LET'S HAVE AN APOLOGY
What Tester’s Outburst Tells Us
Mean-spirited, personal attack at congressional hearing completely out of line, especially coming from a member of the U.S. Senate.By Bill Schneider, 12-30-09
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| Senator Jon Tester. | |
Fortunately, for Senator Jon Tester (D-MT), not many people watched the video feed from the Public Lands and Forests Subcommittee’s hearing on his Forest Jobs and Recreation Act, S. 1470, held December 17.
All testimony was excellent and expertly presented, as were most questions from subcommittee members, but not Senator Tester’s embarrassing and misinformed personal attack on a witness who dared say something he didn’t want to hear.
More significantly, this outburst serves as a “tell” as what’s really happening behind the scenes of efforts to end Montana’s Wilderness Drought.
When Senator Tester’s turn to ask questions came around, he wasted no time in assailing Matthew Koehler who had testified at the hearing representing the views of a broad new alliance of 54 small conservation groups called the Last Best Place Wildlands Campaign (LBPWC) and who had submitted a detailed, line-by-line analysis of S. 1470 along with many suggested changes to make the bill more palatable to the group.
You can click here to see a video of the entire hearing for yourself (go to the last few minutes for the Q&A section), but here’s a summation.
Right out of the chute the Senator said, quietly and mainly to the subcommittee members, “Isn’t it funny how the far left and the far right often connect up.” Followed by laughter.
Translation: Koehler represents a fringe element, so don’t pay attention to what he said. Even if this is true, is it appropriate for a U.S. Senator to joke about it and belittle and ridicule constituents before a congressional hearing?
Next, he asked when the LBPWC was formed, and Koehler told him mid-July after S. 1470 was introduced.
Translation: The group hasn’t been around long, so it has little standing and not much chance of knowing anything important, but ignoring the fact that the campaign is a merely a recent combine of many groups that have been working on forest issues for twenty years or more.
Then Tester asked, “I think the first time we’ve met is here today, correct?”
Koehler said, politely, no, he had come to Washington, D.C. and met personally with the Senator soon after he was elected.
Instead of apologizing about forgetting about that meeting, Tester dismissed the response and asked, “You have gotten a hold of our website? Is that correct? You’ve sent us emails? The reason I ask is that I review all the emails and I haven’t seen one.”
In his reply, Koehler tried to explain to the Senator that what he personally did or didn’t do wasn’t important compared to the issue at hand. He also reminded Tester that he was testifying on behalf of many volunteer organizations, not as an individual constituent, and he and his partners had sent emails and met with members of Tester’s staff, but without much success. “To be honest,” he replied, “there was a time when members of your staff weren’t returning our emails and weren’t returning our phone calls.”
“That’s because we didn’t receive any,” Tester rudely interrupted, “because I looked at all the emails and your name wasn’t on them.”
Montana’s junior Senator then launched into an old-fashioned scolding, reminding Koehler how privileged he was to even be on this “distinguished panel” of witnesses, and finally, more or less told the subcommittee Koehler was lying. “Don’t make the claim that is unfounded,” Tester said, “because I tend to stick up for my staff on such issues.”
No, he did not extend Koehler the courtesy of responding to the lecture. Instead, he moved onto likely pre-arranged, softball questions for witnesses who supported his bill.
There’s a lot of issues here, but the key point I want to get out is that, to be kind, there’s obviously a disconnect between the Senator and his staff. I hope it isn’t intentional because his staffers know as well as their own names that Koehler and several of the groups he represents have made many attempts to be part of any congressional efforts to end Montana’s Wilderness Drought including this bill and virtually every other wilderness and forest management issue, but have more or less been snubbed and written off as the “far left.”
I’ll take the Senator’s word for it when he says he reads all the emails sent in on the “contact” form on his senatorial website, but I doubt many in Koehler’s group used that form in lieu of sending longer, detailed emails directly to the Senator and his staff. The Senator’s staff obviously received these emails, but Tester obviously didn’t read them.
I happen to have copies of several of these emails, and they aren’t short snipes (I hate this bill, etc.). They’re thorough, professional and constructive. If I had space, I’d print some of them, but that would be even more embarrassing to the Senator. In retrospect, I most ask, why does it matter if Koehler sent an email? He was there at the hearing testifying on behalf of many Montanans and deserves the respect all other witnesses received.
I contacted Koehler after the hearing, and he told me that members of the LBPWC have had “five face-to-face meetings” with Tester’s staff and called and emailed “four or five dozen times” during the past few months. Many of these calls and emails have gone without replies and the meetings haven’t generated any agreement to change anything in the bill. Yet, Tester stands up at a congressional hearing and claims he hasn’t heard about any of this?
The truth is, Tester’s staff isn’t interested in listening to “non-supportive” constituents, more or less considering them bugs on the windshield. And, it seems, they keep the Senator in the dark about attempts by anybody except true-blue followers to affect change in this legislation and end up allowing their boss to embarrass himself at a congressional hearing. You have to wonder if his staff wrote the questions Tester asked at the hearing and demonized Koehler and the LBPWC in advance.
Now, for a little disclosure. For those who haven’t been following my frequent postings on Montana’s Wilderness Drought and Tester’s efforts to end it. I have, somewhat reluctantly and with amendments, supported S. 1470, to the chagrin of Koehler and other members of the LBPWC. But I certainly haven’t supported how the bill came to be or the uncompromising attitude of those who wrote it. Unlike Senator Tester, I’ve never met Koehler, but we’ve talked on the phone a couple of times, and we disagree on many issues, including S. 1470. I’m writing this commentary because I don’t think any constituent, in this case one representing a large slice of Tester’s constituency, 95 percent of whom probably voted for him, should be personally berated at a congressional hearing. I’d say the same thing if he’d publicly flogged an agency official or timber mill owner.
At the hearing, Tester implied that he’d invited Koehler to testify, but Tester is not a member of this subcommittee and the subcommittee’s staff put the “distinguished panel” together. Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR), chair of the subcommittee, sent the letters of invitation.
One more “tell.” Tester is obviously sensitive about claims that the drafting of the bill wasn’t an open process, an issue Koehler mentioned, again, in his testimony. Keep in mind that when Montana narrowly elected Tester in 2006, a strong “open government” promise was a cornerstone of his campaign. I’ve already covered this issue ad nauseam, but the fact still is, the process of crafting the bulk of this key legislation was a closed, backroom, political deal among a few major green group leaders and timber reps. Since then, there has been extreme reluctance to change anything. Tester’s inappropriate behavior at the hearing tells me he’s edgy about how this deal was done, as he should be.
He’s probably embarrassed about his behavior at the hearing, too, and his staff knows it, which might be why they only pulled out the supportive testimony to put on YouTube.com instead of posting the entire tape of the hearing, conveniently omitting the forgettable Q&A section, as well as perhaps the key part of the hearing where Undersecretary of Agriculture Harris Sherman, the main spokesman for the Obama administration on national forest issues, strongly objected to several sections of the bill. (Click here for his testimony.)
Anyway, what’s done is done, but to salvage something from this embarrassing episode, it seems appropriate for Senator Tester, on behalf of all Montanans, to send Matthew Koehler a letter of apology and release it to the press.
And, of course, if this hasn’t happened already, have a little chat with staffers about how this happened and how it can be prevented going forward.
Footnote: Not that we need more evidence of Tester’s staff snubbing “non-supportive” people like Matthew Koehler, but I just checked out the Senator’s Facebook page, where his staff has put up a series of photos from the hearing, including shots all witnesses except one, and you guessed it. It must have been a lot of work to carefully crop Koehler out of every one of them. Petty, eh?
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Comments
One can only guess that Tester was completely unprepared for the articulate and well-informed comments in opposition to the bill submitted by the new Undersecretary of Agriculture; the pointed questions put forth by the Chair of the Committee, Jeff Bingaman (D-NM); and the all-but-indecipherable remarks by the bill's co-sponsor, Max Baucus.
Bottom line is Tester didn't help the cause of S-1470, which in my book is a good thing.
You show disrespect to ALL of us who are concerned about the environment and wilderness here in Montana. We used to call you Big Jon. Please don't make yourself look like little jon!
Your friend.
But no. It looks like the Senator had prepared this "gotcha" moment in advance, and kept at it even when it turned out not to be true. The whole thing makes Tester look petty. Even more so when we find out his staff selectively edited the video portion. Stay classy, dude.
RH
Probably time for Steve Kelly to run again.
I watched the hearing and was as surprised as the other commenters on this thread. Sen. Testy didn't ask Matthew a single relevant question about the content of his comments, and only used his aggressive line of questioning to suggest that Matthew and company should have played a part earlier in the process. But he didn't even explicitly make that point. So really, he didn't make a single point, and wound up looking disgracefully like a bully and an asshole. I hope he had the opportunity to double-check his statement that his staff hadn't received a single email from the coalition that Matthew represented, and man-up with an apology.
The one possibly optimistic takeaway from Testy's Tantrum is that maybe he was genuinely frustrated not to have had the opportunity to consider this kind of input earlier on in the process. And if that's the case, then unfortunately he needs to stop blindly sticking up for his staff and look for a possible disconnect in the chain of communications.
RH
Also on NewWest today, a new report gives Montana's senators the highest scores for voting green -- and calls other lawmakers "natural disasters." Think Rehberg will be green or a "natural disaster".. don't think too hard about it.
http://www.newwest.net/city/article/whos_green_baucus_tester_get_top_eco_scores/C8/L8/
Jon's got my vote.
Michael Gregston
Accusing Koehler of lying (while ignoring any and all substantive issues raised)? When he's got his own facts crooked?
So much for any benefit of the doubt I might have given the Senator.
Alas, he's backed himself into a corner -- or got backed there by the band of folks who wrote the bill with his name on it -- and his ornery attitude at the hearing made him look like a cornered beast.
Even before that, 'though, he was cruising for controversy with language that left the bill's readers coming away with sharply discrepant impressions, including readers whose opinions I respect. For just two examples, Bill Schneider came away seeing little risk of roads spreading into the wild country, and Gary MacFarlane came away seeing plenty of just that kind of risk. Language like that is not good law.
That won't happen again. He has been a real disappointment.
OldArt just doesn't get it. Are we supposed to reward Tester for lying and not representing us by voting for him so he can screw us over again? Sorry but he has to earn my vote - I don't just give my vote away because he has D next to him name. I have come to the conclusion that we need term limits for all. It is the only way to break the hold the Ds & Rs have on our government. Vote them all out and start over.
if there is smoke, there must be fire. what is the threat that matthew represents to a sitting united states senator's bill to warrant this unseemly spectacle. i think a famous senator from oregon named wayne morse
http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~uofla/Summer00/Prince.html
who had courage of conviction once castigated another senator for berating a citizen at a hearing.
" it takes courage to attack another senator, but only sheer cowardice to attack one of your constituents."
where are our real leaders today? have they all died?
Good luck Jon, and your lame minions who answer my emails with form letters on other topics. You got my last vote and dollar in your first election. I don't like what you've done. You rode in on an old John Deere and traded it quickly for your new Humvee.
As a good friend and long-time environmental leader often says "would you rather be screwed by your 'friends' or your enemies?" I'm sick and tired of getting it from someone I voted for.
And save us all the cost of stamps and take me off your Christmas card list and further pleas for funding. Your arrogant effrontery in the hearing clinched it for me.
OK, who is that good friend? Because this is so spot-on and I want to use proper attribution when I use it.
I was prepared to be disappointed by Obama because I never had any illusions but after meeting him many times, with Senator Tester I really thought that I finally had a chance of really having someone in the halls of power who actually represented me.
The realization that hope was completely without basis has been incredibly disillusioning for me. And it has thrown my comittment to political activism into the wind... I had the honor of canvassing upper Grant Creek on election day 2006... traipsing through the rain for hours to help that one extra voter get to the polls... and for what? Does Senator Tester have any idea why I did that?
I mean, I am a cynic. I was actually a cynic long before I became involved in electoral politics. But somehow I convinced myself that the reality of politics in America meant that no matter how bad and false the choice was, we always had a choice between: a Republican, and, a Democrat.
There's no doubt which side of the aisle I want to sit.
But Senator Tester makes me just want to leave the room.
Mr. Tester did not take a very long time to bed down with wood products people..!
Nevertheless, Tester and other Democrats need to get it right with their base of voters. The Republicans always heed their base. Tester is a too typical Democrat. Instead, he should question the Republicans the way he did this man who clearly represented the views of many of the senator's supporters.
Sad as it is, you can't treat your base so badly even in the face of overwhelming menace.
Now regardless of what side you are on or where you stand within this perspective spectrum it is undeniable that Matthew Koehler is correct in his criticisms of some parts of this bill through the logic of basic economics and he deserved way more respect than he got from Tester. He is correct when he points out the fact that there is likely to be little demand for a lot of timber production any time within the foreseeable future. Especially the kind of timber that can be harvested on the marginally productive Beaverhead - Deerlodge continental climate habitat types that make up that particular forest. That’s part of why this bill is so flawed - the focus is on timber production and wilderness designation on the, B-D rather than the Kootenai where both Wilderness designation and timber production are more critical and feasible.
Does Tester not understand that the Kootenai is much more productive timber country by comparison - that 13 different conifer species grow there about twice as fast as the 5 species that grow on the B-D? From a timber production standpoint the wet relatively warm Cascadian flavored Kootenai has always been a lot more important than the high, dry B-D where a much less diverse forest of scraggly ass Lodgepole is the rule rather than the exception. The B-D s greatest private money generating potential lately has been that when it burns it usually offers up some of the best Morel mushroom picking in the world with literally millions of dollars worth popping up over any sizeable suitable habitat after a fire occurs. Thus it has become beyond the pale of lunacy that Forest Service officials there have lately BANNED! rather than encouraged commercial morel harvest. But that is another story within this whole larger tale of incompetence, misplaced focus and stupidity that I do not want to digress into trying to explain here.
The most valuable potential of the B-D today is recreation and wildlife habitat, yet the bulk of logging activity is inexplicably focused here? It is Lincoln, Mineral, Sanders and Flathead counties that have the most potential to be productive timber lands again, to a much larger degree than the B-D probably ever will. This also happens to be the region that is, in dire need of more, wilderness, especially protected habitat corridors that connect the greater Yaak –Cabinet –Selkirk ecosystems with their respective counterparts to the North so essential to saving the most threatened Grizzly and mountain caribou populations on the planet. That’s not to say that there should be no logging on the B-D ,if it could be profitable and some new wilderness would be valuable there also.
Of course no government officials are even willing to recognize the fact that the caribou are even present on the Kootenai, but believe it – they are. If they are going to have a fighting chance they need way more protected areas than the paltry amount of new wilderness in this bill - Roderick Mtn., Mt Henry, Pillick Ridge - West Cabinets - Scotchman Peaks and Northwest Peak would all be essential currently roadless areas that could make up such valuable habitat corridors.
So this bill needs way more wilderness designation on the Kootenai and perhaps less on the B-D and while were at it why not include the Lolo and Flathead? While new wilderness should be a key component to this bill, it is the JOBS that by and large really matter to a lot of people and rightly so.
That is the main reason why so many people are opposed to more wilderness. They are afraid that new wilderness designation will prevent profitable resource extraction and the solid well paying jobs they used to provide from occurring as well as restricted recreation opportunities. This makes sense to some degree since the tourism and recreation based jobs that wilderness can supposedly provide have by and large failed to materialize the way they were promised to, during the 90s, as resource extraction industries began to seriously decline. So we need to replace all of these lost logging jobs especially in the traditional Kootenai lumberjack zone.
Now I love both logging and wilderness and think they are both equally important – love the smell of both pristine air as well as fresh dust and love the feel and sound of a saw as well as bull trout and wapiti and big burly bad ass old –growth cedar trees like those found below Pillick ridge at Ross creek and most importantly think loggers are good people whose lives have been seriously messed up by circumstances beyond their control. That said, I think people like Matthew are correct that there just is not that much potential for a big spike in demand for traditional wood products any time soon. If that changes then we should have the leverage and flexibility to do some larger scale industrial logging again. Maybe by the time that happens we will actually have some bullpines transition in to yellows (loggerspeak for small ponderosa and large ponderosas)
So how do we put all these good folks and their currently rusting infrastructure machinery back to work in the woods if there is no demand for large scale logging? Well, by the grace of GOD in lots of ways! This is where the current bill is really missing the mark as well-it lacks new innovative, progressive promotion of the things that really are the wave of a better future-things like ECORESTORATION, URBAN INTERFACE BUT NOT WILDERNESS FUEL REDUCTION, ROAD MAINTENANCE AS WELL AS OBLITERATION, NOXIOUS WEED MGMT, WILDIFE FORAGE ENHANCEMENT, SPECIAL FOREST PRODUCT HARVEST as well as some and later maybe more than some LOGGING!!! A well balanced and organized mixed menu of all of these activities has the potential to put a LOT! Of people back to work in the woods, and from what I’ve seen, those of us who like to work in the woods don’t really care whether we are logging, cruising timber, picking mushrooms, planting trees, pruning boughs or picking cones for Christmas decorations, collecting seed for nurseries, harvesting yew parts for cancer medicine or sawing firewood-WE JUST WANT TO WORK IN THE WOODS !!! instead of Wal-Mart and be paid a decent wage to do so. But this ugly usage war that’s raged on now for decades has made it more and more difficult to do so - with the Forest Service so legally hamstrung by environmentalist lawsuits(this is why people get so mad at Matthew and Wild West –even though his organization is usually scientifically accurate in their criticisms) that they are afraid of being sued if some body farts the wrong direction in places like potential endangered species habitat (this season they started hassling people for pruning subalpine fir boughs calling it lynx habitat-utterly irrational, nonsensical stupidity like that is why they end up pleasing NOBODY and PISSING OFF EVERYBODY!). Even if you prune a subalpine fir bough – all it’s ever going to potentially do any where is ENHANCE the LYNX HABITAT!! as the tree grows back more biomass in a more healthy and vigorous manner than it would have, had it not been pruned.
All this kind of crap has to end and forest management has GOT!!!!! To change NOW!!!! That is why we need a bill that is much better than the current one. It’s a very basic step of a start in the right direction but it needs a LOT of modification, transformation, clarification and focus change to become the kind of legislative action that would catalyze the kind of cures necessary to resolve these issues to any worthwhile degree. WE need a bill that’s less of a stale pipe dream and more of a sound, progressive, balanced rationally derived steering strategy for the future - this one just isn’t quite there YET! 2010 has GOT to be the year that all of this rancidly stale conflict is resolved and progress begins!!!!!
The perplexing question is, how do we get from where we are today to a political process that can produce "sound, progressive, balanced rationally derived" strategies of any sort?
If our only input into the system is a choice between a poor candidate and a worse candidate every 2 or 6 years, we're pretty much screwed. For as many flaws as the Forest Service has shown over the years, managing just about anything by Congress seems even less likely to produce positive outcomes.
The next step of devolution--"managing" by Judiciary--is as much a symptom of failure as it is contributing cause.
Just thinking out loud. I don't have any good answers myself.
You know that it is a sin in politics to mention the name of one's opponent, or give them any publicity. Especially if you are of a certain Sovietish persuasion, da?
I enjoyed Johnny's rant for the most part. I agree, I love "both" in their time and place.
As I've said before, wilderness is appropriate in the context of the original intent and goals of the Act. We should set aside outstanding and unique stuff. I'm even willing to concede that the mid-70's cycle of review is about the most-credible criteria of whether or not designation is appropriate. If it was recommended in the first NFMA forest plans, then those area should be duly designated.
But in states with hard release, such as Washington and Wyoming, the process is supposed to be over and done.
And "roadless" is not holy. It was an administrative stunt directed at bypassing Congressional intent. It has pretty much failed so far, which is why the same money outfits that funded the roadless "campaign" switched gears to incrementalist packages such as S-1470.
Never mind that S-1470 is pathetic in terms of the needs of the larger, non-wilderness landscape. WUI management alone will not do the job. When a fire starts in the boonies and runs for miles, sure, it might "stop" in a WUI belt, but the losses (economic AND environmental) are real. The Brush Creek fire was a classic example inasmuch as it toasted all except maybe 120 acres of "old" big wood inside the perimeter. The real shocker is it was root kill, and the harvest units stayed mostly green. So all that big wood is lost as live habitat for those species...and trust me, the blackbacks have lots of other places to peck nearby.
So it is imperative, in my view, to manage fuels for fire across the landscape, not just in the WUI.
How many of you really, truly LIKE the gray dead stuff? AND the black dead stuff? Is that what you really want, or is this just some kind of hard-wired ideological thing about making sure nobody ever makes a single penny of profit?
as anyone who regularly hangs out at The Mint in Big Sandy can tell you....
So he was treated "rudely". I can only imagine how many times he's treated forest service rangers "rudely". Give me a break.
I find it amazing that Colorado, which is full of old hippie enviros, has completed or soon will complete NEPA analysis to salvage clearcut 60,000 acres of pine beetle infestation. This brings up a strange anomoly. Will it be, that only in areas where enviros are the majority can large scale logging occur?
Mathews been so "adversarial" for so long, why would he possibly be invited to a "compromise". Whats he willing to compromise on? If he's so willing to compromise let's see some hard numbers and not tired retoric. Who really has a closed mind?
The "radicals" fear these collaborations because it strips away the "moderate" enviros that once supported them. Sen. Mark Udall of Colorado, whose consistantly recieved a 100% rating from the league of conservation voters, has introduced a bill that would "expediate NEPA analysis". Read his bill. It states "a designation of "insect emergency areas" shall not be subject to the following laws: The National Environmental Policy Act of 1969. Thats it! Only one law.
Mathew and the radicals don't seem to realize that if they don't loosen up and allow these "healthy forest timber sales" to go through unopposed-that his own party will exempt them from any NEPA litigation. It's inevitable. Ironically the best chance of this will come from Democrats. Wouldn't it be much easier for a Democrat lawmaker, rather than a Republican, to persuade the Democrat from the east who are the only hope of the radicals to keep NEPA in place?
I'd like to see something more than that statement in support of your claim.
your a right wing crazy
and tester is a liar and crooked politician
way to go MT
kick him out and his BS bill.
go back to south dakota ya right wing crazy
Mel-
your also a right wing crazy
go have a party with tester
he might lie about where it is though
Roadless country is an economic asset. That's not all it is, of course, but it's an economic asset as much as any other natural asset is.
Roadless areas are, for example, the basis of jobs that can not be sustained where other forms of profit-taking prevail. And NREPA will guard that asset and those jobs far more meaningfully than Senator Tester's bill could even begin to approach.
Let's keep it straight. None of this is about some silly dichotomy of wilderness versus the economy or wilderness versus jobs. It is instead presents us with a crucial choice about the species of economy and jobs we most need to protect in the Northern Rockies.
And, as a further matter of simple fact, NREPA's more realistic stance on wilderness, in one key feature it most conspicuously shares with Tester's more meager effort, still leaves room for the logging industry and its jobs.
Like many others here, I've got no beef with logging. I've been caught on film doing some of it myself. But, hey, we all know that there can be too much of any good thing, and we've got no more reason to cheer the sprawl of logging deeper into woods that have already been hit than we do to cheer the sprawl of vacation homes and their inevitable No Trespassing signs.
And he's in a tough spot. He can read the polls. He knows that the public is rapidly souring on Democrats, as they continue to expand the reach of the federal government and spend money like drunken sailors. For example, in matchups with the GOP governors of their states, both Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota are now both 30 points behind, because voters have turned so negative on the health-care legislation, etc.
Many Americans feel Democrats should be focused strictly on improving the economy instead of messing around with health-care, cap-and trade and so on. Again, Tester can't help but be aware of this.
And that may be a key reason why he turned hostile on Koehler. He knows his top priority, to be reelected, has to be jobs, and jobs, and jobs. He might figure that at this point he has no choice but to push ahead with this bill so that he doesn't anger his friends on the left. But somehow his key task is going to be to persuade voters that it will not mean any more lost jobs for Montanans. That will be a tough sell with the closure of more mills, Smurfit-Stone, etc.
So maybe the Koehler incident was sort of a "Sister Souljah" moment aimed at showing voters that Tester is willing to fight radical environmentalists in order to protect jobs. Of course, Tester is going to have to do a lot more than that to convince voters that his bill will create jobs, IMHO.
I called the staties down in Missoula to find out about the last decade. Since 2000, there's been an annual average a bit under 300,000 acres a year of fire; and another annual average of about 300,000 acres of beetle mortality. So...kissing away 600,000 acres a year at present, and Matt's upset about management on 10,000 acres a year tops?
Kind of shows how pathetic the situation really is. If it was 600,000 acres a year of harvest, the usual suspects would be screaming it's UNSUSTAINABLE, UNSUSTAINABLE.
Like these kind of fire and bug stats are? One thing about if we were swatting down that many trees....at least the aftermath would be greening up nicely.
In a single post you manage to assert that: 1) you are in the small group of people who are actually noble and pure enough to "bring about change" while; 2) simultaneously lamenting that not even you and your noble philosophy can help the sorry & backwards timber workers who just cannot seem to understand the obviously superior principles of conservation biology and forest restoration.
If everyone would just realize how right you are then we could finally achieve some real change, protect some habitat, save some biodiversity and stuff. Maybe even put those sorry & backwards timber workers to work doing the work we want them to do.
I am also puzzled by the notion that "people who concoct legislation based on politics" are radicals? If that is so, then what you are actually advocating is for taking wilderness designation out the hands of legislators altogether. But since that is not how the wilderness act works, what you are actually advocating for is an entirely new method of designating wilderness that does not use the wilderness act's legislative process. That leaves me wondering what it is you are advocating for? I mean, I want a unicorn and free lifetime supply of lollipops, but that doesn't mean either are remotely possible.
Self-righteousness, condescension, and politics all seem like important considerations in passing wilderness legislation. And unfortunately, as Tester demonstrated, they are probably more relevant than conservation biology.
you have niethier a point nor do you make any sense. You just seem to want to have your time on the soap box yet you can't refute the knowledge Denise and Dang have presented. If you dont have anything real to contribute then SIT DOWN.
Let it burn and Skinner-
full of he usual lies and propoganda. Yeah it's greenies fault there are more beetles...idiots. MT does want more wilderness over 80% of MT was in favor of NREPA which is the state it was created in. Once again if you right wing crazies think testers bill is a victory for the wilderness movement in MT it demonstrates how delusional you whackos really are.
Its the right wing crazy way, I think you should remember Denise's point of about continually voting against your own interests.
the vast majority of MT forests have been logged at some point and will be logged again. This is where MT can get it's lumber not from Canada. Another economic lie perpetuated by the RWC's.
We dont need our last old growth forests to be logged when the vast majority of the forests have already been logged, and could be logged again to provide lumber for MT.
i'm not advocating an increase in logging however it's a fact that our society uses lumber and i'd rather have it come from previuosly harvested areas than old growth boreal in Canada and certainly not the little old growth we have left in the U.S. northern rockies.
If the New West comment section is anything, it is a soap box.
Of course it is most useful if it stimulates thought and discussion.
The point is that wilderness designation is inherently a political process and arguing that politics (i.e. compromise) should not be a part of the process fails to account for reality.
The other point is that NREPA supporters who tell everyone how "right" they are, based on the science (and I agree that they are "right" based on the science), while describing detractors as too dumb to understand, don't do NREPA any favors.
Koehler was well spoken and made good points and Tester was unprofessional. Voting against Tester in favor of a "Burns/Rehberg (R)" would have far reaching negative effects that go well beyond public lands policy.
I think we can do better than tester, rehberg and burns.
We should'nt accept bs out of fear of even worse bs.
If you want to talk about name calling then it's coming from all sides which unfortuately is the norm during public lands discussions. When you have let it burn (who does'nt even uderstand possesive apostrophes) logger, and skinner running their mouths with the same tired lies and prop. you have to stand up for the truth and the only these RWC's understand is by putting them in their place. I mean they actually believe the tester bill is a victory for wilderness advocates which demonstrates how opposed to any and all wilderness in MT. MT forests are only 3.5% wilderness, even if we protected all the roadless areas it would only equal 11% of the total forests in MT. That means 89% of the forests in MT would continue to be open to roads, timber and mining. If anyone wants it all and is not open to compromise it's the Right Wing Crazies.
As I said before, there's really nothing "sustainable" about 600,000 acres of forest dying every year. Whacking 10,000 acres per year on that landscape is explicitly insignificant. The amount of harvest, markets aside, should be much higher...and if the biomass market in fact develops, even on an avoided-cost basis (Fram commercial) then there is a use for the wood, a means of perhaps reducing the huge losses from landscape scale bug and megafire events.
For example, an entry into a basin that breaks fuels up leads to smaller-scale fire and bug events, the sort of events that Montana's forest products infrastructure could absorb easily. No, don't hit me with Andy Kerr's burn-victim garbage, entry right after a fire (such as what Indians do, while things are still smoking) has almost no effect on the early succession greenup, especially winter operations on frozen dirt and snow.
What the heck, the wood is dead, let the loggers high-grade half, cut down and leave a quarter, and leave plenty of decent snags, and you've reset the system properly for the NEXT forest.
As for long term employment from NREPA, that's a, um, er, ah, fib. The "employment" would mostly be one-shot, taxpayer-subsidized road- and infrastructure-obliteration projects, after which the area would be pretty much inaccessible for any kind of substantive vegetation management. These are inherently not self-SUSTAINING projects.
I think it is dishonest and unfair for NREPA supporters to demand zillions of taxpayer money to destroy not only infra that, yep, taxpayers helped buy, but to set up a deal in which that which is being "saved" is in reality being left to random, yet inevitable and complete, destruction.
So taxpayers
should pay dearly for unsustainable old growth logging that hurts their local environment and employs very few people. You repeated cries about beetles killing all the woods is all the more reason to protect the old growth we have left. But oh no skinner it's all those greens fault that the winter cold blasts are'nt lasting long enough to kill all the larvae. After all the green's control the weather, fire, the economy etc. at least according to you skinner.
Your such a joke in MT.
you beleive you have to "save" the woods from themselves.
In reality we need to save the woods from YOU SKINNER.
The statistic you quote of 80% of Montanan's supporting NREPA is pure poppycock. Maybe a more accurate number would be 80% of Montanan's don't understand how socially irresponsible NREPA actually would be.
Pass the soap.
I would beleive the natoion's leading ecological scientists over your opinion as to what's the socially responsible thing to do with MT's remaining roadless areas. We all know cutting our last old growth is'nt socially responsible. That's what tester is advocating we should. Also you lame attempt at insults merely expose your weak minded intellect and empty insults make you appear dumb.
Over 90% of the american public supports protecting all remaining roadless areas. Over 80% of MT residents supported the roadless rule which is essentially the same plan as NREPA.
Who's the obstrutionist here? Everytime you try put any more wilderness in the obviuosly lacking MT wilderness system you have all these right wing puff balls spouting the same lies and empty arguments. Everytime you try to close one eroding, seldom visited dirt road in the kootenai you have scores of folks claiming they're "trying to lock us out"
The truth is these right wingers are locking everyone else out who is'nt tickled by motorized recreation and Mtn Bikes.
3.5% of MT national forests are wilderness. If we protected ALL remaining roadless land in MT it would still only equal 11% of the national forest land in MT. California is already 15% wilderness despite the much higher population and I beleive red Idaho is over 11% wilderness. It's clear these people who are against any/all new wilderness in MT are the folks who are stubborn and unwillingly to make even a lopsided compromise in their favor. Their tilted so far to the right they actually think the tester logging bill is a Victory for wilderness advocates in MT.
3.5% of MT forests are wilderness
If all roadless protected it would = 11% of MT national forests.
These right wingers clearly want the entire forest for their exclusive use. The wilderness advocates simply want what little is left.
Suggesting that the roadless rule and NREPA's 7+ million acres of Wilderness in Montana is the 'essentially' the same thing is just more poppycock. It is not the same by a long shot.
Wilderness is not a religion nor is it a contest between states to see who has the highest percentage of the big "W". Does Montana deserve to protect roadless lands? Hell yes! Is a Wilderness designation the only way to offer protection? Hell no! Until everyone, left and right, can take a step or two toward the center to create permanent Congressional protection for Montana's spectacular landscapes, including new, socially responsible Wilderness, the drought will continue for another 25 years - or more.
This logging bill could be the best chance for Wilderness in your life time. Whatcha gonna do?
Keep the soap.
Denise, I think you're believeing your own propoganda. Hey dude, the military industrial timber baron complex has manipulated and fabricated a poll. And the Chamber of commerce is a lackey of the capitalist pig establishment.Will you publically state that your views represent the majority of Montanans?
It's a great democracy that passes laws that ensure that the minority viewpoint is heard and considered. It's a broken democracy that allows such laws to be used to force the minority viewpoint on the majority. NEPA litigation has nothing to do with the law. I read an EA for a 4,000 acre MPB salvage clearcut in Colorado that was 57 pages long. I read one on the Flathead that would salvage 1300 acres that ran to 200 pages. It's all about lawsuit proofing them. Theres no more litigation in Colorado.
Look, my point is that I think Montanans want more logging but they also want more wilderness. You can have both. I do believe I read a poll where a little over 50% of Montanans wanted more wilderness. Interesting. It "hints" at the number of Moderate environmentalists.
Bernard. The following is how much of the "forested acreage" was logged in the last 50 years. 17% of the Lolo, 5% of the Beaverhead Deerlodge, 7% of the Helena, 5% of the Gallatin, 25% of the Kootenai, 15% of the Flathead. What ticks me off is than none of the prominent enviros even knew these numbers. They never even bothered to look. They just "knew in their heart" that too much was logged. It shows a total disregard for perspective.
Theres know doubt theres less old growth. I always wondered why the Plum Creek "railroad sections" were located away from the railroad. In Wyoming the UP sections are 20 miles either side of the track-not so in Montana. So I drove through Thompson River and my God there used to be some big trees. Nice big low elevation Ponderosa. I have a theory, which I would like help with, that the railroads got the "big timber", and yes, they cut em down.
And yes, you live in a wood home too. Failure to awknoledge this only highlights the "take it for granted since I was little baby boomer" attitude that permeates radical enviros. Einstien used to do "thought experiments". The whole e=mc2 started with him imagining what it would be like to ride a beam of light. Well, heres a thought experiment. 250,000 acres of the Lolo were logged in 50 years. Thats enough to build every house in Montana today. It's also home range for what, a hundred Grizzlie bears. So, would you be willing to give up every home for one million people so 100 bears would have a home? Let him who has no sin cast the first stone.
MOst of the timber Montana exported since 1945 went to the midwest. The Northern pacific goes right to Minneapolis. Do you suppose Al Frankens house is made out of old growth larch?
I realize that my "soapbox" retoric contributes to the animosity in the West. It only serves to add to the problem. It's hard to resist not doing it, but It only highlights the depth of old animosity. Our anger is becoming relics fellas. Time is passing us by. It's OK to change the way we think about things. It's OK to admit the other guy has real concerns and goals. But theres enough for all. The biggest obstacle to that is not knowing how much of the pie there is. The spirit of the wild rings in all our hearts, but a little percentage based perspective is in order.
Little Jon must be running out of friends - that's pretty desperate!
I love how the libs just sit here and call names - like there's something wrong with being a "right winger"? At least we're not going to sit back while the government turns the US into Europe.
So i'm an extremist becuase I beleive 3.5% wilderness in MT forests is too little. Once again if ALL remaining roadless areas in MT were protected it would equal only 11% of the forests in MT.
That's a lopsided proportion that wilderness advocates are fighting for. No where did I claim I was against logging or other resource extraction, just not in roadless/wilderness. A lot of folks here dont want any new wilderness thats right wing extremism becuase they want exlusive use. I never claimed I wanted it all to be wilderness merely what is left of our wild country. If I werea left wing exremist I would be against all resource extraction and want wilderness for lands already logged/mined, roaded etc.
I spend my life in the outdoors and nothing matters more to me than seeing the last wild northern rockies forests left to be.
Your rants and raves about saving the forest from itslef are reminisencent of skinner. The woods will take care, but not if you whackos want to log every last wild acre. You right wingers turn this into a labeling game but really when you look at the facts ALL remaining roadless areas should remain roadless.
I am a moderate yet in MT i'm labelda left winger, I looking for the compromoise and expect our elected politicnas to live up to their campaing promises. Apparently the people of MT dont crae if tester lies in his campign about protecting ALL remaining roadless areas in MT. The people of MT call that progressive and groundbreaking legistslation. If you people want to award liars and crooked politicians go ahead your bed has already been made.
The alarmist bs about beetles is growing tiredsome. Mtn pine beetle larvae are not being killed becuase there are not enough consecutive sub zero days in the high country. Mtn pine beetles go through fluctuations as is happening in colorado. There have been documented cases of the beetles killing 90+% of lodgepole pine stands, yet the trees make a comeback eventually which I hope will be the case. This flase logic of "we gotta harvest the wood" before the fires" is not how things work out in the wild.
Notice how logger and the like make numerous assumptions about who I am and what I stand for. When did I ever say anything remotely close to no more logging yet logger acts as if i'm against all resource extraction. Right wingers like to stereotype anyone who disagress with them to justify their views despite local, national and global opposition. He acts like i've been decrying all logging and even claims i'm a hypocrite becuase I live in a wood house. Your so out of context logger it's laughable how about sticking to the issue and not placing broad stereotypes on anyone who disagrees with you.
Trail-
NREPA and the roadless rule are essentially the same thing. NREPA deals mostly with roadless however a few thousand acrs would deemed wildland recovery zones that are important lcorridor areas. Your use of poppycock and the like is really redundant and childish. What are you other ideas about how to portect the remaining roadless lands in MT. I'm all ears trail trail.
You can label me a left wing whacko but I know i'm not.
I'm not against logging, mining, 4 wheeling or biking. There should be at least 10% of the wild lands left for people who want a more primitive experience. Hunting and fishing are the best in wild country. If we ant these heritiges to continue MT will have to protect at least 10% of the old growth forest. People who dont want any new wilderness are extremists becuase they have so much and so little is protected. Compromise but not in tester's lying, deceitful fashion.
Last best place or just like every other place
If tester's bill passes MT is well on it's way to looking like colorado.
tester is a dem alos and look what he;s proposing. A moderate dem in MT would be considerd a right wing extremist elsewhere.
Woods rider-
WTF are u talking about watching the US turn into Europe. Where you been the last 8 years our country was robbed long ago by your boy bush and obama is continuing the same madness.
Hypocritical to the max these right wingers are.
Any bill that destroys the little roadless we left in MT in the name of protecting other areas is pure BS. I beleive in Lee Metcalf over Jon Tester.
Come on he LIED to the entire state and nation in order to get elected. "I promise to portect ALL remaining roadless areas" Jon Tester in front ofd his family. That was how he got Paul Richards to drop out of the race. Apparently when a dem. pledges to protect all remaining raodless it's moderate, but when you expect these politicians to live up to their promises your labled an extremist. Thats some curious logic MT.
But you cant fool all the people all the time.
Tester and the like you aint fooling me.
Leave our last roadless alone.
I love how some people only look at some rights. Only the brain-dead can jump to the conclusion that anyone who despises Obama loves Bush.
Bush=Fascist Big Gov't; Obama=Communist Big Gov't.
Look at history, the results are always the same (well, Stalin did edge out that other guy in sheer numbers dead, but...).
Oh and by the way, Wilderness is Big Government, you eco-freaks couldn't get your agenda through without it. NREPA makes it a crime to ride a bicycle on 24% of Idaho. You freaks must LOVE New York city-slickers like Carolyn McCarthy!
Here we go again - "NREPA and the roadless rule are essentially the same thing."
The millions and millions of acres in the roadless plan still allows bicycles. NREPA would close virtually all the alpine tails in every mountain range in Montana that have been quietly and respectfully ridden for decades by bicyclists. That, my man, is the poppycock - er, excuse me, the bullshit.
What exactly are you trying protect with a Wilderness designation; and from whom?
It seems that the highly touted grass-roots collaboration up on Rocky Mountain Front in the form of the Conservation Management Area could be an answer to A PIECE of the roadless puzzle. NREPA's 'Wilderness-or-nothing' mantra has doomed it from the beginning - that and having a New Yorker sponsor it.
The cycling community is a huge conservation asset to the Wilderness proponents when we are not put in an adversarial position over permanently protecting landscapes with bicycle banning Wilderness designations ONLY - especially when it comes to important trail systems that have been ridden for over 25 years without a problem. Companion designations combined with new socially responsible Wilderness areas seem like the most commonsense, and politically viable, path forward.
Woods Rider, Obama = Communism..lol
Get out of Idaho a little more, it's a big world and Europe isn't so bad. You should check it out someday.
You've already gone off the deep end.
http://www.hcn.org/wotr/setting-the-record-straight-on-wilderness?src=rc#1262485580
While the Blue Ribbon Coalition may claim to represent cyclists because bicycles have wheels, bicyclists remain quiet, non-motorized and low impact users distinctly independent and separate from any allegiance to or representation by a motorized umbrella group.
Keep the BS to yourself.
http://www.wildernessbicycling.org/
http://www.imba.com/resources/land_protection/stroll.pdf
A paraphrased section from the Wilderness Act seems like a good place to start my rant - my apologies in advance.
"An area of wilderness is further defined to mean . . . an area of
undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and
influence . . . and which . . . generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable.”
And
"An area of wilderness is further defined . . . [as] undeveloped Federal land . . . [containing] outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation. . . ."
So tell me how a wall tent city in the Bob Marshall Wilderness complete with wood fired hot tubs that were packed in by the animals that have worn the trails to shambles and graze their way across the scenic and hopefully-weed-free meadows while the dudes that paid BIG MONEY to recreate in and ‘experience’ the Wilderness via a commercial permit on our public lands sit in cantilevered canvas chairs listening to Mozart on their i-pods that were charged by the roll up 10 x 20 inch photovoltaic panel while sipping cappuccinos that were frothed by the steam generated in a fancy Italian contraption over a pressurized propane stove that was lit by a Bick lighter’s rotating spark wheel resulting in loosened bowels that were relieved in a pit latrine is in keeping the with Wilderness character of the area? But it is unacceptable to continue riding bicycles on trails that have ridden for years because the ‘mechanical presence’ destroys that same precious Wilderness character? And bicycles are perceived to stand in the way of new permanent land protection in the minds of those who subscribe to the Wilderness-or-nothing mind set / group think?
Excuse me? HELLO?
What exactly are we protecting with a Congressional Wilderness designation?
Bicyclists are not asking to get into Montana’s existing Wilderness areas – too much time, sweat and money have already been wasted in this pursuit. All that is being asked is to retain access to 74 miles of traditional trails that have been respectfully ridden for decades out of the 400 miles of trails to be closed under the FJRA -while still supporting over 95 percent of the proposed Wilderness and protection areas.
In case anyone missed it – here is a link to what was submitted as written testimony on behalf of Montana’s bicycle community at the December 17th hearing in question.
http://www.montanamountainbikealliance.com/static/S.1470IMBATestimonyFinal.pdf
To bring this back to the point of Bill’s initial posting – I was embarrassed and disappointed as a Montanan and a thinking human after viewing the Senate hearing of S1470. Baucus couldn’t stop talking and exit stage left fast enough and Tester’s interaction with Matthew Koehler left me wanting to push the rewind and erase buttons before trying again. Call me old fashioned but I want to respect my elected officials. Also the spin from our delegation and the invited proponents that stated the FJRA would be a major contribution to curb / manage / restore the beetle killed trees was misleading and greatly exaggerated at best. The FJRA, and for that matter, mankind, can do little in the face of 2 million acres of beetle killed trees in the B-D. To suggest that 10,000 acres of logging a year is going to put a dent in this disastrous natural cycle is pure folly – and to maintain that the proposed socialized logging is economically and ecologically sustainable is an entirely different issue.
Montana hasn’t had a Wilderness bill – er – Forest Jobs and Recreation Act – in 25 years and it seems that no one knows how to behave. The secret hand shake, cloak and dagger, back stabbing, smack talking, hidden agenda driven political dance has left me wanting a process more straight forward and above board – a little more grass roots – much less Industrial / Wilderness machine. Montana’s roadless lands are treasures that deserve to be managed as such. The question becomes what does that mean in terms of permanent protection and continued recreation and extraction access on our public lands?
It is interesting to note that Rehberg’s ongoing listening tour has brought out many voices that were not at the table at the genesis of the Partnership’s ‘collaboration’ or its aftermath, and combined with questions from the likes of Matthew Koehler – and Bernard Shakey and Skinner et al - we are reminded that S1470 is a work in progress and what was unveiled in July at RY lumber in Townsend is not what will be shat out Congress’ other end. The climate in D.C. is presently agreeable (to be rapidly shrinking after next election cycle) to pass a Wilderness bill – like it or not. We watch as the lumber and conservation ‘partners’ dig in their heels and say NO MORE GIVE or S1470 will lose their support. So what? FJRA is not in its final form or a done deal. It will only arrive when it is crafted into the truly collaborative piece of legislation Montana deserves – or not.
It is easy to stand on the periphery and throw stones – it is another to be part of the solution. Who knows what we could accomplish if shed the baggage of the past and all took a step or two toward the commonsense center? Little to lose, much to gain…
we got smithhammer and high trail touting tester and the blue ribbon real conservationists and prgressives in this blog....ROLF
smithhammer is so far up tester's as* he's doing the talking now
pathetic.
3.5% of MT forests are wilderness.
Even If ALL roadless were protected it would only equal 11% of the forests in MT. If 89% of the forests is not enough for the mtn. bikers then they are as unreasonable as the blue ribboners against all wilderness. I used to live on a forest that was 1.2 million acres with 23,000 acres of it being wilderness. Less than 1% of the forest was wilderness yet the bikers fought tooth and nail to eliminate that wilderness and continually violated the law by riding there. Real Mtn. bikers support wilderness especially in the obviuosly lacking MT wilderness system.
Regarding roadless
but as it is, there are exceptions to several Wilderness allowing certain activities that should be prohibited.
http://www.wildernessbicycling.org/bikesbelong/exceptions_in_wild.html
Just seems kind of hypocritical to me. What is the purpose of Wilderness and keeping areas roadless? Preserving the land, right? Refusing to compromise with a user group that wants the same thing seems kind of unreasonable to me.
http://www.americantrails.org/resources/fedland/BikeWilderness.html
if that means keeping the trickeys then so be it.
And Porterhouse’s ‘Real Mtn. bikers support wilderness especially in the obviously lacking MT wilderness system’ inspires me to paraphrase a section from the Wilderness Act before I start my rant.
"An area of wilderness is further defined to mean . . . an area of
undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and
influence . . . and which . . . generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable.”
And
"An area of wilderness is further defined . . . [as] undeveloped Federal land . . . [containing] outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation. . . ."
So tell me how a wall tent city in the Bob Marshall Wilderness complete with wood fired hot tubs that were packed in by the animals that have worn the trails to shambles and graze their way across the scenic and hopefully-weed-free meadows while the dudes that paid BIG MONEY to recreate in and ‘experience’ the Wilderness via a commercial permit on our public lands sit relaxing in cantilevered canvas chairs with bodies wrapped in zippered and velcro-ed eco-friendly plastic fuzziness while listening to Mozart on their i-pods and reviewing the days data on GPS' that were charged by the roll-up 10 x 20 inch photovoltaic panel while sipping cappuccinos that were frothed by the steam generated in a fancy Italian contraption over a pressurized propane stove that was lit by a Bick lighter’s rotating spark wheel resulting in loosened bowels that were relieved in a pit latrine is in keeping the with Wilderness character of the area? Oh - did I mention that fish were caught using one of those dreaded mechanical reels?
But it is unacceptable to continue riding bicycles on a small percentage of trails that have been ridden for decades because the ‘mechanical presence’ destroys that same precious Wilderness character? And this quiet, human powered and low impact mode of transport is perceived to stand in the way of new permanent land protection in the minds of those who subscribe to the Wilderness-or-nothing mind set / groupthink?
Excuse me? HELLO?
What exactly are we protecting with a Congressional Wilderness designation?
To bring this back to the point of Bill’s initial posting – I was embarrassed as a Montanan and U.S. citizen after viewing the Senate hearing of S 1470. Baucus couldn’t seem to string together a coherent statement or exit stage left fast enough and Tester’s interaction with Matthew Koehler left me wanting to push the rewind and erase buttons before viewing again. Call me old fashioned but I want to respect my elected officials.
Also the spin at the hearing that hinted the FJRA will significantly curb, manage and restore beetle killed trees was misleading and greatly exaggerated at best. The FJRA, and for that matter, mankind, can do little in the face of 2 million acres of beetle killed trees in the B-D. To suggest that the mandated logging and restoration of 10,000 acres a year is going to put a dent in this disastrous natural cycle is pure folly – and to maintain that the proposed socialized logging in the B-D is economically and ecologically sustainable is an entirely different issue.
Montana hasn’t had a Wilderness bill in 25 years and it seems that no one knows how to behave. The secret hand shake, back room, hidden agenda driven political dance that was the Partnership Plan has left me wanting a process more straight forward and above board – a little more grass roots – much less Industrial / Wilderness machine. Montana’s roadless lands are treasures that deserve to be managed as such. The question becomes what does that mean in terms of permanent protection and continued recreation and extraction access to these public lands?
It is interesting to note that Rehberg’s ongoing listening tour has brought out many voices that were not at the table at the genesis of the Partnership’s ‘collaboration’ or its aftermath, and combined with questions from the likes of Matthew Koehler – and Bernard Shakey and Skinner et al - we are reminded that S 1470 is a work in progress and what was unveiled in July at RY Lumber in Townsend is not what will be shat out Congress’ other end. The climate in D.C. is presently agreeable (to be rapidly diminished after next election cycle) to pass a Wilderness bill – like it or not. We watch as the lumber and conservation ‘partners’ dig in their heels and say NO MORE GIVE or S1470 will lose their support. So what? FJRA is not in its final form or a done deal. Still there is an opportunity to craft FJRA into the truly collaborative piece of legislation Montana deserves – or not. And still there is an opportunity for our elected officials to be LEADERS.
It is easy to stand on the periphery and throw stones – it is another to be part of the solution. Who knows what we could accomplish if shed the baggage of the past and all took a step or two toward the commonsense center? Little to lose, much to gain…
those outfitters suck with their lace and ipods; I dont agree with that.
Just cuz the right wingers like to pack in everything but the kitchen sink does'nt mean your trickeys should be allowed everywhere.
Grow up
Specifically, Koehler spent the summer and fall demonizing Tester and his staff by alleging that they are sell outs to industry and not working in good faith or in the best interests of the state.
Tester shouldn't have let it get under his skin. However, at some point I can understand Tester standing up for his staff. There is absolutely no evidence that Tester or his staff are acting in bad faith or are in cahoots with the timber industry. They are simply attempting to forge a piece of legislation that achieves goals for divergent interests. Koehler's allegations about the integrity and motives of Tester and his staff are not justified by any demonstrable facts.
When will the wacko, extremist, elitist, out to destroy capitalism, tree hugging, stone throwing, bunny sniffing, out of state funded enviros stop demonizing our poor mistreated senators?
Sorry, but Koehler and others continue to bring up specific criticisms of the bill and its drafting process which the Senator and his staff refuse to address. Instead, anyone who has problems with this bill is labeled an extremist and attempts are made to marginalize them.
Do yourself a favor, improve your mind a little, and run the numbers yourself. Bill and I are so far opposed on the wilderness issue it's not funny...but the fact remains that we both came up with the same numbers from different sources, which means they are more valid than Potterhemp's endless repetitions of his wrongly-contexted grab from some Greenie spin-house website.
As for Josh's point, the S-1470 process has been so tightly-scripted, so controlled, so one-way, it's amazing. I think the big Greens are afraid of an open forum because an open discussion would allow power centers to shift and other alliances to form -- just like was happening in the wake of the winter 2006 hearings. The mainstream groups knew they were about to lose primacy in the debate. Had Burns not been so desperate to fend off Abramoff, had Anderson et al not been so deep in debt, had the RINO Congress not been so mired in page scandals and whatnot, the "Partnership" could never have happened. And the partnership is truly an unholy alliance that has no staying power.
Let others at the table, and we'll see who ends up running the table. Won't be who's trying to stay in charge, fer shure.
Tester is caught flat out lying yet the people of MT continue to praise and follow him.
Have fun in new colorado err i mean Montana.
your as full of as much bs as tester.
Your the ultimate sheeple, defending obviuos bad ethics, bills etc.
Tester is a liar and you praise and follow him right off the cliff.
You cannot dispute that Jon Tester is a liar; he lied in fornt of his fmaily to get Paul Richards to drop out of the race. Now we're supposed to praise and trust him and boo at the folks that call him out on his bs.
sheeple sheeple sheeple
when will you learn?
THAT must have been interesting. You going to help him run against Tester?
bills drafted in a vacuum generally end up being trashed in washington. next time, make it an open process and maybe the resulting legislation won't be quite so riddled with mistakes.
mr rehberg and i seldom agree about anything but his assessment that not enough people were included in the process is correct. it should and probably will die in committee.
At least such stalwarts would get another 25 years of funding! Hmmm....
I am well acquainted with all but the youngest, who has risen fairly high up into the middle management of USFS.
I would personally attest to their honesty and they are all honorable men; but they are solidly in favor of farming the forests.
Four of the five would testify that clear cuts were good management; because of their fundamental trust in capitalism.
Anyone would be better than that blatant liar tester.
You really represent the climbing community well.
Excuse me for being an outdoor enthusiast that wants some new wilderness in Montana NOW!
I'm not willing to pay Koehler for another 25 years while user-created roads and snowmobiling routes continue to run rampant into all the presently undesignated backcountry, while mineral claims are filed or improved, while gas and oil exploration finds new pockets of "recoverable" reserves.
Why do you think Koehler and Montanans for Multiple Use (an mining industry front organization if there ever was one) have found themselves to be strange bedfellows with eachother in trying to kill the new wilderness legislation? Both spent the week trying to cozy up to Rehberg.
When the far left and the far right are both jumping in bed to oppose something, I'd say it's an indication that the people in the middle (aka the majority) must be doing something right.
have a backbone you sally. If we support poilitcians after they lie and support bills that regress tremendously any progress made in env. regulation then your just a sheeple.
Dont you get it they know people are starving for wilderness in MT, that's the only way they're gonna attempt some ludicrous bs bill like this.
Show em you have a backbone and they will have to listen
follow the herd and they will teat like you like what you are
sheeeeeple.
P.S. If you actually knew anything about this bill you would'nt conclude that tester's logging bill is a victory for wilderness.
Wake up you dumbass climber.
your head has been so far up tester's ass your doing the talking.
Tester is a liar and his bill is BS ....sorry you and your buddies who created this bill will have to suck it up.
We dont want it!
No wonder your interests don't get represented.
If by "doing something right" you mean applauding tester after he lied to get elected.
He promised to protect all remninig raodless areas in MT
now people who try to call him out for his lies and BS are chastised and called far left.
smithhammer your farrrr from correct about this one chump.
for months all you've posted in in support of testers logging bill despite numerous others poitinig out the all the BS in the bill.
you have a vested interest in it passing and you a spineless sheeple
Your attempt at slandering anyone who calls out tester are despicable.
Keep defending politicians after they LIe Lie Lie to get elected
thats what you guys in the middle do right?
pathetic.
I've read the bill front-to-back. Love it!
Who are you, Matt's wicked step-sister, or more??? Let me put this delicately... are you chugging his Kool-Aid? You must be a youngster if you're willing to wait 25 years for Montana Wilderness.
Personally, I'm going to try to Climb out of the nasty little exchange you've started here and talk about the issues. Just why would Koehler meet with Rehberg?
so you love the destruction of the last MT roadless areas, mandated logging(despite no economic market), repeal of numerous env. laws., dismantling of the forest service etc.
sorry dude i'd have to say you ARE a dumbass climber if you LOVE all that BS.
Whos drinking the kool aid here?
Sorry folks im just fuc*king fed up with the fact that Jon Tester lied about protecting roadless areas in order to get Paul Richards to drop out of the race. Then tester creates this BS bill that does the very thing he promised MT, the USA and Richards he would'nt do.
Destroy roadless areas. It's incredibly frustrating to see about no one trying to hold our politicians accountable for their promisies and then their lies.
Jon Tester lied to the people of MT
what do you folks think about all that?
I for one know i'm fuc*ing pissed.
The way I read the bill, there won't be any new roads in roadless areas. There won't be any new permanent roads anywhere. If you think there will be, tell me where.
In fact the bill will close about 50 miles of currently open roads and trails within the new Wilderness boundaries. This is something the motor heads can live with... can you?
NEPA, the ESA and grizzly and fish plans stay in place. The Forest Service still determines the location of the available timber base. Their current plan identifies over 300,000 acres in the Beaverhead-Deerlodge forest alone. We live with that whether Tester's bill passes or doesn't.
Market problems come and go. This will be an interesting 10 years to see what is produced "economically". There will certainly be a lot of small lumber and energy in the mix.
I would, however, like to see a reasoned response to the specifics that Climber just raised, for that is my interpretation of the real effects of this bill as well. And by a "reasoned response" I mean a talk about the actual impacts that this bill would allow for, rather than wild speculation about what "may" happen. Much of the opposition I've heard so far is just that.
And I still get back to one basic fact - over 600,000 acres of new Wilderness in Montana.
It doesn't do anything to change the legal environment, in fact TU claims it "leaves untouched" the right to sue; meaning the timber management won't come off thanks to endless litigation from the Koehler cadre;
It focuses on road obliteration and prohibits the construction of new roads except for temp roads, those being either snow roads or minimal sidecast prisms to be bladed back up;
It creates a million acres of wilderness over time, 660,000 unconditionally, right up front, while the other 300-something thousand will eventually have all non-wilderness activity squeezed off through administrative rollback;
It won't preclude a single square inch of other areas from future designation attempts;
Nor does it direct the USFS to log in "inventoried roadless areas."
And guess what? Ron Wyden is looking to deep six stewardship, first in eastern Oregon, eventually nationwide. If he wins, then the "industry" side of S-1470 is doomed.
So all you screamers are wrong.
This is a perfect bill for the incrementalist strategy now decided upon by the "environmental" partners in the wake of their failure to get it all with the "roadless initiative." The wilderness prize gets awarded up front while the non-wilderness interests all wind up under the bus sooner or later. What's not to like for you?
Oh, that's right, you haven't actually read the bill, or if you have, you can't understand all those big words. Sorry. Rave on.
No one even responds to the fact that Jon tester lied to the people of MT about protecting all remaining roadless areas. Even if Tester created a good bill (which he certainly did not) whatever happened to ACCOUNTABILITY?
Jon Tester also supports foreign mining in the Cabinets Mountains wilderness area, (despite local, multi-state opposition) if that says anything about the man.
The last version I saw of the bill the Sapphire Mtns roadless area was about cut in half from over 90,000 acres to 40,000 something acres as well as roadless areas in the Yaak valley on the Kootenai, not to mention roadless areas in the BHDL and the Lolo national forest etc. I'm all ears if any of that has changed.
(Smithhammer for anyone in the know has tirelesly campigned for Tester's logging bill and even admitted he has numerous friends who crafted the bill if not he himslef. He has supported the bill the entire time even during it's atrocious beginings. He obviously has a vested interest in the bill passing and is probally connected directly to tester.)
(Keep in mind we are only dealing with the inventoried roadless areas here because we should all know that when RARE was conducted large uniniventoried roadless sections were not included.)
And, for the record - yes, I have supported the bill since I first became aware of it. No apologies there.
You dedicate your life to journalism and how far have you come?
Not too far from the flathead or new west.
If anyone needs a dictionary or a thesaurus it's obviuosly you.
I've never read a word from you I did'nt know the definition of, however the context of your words (in your right wing crazy way ) mystifies all.
Congressman Rehberg's Helena office called a few weeks ago and wanted to know if Michael Garrity and I wanted to sit down with Congressman Rehberg and his staff to talk about S 1470.
The staffer who called said that as part of Rehberg's recent listening tour he was doing the town hall type meetings, but he was also doing other meetings with some folks to better understand the different perspectives on S1470.
Mike and I arrived at the Deer Lodge City Hall at 8 am on Friday, January 8th. The meeting started a little after 8 and continued until about 9 am.
In the room during the meeting were: Congressman Rehberg, Michael Garrity and myself. Also in the room during the entire meeting were: Three of Rehberg's aides, Tim Baker with the Montana Wilderness Association, Mary Anne Fraley, the mayor of Deer Lodge, and one of the Granite County Commissioners, who is a supporter of S1470 and actually traveled to the DC hearing last month.
Far as I could tell, Congressman Rehberg and his staff seemed genuinely interested in learning more about our specific concerns with S1470 and I certainly thanked him and his staff for the opportunity to share our views.
I assume that this meeting was listed publicly on Congressman Rehberg's schedule, which is at his website here: http://rehberg.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=7§iontree=2,7
Looks like the schedule doesn't go back to last Friday, but I assume our January 8th meeting was listed there and that Rehberg's staff have a record of this and would be happy to share it with anyone if contacted.
Also, interesting to note that MWA's Baker wrote me this morning and stated, "Hi Matthew -- Denny announced early in the week that he was meeting with lots of folks during the week and that all of the sessions were open to the public. I met with Denny several times during the week and at several of those meetings there were opponents. So, it seemed okay to me to sit in on some of the opponents meetings, which I did (including yours). Thanks, Tim"
So there you have it. Those are the facts concerning last Friday's meeting. I'll let the facts speak for themselves and let everyone come to their own conclusion regarding a few supporters of S1470 who have made anonymous allegations about my supposed "private" meeting with Congressman Rehberg.
Let me state that it's quite unfortunate that the vast majority of anonymous commenters who support S1470 would rather continue their "shoot the messager" strategy and spread false allegations than, say, have a discussion about what S1470, as written, would actually do. Can we please, all of us, no matter if you support the bill, oppose the bill or are on the fence, agree to move this discussion forward and focus on the details and language contained within the bill? After all, that's certainly what the US Senate's Energy and Natural Resources Committee will be doing as they pour over testimony and consider the merits of the bill.
Regular NewWest readers will notice that the vast majority of these anonymous commenters supporting S1470 never seem to want to talk about the serious concerns with the bill expressed from many quarters including: Undersecretary Sherman, the Forest Service, the Obama Administration, Senator Bingaman, the Last Best Place Wildlands Campaign, Beaverhead County Commissioners, Defender of Wildlife, PEER and the Sierra Club.
Heck, even recently, Headwaters Montana, an organization that initially supported the bill, wrote Sen. Tester asking that he "modify or amend some parts of the legislation that effect nation-wide National Forest and wilderness policy," including many of the same concerning parts of S1470 brought up by the Forest Service and Last Best Place Wildlands Campaign at the hearing.
Finally, here are some of the specifics of what Under Secretary Sherman said at the December 17, 2009 hearing. No matter how you feel about S1470, I would request that people ask themselves, "Why would the US Forest Service express these concerns about S1470 if there was nothing to be concerned about?" As you can clearly see, these are hardly insignificant, trivial concerns coming from the top Forest Service official in America.
From Under Secretary Harris Sherman regarding S1470:
"If the Committee decides to go forward with a bill, we would urge you to first, alter or remove the highly specific timber supply requirements, which in our view are not reasonable or achievable.
Secondly, we like to urge you to amend the National Environmental Policy Act related provisions, which in our view are flawed and are legally vulnerable.
Thirdly, we would urge you to consider the budgetary implications to meet the bill's requirements. If we were to go forward with S1470 it would require far greater resources to do that and it will require us to draw these monies from forests within Region One or from other Regions."
"'The levels of mechanical treatment that are called for in S1470 are likely unachievable and perhaps unsustainable."
"There is the likelihood that if Congress were to move forward and pass legislation such as we are talking about today, that other regions will want to do so similarly. Now, if that happens, my concern is that there will be somewhat of a balkanization that occurs between the different regions in the country. Those who are first in may get funded and those who come later may find there are less funds available. There will be certain 'haves' and 'have nots' that result from this process. Then in someways there is no longer a true national review, an effort to sift out what priorities ought to exist across the country."
Looking at the maps online, it doesn't appear there is any significant release of the Sapphire WSA contemplated under the legislation... about 53,000 acres become designated on the BH-Deerlodge. Looking at the bill, the portion of the Sapphire WSA found on the adjoining Bitterroot Forest isn't dealt with at all by the legislation (p. 62). I don't have time to chase down your other allegations.
You need to be more than "all ears" listening to the rumor mill. Use your eyes to look at the maps, and engage your brain to read and interpret the written words of the bill. Then issue a complaint if you still have one.
Matt: sounds like good face time with the esteemed Congressman. Why did you tell him you are willing to kick the Montana wilderness designation can 25 years down the road?
obviuosly you cant grasp or dont care about the more nefarious aspects of tester's logging bill. The mandated timber harvests, removal of env. laws and regulations and dismantling of the forest service. I'm not convinced tester's logging bill does not allow logging in roadless areas. After all last map I viewed had yellow areas dominating the mpa which are suitalbe for timber harvest.
These yellow areas overlapped roadless areas. Try actually reading other's comments instead of dismissing all their points.
The roadless issue is my main gripe with the bill however that just scratches the surface of the problems I and numerous others have with this bill.
How about you use "your eyes" to actually read why people have problems with this bill instead of just proclaimimng "I love it" and ignoring all valid points and issues.
No, the Bill does not "direct" the B-D NF to log Roadless Areas, nor does it "direct" the FS to log any particular piece of ground. As a matter of fact, the Tester Bill does not recognize Roadless Areas on its map at all. The map with the Bill does not depict Roadless Areas; it washes them into the category of open to logging.
Tester's Bill reduces wildland protection for far more wildlands than it protects. And some would lose any future consideration as Wilderness, susch as the West Pioneer WSA where motorized wreckcreation would be permanently installed, no matter the damage to wildlife or watersheds.
It is the educated conclusion of some grassroots conservation groups that live close to the areas involved, (those groups that actually get down to work protecting these wildland areas one threat at a time) that we are better off without Tester's Bill in regards to wildland protection. We have a very good track record - having about the same amount of wildlands in these areas now as we did 20 years ago, having the benefit of some court precedent regarding better management of WSAs and the help of the relatively recent Roadless Initiatives.
The Tester Bill, with the help of MWA, MWF and MT TU, takes our tools away,
As Senator Max Baucus says, "It allows thousands of acres of land, currently managed as wilderness, to be used for recreation and timber harvest." (See Baucus standard reply to comments on Tester Bill).
If one of the insider folks in the know from Tester's office, MWA, MWF or MT TU would come out of the bushes and address/clarify some facts rather than just lay low and snipe at critics maybe we could get an informed public dialogue going. I would bet some of them read this discussion/spitball fight. Brave up and let us know about your deal. Please use your given name to gain credibility.
Wake up people!
And he is quite accomplished in talking about himself. And willing, apparently, to discuss his meeting with Congressman Rehberg, as we can see from his post above. But he failed to discuss a fairly central point he made in that meeting, which I'll now repeat for the third time.
Please explain your thinking, Matt, when you told Congressman Rehberg you were willing to wait another 25 years for a wilderness bill for Montana.
But where did you get your information about Koehler being willing to wait 25 years for a wilderness bill?
According to my calculations, he has more like 30 years until he hits retirement age, which makes that 30 years a more realistic figure. Plus I believe his luxury cabin is on a 30-year mortgage, which he recently refinanced after engineering the recent interest rate dip. So 25 years just doesn't make any sense.
Please clarify, and provide a source for your 25-year comment.
He doesn't need someone else to explain for him, or deny what he said. Or does he?
This seems like an odd thing for a self-proclaimed "conservationist" to publicly say. Is there more to this statement that places it in context? I think that given Mr. Koehler's ubiquitous presence on NW, an explanation is completely relevant to the topic at hand, and to positions he continues to maintain on here.
And spare me the sanctimonious, "you people are just trying to shoot the messenger" drivel. A fairly easy case could be presented of you doing exactly the same.
That said, your allegation that "I also hear Koehler told Rehberg he'd be willing to wait another 25 years for another wilderness bill in Montana" is false and taken completely out of context. Furthermore, your allegation that I would even say something like that in order to get "another 25 years of funding" is as false as it is laughable to anyone who's been following my advocacy over the past 15 years.
I can only assume that you make these anonymous allegations to further your attempts to discredit me, which I guess you believe will increase the chances that S1470 passes as written. Can you please stop that? Instead can you agree to focus on what's in the bill and the policy implications it would bring about, not just for public lands here in Montana, but national forest lands across America?
As I recall, towards the end of the meeting, Congressman Rehberg asked Garrity and I something along the lines of (and this is not a direct quote): "What's your response to the thought that we should just pass this bill as written in order to get 600,000 acres of Wilderness designated in Montana, especially because we may have to wait another 25 years to any more Wilderness designated?"
Mike and I both said something along the lines of (Again, not a direct quote, but these are the issues we raised to answer Congressman Rehberg's question):
The concerning aspects of S1470, as currently written, far outweigh the benefits of protecting 600,000 acres of as Wilderness. This is especially true considering that the concerning aspects of S1470, which are opposed by the Forest Service, White House, our Last Best Place Wildlands Campaign and a host of other organization and citizens from Montana and around the country, would have such a profoundly negative impact on America's public lands legacy, not just hear in Montana, but national forest lands everywhere.
Specifically, we told Congressman Rehberg that the mandated logging provisions contained in S1470 are unprecedented and represent an unscientific override of current forest planning. The notion that Congress should legislate logging levels on public lands is antithetical to the National Forest Management Act and irresponsible given that lumber consumption in America has dropped 55%. We pointed out that the Forest Serviced called these mandated logging levels on the BHDL "likely unachievable and perhaps unsustainable" and the Forest Service asked the Committee to "alter or remove" this provision.
We told Congressman Rehberg that he bill undermines the National Environmental Policy Act by imposing an unrealistic and arbitrary 12-month NEPA timeline, which would preclude the Forest Service from accurately assessing environmental impacts, essentially setting the agency up for failure. We pointed out that the Forest Service stated these NEPA provisions "are flawed and are legally vulnerable."
We mentioned that S1470 would localize the management of our national forests, opening the floodgates for mandated logging, mining, grazing, drilling or road building for national public lands elsewhere. This could fragment the entire National Forest system and ignores the basic principle that national public lands belong equally to all Americans. The numerous unfunded mandates included in S1470 could cost US taxpayers well over $100 million and raises the very real potential for other National Forests to have their funds raided and transferred to these forests. We pointed out that the Forest Service referred to this as "balkanization" and creating a system of 'haves' and 'have nots' when it comes to national forest funding.
So, yes, Climber (and now Smithhammer) in the context of all very real concerns expressed about S1470 from many diverse quarters (which supporters of S1470 just ignore, fail to acknowledge and fail to even understand), we don't believe getting 600,000 acres of Wilderness designated in Montana is worth compromising the integrity of the entire national forest system across the country.
If the drafters of S1470 would have put forth a bill calling for 600,000 acres of Wilderness designation in Montana that was free of all the concerning, sloppy, precedent-setting baggage that's currently in the bill (see examples above) I would have supported that bill from the get-go. I have no problem with smaller Wilderness bills passing. However, as I keep saying, I and many others do have a problem with some people thinking that getting 600,000 acres of Wilderness in Montana is worth changing and compromising our entire federal public lands legacy, as S1470 as currently written clearly would do. Thanks.
You're getting exceedingly tiresome, but let me lay out a few things;
You continue to claim that S. 1470 was produced in "secret."
This is absolutely false, and you know it. It's been repeatedly pointed out to you that this was not the case, by many different people. Instead, you choose to believe, and to continue to claim, otherwise. Is it such a stretch to imagine that it is exactly this sort of behavior which has kept you from being taken seriously, or having a seat at the table?
You've also said previously claimed that this bill only protects "rock and ice wilderness."
You've thankfully dropped this talking point from your latest missives, primarily I have to assume, because it is also undeniably false and you've been called on it. It is, however, exactly the sort of claim one would expect from someone who does most of their "conservation" work behind a computer in Missoula rather than the field.
And now you're claiming that S. 1470 would "compromise our entire federal public lands legacy."
Also false, and more of the kind of alarmist bull that has likely kept you out of the process all along.
Despite your claims that you want to sincerely have substantive conversations about this bill, the reality is that there is no such thing with you. There are only, one-sided, uncompromising, 3,000 word post/bludgeons from you in which there is no real room for discussion or true debate, in which your opinions are already fixed in stone. You have made your position abundantly clear, over and over and over. I see no way in which those opinions could possibly be changed. Which, again, I would have to say is probably a large part of the reason why you're feel excluded. Think about it.
I would also suggest that you think long and hard about why Trout Unlimited, the Montana Wilderness Association, the National Wildlife Federation, the Greater Yellowstone Coalition, The Wilderness Society, American Rivers, the Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership and many other major players in the conservation scene, both within Montana and on the national level, are supporting this, while you continue to whine from the sidelines. Do you sincerely believe that all of these conservation organizations are in some sort of nefarious collaboration to "compromise our entire federal public lands legacy?" And that you know something they don't?
Ultimately, the fact that you would view the defeat of this bill as a personal "victory" speaks volumes.
While I applaud your ability to Google, you are incorrect in stating that I work for NOLS. I haven't worked for them for years. Just for the record.
I have nothing to hide, and have always posted under my real name on New West. I stand by everything I've posted here.
However, I also find it completely unprofessional (and vindictive and sleazy) that you would dig up my my personal e-mail address and post it on a public forum like this without my permission. Feel free to contact me Matthew, but I would request that the moderators of this forum please remove my personal e-mail, where it has been posted without my permission and which I find to be a deliberate invasion of my privacy.
Again, actions such as this speak volumes, Matt.
---------------
Hello Bruce Smithhammer;
Could you please do me a favor and give me a call when you get a chance to talk sometime this week? I assume your fly fishing and the NOLS guiding might be a little slow this time of the year, so hopefully you'll have a few minutes to spare.
I'd like to speak with you directly about S1470, especially since it appears to me as if this comment section may be a poor venue to have a discussion with you about the merits and concerns associated with S1470. I have tried, to the best of my ability, to professionally share with you the concerns regarding S1470 coming from many quarters, including the US Forest Service, the Last Best Place Wildlands Campaign, Defender of Wildlife, PEER, NRDC, the Sierra Club and many others.
However, it appears as if you just ignore, fail to acknowledge and even fail to understand these concerns when they are expressed in this on-line forum, so I'm hoping that a conversation over the phone would work better. I'm also more than willing to listen to your thoughts regarding your support of S1470.
Since you have made it a regular practice here at NewWest to comment about my intentions and integrity I hope you will at least grant me the courtesy of fulfilling my sincere request for a phone conversation. Perhaps next time my wife and I are visiting our friends in the Victor, Idaho area we could meet face-to-face, but for the time being a phone conservation would be great and much appreciated.
Sincerely,
Matthew Koehler
WildWest Institute
406-396-0321
"You're getting exceedingly tiresome..."
and
"There are only, one-sided, uncompromising, 3,000 word post/bludgeons from you in which there is no real room for discussion or true debate, in which your opinions are already fixed in stone."
A key difference is that Koelher has the BALLS to use his real name. And since you obviously don't, your attacks about him being "someone who does most of their "conservation" work behind a computer in Missoula rather than the field" are pathetic.
(and by the way, Organ Donor is my name. It's on my driver's license)
And Smitty (and Climber), you can't have it both ways. If Koehler is whining on the sidelines than what was he doing in Washington? Were you in Washington? Why not? Are you pissed that you weren't invited?
And if he deserves to be on the sidelines, then what was he doing in DC? Perhaps you're the one on the sidelines.
If Koehler is whining on the sidelines and excluded from the process, then why are you so concerned about what he thinks?
How can you claim that he's been "kept out of the process all along" while at the same time take issue with his claim that the bill's drafting was exclusionary?
If you make fun of him being excluded, as some fringe element, does that mean you can't blame him when the bill dies?
Instead of sobbing about complaining about Koehler, why don't you complain about the issues the Forest Service is taking with the bill, which happen to be very similar to what Koehler has voiced.
And finally, why don't you stop pissing and moaning about that fringe element Matt Koehler and actually say something about the bill?
Regardless, this has sunk to a new, and embarrassing, low. One that I have no further need to be a part of. Nothing will be solved in silly forums like this anyway. Best of luck defeating over 600,000 acres of new wilderness, you passionate conservationists.
but that pun is just way too easy and obviuos.