences between organizations like the International Mountain Biking Association (IMBA) and wildlands supporters. IMBA exists to expand trails and trail use by mountain bikers—which in itself is a fine goal in appropriate locations—but it is not about wildlands preservation.
Many mountain bikers (see my recent post on Omnibus Wilderness for a taste of these comments) http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/ominbus_wilderness_bill_likely/C564/L564/ seem to think that the only reason wilderness advocates objections to mountain biking in wilderness is because we want to selfishly have all the trails to ourselves. I suppose since the only rationale that mountain bikers see for being involved in public lands issues is to expand places where they can ride their bikes, they can’t imagine that anyone would just be supporting wilderness for its own sake. But that is exactly why many of us support wilderness designation.
Though I have hiked, skied, canoed, and otherwise traveled in many wilderness areas and proposed wildernesses, whether I can do any of these things in any wilderness is not the reason I am a staunch wildlands supporter. Indeed, I will never visit; much less fully explore most of the areas that I support for wilderness designation.
Rather I support wilderness for a host of reasons other than recreation and/or their economic value. I can cite the way wildlands provide us a base line for how natural systems work, and as a home to many species that cannot thrive in the mangled landscapes we called “managed” lands. And of course, wilderness preservation also protects other things that benefit all of us like fountainheads for clean water, soil protection and so forth.
But the real reason many strong wilderness advocates support wilderness is because we believe that some lands should be self-willed and to the degree possible in an age of global warming—lands that are beyond human manipulation. We feel there should be places where humans accept limits on what we do and where we do it.
This is an old human tradition. All cultures have traditions that attempt to promote the best attributes of human nature. And all cultures recognize that there are some activities that you are not appropriate everywhere.
Wilderness designation automatically says this is a place we don’t do all the things we might do elsewhere. We are not going to log the forest. We are not going to mine the land. We are not going to drill for oil. We are, in other words, going to treat these lands as something special. And one of the things we have decided not to permit in a wilderness is wheeled access—whether muscle powered or not.
I suspect this may be hard for some mountain bikers to understand. But another way to think about it is to imagine a place like the Arlington National Cemetery. I imagine one could have a fun time riding among the ground stones, maybe jumping some of the tombs and creating a nice trail through the cemetery. All but the most crass mountain biker would understand why someone would be outraged if a group of mountain bikers insisted on creating a trail through the cemetery. It is hallowed ground.
For many of us who are advocates of wildlands preservation, wild places are already so scarce that we believe any remaining lands should be set aside as special places. And these grounds are steadily shrinking under the onslaught of industrial society. To permit even one more intrusion by mechanical advantaged machines, even muscle-powered ones, is a step towards degrading many of the special qualities of wildlands.
Though I am sure there are mountain bikers who love natural areas and appreciate wild places, the main reason people mountain bike is not to show reverence for a place. And I am not speaking of religion necessarily here, but respect. Careening down a trail at high speeds does little for reverences. Though not all people who visit a wilderness necessarily think of them as sacred places, the very quality of going slowly at least encourages thoughtful appreciation.
I suspect some mountain bikers would respond by saying how is their activity any different than a white water kayaker running a rapids and/or a backcountry skier swooping down a mountain slope. Is someone focused on the next Class Four drop really thinking about reverence or just thinking about survival?
However, one of the explicit rationales behind the Wilderness Act is to preserve “heritage values”. Heritage values including things like our heritage of unmanaged landscapes, scenic values, clean water, and so forth. But it also applies to how one approaches wilderness. Human travel in these places is based on the kinds of traditional access that has been used for centuries whether it be hiking skiing, canoeing or on horseback. In many cases, these modes of travel have been the dominate way of transport for humans for thousands of years. These are in a sense an authentic part of the experience that wilderness designation preserves. Bikes were not part of the traditional heritage of wilderness.
Many mountain bikers are quick to say that horse travel (which is permitted in designated wilderness) does more damage to trails and even the experience of other visitors than mountain bikes. And in one sense they are correct. But I do not think this justifies promoting another activity that potentially degrades wildlands.
Mechanical advantages such as mountain bikes shrinks wilderness. The main objective of most mountain bikers is the challenge of the trail, not the experience of a sacred ground or communion with nature.
Again I suspect mountain bikers would respond that the average backpacker, wilderness fisherman, or backcountry skier is not seeking sacred ground either. And in that regard they may be correct, but some activities are more conducive to reflective moments than others. And one of the implicit goals of wilderness designation is the promotion of reflection about the human relationship to nature.
I would encourage mountain bikers who want to help protect public lands from industrialization—a worthy challenge—to begin land protection campaigns to set aside lands that are not part of any wilderness proposal and/or large block of roadless terrain. The majority of public lands fit these basic criteria. There are far more acres of public land that will never be considered as potential additions to the National Wilderness System than there are lands that could be designated.
The opportunities for this kind of distinctive conservation effort would be welcomed by most wilderness advocates. There are certainly many lands that could be designated as conservation unit—open to mountain biking. For instance, in Montana the Bangtail Hills between Livingston and Bozeman are suitable for mountain biking as well as other non-motorized users but is not now in any wilderness proposal. Yet the Bangtail Hills have conservation value as a linkage and biological corridor between several other proposed wilderness and some kind of protective status would aid overall conservation goals. If mountain bikers were to focus their efforts on such areas, they could avoid this unnecessary conflict with wilderness advocates, garner more public lands that are open to mountain biking and at the same time help the bigger goal of long term conservation efforts.
Wilderness is not an outdoor gymnasium. We should not reduce its value by allowing more and more activities that compromises any values in wilderness. Wildlands are under assault everywhere. We don’t need to add to that assault by allowing mountain bikes to contribute to that decline.
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Comments
If the New West would like to learn the facts about mountain biking and the work mountain bikers do to maintain many multi-use trail systems feel free to contact me.
Gene thinks HIS wheels are better than MY wheels. And George thinks HIS feet are superior to Genes wheels and my wheels.
For instance, who pioneered the Moab experience? Miner motorheads. And when, one spring, the Crested Butte guys "discovered" that bomber bikes could do stuff....
MTBers, you need to understand that part of the point of wilderness and part of the motivation to have it designated is an unwillingness to share, or have any intrusion into the primitive illusion. All the yap about pristine ecosystems is simply deflectionist mumbo jumbo to cover up the desire to have something all to oneself.
I would love to do a psychological study of wilderness advocates, or even some of you "correct" MTB people, to find out if the social skills portions of your kindergarten report cards noted how well you played with others or if you shared the common pool of classroom toys.
Some of us learn to share, but some sure don't.
The fact is, MTBers need to look to other users in mutual support rather than try to cut deals in which everyone loses -- except the anointed, of course.
It's even worse where I live. I don't live near wilderness. But I enjoy riding through the local city-owned golf course by my house. But the city is thinking of prohibiting bike riding in the park. These selfish people think I shouldn't ride my bike there, as if they have a soul right to the golf course--it's public property. My bike does less damage than those little carts the golfer ride around in. I have paid taxes too.
I know it was posted in the article but here's a link to another article/thread with more info. & comments surrounding this issue.
With Tester's FJRA recently being attached to the Senate's Continuing resolution bill, is this the way we want things to continue?
Tester has eliminated the public, the forest service and anyone else who did'nt meet with him in his closed door meetings.
With bills like the FJRA and CIEDRA looming both wilderness advocates and mtn bikers are loosing out.
I don't think MTBs or anything else wheeled should be allowed in big-W wilderness areas so designated. I think it is appropriate to have wilderness areas protected as primitive. But more wilderness? No thanks.
So it is appropriate to extend the Pittman Robertson and Breaux Wallop taxes to bicycles, and not let them on Wilderness trails. It is how our government does things. Tell you one and do another. I would like to see all that specialized bicycle gear and clothing excise taxes to support open areas without bikes. That is how hunters and fishermen are treated, by the very same country, government, and citizens. Tax the crap out of bike stuff to allow them to buy a license to ride on public roads and open trails.
Fortunately the old guard lost out, much to the benefit of the colleges and even the old-guard alumni. Crusty and doddering all-male institutions became vastly more appealing and prestigious after they let women in. The value of their degrees soared. Nowadays you have to be a genius, a superb athlete, and a renowned high-school humanitarian to be accepted at the most prestigious of them.
Exclusionary wilderness, like the all-male colleges, is an increasingly creaky concept. It's not bearing up well under the strain of the many contradictions under which it operates and that it generates. Time for reform.
At the end of the day, enjoy your tax payer funded private hallowed grounds. One day or another, we will gain access to it.
De ja vu all over again… Didn’t we just watch this movie?
You sanctimoniously paint with such broad generalizations and stereotypes about what you think mountain bicyclists believe and do that you invalidate your message. Riding in Arlington National Cemetery as a (W)ilderness analogy? Please!
You continue to muddy the waters with by using (W)ilderness and (w)ilderness interchangeably. Lame.
You suggest protecting the Bangtail Divide for bicycles. Does that mean fighting to remove the existing and Travel Plan sanctioned motorized uses to prove our conservation chops to the conservation community? No thanks! Enforcement of current regulations would go a long ways to protect this heavily used area though. If the Bangtails are such an important touch stone for you, maybe you could rattle the local (W)ilderness coffers for some much needed trail maintanence funding as they are bragging about money available for front country trails as a means to conceal their bad bicycle policies and tactics elsewhere on the Gallatin National Forest.
How about the conservation community embracing bicyclists for a National Protection Area for the Lionhead area of the Henry Mountains to permanently protect a deserving landscape, an important wildlife corridor and the quiet, non-motorized trail use presently allowed? Sounds like a win/win to me.
Since you state again much of what you said in the comments of your previous post, I will restate a question from there that you sidestepped completely.
Keeping in mind that (W)ilderness is not a religion or first amendment right but a land protection tool - what are WE protecting with a Congressional (W)ilderness designation that cannot be accomplished with a well written, strongly worded, legally binding and collaboratively supported companion designation that offers the SAME protection from mining, logging, new roads, structures and expanded motorized use but still allows bicycling on SOME important TRAILS within a larger protected LANDSCAPE that could / would include new bicycle banning Wilderness acreage?? Are these not the goals of the (W)ilderness advocate? What IS the argument here? Is it the color of my skin – er – mode of quiet recreation you reject?
NEWS FLASH - Rep. Obey from Wisconsin, Chair of the Appropriations committee, blocked the Tester bill tonight.
Wilderness IDEAL meets political reality 2010. What’s it going to be – another 25-year land protection drought in Montana?
There seems to be a misunderstanding among mountain bikers. Somehow they feel like they are being excluded from wilderness. Nothing could be further from the truth. You're all welcome. It's just your bikes that are not welcome.
To suggest that this is the same exclusions of women from clubs or other discrimination demonstrates poor critical thinking skills. The ban on mountain bikes, 4wd drive pick ups, dirt bikes, ride on lawn mowers, chain saws, etc. from wilderness is similar to a ban on smoking in public libraries and/or other public areas. Anyone is free to enter a public library. No one is free to smoke there.
"For instance, in Montana the Bangtail Hills between Livingston and Bozeman are suitable for mountain biking as well as other non-motorized users but is not now in any wilderness proposal."
Have you visited the Bangtails George? Much of the area has been clear cut to death and is criss-crossed with roads. Why would it ever be considered for Wilderness designation?
Geo, As Bob Allen so well put in response to another of George's diatribes. We as Mtn Bikers have been locked out of many areas in Montana that are NOT Wilderness yet are managed as Wilderness.
Another NewWest article that is pure rubbish.
Yes I have been in the Bangtails--I have ridden my mountain bike there, hunted there, and so forth.
Yes it has some clearcuts and roads. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have conservation value, especially if no further industrial development is excluded.
However "some" clearcuts and roads is downplaying the fact that Plum Creek devastated the Bangtails before they traded it to the USFS. It is in no way deserving of Wilderness designation.
To return to the myth that because I ride a bike in order to enjoy the wilds yet I am less reverent or pure due to my chosen method of recreation.
What gives you the right to judge how I view the land?
Thanks in advance.
I'm not judging your love of wild country. If you love wild country you will support it everywhere--as I do. And I encourage you to enjoy wild country when and where you can by accessing them without a bike and/or other mechanical transport.
I suspect you already do on occasion as is likely the case for all mountain bikers. That's all I'm suggesting--go without the bike--you and anyone else is welcome in wilderness--just leave things like chain saws, generators, dirt bikes, snowmobiles, go carts, motor boats, jet skis, four wheelers, para sails, etc.etc. etc. and bikes at home.
1) The largest membership-based mountain biking organization is on record with its support for literally dozens of Wilderness proposals: http://www.imba.com/news/omnibus-bill-unlikely
2) To compare a healthy outdoor activity like cycling to smoking in public areas is a gross distortion. Mountain biking promotes good health.
3) Wilderness is not the only designation capable of protecting land from development and extraction.
4) It's asinine to argue that supporting land protection should be unrelated to recreation interests, then rail against the impact bikes have to -- not the natural world -- but a competing recreational activity, namely foot travel. What's the basis of the argument? That bikes degrade ecosystems or that they degrade competing types of recreation? Constantly conflating the two is illogical.
your the only one who sounds like a bigot. You and skinner that is.
MT has 3 million some aught acres of wilderness vs. 27 million acres of public land. Most of the wilderness areas in MT did'nt have historic bike use. Yet the mtn biking community is hellbent on opening bicycycle in these areas. Is that other 24 million acres not enough for you mtn bikers. I think you need to learn to share.
not a single Mtn Biker has posted any facts or statistics reagrding lands open to bikes vs wilderness areas.
I'll try once more with a different tack to try to explain things.
I do not view mountain biking as "ugly" as you suggest. I ride one myself.
It's a matter of where those machines are used. On a lot of public lands, bike riding is appropriate, but not everywhere.
I like riding my bike. I encourage more bike transport. I'm a big supporter of urban bike lanes, bike bridges, and other efforts to increase biking as a transportation option as well as for pleasure riding. I think biking is great exercise.
It's a matter of where these things occur.
As much as I am an advocate of bikes as transportation, I would not support bikes on sidewalks with pedestrians. I would not advocate bike riding in schools, libraries, cafes, and a host of other places that are incompatible.
It is no different than with my vehicle. I drive to the trailhead. But I don't drive on the trail. Even if I could argue that my vehicle might have less impact than horses or other other use (and some thrillcraft probably do have less immediate impact on trails than a big pack string of horses) that does not mean it's appropriate to expand vehicles into wilderness.
It's amount of limits. That is what growing up is all about. I have teens right now who think they should be permitted to do anything they want. Why can't I stay out until midnight, they will ask me or why can't I go to this party or whatever. I don't let them do whatever they want--a good parent recognizes that one must learn to live with limitations.
As I have said numerous times before, everyone is welcome to enter a wilderness. But mechanical transport is not welcome. And I fear if this limitation is violated, there will be no effective way to argue against any other new or improved use that comes along--perhaps things we could never imagine.
When I was a kid, I don't think any of us riding our bikes ever imagined we could climb mountains on them. The technology just wasn't there. You and I can not even begin to imagine what will be.
Sometimes New West offers a soapbox to bikers. It has happened.
What I would like to see is an objective article addressing the many points that have been brought up in this ongoing debate. Wilderness advocates cannot write objectively and neither can bicycle advocates.
Bill Schneider came close with his wilderness lite articles, but still missed the mark. I keep thinking about the title of the PBS radio show "All things considered". An article could strive to reach conclusions, or not. But to find the truth, all things must be considered.
An article written with an inclusive goal may even take a collaborative effort from several authors. It would point out the strengths, weaknesses and fallicies of everyones position, the problems with our land managment laws, and how these laws can effect or benefit wildlife, society, and our economy.
New West, be responsible and step up. Or let the ranting continue. Your choice.
Purists, True Believers, have their place. Wilderness is one. The tyranny of the democratic majority has no place in this argument, and this is not the time, to change the law and its intent. As many have said, there is ample space and trails to service the needs of the technology dependent younger folks.
Of course, once you have allowed bikes, then there will be secret power packs that assist bikers, and enforcement of the law will be lax, and a lot of "I told you..." will be said. Or just renegade trail bikers. The Honda 90 folks. The machine that replaced the horse for the Taliban. Sort of like the people who sneak a chain saw in during hunting season, or just before, and cut their wood, and then pack the saw out before law enforcement is around to check hunters or the land managers find out and try to catch the "crooks." You hear them at night, but not even night vision can find them. Always there will be cheaters.
Just like there are streams with fly fishing only, and some go further, and only dry flies, no strike indicators, or weights on flies. The North Umpqua River in Oregon is one of those. A public resource reserved for a few. And if you want to be in a drift boat and bounce eggs for a steelhead, the other 99% of the streams with adequate water depth and flow are available.
My issue is that there is enough Wilderness, and what exists should be protected as the law says and used as the law says. And the rest of public lands should be open to myriad light hand on the land uses. And if you think your life is impacted because you can't ride your bike on a public land trail due to the law, think about those towns, families, past business investments, all now gone when it was decided by the same people that logging was a bad deal. There are counties and towns that will not be offering government services in the near future because there is no longer sufficient tax base to support government, to keep the school open, the courthouse open, because there is no economy and no money. A bunch of tightwad Wilderness hikers does not make an economy. Selling sno-cones to passers-by does not constitute an industry. And the people who are most passionate about preservation of land are also cheap brown baggers who pride themselves on how they can avoid buying any goods or services where they use the public resource they think the billionaires ought to be providing for them. A bunch of cheap ass mountain bikers blowing all the water bars out of the trails, water bars built by volunteers, mostly horse trail riders, is not an environmentally sound practice, and there is never enough money to maintain trails.
I seriously do propose the Congress levy an excise tax on all bicycles to pay for trail repair and maintenance on public lands, and to pay for all the signage and painted lines in urban areas to delineate where and how traffic can operate in the separation of bikes and cars, buses, and trucks. If you really think you want to influence public policy, you first have to be a part of funding. Income taxes don't count. Every other means of mechanized transportation has to pay, and it is high time bikes also pay. Tax the bikes at the source. The manufacturer. The importer. If so many can afford ten thousand dollar bikes, like Senator Heinz-Kerry, then they can afford to pay accordingly for their ride and the wear and tear, the law enforcement, in and on the landscape the ride causes.
And for Wilderness trails maintenance, an excise tax on outdoor gear in general would do wonders for the funding. Or at least, it would create a pot of money the Congress could use for something else as is their habit. That would give the hikers a reason to whine.
your claim that helicopters are'nt allowed in wilderness for rescues is not true.
I personally participated in a helicopter resuce for an injured hunter/stock user out of a wilderness area this fall with the local search and resuce and the forest service.
Signs are not being removed either, though mileages to certain areas are often removed becuasse that info. should be available on your forest map.
Thanks for statting some facts about the trail damage bikes do. It's astonishing the way that mtn bikers refuse to admit their bikes have impacts on the trails and often cause closures of them due to rampant overuse with large numberso bikers traveling together. For examplt the Rattlesnake Recreation Area outside of Missoula has numerous trails closed to all due to overuse by bikers. Guess what the bikers remvoed the obstacles to the trail and contniue riding it illegally.
I cannot write objectively. I'm partially handicapped by age related breakdown and therefore wedded to my bicycle. I'm an amateur writer on my best days. Just because I have vision doesn't mean I'm capable of writing. But teamed with a couple other people I could probably bring balance and objectivity to an article that would attempt to find the truth of the matter.
Ain't gonna happen this month. plus it's up to New West to intitiate the concept.
sorry to hear about your partial handicaps.
Hope you find a good team to work with, and that new west does initiate the concept with sources from the full spectrum of public land users.
"Keeping in mind that (W)ilderness is not a religion or first amendment right but a land protection tool - what are WE protecting with a Congressional (W)ilderness designation that cannot be accomplished with a well written, strongly worded, legally binding and collaboratively supported companion designation that offers the SAME protection from mining, logging, new roads, structures and expanded motorized use but still allows bicycling on SOME important TRAILS within a larger protected LANDSCAPE that could / would include new bicycle banning Wilderness acreage?? Are these not the goals of the (W)ilderness advocate? What IS the argument here? Is it the color of my skin – er – mode of quiet recreation you reject?"
So your invitation that we're welcome in Wilderness if we'll walk, while undoubtedly sincere, just doesn't cut it. I don't mean to compare apples and oranges, but you might as well tell gay people that they can always marry, as long as they're willing to find someone of the opposite sex, or a religious minority that they're welcome in a neighborhood with restrictive housing convenants as long as they're willing to convert to Christianity. (Again, no precise comparison intended about the forms of discrimination; I'm talking only about how unpersuasive such arguments are going to be to mountain bikers as an excluded group, whether people think such feelings are justifiable or not.)
That said, "quiet" does not prevent erosion or conflict. Quiet implies "good" mechanical means. The law says no to mechanical means. Living organisms, like people, horses, mules, burros, llamas, dogs are allowed. That transportation forged from flame and earth are not. The law is anachronistic because it was written before computer code, high tech metals, and REI. Bikes are not ever going to be allowed in Wilderness. Never. Unless, of course, you can find a Supreme Court that will legislate from the bench. And then Katy-bar-the-door. Ten to one you would have a Honda trail bike case that expanded the intent of the Supremes, and then all is lost.
The Wilderness Act is one of those things like a mostly dried out cow flop: innocent use of space until kicked, and then even though mostly green on the inside, it will be messy for a while longer. Better the flop left alone. Better the Wilderness Act left alone. If you want to ride bicycles on trails, don't make your fun area into a new Wilderness. Pretty simple, really. And I do believe some places are best off being Wilderness, and then with access so difficult and trying as to discourage 99% of those who would want to access it. That way the security of the whole is much better protected. If you want a zoo, make some more National Parks, and have your drive through, ride through, Wildlife Safari experience. This country is large enough to have that, too.
Remember, the most egregious misuse of public wildlands right now is Mexican dope cartel grow sites. Hundreds if not thousands of them, and every one a certain and destructive degradation of the landscape and watershed. The reason they exist, in such numbers, is that public land law enforcement is not doing its job. Not enough people, boots on the ground. Not enough Mexican Americans to be plain clothes cops in small rural towns to see who is buying the large grocery loads, sacks of fertilizer and pesticides. Who is getting drip tube and fittings? And we will never know because you would have to "profile" for Hispanics to make a dent in the abuse of our public lands. Illegal alien civil rights come first, and they get to use your wildlands while law abiding public users wait for permission. Not fair, maybe, but the way things work. And not riding a bike on Wilderness trails might not be "fair", but it is the law of the land. And a law I don't see being changed in my lifetime.
http://outsideonline.com/outside/culture/201003/wilderness-bicycle-ban.html
Spurning Rubber
The government's ban on bicycles in wilderness areas is dead wrong.
By John Bradley
AT SOME POINT nearly every new mountain biker makes the same sad discovery: Bicycles are banned from this country's 170,000 square miles of Wilderness. That's Wilderness with a capital W—those lands protected by the Wilderness Act of 1964. You can explore them by horseback, backcountry ski, or kayak, but not by bicycle. And with every new Wilderness designation, someone else's favorite trail gets closed to bikes forever.
Through years of misinformation, mountain bikes have gotten lumped in with ATVs, snowmobiles, and other maligned vehicles by people citing environmental concerns. But on several different metrics—erosion, runoff, soil compaction, loss of vegetation—study after study has found the trail impact of mountain bikers to be equal to or less than that caused by hikers, and far less than equestrians. A 2006 study by the National Park Service concluded that "Horse and ATV trails are significantly more degraded than hiking and biking trails...[T]he proportion of trails with severe erosion...is 24% for ATV trails, 9% for horse trails, 1.4% for hiking trails and 0.6% for bike trails."
If the goal truly is environmental protection, bike bans are off-topic. The Wilderness Act actually makes no mention of bicycles. What it does ban, explicitly, is motorized vehicles and, generally, "mechanical transport." This is the language used to keep bikes out of Wilderness areas, but such an absolutist interpretation of the word mechanical would also forbid ski bindings, snowshoes, and even rafts with oarlocks. Though currently allowed in Wilderness areas, all of these conveyances provide a mechanical advantage.
Of course, the authors of the Wilderness Act never meant to ban any of these. A 2004 review of the legislation by a staff attorney for California's Supreme Court found that "Congress did not intend for the Act to prohibit human-powered transport...Accordingly, the regulations of the Forest Service...prohibiting mountain bike use in Wilderness require reevaluation."
In fact, bikes weren't even banned until 1984, when the U.S. Forest Service refined regulations prohibiting their use. Depending on whose boundaries they overlap, Wilderness areas come under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service, National Park Service, Fish and Wildlife Service, or Bureau of Land Management. When the Forest Service moved against bikes, the other agencies followed.
The only people who had heard of mountain bikes in 1984 were the sport's pioneers and the groups with whom they were beginning to share trails. Those groups—hikers and equestrians with large, established organizations—joined forces under a banner of environmental protection and pushed for rules that closed Wilderness trails to anyone but themselves. Yes, that's really what happened.
Though the existing Wilderness ban is unjust by any practical measure, rolling it back would require a bureaucratic 180, an act of Congress, or an executive order, scenarios that the Boulder, Colorado–based International Mountain Bicycling Association (IMBA) has accepted as virtually impossible. So the sport's largest advocacy group spends its resources fighting to protect existing access in areas that could get Wilderness designations. For example, Forest Service proposals in Montana could ban bikes from any areas that might theoretically be designated as Wilderness. Cyclists in that state might soon lose portions of four national forests based on some bureaucrat thinking those areas should one day become Wilderness.
In order to avoid such blanket bans, IMBA works with environmental groups, land agencies, and legislators to create nuanced "companion designations" for new Wilderness areas. These congressional designations, like National Conservation Area, National Recreation Area, and National Protection Area, offer many of the same safeguards as Wilderness regulations but without the bike ban.
Say you want 100,000 acres set aside as Wilderness, but 3,000 of those acres contain trails where mountain bikers have been riding for decades. In the IMBA model, those 3,000 acres get some other designation that preserves both the environment and bike access. In return, the cyclists not only join their former adversaries in lobbying for the Wilderness designation but also in pushing for further protections of surrounding lands.
This isn't hypothetical. In 2009, IMBA partnered with Oregon Wild on a bill to designate 34,000 acres of National Recreation Area within a new 127,000-acre Wilderness. That's a nice save, by any measure. But such victories, however hard-won, will always feel a bit hollow as long as the Forest Service's wrongheaded bike ban remains.
Fifty years ago, in a mid sized town in Oregon, I hunted pheasants on my way to school off my Schwinn paper boy bike. Kept my shotgun and shell vest in my locker, the Model 12 broke down. I always carried a pocket knife. I got in fist fights at noon or after school, in that teenage king-of-the-mountain sortie into enemy territory and the establishment of the pecking order. I didn't study and got a 1365 SAT score. If it were not for football, college would not have kept me interested. In summer, we rode single speed bikes down the ski runs in summer just to keep the need for speed intact. In winter we would shoot the whole mountain in the fall line for the same reason. The skiing public hated that, and so they should. It was selfish, greedy, and not a proper use of a facility for all. And then you get older. You start to lose micro managed reflexes at about 28. You no longer can jump from this stump to that stump. At forty, you begin to run out of air non stopping it up the unit from the bottom. And you finally figure out that what is lost is lost for good in your fifties. And recreation is taken at a slower pace, and your scope of interest has widened considerably. Hiking at a brisk pace becomes more like hiking at a possible pace. You no longer hear as well. You don't see as well. And then here comes some young asshole on a mountain bike running you off the trail, invective is hurled, and the last you see is some kid blasting down the trail, his head turned your way, and the third metacarpal extended right at you. And that is why Wilderness will always be verbotten to bicycles. My vote. My influence. My interests. And my extended middle finger. Touche'.
I'm fine with bikes in new wilderness/roadless even though i don't agree with it.
I stand against opening old wilderness areas with no historic bike use to bikes.
My stance is much more reasonable than the mtn bikers insistence on opening any/all wilderness.
Thye HATE the wilderness act and there are hundreds of comments prooving my claim.
if even Bearbait is on the side of wilderness advocates on this issue, that speaks volumes.
what are you talking about walking in wilderness does'nt offer personal challenge or relatively minimal physical fitness benefits.
In reality walking and swimming are the best forms of excersize.
Mtn biking is good for your knees, cardio.
Ever try hiking for weeks in the Frank Church Wilderness with a pack?
Ever run fior shelter during a windstorm in a blackened snag patch?
Do those things and then claim walking in wilderness does'nt offer personal challenge.
All your comments proove is that mtn biking is your life and you don't like walking because your not biking.
comparing your want to bike in wilderness to the struggles of minority (persecuted) religions and gay people's rights is really disgusting.
I don't care if you did'nt mean a "precise comparison"
Find a better, less offensive way to state your arguments.
Some Wilderness, and parts of many, are so fragile, and tenuous, that not fighting forest fires, allowing unrestricted use and visits, and other impacts degrade those special places to where the original protection has no meaning, offers no protection, and possibly produced a negative result.
Some places are incubators for species that spread to land beyond that protected by Wilderness. Best we do as much as possible to protect the incubators. And not denying mountain bike use, and creating trails and access, defeats the very purpose of the specific need for Wilderness designation of that area.
My opinion and quarter, and you still can't buy a hamburger. I accept that. But Wilderness has its place, and so do mountain bikes. Just not in Wilderness. A lifetime logger, I accepted Wilderness long ago. And for areas I don't think are in need of some sort of very restrictive protection provided for by the Wilderness Act of 1964, I oppose the designation. I also oppose National Monument designation as a way to circumvent the public process as per Clinton-Babbitt....I very well know how restrictive Wilderness designation is. I accept it. I think it is just, in some places. A pinch of salt can make something desirable, and a cup of salt can kill all desire. That is the lesson of "dose." How much to use. And Wilderness can be an overdose in some instances. So I would think the mountain bike lobby needs to identify and protect their interest, and not try to carve it out of already specifically protected land. When you show up late at the table, don't expect all you can eat and hot, too.
'A bunch of cheap ass mountain bikers blowing all the water bars out of the trails, water bars built by volunteers, mostly horse trail riders, is not an environmentally sound practice, and there is never enough money to maintain trails.'
Water bar installation should be banned on our public lands and replaced by grade reversals to mitigate water issues on trails as they are safer for all users and are subjectively 'more natural.'
All new trail construction built to modern standards use trail design to manage water, speed and users. Any failing water bars should not be replaced with the same.
I would bet my last dollar that if you reached out to your local bicyclists, they would be more than happy to volunteer to help you rebuild your favorite trail to a safer and more sustainable standard.
In our area cyclists regularly team up with the Backcountry Horseman to accomplish needed trail work. Broadly generalizing - the usually aging horse people are happy to pack in the tools, food and beer while the younger backs ride their bicycles in to put the tools to use on the ground. Great Teamwork and Community building opportunity that gets much needed trail work done at minimum expense, in any, to the public.
Reach out - you just may be surprised!
So you admit you have bitter resentment (Hatred) for the wilderness act.
You claim I am only semi-literate, and ignorant and stupid.
No where do you mention mtn bikers or wilderness or respond to any of my objections to your comments except to say that "ill have to remaind disgusted"
You claim you have the justification to feel bitter resentment towards wilderness advocates, in the same way that people who are persecuted for their religion or sexual orientation.
Your points ARE very clear pragmatist, but if only you actually HAD one.
You call people names, post no facts/stats, articles, blogs etc.; offer no real argemtns or points, stray very far from the topic and then claim I am ignorant and stupid.
It's quite obvious who's stupid here.
I mention Bearbait's support of the Wilderness Act as it stands, becuase he is a right wing former Tongass National Forest logger whom you would'nt expect to support such concepts.
Hardly one of the "selfish greens" that many mtn bikers try to claim are the only opponents to mtn bikes in wilderness areas.
http://www.angerclassonline.com/default.aspx?gclid=CJT1mrrM4qUCFVdn5QodfUpx1w
http://outsideonline.com/outside/culture/201003/wilderness-bicycle-ban.html
Montana Bob
October 27, 2010 "Totally disagree with Bradley's point here. MTB's are machines, they are MECHANICAL. Skiis slide, kayaks float and horses are natural to the environment. Bikes require a combination of chains, cogs and a derailleur to move those wheels over terrain. Look, I am a hardcore mtb'er but I also respect our original American idea of protected wilderness. We will only open a can of worms by considering mtb use in wilderness... The ATV industry is watching very closely. "
Steve
October 27, 2010 "These people are actually working towards the goal of allowing bicycles in wilderness:
http://www.wildernessbicycling.org/
Their web site contains much interesting information on what is currently allowed in many wilderness areas (such as ranching, mining, airstrips, commercial pack outfitters, and power boats), how the bicycle ban came about (not from the original Wilderness Act), and so on."
http://www.wildernessbicycling.org/bikesbelong/exceptions_in_wild.html
All the more reason to INCREASE protection for our wilderness areas, not decrease.
As for the gonzo and inconsiderate mountain biker hurtling at you (or any of us) when our reflexes aren't as good as they once were, I detest that behavior too. I also don't like being tailgated on the freeway, however, and yet I wouldn't prohibit freeway access as the solution. Also, there are so many (I'm guessing) thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of miles of Wilderness trails that I doubt the unpleasant encounter is going occur very often. Is this really a practical concern if mountain bikers can officially ride in Wilderness? (I wonder if they already do, by the way, unofficially.)
And when they run out of arguments, they go back to: " but but you're welcome in wilderness, just don't bring your bike" asinine argument. How about we change wilderness rules so that hikers are welcome in wilderness, but they can't bring their carbon fiber trekking poles and shoes?
The sad part is that the Sierra Club is full of mother nature worshippers that toe that same party line.
In the meantime, we can still ride it as long as we're stealthy. :)
I always enjoy reading Bearbait's insightful and wit-filled comments. His words clearly stand on their own. We the viewing public don't need a world-according-to-Larix commentary, analysis and suspicions about who someone might or might not be in real life.
You wrote: "I mention Bearbait's support of the Wilderness Act as it stands, becuase he is a right wing former Tongass National Forest logger whom you would'nt expect to support such concepts."
What do you exactly mean by this? Wait, it's a rhetorical question, I don't want an answer... Silence!
So continue to falter you may proceed .
Wilderness, as defined by the Wilderness Act of 1964, is “an area where earth and its community of life are untrammelled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain…where the effect of man and his civilization do not exist…” The main reason for Wilderness is to provide a balance to offset the effects of civilization and satisfy the basic instincts of man. The act further states that “considering the non-renewability of Wilderness areas, constant attention must be aimed at preserving its quality and integrity.” In Section 2 (a) of the act it says, “ In order to assure that an increasing population, accompanied by expanding settlement and growing mechanization, does not occupy and modify all areas within the U.S. and it’s possessions, leaving no land designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition.”
So why are we continuing to have this discussion? Mechanized vehicles are not compatible with Wilderness. Maintaining watersheds and critical habitat for animal and plants life, as well as preserving the natural world and the aesthetic values of wilderness are the hallmarks of Wilderness. There’s a spirit of wilderness that spirit is compromised by the ever growing assault from technological advances of civilization. Wilderness is a safe haven from which humans can seek relief, refuge and solitude from this fast paced technological world we live in.
Let’s go even beyond what humans can get from Wilderness, let’s consider the importance of wilderness for the sake of wilderness. This takes humility and self-restraint. It’s the opposite of being egocentric. In fact, some of the arguments and statements from mountain bikers are rather narcissistic in nature. Narcissism is defined by a grandiose sense of self-importance and sense of entitlement; lacking in empathy and understanding for anything but their own interest; and an arrogant and sometimes haughty attitude. There’s no place in wilderness for these attitudes.
Wilderness is a place greater than us. It’s a place where we are not in control and thus allow nature to be nature without interference from humans. It’s a place that is left alone, unimpaired and unchanged for future generations.
Another person who confuses trails with Wilderness.
Why are we continuing to have this discussion?
Because demagogues like George want to tell us what we are doing offends his sensibilities.
If you want bikes allowed in proposed Wilderness, then you are talking about another issue altogether. Each Wilderness is voted in on its own merits and inclusions or exclusions. Grazing, the boundary gerrymandered around a road that has to be kept open to access private lands, there are always issues.
The Hells Canyon NRA has a road that was intended to be NOT in the Wilderness. After the passing of the legislation, it was discovered that a small piece of the road had mistakenly been included in the Wilderness portion of the NRA legislation. So that road is closed. And the USFS is in the process of building a jeep road around the Wilderness boundary to connect the two sections of a 17 miles road with a half mile section mistakenly included in Wilderness. No matter. Building a by-pass, a jitney road, a shoo fly, is much easier and possible than changing existing Wilderness designation. Nobody wants to open the can of worms. Let the genie out of the bottle. That example is why the issue of bikes in existing Wilderness is a foregone conclusion: NO BIKES. It is the law.
Think about it: if the law were clear that bicycles aren't allowed in Wilderness, why would George Wuerthner and many others write about the topic so much? They could just sit back and let rangers write tickets. There'd be nothing to discuss.
The reason bicycles in Wilderness is debated on the policy level (when there's a mature debate, which often there isn't) is that the legal foundations for the no-bikes rule are exceedingly shaky. The Wilderness purists know this, otherwise, as stated, they'd clam up; it would be water under the bridge as far as they're concerned.
As I explained in my 2004 Penn State Environmental Law Review article (linked to below), here's the state of the law:
1. The Wilderness Act of 1964 was silent on bicycles. It did forbid "mechanical transport" in Wilderness, which sounds like it ought to include bikes, but the bill's legally significant background showed that members of Congress meant to allow light transport even if mechanically assisted. They were worried about other things that required permanent installations (like sailboats) or that shepherded around people and cargo (like wagons and barges).
2. The Forest Service correctly understood this intent and in 1966 it put out a regulation, which is still active and in force, saying that "mechanical transport" meant transport that is NOT muscle-powered.
3. Unfortunately, in 1977 someone else in the Forest Service issued a contradictory regulation saying no bikes in Wilderness. This was a Forest Service employee or department, not Congress, which is supposed to write our laws. But because of other laws, the Forest Service regulation is enforceable, i.e., you could get a ticket by violating it even though Congress never acted on the question of bikes in Wilderness.
4. The Forest Service has never corrected the inconsistency in its 1966 and 1977 regulations. Were it to do so, it almost certainly would have to allow bikes, because all the evidence is that Congress did not intend to forbid them.
5. Later, the National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management went along with the Forest Service. But in each case the agency regulation is wrong and not supported by the Wilderness Act.
6. Thus, it is only a matter of time until the agencies rewrite and overturn their own regulations, or someone successfully challenges them in court.
7. And that is why the Wilderness purists engage in this debate—because they know this too.
I hope the foregoing is even more clear than prior statements on this thread. Please read my law review article for more detailed information on this subject: http://www.imba.com/resources/land-protection/legal-analysis. You do not have to be a lawyer to understand it, just an intelligent reader.
A key member of Congress explained what the no-mechanical-transport rule meant: no towing around people or cargo. The legislative record suggests that that's the true meaning of the "mechanical transport" prohibition, even if it's not the agencies' most recent interpretation of it.
The Forest Service read the Wilderness Act correctly at first and issued its 1966 regulation, which is still good, that says human-powered transport is OK. It's the contradictory 1977 regulation (also still good) that's the problem. It has much less to back it up than the 1966 regulation does.
That said, one never knows how a court is going to rule on something this complicated and subtle. So don't go on a bicycle ride in Wilderness in hopes of getting a ticket and challenging the law. You could lose even if the better legal argument is in your favor, as I'm convinced it is.
Good paper covering legal aspects of the Wilderness Act. I can tell you're a smart guy. Wish you could just want to preserve wilderness for its own sake--not based on whether you or anyone else can ride a bike or roller blade or whatever in wilderness.
Most wilderness proponents I know work to protect lands that in most cases they will never set foot on. They do this not to further their own particular recreational activity but because they believe it's important to have places where we draw a line in the sand and say no. I only wish mountain bikers would adopt this same philosophy.
Geo, we are sick and tired unto death of people drawing lines in the sand and telling us "NO".
You can wish with one hand and shit in the other, tell we which hand fills up first.
If you want the mountain biking community to be allies, you must first treat us as allies.
So, I don't think that bicycles in Wilderness has yet to make it to Federal Court, and some wise commentator noted that when you take something like that to the Courts, you have no idea of what the result will be. In this case, and address, the 9th Circuit would hear the arguments of any decision appealed out of a District Court. Good luck with those people.
So, we are back to the crusted over cow flop: Do you really want to kick it? Do you really want to pick that scab? Whose "weegie" board do you want to be "the decider?" Or, in a moment of sanity, would the bicycle proponents use their heads and make sure in any additional Wilderness, specific language be added that permitted bicycles (and you had better damned well describe exactly what will now and forever be constructed and construed to be a "bicycle") in the new Wilderness? You will get a fight, for sure. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Compromise. That is where conflict is resolved. In Congress, in the public discourse. When so many have issues, and feel invested, without compromise there will never be a decision, steps forward taken, strife laid to rest. That rubber has met the road in Congress, this week, in a compromise that the far left and far right do not like in any way. The leaders of this country for the next decade are right now being forged in this crucible of divergent ideas that only can be resolved by compromise. The strongest will emerge and I will bet President Obama will be stronger for his play in the game, and the most strident of the far left and right will be once again lonely voices howling for their own ears. The outcomes will chart the course of this country for a decade or more. Bikes in Wilderness are not going to rise to the forefront of the political discourse according to my crystal ball. We live in interesting times.
First, thank you.
Second, I think you'll find few people more fervent about preserving America's wildlands than the mountain bikers capable of riding in them. But a Wilderness designation isn't necessary to preserve a natural setting.
If I were confronted with a situation in which a beautiful area could ONLY be designated Wilderness or strip-mined, I'm sure I'd favor Wilderness for it even if I couldn't ride there. Those aren't the only options, however.
IMBA has come up with what it calls "companion designations" that will protect the land and yet allow quiet human-powered activities. I don't know how much headway it's made with those land-use alternatives, but that's where we need to go.
Frankly, I see things the other way from you: because Wilderness devotees are adamant that only 19th century means of travel (foot and horseback) are morally tolerable in Wilderness, THEY are willing to risk sacrificing majestic National Forest areas to grazing, mining, logging, etc., through a loss of a more protective designation if that's what it takes to keep bicycles out.
Someone above said, well, what about other ingenious forms of human-powered transport that could come along in the future? I'd allow them in Wilderness: mountain boards, unicycles, snow kites, pogo sticks, the lot. Humans operating under our own power are never going to be able to scar the landscape, nor will we annoy other users unless they have the fabled princess-and-the-pea level of sensitivity. And in that case, let them pool their resources and (borrowing from the princess and the pea metaphor) buy the equivalent of forty mattresses in the form of some private land where they won't have to see anyone other than their mirror images.
I'm all in favor of grandfathering bicycle use into new Wilderness legislation, on trails where bicycles have been ridden. Then I wouldn't have to oppose such legislation. I have the impression, however, that the Wilderness activists would regard any such initiative as the equivalent of hacking away at Michelangelo's Pietà with a hammer (as László Tóth infamously did in 1972).
It's interesting to see all your comments. Many of you are articulate and well informed. And you often make very good persuasive points.Thanks for sharing your passion. Oh do I wish we had you working that passion for more wilderness regardless of bike access. Guess I can always hope that will come.
Geo.
Hey, if you have "standing" (hard to prove nowadays, if you have not been an active participant in writing letters of appeal or disagreement with the decision to ban bikes), have the money to get started, can find more than adequate counsel, find enough free interns or whatever to dig out the evidence to back your position, you can challenge the Feds. It is far easier if you are in their inner circle every day, a part of all decision making on land management issues, as are the leading NGOs and all their local affiliates. Maybe you can find a law school to take your issue to court. Or a prominent NGO...and maybe some snow balls in hell. The deck is more than stacked against mountain bikes in existing Wilderness. The Mother Earth lobby will protect its gains with all it possesses.
So, you might kick, and miss many, many times, that crusted over cow flop. That is how the American Way is stacked against Joe Sixpack these days. If mountain biking in Wilderness is a cause celebrated in the hallowed halls of the elite universities and colleges that seem to lard the halls of government with bright young minds and bodies, it might have a chance. The problem, of course, is all the alums of the very same schools, of a certain age, are against you. Maybe it is just a deal where it is going to take time and timely deaths to gain any foothold. I have lived in the rural West, and have watched the true suffering and societal rot from past decisions to protect the precious environment. Every morning I read of another school district, another county government, all in areas of former economic stability when the government sold timber, deciding to close another school, lay off another phalanx of teachers, shorten the school year another ten days. 35th or whatever it is we are now ranked in the world of education, is last year. We are hell bent to be in the 50th percentile and lower. Shaboom shaboom, has been replace with dissident "Kaboom!!!" Whether to ride a bike in a Wilderness or fund a school is our present choice of how public money and effort should be spent. This bike deal gets pretty frivolous and petty as it continues to be discussed.
Bigsky I did'nt post those comments but I suspect zebulon did.
Newwest needs to do recognize imposters posting comments.
Apologize some liar was posing as me.
They are ldishonest and have to resort to lies to furthur their agenda and cause conflict.
Whoever did this is a pathetic LIAR.
The last REAL post from I concerned the outside article.
They are obviuosly afraid that most people don't want mtn bikers in wilderness and resort to these absolutely lowly tactics.
though the imposter did a crafty job as inserting their owmn typos.
Take note how zebulon brags about breaking the law and riding in wilderness "as long as we're stealthy", offers no argument, facts/stats/articles/blogs, but has plenty of insults.
Considering his/her/it's comments directly follow mine I am quite certain he's the imposter. Newwest should remove his/her/it's comments.
Hey Zebulon are you upset that I put you in your plce on the other blog now you have to pose as me and post lies.
How low can you sink zebulon?
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/ominbus_wilderness_bill_likely/C564/L564/#comments
Check out zebulon's comments on this thread to get an idea of the tactic's from this low life.
If you can't figure out my point by mentioning the fact that beabait is right wing, former Tongass logger who supports wilderness despite his own aspirations than you are lost to me.
BTW we don't need a world of public lands dictated soley by recreational intrerests...silence.
Then you resort to posing as another blogger and posting insulting commemnts.
LIAR.
Otherwise the tactics of folks like zebulon who LIE and pose as others will continue.
Until then i'm done, too many LIARS like zebulon posing as others and confusing things.
Celebrate all you want mtn ikers and other but I have offered a middle of the road perspective on this even proposing grandfathering in bikes into wildernes areas where there was histroci use as well as all new roadless/wilderness. Despite my position the mtn bikers have attacked me as a radical wildernut.
I have lost any respect I have for the Mtn Bike community and will be sending these threads to various agencies. I think they will be most interested in comments from zebulon bragging about breaking the law and riding in wilderness.
(1) IN GENERAL – Congress reaffirms that nothing in the Wilderness Act prohibits wheelchair use in a wilderness area by an individual whose disability requires its use. The Wilderness Act requires no agency to provide any form of special treatment or accommodation or to construct any facilities or modify any conditions of lands within a wilderness area to facilitate such use.
Federally Designated Wilderness
(2) Definition – for the purposes of paragraph (1), the term wheelchair means a device designed solely for use by a mobility impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.”
http://www.wilderness.net/toolboxes/documents/accessibility/DOJ_Wilderness_Accessibility_Update_August2010.pdf
Wheelchairs are allowed in wilderness, but no special accomodations are currently installed.
Thought you'd like to know fenske.
Stealth mountain biking in Wilderness: how is that different from SSS?
It is correct that Congress allowed wheelchairs into Wilderness areas by statute. (42 U.S.C. § 12207.) The wheelchair lobby has more clout than the mountain bike lobby and wouldn't tolerate third-class status, so it got the bill through. The result is yet another irony: if you have two wheels side by side, you can ride in Wilderness all you want. If one wheel is in front of the other, you can't, even though Congress hasn't prohibited it!
Of course moves are afoot to turn White Mountain Peak into Wilderness, meaning Bob could still go on his wheels but I wouldn't be allowed to on mine.
Incidentally regarding Kilimanjaro, ultrafit athlete Martina Navratalova just had to abandon her attempt to climb it. She got pulmonary edema, couldn't breathe, and had to be carried down. Heard it on the radio this morning.
I have to agree. I feel slightly embarrassed posting on this topic when two million people are about to lose their unemployment benefits and could wind up homeless. Truly, this is a debate among the privileged, including me. I'm well aware of it.
FYI I worked for 6 seasons as a Wilderness Ranger in the Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness, I am quite aware of the management of Wilderness.
Just like I am aware of the mechanical advantages that rafters are allowed in that Wilderness. Or the grandfathered in allowance for aircraft, jet boats and gasp!!!!! automobiles. Or the cherry stemmed roads to mining claims or other in-holdings.
If you want additional Wilderness you are going to have to compromise. That is a basic tenet that this country was founded on. Mountain Bikers have compromised again and again only to lose access to more and more areas.
Not another inch!
I have old ties to Bishop Ca and had ridden my bike up White Mountain Peak. I am aware that it is now surrounded by Wilderness designation except for the cherry stem road to the summit. Is there a new effort building to take the cherry stem road in a wilderness bill as well?
Thanks again for another thoughtful response and giving advice to the other 'Bob' on parenting and growing up – whatever that means. Your last responses continue to side step the standing question of why not a companion designation or boundary adjustment in tandem with new (W)ilderness to protect future landscapes? I will also try a different tack to put my question in another context. Do not construe my comments to mean that I am advocating getting bicycles into existing (W)ilderness areas. I am talking about protecting wildscapes that are presently being visited, valued and cared for by TRAIL BASED bicyclists.
Besides wildscape protection and opportunities for recreation on our public lands, there is another important factor that has yet to be explored in this endless chase-our-tail-blogging-babble. The economics of recreation is another key leg of the tripod that must balance landscape/wildlife protection, recreational access and economic potential.
A great case study of where a Wilderness designation severely and needlessly limits the economic health of a community is in Lima, Montana. This example again begs the question – what are we protecting with a (W)ilderness designation only?
Sitting as a remote gateway between the Lima Peaks and the Centennial Valley in the extreme southwest corner of Montana, LIMA is a one exit town of 250 residents that clings to a presently non-existent railroading past, cattle ranching and the economic blip of hunting season. Not much commerce comes to the dramatically and starkly beautiful southern end of Beaverhead County. The Continental Divide runs down the mountainous spine west of town that is the Montana / Idaho border and casts a long shadow over this once vibrant hub town now in decline. 100 students and shrinking in the K-12 school.
7 miles west of the Lima Interstate 15 exit is the trailhead of the Middle Fork of Little Sheep Creek. This non-motorized trail climbs to the south eventually joining the CDT and dropping over the top to Sawmill Creek. Little Sheep Creek is the kind of trail that folks go out of their way to ride. Starting in a beautiful timbered drainage the trail eventually climbs above tree line for limitless views east up the Centennial Valley and over on the Ruby, Snowcrest and the Gravelly ranges. A spectacular and special place!
All summer long people on their annual pilgrimage in their FAMILY THRILL CRAFT-sters make their way too and from Montana along I-15. Many of these fine upstanding gasoline using American citizens (and multi-national tourists) have bicycles on the roofs of their cars. And having evolved with the mountain bicycle they have come to appreciate and search out worthy rides while exploring what it means to be a visitor to American’s unmatched public lands. Maybe they’ve been to Moab, Fruita, Hurricane, Downiville, Asheville, or not, but they have in their collective minds examples from around the world where mountain bike tourism has made a positive impact on small communities. They come, they ride – then eat, drink and be merry, and then tell their friends. And so it goes.
Lima has the potential to be such a hip and obscure spot on the mountain biking radar. A great backcountry trail through a beautiful, protection worthy landscape combined with a gas station, comfortable motel, cafe, in town camping and a road house that lets you cook your own steak on a grill in the bar – what else could you want? No bs-ing - Lima wouldn’t ever see the kind of growth or usage that Fruita, CO has seen but this type of drive-by bicycle tourism is real, and with time, planning and promotion, possibly a needed life line to HELP keep Lima on the map. Problem is that the Little Sheep trail (and equally spectacular Italian Peaks to the north) are really the ONLY worthy established singletrack options in a 50 mile radius of town that would attract interested riders. The Beaverhead-Deerlodge Forest Plan recommended these areas for Wilderness consideration (Recommended Wilderness Area), and this past June closed these trails to bicycles under the Region One RWA ‘philosophy’ that manages RWAs as defacto-Wilderness. (I won’t go into how Garfield Mountain (Lima Peaks) Unit was added as a RWA after public NEPA comments had ended on the Forest Plan - and over the vocal objection of the Beaverhead Country Commission) Senator Tester’s FJRA embraced the BDNF Forest Plan and its Big ‘W’ fate is presently being debated in D.C.
For two years running in anticipation of the possible closure of these trails concerned bicyclists from around the region converged on Lima to ride the sublime and then give to the towns (Dell too) some economic development – mountain bike style. The second year, in 2009, the somewhat spontaneous Backcountry Bicycle Festival drew nearly 150 folks to ride, eat, drink, camp in town and dance the night away in Lima – and in the process gave the town one of the best economic weekends they’ve had in decades. Rest assured that this one weekend surge on the trails should not be extrapolated to the area being over run - no more impact than one string of pack animals – Lima is after all in the middle of no-where.
The community had their eyes opened to what could be a regular stream of people stopping by to enjoy a quiet spin into the woods on their bicycles and then sampling an authentic slice of rural Montana hospitality. It was truly an outstanding event because of the landscape, a narrow ribbon of a trail through it and a great supportive community. Lima’s businesses and residents were keen to develop a marketing plan to get the car-touring cyclists off the highway and through town on their way into the hills. It was heart breaking this year to have to decline their enthusiastic invitation to bring the Festival back because of the great (already non-motorized) trails had been closed to bicycles. What exactly are we protecting here?
If you have a moment – check out the photographic Festival recap:
http://bit.ly/cTEPYi
So George, or Geo, the question becomes could you support some bicycle access to such a landscape that would be permanently protected from all the evil threats to our public lands (except bicycles) by a companion designation or boundary adjustment and new proposed Wilderness to benefit a very deserving wildscape and community? There are examples all over the country of MOTORIZED corridors into (W)ilderenss - can you support a NON-MOTORIZED corridor or boundary adjustment? If you can’t see this as an appropriate, viable and legislatively permanent compromise, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY? What are we protecting with only a Wilderness designation that we can’t package more creatively and collaboratively for the benefit of all?
In the meantime maybe you can help throw a Wilderness Festival down in Lima to see who shows up to promote and protect these hallowed grounds. I’m sure a Wilderness burger at the Peat Bar will be a big hit…?
Oh, I forget, it already occurred:
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/boots_not_bikes_a_protest_for_wilderness/C41/L41/
As a related side note: At a fall 2009 meeting with supporters of Beaverhead-Deerlodge Partnership after Senator Tester’s FRJA introduction, cyclists were told by a representative from Trout Unlimited that they could not support bicycles in Little Sheep Creek drainage as it is an important cutthroat trout watershed. They said that the sedimentation cased by bicycles was too great a threat to the fish habitat. There was no mention of other users impacting the fish, trails and run off – just that bicycles were bad.
When bridges were suggested to deal with USERS crossing the creek and a volunteer effort to pro-actively mitigate water issues on the trail, we were met with a blank stare. So now bicycles are banned but there is no signage or attempt to educate the ACCEPTABLE users on how their impact affects the fishery? Tell me horses don’t stir up the creek? Ban bicycles and call it good? There is a great disconnect here between the Wilderness-or-nothing ideal and what really happens on the ground, and to surrounding communities.
What are we protecting with a Wilderness designation that can’t be accomplished another Congressionally sanctioned way?
Sadly the Lima Peaks looks to be a done deal and highlights the need to have the Region 1 FS look at the RWA issue on a trail-by-trail basis and not just a area wide bicycle ban. Another such opportunity sits at the opposite end of the Centennial Valley in the Henry Mountains outside of West Yellowstone. A world class made for bicycles trail sits in a RWA where it has been legal to ride a bicycle on the NON-MOTORIZED trails forever. Protect it? Absolutely! From bicycles? No Way!
There is a better way to manage bicycles on public lands.
Funny you mention Lima Peaks. It's one of my favorite places in Montana. I first climbed Mt. Garfield in the early 1970s and have been visiting the area a lot over the years--as recently as two years ago. I've hiked over most of that roadless area at one time or another (as well the other mentioned area Italian Peaks to the west).
In order to respond honestly to your question about whether I could support a boundary adjustment at Lima Peaks or any other place, I would have to see on a map exactly what is proposed, and how much I think that might affect the integrity of the whole.
Boundary adjustments and/or non-motorized corridors in some instances may be a viable alternative. There are, as others have noted in this commentary--cherry stemmed roads in many wilderness areas--the Boulder Canyon Road in the AB wilderness for example goes some 20-25 miles south into the heart of the AB Wilderness. I wish that road were not there, but it pre existed the wilderness, and as you may know has a lot of summer cabins and church camps along it, as well as campgrounds.
And of course, there is the road that penetrates the Rattlesnake NRA by Missoula up the drainage quite a ways that is open to mountain bikes as you probably know.
I recognize that the Boulder is not analogous to the Lima Peaks situation because that road is open to all vehicles, but my point is that sometimes corridors or cherry stemmed access is acceptable if there is a significant amount of protection given to the whole.
But every one of those are going to be specific decisions specific to each particular place.
"When I see you and others working to protect wilderness without trying to make it a place to mountain bike, you will all be a welcome addition to the wilderness movement."
We support Wilderness where appropriate. Absolutely. But the continued marginalization of historic bicycle access can't continue. I'm fine with some trails being off-limits to cyclists...as long as we're evaluating each on merit rather than subjecting it to some mindless blanket ban because "that's the way we've always done it so it must be right".
I'm for Wilderness. Absolutely in some cases. But where its designation eliminates current access I feel that it's important to look for alternate means to protect and preserve. Or at least to evaluate true impact rather than perceived (read: biased).
Your 'point is that sometimes corridors or cherry stemmed access is acceptable if there is a significant amount of protection given to the whole.
But every one of those are going to be specific decisions specific to each particular place.'
In a nutshell this is what bicyclists are asking for in the areas we now ride that deserve some bicycle consideration AND permanent protection.
The Widerness and defacto-Wilderness blanket bicycle bans without specific and detailed discussions about options, trail alignments and boundaries is a huge but simple issue for bicyclists.
Bring us to the table as partners in conserving an area's environmental and economic health - you just might be surprised at what we have in common.
With access does come responsibility from the quiet, human powered bicyclists to all the stakeholders and the wildscape. Bicyclists will have to prove their conservation chops in this process.
Education, good will and the ability to share among the stakeholders will take us far.
With this approach mtn. bikers won't be losing any historic trail access due to the wilderness act in the past, present or future. The amount of public trails closed to mtn. bikers due to wilderness designation would be quite miniscule, especially compared to the amount of non-wildernesspublic land that has mtn bike access and could be pursued for future trails as well.
Hopefully this balanced approach would motivate the entire mtn. bike community to become wilderness advocates.
I honestly can't think of a fairer solution.
That proposal is frankly a non starter. You're simply trying to figure out how little you can give up to get MTBers to support Wilderness. This does not address the fact that we're kicked off 53 million acres in the lower 48 for no good reason.
I don't see how tenable it would be anyway to say: bicycles are allowed in new wilderness but not old one. I'm pretty sure that we can document how somebody has ridden pre 1984 in just about every existing wilderness area.
Mind you, I don't think that bicycles should and will be allowed on every single trail out there, but we need to start with a position that bicycles are legal in wilderness and then look at the situation on the ground for each trail to see what makes sense.
the wilderness act dates back to 1964 not 1984. That is before mtn bikes were invented. For example the Cabinet Wilderness in MT was part of the first wilderness designated in 1964, and therefore had no mtn bike use prior to wilderness designation.
You seem to solely focus gaining access to wilderness areas rather than finding a fair, logical compromise. If I were trying "to find out how little wilderness I could give up to gain mtn bikers support" as you claim would I not assume the position of George Weuthner and others who say flat out "no mtn bikes in wilderness areas"
my name is George Sprauge, I am not "geo"
you have some interesting, yet pesimisitic view points.
I'm a wilderness advocate and I thought of, and would support such a change if I knew it would truly motivate the mtn biking community behind wilderness areas. I honestly believe it's a fair, logical compromise.
The politics of this confuses me, but for as long as the Republicans maintain control of the House, which could be the next 20 years, I doubt there's going to be much more wilderness unless some compromises are made.
Here's what I think might work: convene a conference of advocates who are authorized to set policy for major wilderness organizations, professional mountain bike advocates (meaning IMBA), and high-level Forest Service staff. See if something can be hashed out. Maybe REI, Patagonia, Columbia, Specialized, and similar companies would be willing to sponsor it.
I just find that incredibly...ridiculous.
It doesn't mean bikes everywhere. It doesn't mean your hike or Wilderness experience irreparably damaged (unless YOU let it be...and let's be honest, if a cyclist ruins your hike the problem may just be with YOU and not the cyclist.) It also doesn't mean wholesale destruction of wild places...and to suggest it does is self-serving fearmongering. Go that way and risk losing the respect of everyone on this side of the issue.
Finding a workable compromise means that in the face of an unfriendly body politic we could all work together to impose our collective will upon our ELECTED officials. But the time for the "Our way or no way, Wilderness or NOTHING" ethos has passed. It's a dinosaur. And our ENTIRE body (with the notable exception of Finn) will bang the companion designation drum until we stop eliminating mountain bike access for lands of sub-par Wilderness quality where mountain bikes have enjoyed historical access.
Say the word and we'll be on your side. I think by now you know the terms of the truce. And if you don't we'd be happy to run them by you again.
Cyclists rode in most wilderness areas in the late 70s and early 80s until the reinterpretation of the Act by the Feds in 1984, hence the 1984.
I honestly really don't see what's fair in your compromise. It's basically: stay off the existing 53m acres, and we'll get to keep access to the next 3m. While it might work in the short term, it won't resolve the main issue. The banning of bicycles in wilderness is not justified logically, and these kinds of discussions will keep coming up until cyclists get their rightful access to wilderness.
I'm advocating for bikes in any wilderness areas prior to wilderness designation.
No where do I state stay off the exisiting 53 million acres, and get access to the next 3million?.
I tried all you've done zebulon is proove others accusations that all you care about is gaining access to wilderness areas and doing your own "reintepretation" of the wilderness act. How is that proposal fair to wilderness advocates? Where is the logic in allowing bikes in wilderness areas where they have never been present?
It's very hard to feel any compassion for your opinion when your so unwilling to compromise. Mtn bikes are never going to be allowed in ANY wilderness with your attitude trust me.
I understand your proposal, which is why I don't agree with it. Limiting access to wilderness that had cycling preexisting its designation will de facto cut off access to anything that was designated pre late 1970s. At any rate, that grand fathering concept is non sensical at best and will never see the light of day. Usage should be based on something a bit more logical than whether usage was a fait accompli by some user group.
With all due respect, your reasoning puzzles me. How would it be fair to wilderness advocates if we allowed bikes where they never rode before? What is that supposed to mean? We are talking about public land here, not wilderness advocates' private playground. Frankly, it's just one more example of the real crux of the issue. Wilderness "advocates" just don't want to share.
As for reinterpreting the Act, the Feds did it in 1984 in case you forgot.
You might not like my attitude, but I'm not interested in compromises that don't achieve access parity. If you really cared about Wilderness, you'd grant us meaningful access, and we'd be your best ally, but somehow, you seem to have a hard time getting past that sharing concept. :)
With the Republicans in control, one would think that you'd be looking for new allys.
you refuse to answer any of my questions nor do you undertsnad my proposal. no where do I say allow bikes where they've never rode before that is your perception. You claim there was mtn bike use everywhere pre- 1964 wilderness act which is not true.
I am proposing to add bikes in wilderness that had use before wildernes deisgnation such as the maroon bells/snowmass wilderness in CO which went in 1984.
Zebulon your proposal is to allow bikes into all wilderness areas. How is that fair? If you really cared about wilderness you would be ok with not being ableto ride your bike in areas whre it never occured. I find you to be most unreasinable and stubborn. You offer no counter proposal and I have seen your comments on other threads trashing the wilderness act and bragging about riding in wilderness areas.
Bravo George W. for acknowledging the point Bob Allen made a few posts above. That recognition is pretty pivotal for some of us following this thread.
You wisely recommend specific conversations about specific wildscapes.
The following is a link to the testimony that was presented at Senator Tester's FJRA last December by IMBA and is recommended reading for anyone following this thread. This document was generated through a collaboration of Montana bicyclists with IMBA through much on the ground research, thought AND outreach to the conservation community ( that was mostly resisted and dismissed ) and then the Senator's staff.
If you have not had an opportunity to read it, please take a moment to do so. Please note the specific adjustment requests at the end of the document - this represents what the cycling community believes are straightforward, concise and reasonable requests that balances limited bicycle access with support for new Wilderness - more than 90 percent of the Wilderness acreage proposed is supported with most of the remaining balance protected with a companion designation.
http://bit.ly/i2uMNF
If FJRA doesn't get passed in the next few days, we will have the opportunity to continue this discussion again in earnest very soon...
Which question would you like me to specifically answer?
I don't claim that Wilderness areas were ridden pre 1964, although there is a remote possibility that somebody did it at some point, but I claimed that quite a few wilderness areas were ridden pre 1984, when the Fed reinterpreted the Act.
Allowing bikes in all wilderness areas (but not on all trails) is fundamentally fair. It's a quiet human powered means of transportation that has the same impact as hiking and way less than horse riding. Again, your proposal basically says: "we were here first, so too bad for you". This is fundamentally unfair, at least on taxpayer funded land, and I just can't get past that basic element of discrimination against cyclists.
Here is another twist on your proposal: many areas are currently off limits to cyclists because they're managed as wilderness eventhough they're not wilderness areas yet. So your proposal would be a self fulfilling prophecy. Bikes were not ridden there because they could be wilderness, so bikes won't be allowed there when they become wilderness. Bottom line, cyclists would remain excluded.
Frankly, I don't know what you're afraid of. What would happen in reality, if wilderness was open to cyclists, is that encounters would be fairly limited as cyclists would fan out through the trails and would go in the backcountry where few actually go. A lot of trails would not even be used by cyclists as they're not rideable (on a bike).
Bottom line, I want to support wilderness but only when it'll be fair to cyclists.
And now, let us pray . . . . Oh great God of Wilderness, let not the human infestation overrun thy pristine precincts. Let thy greatness be shown as it was before the arrival of the great plague of humankind, lo these many centuries ago.
:-)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/7544416/Roman-Catholic-penitents-flagellate-themselves-and-re-enact-the-crucifixion-at-Easter-in-the-Philippines.html?image=19
Let's all meet up somewhere and do this to throw back the mountain bikers' arrogance in their faces! :-)
Ravalli County 1,538,000 acres.
Bitterroot NF 1,587,000 acres. 1,110,000 acres in Ravalli County
Current wilderness 743,000 acres.
Recommended Wilderness by FS 76,800.
Of this IMBA and local bike community supports Wilderness designation for 45,000 acres and support of other designations for the rest.
Under NREPA an additional 329,000 acres would be designated Wilderness.
If NREPA was approved 73% of the Bitterroot NF would be wilderness. Now maybe we should be happy to ride on the remaining 27% except for the fact that that remaining 27% is nearly devoid of trails or is other wise blocked by private land for access.
I fully support George' s need for spiritual rejuvenation. It would seem like that should be possible in the existing 800,000 acres of designated and proposed wilderness that mountain bikers support.
The biggest area of contention, Blue Joint adjoins the 1.3 million acres in the Bitterroot-Selway and the 2.3 million acre Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness. Addition of the this to the adjoining wilderness will not appreciably change any of the characteristics of this area, but it would a major loss to mountain bikers as one of the few spots in the vast wilderness that we can ride.
It is nice that George supports by ability to ride in an area 6 hours from my house. However when you get down to the specifics for certain locales the arguments as to why every roadless area needs to be free of mountain bikes seems less realistic.
As soon as the Forest Service enacted a rule against bicycles specifically (along with hang-gliders, and isn't that weird?), this never-ending debate began.
Frankly, I wouldn't care if I saw a Segway in a wilderness area as long as the area isn't overrun by Segways. It's motorized, meaning it's categorically banned by Congress, but it's quiet and I'm sure its environmental and social impact is about 5% as great as that of two horses and two mules or whatever is used in packstock these days. I'd much rather encounter three people on Segways than three people swilling beer atop pooping trail-ripping fly-attracting steam-disturbing giant mammals with brains the size of a walnut that weigh half a ton or more.
Sorry if my last couple of comments were rather over the top, but when I read silly posts about walk in wilderness if you're man enough, I feel like responding with something equally ludicrous.
I'm just saying, what are we trying to preserve in wilderness regions? Is it quiet and environmental harmony, or is it the hoof and the Vibram sole while excluding a tire tread? Picking and choosing the way the government has done not only is unfair when you look at what's allowed in wilderness and what isn't, but it seems counterproductive too, because we're having this argument.
BTW, the San Francisco newspaper had a big story this weekend on a luxury dude ranch trip near the Grand Tetons, with tenderfeet (if that's the right word) mostly on tame horses. I thought it was gross--the mean-sounding guide was making fun of the guests and the guests were stuffing themselves on one fancy meal after another. There's even an employee to take off the guests' boots at night! I bet these trips go right into the local wilderness areas if there are any. The article said they go into the national park there. But no bikes! I wish the story had said how much this trip costs. I bet thousands. Here's the story:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/12/10/TRT71FPNEA.DTL
But don't despare you will have plenty of opportunities to argue the merits of mountain biking in Wilderness when the Senate gets around to re-hearing the bill in about 2013. :)
In the mean time you can continue to hone your arguments about Wilderness and Mountain Biking.
By the way how do you all feel about Segways in Wilderness?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
But the question is academic, because the Wilderness Act of 1964 prohibits any recreational use of "motorized equipment." (16 U.S.C. § 1133(c).) There is an exception for wheelchairs in another law, 42 U.S.C. § 12207. As I read the statute, motorized wheelchairs are allowed.
As other regional forests go through their Forest Planning process, the Region One stance will continue to close historically and economically important bicycle trails regardless of any ongoing or stalled Wilderness legislation highlighting the need for a trail-by-trail analysis rather than broad area-wide bicycle banning defacto-Wilderness.
There is a better way to manage bicycles on our public lands!
Poor, pathetic, victimized mountain bikers...I would have cut n pasted the poor fellow who claims his earthly essence is derived from his beloved mountain bike, but the more I read through the mountain biker posts, the more I threw up in my mouth.
It's interesting that the cyber-stalking creep Dave Skinner, brought up the word "selfish." Those of us who oppose bikes in wilderness are selfish. Mountain bikers who insist on using their consumer products wherever they want are enlightened, progressive, open-minded folks who do more to protect wilderness than anyone else. And they are discriminated against. They are excluded. They are banned. They are hated and reviled. Interesting use of language by small-minded consumers who who think their form of recreation is covered under the Bill of Rights and the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
Selfish people want the wilderness for their own use. Generous people want wilderness for its own sake.
Please don't choke on your own vomit.
Frankly, I could not care less whether you think that your motives are purer than mine. What matters is that if you really care about preserving land, you would be better served if you allowed us in. We've already established that cyclists will keep on resisting new wilderness designation until the ban is lifted, so it's in your own interest to make your allies. Being the great pure defender of Wilderness, you should have no problem letting cyclists in to further your higher goals.
If you have to resort to insults, you must be running out of arguments. I guess you're not feeling generous enough to share "your" wilderness with cyclists.
"Selfish capitalist". The1960s called, they want you back. :)
Anyway, please let us know when you're willing to share. With Christmas around the corner, one never knows.
As I'm sure you know, but others may not, the Act prohibits every motorized conveyance (16 U.S.C. § 1133(c)) and every "structure or installation" (ibid.) that a nonmotorized conveyance that's heavier than a bicycle might need. The Act is quite bulletproof in those respects. There is no cause for alarm." -Ted Stroll's response to the Author's claim that allowing mountain bikers into Wilderness would be the 'camel's nose under the tent', much like your 'chisel' argument. The Act is SOLID in regards to motorized use or other "serious threats to future and existing Wilderness" like development, logging, drilling, etc. Again, you have no cause for alarm, "it's pretty fucking simple".
Keep on posting Mass. It's doing wonders for our side of the argument.
"NewWest encourages robust and lively, but civil participation from our readers. By posting here, you agree to the NewWest terms of service. You agree to keep your comments on topic, respectful and FREE OF GRATUITOUS PROFANITY. Contributions that engage in PERSONAL ATTACKS, racism, SEXISM, bigotry, HATRED or are otherwise patently offensive will be SUBJECT TO REMOVAL."
Please remove Masswasting's posts.
Disengagement is recommended.
Anyway, this discussion has run its course. Mountain bikers once more have proven to be the reasonable bunch. We've explained in great detail why the current regulations are unfair and unreasonable, and nobody has been able to prove us wrong.
Happy holidays to all (especially Mass who seems pretty angry and definitely needs some holiday cheers).
I would only add that I don't expect the posts here to change anyone's mind. I've read before that when people have entrenched views on a topic, marshaling facts that contradict their viewpoint only causes them to adhere to their position even more strongly. A recent blog reminded me of this psychological reality:
http://www.pointofinquiry.org/why_facts_fail_brendan_nyhan/
There are exceptions, of course. A minority of people are truly open-minded. In addition, judges and lawyers particularly are paid to weigh the merits of arguments and the better among them constantly sift and reevaluate the logic not only of others' views but their own, doing so as objectively as they can and without taking things personally.
I'm confident that the Forest Service and similar agencies will sooner or later allow all human-powered travel in Wilderness areas, the Pacific Crest Trail, and national parks. The people who need to be convinced to implement the change are the agency staffs. With time, those staffs will have in their higher ranks more and more avid mountain bikers, Ktrak users (search Google for that), Monowalker owners, and so forth. The people who controlled policy before their age cohort started mountain biking and the like will be retiring. It's just a matter of time, and everyone, including Wilderness advocates, will benefit from the change.
For the record, I appreciate and consider bikers good people with solid values who leave other people alone. Anyone who has the ambition to ride a bike many miles over difficult terrain has my respect. Merry Christmas, Bikers!
every time you post your self victimizing nonsense I want to vomit.
Much has been accomplished in the past few years by organizations such as IMBA in educating the public, elected officials and land managers that bicyclists do have an invested history of riding on, valuing and maintaining trails in an area, that there are other solutions for protecting public lands besides the Big W alone and that bicyclists are a huge conservation constituency that wants worthy wildscapes protected.
Whenever public input is requested for future land management decisions, cyclists need to be that table from the beginning of the process to provide SOLUTIONS to perceived and real issues on the ground. No budget for trail work? Organize and empower volunteer trail workdays. Real or potential user conflict on a trail? Promote trail redesign, trail sharing and education to manage speed, line of sight blind spots and trail sustainability issues. Conservation issues? Heck ya bicyclists can support conservation.
Gone are the days where it is excusable for bicyclists come to the party late and then whine ‘what about us’ when CONTINUED trail access is discussed. We need to stay ahead of the curve by establishing trust and working relationships with our local land managers AND providing SOLUTIONS to the agencies whose budgets and employees are already stretched to the limit. The bicycling community is uniquely positioned to be at the forefront of conservation, recreation and the related economics of riding bicycles in the (w)oods.
If boundary bumps, corridors or companion designations are considered and implemented up front; the whole bikes-n-Wilderness becomes a moot point for that specific piece of ground. Bicyclists can and do support new Wilderness.
The COLLECTIVE APATHY from bicyclists nation-wide AND the bicycle industry has been our greatest weakness in recent land management legislation and National Forest management decisions. Don’t count on others to carry your load. Get involved today – and stay involved – it’s the duty of the citizen cyclist…
Merry Christmas to all! May it be a better 2011...
Those ads, in the minds of mountain bike skeptics, put us on a footing with giant pickup trucks, for which car manufacturers also offer up a bevy of land-trampling advertising.
On self-victimization: to the contrary, I consider myself extremely lucky to be as injury-free and riding-capable as I am in the midst of middle age. I count my blessings every day.
Your last comment about advertising is right on target. As someone who is skeptical of mountain biking motives, such ads only confirm what I perceive to be nothing more than a non-motorized thrillcraft. The iconology and message is exactly the same as ads for dirt bikes, and so forth. And it is that kind of behavior and attitude that I believe is inappropriate in wilderness areas, national parks, or any other landscapes we have designated as "special." It may be appropriate for a Nascar stadium but not something I want to promote on public lands.
So yes this advertising is self defeating for your cause.
Exactly so, and it's hard to get people who are skeptical to begin with to set aside the further doubt that these ads engender. It is asking a lot of any human being to do that.
The scope of this problem became fully apparent to me this summer when I mentioned to a lawyer, whom I would characterize as a mountain bike skeptic re Wilderness travel, that the ads don't reflect what mountain bikers do. He picked up on this and let on that the ads have influenced his perceptions. I detected that the influence had been significant, and of course negative.
Bicycle and bicycle component manufacturers, please take note.
I think that I would happily allow mountain biking on Public Land Wilderness in exchange for the right to shoot them as they trespass on private land in some short cut from public land to a public road. The destruction of public land is a public issue. The destruction of private land, what with all the congressional mandates about clean water, and gun point enforcement of point source pollution, which a renegade mountain bike path is, in fact, needs an equal right granted to the private land owner to defend, at the point of a gun, the right NOT to suffer mountain bike trespassers and the attendant damage. The trespass entitlement mentality needs to end.
It sure makes a striking difference when pro-mtn-bikes-in-wilderness comments shift from claims of discrimination or " not sharing" or strategies to undermine land managers (or waiting for them to retire or die) or self-victimization, to ideas about solutions, responsibility, holding the mtn bike industry accountable, and dealing with troubles about collective apathy.
Stock users (and many, many hikers & backpackers) suffered the same debilitating mindsets as many mtn bikers do by resisting Leave No Trace/Minimum impact philosophies and restrictions. Commercial stock outfitters in place like Yellowstone and many USFS districts are now on the cutting edge of reducing impacts in wilderness areas and take great pride in doing so. Many Backcountry Horsemen groups have evolved along the same lines and are actively trying to encourage private stock users to behave better in the woods.
Backpacking companies have also embraced minimum impact philosophies and technologies from encourages no fires to getting rid of obnoxious day-glo gear colors.
And everyone is becoming more thoughtful about shit--from both horses and people.
These are just a few examples about how attitudes can change (though no one--bikers, hikers, stockpeople--seems to care much about the impacts on the people who make the products they use as well as the impacts on the environment where those products are made...)
If mtn bikers resent being lumped in with ORVers and 'bilers then they ought stop using the same kind of language that the motorized folks and "wise"-users use. You know the reaction you'll get from people like me (and it ain't just me...).
When folks think in terms of being part of the solution, then there really are no victims, no one is really discriminated against, and maybe, just maybe, folks realize that wilderness is not only about them and their experience in it. And then things change.
I've spent more than 25 years getting paid to be in the woods: stock outfitting/packing mules & horses; guiding hunters, fishers, and hikers; many years instructing leave-no-trace ethics; and 12-plus years as backcountry trail crew. And I've spent more than 35 years personally enjoying being in wilderness areas. I do know a few things for certain: no one is kept out of wilderness--only people who don't want to fit the parameters of use; once you are in the woods, you are not a victim--you are a responsible adult with certain duties and obligations; and, finally, every single individual who goes into a wilderness area makes an impact--studies about use don't mean a damn thing when it comes to the attitude and actions of any given individual.
Funny how when a sense of humility and responsibility appeared on this thread, my foul, nasty, mean-spirited, Grinchiness dissipated...that said, I wouldn't plan on any apologies from me...
No matter what:
Happy Fucking Christmas, Mountain Bikers!
thx for putting these self victimizing, anti-wilderness bikers in their place.
GW's comment could just as easily be used against the anti-mountain biker crowd in this thread.
link here:
http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/mountain_biking_and_wilderness_not_convinced/C587/L564/